UCSF v. Harvard (Thoughts anyone?)

[GoinBack2Cali?]

Just curious.

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[Mr. Tee]

UCSF. Better lifestyle.

 

[lord_jeebus]

UCSF so you can replace your ? with a !

(or a . if you want to be modest about it)

 

[wannaGETinDR]

i wanna know too. I am having a hard time deciding!

 

[mrs.smith]

UCSF hands down, and not just 'cuz I'm a Yalie.

 

[LADoc00]

Harvard for the alum network. The small difference in tuition is nothing compared to the potential HMS connections in the long run. I decided against a UC med school and instead went to a top ranked private and have never regretted it.

The lifestyle of UCSF vs. HMS will be the same: one of POVERTY.

 

[BellyDancingDoc]

cheaper + better lifestyle + better weather + increased shot at Cali residency + equal prestige to the alternative = UCSF

 

[baylormed]

The lifestyle of UCSF vs. HMS will be the same: one of POVERTY.

If by poverty you mean being able to pay for medical school and buy books, pay for an apartment (however small), buy food (even if I don't eat steak every day), and drive a car (whatever old)....okay, I can live with it.

Seriously, ever been in a thirld world country?

(Don't take this as an offense, I'm just saying that sometimes the American standards of poverty are the lifestyles of a millionaire when you compare it to people who never made it to school and have to beg for money to eat at least once a day).

 

[wannaGETinDR]

If by poverty you mean being able to pay for medical school and buy books, pay for an apartment (however small), buy food (even if I don't eat steak every day), and drive a car (whatever old)....okay, I can live with it.

Seriously, ever been in a thirld world country?

(Don't take this as an offense, I'm just saying that sometimes the American standards of poverty are the lifestyles of a millionaire when you compare it to people who never made it to school and have to beg for money to eat at least once a day).

Oh get off your high horse......

 

[baylormed]

Oh get off your high horse......

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot some people consider a comment as an insult.

 

[LADoc00]

If by poverty you mean being able to pay for medical school and buy books, pay for an apartment (however small), buy food (even if I don't eat steak every day), and drive a car (whatever old)....okay, I can live with it.

Seriously, ever been in a thirld world country?

(Don't take this as an offense, I'm just saying that sometimes the American standards of poverty are the lifestyles of a millionaire when you compare it to people who never made it to school and have to beg for money to eat at least once a day).

Dont take it offense at this lil economics lession BUT by poverty I mean taking out over 100K in educational loans, buying an overvalued house on a 500K mortgage and a car loan for a $50K sedan. By real dollars, many Americans have a negative net worth, less than the so called begging third worlders you claim to know so much about...

In conclusion I have no clue as to what you are talking about in general because the OP didnt ask the ?: UCSF vs. Angola University.

Sheesh, go save a tree or a whale or whatever you people do when you dont post here.

 

[baylormed]

Dont take it offense at this lil economics lession BUT by poverty I mean taking out over 100K in educational loans, buying an overvalued house on a 500K mortgage and a car loan for a $50K sedan. By real dollars, many Americans have a negative net worth, less than the so called begging third worlders you claim to know so much about...

In conclusion I have no clue as to what you are talking about in general because the OP didnt ask the ?: UCSF vs. Angola University.

Sheesh, go save a tree or a whale or whatever you people do when you dont post here.

Gosh, you find such an offense in my comment. I wonder why?
Oh, yes, and I calim to know about them because I lived in such a country for 15 years.

And I don't plan on buying an overvalued house (especially not a 500K mortgage), let alone a 50K car, while in medical school.

Oh, and what the hell's wrong with saving a whale?? What do you have against trees and whales?

 

[BozoSparky]

Just curious.

hey, you've been to both...what's your gut say?

both schools are great!

 

[lord_jeebus]

increased shot at Cali residency

This one I don't agree with. The laws of physics are universal; the H-bomb is just as explosive on the west coast.

 

[Smokey]

I am in awful situation. I chose to enter a profession that I am guaranteed to make six figures. I much rather live in a country where I have no hope of making a decent life for my family. Hey, at least I'm not in debt.

Come one people, perspective.

 

[baylormed]

I am in awful situation. I chose to enter a profession that I am guaranteed to make six figures. I much rather live in a country where I have no hope of making a decent life for my family. Hey, at least I'm not in debt.

Come one people, perspective.

Exactly. I don't get the complaining either.

 

[Towelie]

Harvard is better than UCSF in every conceivable way, other than location. Harvard has two hospitals that are each individually better than UCSF's. HMS is substantially stronger in virtually every area of medical research. HMS has access to a more diverse patient population. And HMS students match MUCH better than UCSF students.

If you get into both, go to HMS.

 

[wannaGETinDR]

Harvard is better than UCSF in every conceivable way, other than location. Harvard has two hospitals that are each individually better than UCSF's. HMS is substantially stronger in virtually every area of medical research. HMS has access to a more diverse patient population. And HMS students match MUCH better than UCSF students.

If you get into both, go to HMS.

harvard also has many many many more GUNNERS!

 

[BellyDancingDoc]

This one I don't agree with. The laws of physics are universal; the H-bomb is just as explosive on the east coast.

I'm pretty sure that CA residencies have a stated preference for CA residents much like the CA med schools do. Thus, since UCSF = H-bomb in terms of medical school presitige, I maintain that UCSF > H-bomb for CA matching.

 

[Towelie]

I'm pretty sure that CA residencies have a stated preference for CA residents much like the CA med schools do. Thus, since UCSF = H-bomb in terms of medical school presitige, I maintain that UCSF > H-bomb for CA matching.

Wrong. Look at Harvard and UCSF's match list, and compare for prestigious California residencies. Harvard has the edge.

 

[honker]

Harvard is better than UCSF in every conceivable way, other than location. Harvard has two hospitals that are each individually better than UCSF's. HMS is substantially stronger in virtually every area of medical research. HMS has access to a more diverse patient population. And HMS students match MUCH better than UCSF students.

If you get into both, go to HMS.

Another vote for drinking the Harvard kool-aid.
Where do you get the idea of greater diversity in Boston compared to San Francisco? That statement alone shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. The only statement that is accurate is in regards to the hospitals. Research is paramount at both institutions, and considering that UCSF is a public med school, it is actually quite strong in research compared to Harvard.

 

[Celeritus]

For me, this type of comparison is always nested in a larger question: how relevent is where one did their medical training later in one's career?

The reason I bring this up is because it would seem that in general (especially outside academic circles), the Harvard "brand" is accorded more respect, or is at least more ubiquitious in society. Thus, if one wanted to pursue non-academic medical career (anything from private practice to consulting), the Harvard brand (and perhaps, the connections the institution has to get one to such places) may have the edge.

But again, this is nested in the larger question of whether the location of one's medical training means anything after one's residency, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

For me, this type of comparison is always nested in a larger question: how relevent is where one did their medical training later in one's career?

The reason I bring this up is because it would seem that in general (especially outside academic circles), the Harvard "brand" is accorded more respect, or is at least more ubiquitious in society. Thus, if one wanted to pursue non-academic medical career (anything from private practice to consulting), the Harvard brand (and perhaps, the connections the institution has to get one to such places) may have the edge.

But again, this is nested in the larger question of whether the location of one's medical training means anything after one's residency, etc.

Thoughts?

Ya you have to agree with this... I mean look at it like this. Which would have more of a "wow"-factor: 1) I go to baylor college of medicine or 2) I go to Cornell for med school.

PS: I know u all know what these two schools are ranked so i wont bother mentioning it

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Ya you have to agree with this... I mean look at it like this. Which would have more of a "wow"-factor: 1) I go to baylor college of medicine or 2) I go to Cornell for med school.

PS: I know u all know what these two schools are ranked so i wont bother mentioning it

except for the fact that we all know that Cornell is the least of the Ivies.

 

[szhao]

HMS sounds better lol

 

[byong_soo]

harvard!

 

[Dr_Berk]

Harvard.

What a miserable situation you must be in if you have to choose between these two . Congrats if you got accepted to either.

 

[crimsonkid85]

harvard. the reputation, networking, research that goes with it will open many many doors for you, in ways and fields that extend far beyond medicine.

 

[foofish]

And I don't plan on buying an overvalued house (especially not a 500K mortgage), let alone a 50K car, while in medical school.

Ha, exactly! They do sell cars--including reputable, nice, new cars--for under 50K.

A family friend in finance was talking about how, in his experience, doctors are the most likely to enter bankrupcy/destroy their credit, and it's because people graduate from med school and decide it's time to live the life of the rich and famous in complete ignorance to reality. I didn't believe him at the time that people really are so dumb, but, well....

As to the original question, Harvard, but that's because it's the better fit for me in terms of location/training hospitals/etc. Actually, any school associated with the Brigham and MGH would win my vote, so it's not just a Haaahvahd thing. And legitimate or not, if you're baking on the prestige factor, on the east coast no one is going to put UCSF and Harvard in the same category.

 

[DASTERN]

Wrong. Look at Harvard and UCSF's match list, and compare for prestigious California residencies. Harvard has the edge.

where can I get a copy of Harvard's match list?

 

[Orthodoc40]

Harvard is better than UCSF in every conceivable way, other than location. Harvard has two hospitals that are each individually better than UCSF's. HMS is substantially stronger in virtually every area of medical research. HMS has access to a more diverse patient population. And HMS students match MUCH better than UCSF students.

If you get into both, go to HMS.

I doubt HMS is 'better in every conceivable way'.
Students there basically teach themselves b/c the faculty doesn't have time for them. They certainly don't have a 'more diverse patient population'.
And they have more than 2 hospitals... (unless you're just saying that only 2 of them are better than UCSF's).

They're pretty much equal schools so go where you'll be happiest & in less debt at the end of it all. Are you an east coaster or a west coaster?

 

[NervousNed]

For everyone who has applied to medschool, yes we know the two schools are great and almost equal, but about 98 percent of the population that doesnt know much about medical schools will not really care too much if you went to ucsf, if you go to harvard, and say , aho ho ho, i went to HARVARD for medical school, everyones eyes will light up,and instantly everyones parents will want to rub you and kiss you, dont be silly, we're not talking about what school has a better education or oppurtunities afterward, because both have that, we're talking about at face value, you will have immense respect from ANYONE in the united states with a degree from harvard, when patients are seeking out doctors, and they find out you attended harvard, they will undoubtedly choose going to you over many, im not saying its right im sayin what will happen, do not be foolish, go to harvard, on a side note i havent been accepted to either school so i am not bias

 

[Towelie]

I doubt HMS is 'better in every conceivable way'.
Students there basically teach themselves b/c the faculty doesn't have time for them. They certainly don't have a 'more diverse patient population'.
And they have more than 2 hospitals... (unless you're just saying that only 2 of them are better than UCSF's).

They're pretty much equal schools so go where you'll be happiest & in less debt at the end of it all. Are you an east coaster or a west coaster?

Your first statement is false--if anything, the faculty at Harvard seem to be more accessible than other schools that I have visited.

Your second statement is false--Harvard has a much larger hospital system than UCSF, and thus a more diverse patient population.

As for your third statement, you are correct that HMS has more than 2 hospitals. What I wrote was that HMS has 2 hospitals--BWH and MGH--that are INDIVIDUALLY as good or better than UCSF's entire hospital system.

They are not equal schools. HMS has a better match list, better research, better hospitals, and better students. UCSF has location, and that's about it.

 

[ltrain]

In terms of diverse patient populations, the thing that stands out about UCSF is that it's the only med school in SF...its affiliates are responsible for providing the majority of medical care in SF.

Harvard has a ton of affiliates, including, yes, MGH and the Brigham. But in terms of the spectrum of patients it attracts in Boston, it's definitely skewed by socioeconomic status. Almost the entire homeless population, for example, is seen at Boston Medical Center, BU's hospital.

Also, when I visited UCSF, I was struck by how focused they were on teaching. I haven't visited Harvard yet, so they may have the same vibe.

But I have worked at MGH for the past 3 years and what Harvard does have, more than anywhere else, is resources. In terms of "name brand" I don't think there's a big difference for your medical career, especially in academia. But if you want to do something cool and self-directed, it can almost be guaranteed you'll find funding easily at Harvard. They just have way too much money.

Re: match lists. Yes, if you want to do a residency at a Harvard hospital, you should go to Harvard. Aside from that, you're going to be able to do whatever you want coming out of either of these schools.

Tough choice, but you really can't make a wrong one.

 

[GoinBack2Cali?]

What is the difference in debt for graduates?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Harvard, easily.

The Harvard name gets you farther for residency.

 

[pyrois]

Your first statement is false--if anything, the faculty at Harvard seem to be more accessible than other schools that I have visited.

Your second statement is false--Harvard has a much larger hospital system than UCSF, and thus a more diverse patient population.

As for your third statement, you are correct that HMS has more than 2 hospitals. What I wrote was that HMS has 2 hospitals--BWH and MGH--that are INDIVIDUALLY as good or better than UCSF's entire hospital system.

They are not equal schools. HMS has a better match list, better research, better hospitals, and better students. UCSF has location, and that's about it.

You first statement is speculative. Visiting a medical school is much different than attending one.

Your second statement makes no sense. Size != Diversity. Example? Take the smallest Bay Area hospital to a large hospital in the mid-west that doesn't regularly serve international patients, and you'll find far greater diversity in the small hospital.

As for your third statement, it depends on what the OP's goals are whether the hospitals are "better." Furthermore, the hospital systems matter far less in medical school than in residency. In terms of actual experience you will receive, UCSF's hospital system will give you more opportunities since they are overworked and understaffed as opposed to the occasional "oh, let the MS1 put on my glove today" at the properly staffed HMS hospitals.

 

[pyrois]

What is the difference in debt for graduates?

If you're poor (little savings/sub 100k/year gross adjusted) Harvard ends up being the same price as UCSF. If you're rich, Harvard ends up being $40,000 more/year.

 

[Angelique]

What is the difference in debt for graduates?

GoinBack2Cali?, aren't you MSTP? Don't you get a stipend @ UCSF? Here are the numbers for just MD candidates:

According to US News, Harvard graduates have an average debt of $102,625 while UCSF graduates have an average debt of $76,573. The difference is $26,052.

However, the total cost of attendance for Harvard for '06-'07 is $60,880, including a base tuition of $38,600. The total cost of attendance for UCSF for '06-'07 is $43,191, including a base tuition of $22,854. The difference is $15,309 per year.

Over a four year period, Harvard estimates its total cost of attendance as $252,680 (Source: accepted student's packet). UCSF estimates its total cost of attendance as $188,899 (Source: see below)

I'm not sure if this helps, because aid packages are so individualized. Hopefully we can all make wiser decisions once financial aid comes around.

Sources:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/webextras/brief/sb_med_debt_brief.php
http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=costs
http://saawww.ucsf.edu/financial/general/budget.htm

 

[GoinBack2Cali?]

GoinBack2Cali?, aren't you MSTP? Don't you get a stipend @ UCSF?

I got in MSTP at UCSF, MD only at Harvard. Was thinking about trying to get in 2nd cycle at Harvard, but if I was rejected, considering how much debt I would have after 4 yrs at Harvard.

 

[stixx]

Dont take it offense at this lil economics lession BUT by poverty I mean taking out over 100K in educational loans, buying an overvalued house on a 500K mortgage and a car loan for a $50K sedan. By real dollars, many Americans have a negative net worth, less than the so called begging third worlders you claim to know so much about...

In conclusion I have no clue as to what you are talking about in general because the OP didnt ask the ?: UCSF vs. Angola University.

If someone buys a house and a car while still in med school saddling 100k in loans..........that gets ZERO sympathy from me.

Although I understand your point about debt, those are luxuries you don't need as a student. You chose to go to med school, you should've chosen to postpone all those things that all your friends in their 20s are doing, sorry.

 

[GoinBack2Cali?]

Just curious.

No longer "just curious," has become reality. ****ing crazy!!! Would I be an idiot to turn down a funded MSTP slot to go to Harvard MD spot without funding?

 

[thesmartazz]

Well, it looks like this decision will be a very important one for me during this application cycle, too. There's been a lot of talk about Boston vs SF and research opportunities, but is anyone considering the differences in curriculum? Also, I'm surprised that someone (Towelie, I think?) thinks that patient diversity is greater in Boston. I would think that they diversity is very different, if anything. Also, the biggest hospital that underserved populations have access to in Boston is the Boston Medical Center, right?

 

[cafeconleche]

Go to UCSF MDPHD...unless you're really unsure about whether you want to get the phd... with a phd, you'll be able to match anywhere. i just dont think harvard's cost is worth it. feel free to pm me with any questions about hms.

No longer "just curious," has become reality. ****ing crazy!!! Would I be an idiot to turn down a funded MSTP slot to go to Harvard MD spot without funding?

 

[Angelique]

Well, it looks like this decision will be a very important one for me during this application cycle, too.

Me too. So I turned to SDN:

2006 UCSF vs Harvard * Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=267265&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2006 Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or UCSF?? *Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=267378&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2006 UCSF v. Harvard (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251981&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2005 UCSF v. Duke v. Harvard --Any thoughts? *Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=187041&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2004 UCSF v. Harvard! a wonderful dilemma. (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=126072&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2004 Harvard of UCSF? (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=110359&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 Yale, Harvard, or UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=82080&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 UPenn (scholarship) vs. Harvard vs. UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62464&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 UCSF vs. Harvard (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=60842&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2001 Harvard v. UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=2417&highlight=harvard+ucsf)

Apart, from laughing at amusing quotes such as "Harvard often complains that UCSF is the only school that steals students from them," I didn't learn much from these threads (at this point, anyone reading this will hit me in the head with an e-hammer and yell "no duh!"). I'll do some real research and get back to you.

 

[GoinBack2Cali?]

Me too. So I turned to SDN:

2006 UCSF vs Harvard * Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=267265&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2006 Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or UCSF?? *Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=267378&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2006 UCSF v. Harvard (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251981&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2005 UCSF v. Duke v. Harvard --Any thoughts? *Poll* (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=187041&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2004 UCSF v. Harvard! a wonderful dilemma. (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=126072&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2004 Harvard of UCSF? (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=110359&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 Yale, Harvard, or UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=82080&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 UPenn (scholarship) vs. Harvard vs. UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62464&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2003 UCSF vs. Harvard (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=60842&highlight=harvard+ucsf)
2001 Harvard v. UCSF (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=2417&highlight=harvard+ucsf)

Apart, from laughing at amusing quotes such as "Harvard often complains that UCSF is the only school that steals students from them," I didn't learn much from these threads (at this point, anyone reading this will hit me in the head with an e-hammer and yell "no duh!"). I'll do some real research and get back to you.

Thanks for the links

 

[jojo_1981]

Plain and simple, you would be stupid not to go to UCSF MD/PHD over Harvard (unpaid) MD - it just isn't worth it. Of course, if research isn't your thing, it becomes a whole different ballgame....do you want to be in school for the next 7 years?

 

[Dr. Dodger Dog]

Both are terrific schools. Anyone would be lucky to go to either of them. Four years ago, I was waitlisted by HMS and accepted by UCSF. I'm very happy that I was not accepted by HMS in retrospect because I probably would have chosen HMS. I could not be happier with the experience I have had at UCSF. Every single faculty member really focuses on teaching and the medical student experience. The atmosphere of learning at UCSF is really special. If I had known about that intangible aspect of UCSF before deciding to come here, it would have made my decision that much easier.

As for residency match, I think UCSF's matchlist can compare to any other top medical school's list. Remember, just because UCSF doesn't match a ton on the east coast at "famous" residency programs doesn't mean that our students didn't have the choice to go to those programs. Location plays a large role in both choosing a medical school AND residency programs as well. This year alone, UCSF matched 11 into ophtho which is pretty impressive for any program. All of my friends are excited about their residency placements and all of them got their first choices. There are great faculty mentors in all clinical fields that will get you the opportunities you need to match into a top residency in any field.

While I was on an away rotation at Boston Children's Hospital, I met several HMS 3rd and 4th year students who said, "If I had gotten into UCSF, I would have gone." Ironic since had I gotten into HMS, I would have gone. HMS is a fantastic place with top level research and facilities. I really enjoyed my rotation at CHB and Boston is a great city as well.

If you are looking for brand names, then HMS is your choice. If you are looking for plasma screens in all the small group rooms, HMS is your choice. If you are looking for freezing snow and wintry mix, HMS is your choice.

Just don't discount UCSF as a top level institution that will get you the residency of your dreams. Substance over style here at UCSF

 

[soeagerun2or]

If by poverty you mean being able to pay for medical school and buy books, pay for an apartment (however small), buy food (even if I don't eat steak every day), and drive a car (whatever old)....okay, I can live with it.

Seriously, ever been in a thirld world country?

Poverty is defined by Congress as a manipulation of an economical equation assuming 1/3 total income is devoted to food.

This has nothing to do with a third world country. And how is that even relevant? We're in the US, talking about US standards.

Oh, yes, and I calim to know about them because I lived in such a country for 15 years.

Welcome to civilization. Maybe you can go back and teach them how to not live in destitute conditions.

 

[TheCybermen]

UCSF has location, and that's about it.

location is far more subjective than quality of education, viz. let's not forget about those of us who would spend a century in the northeast before spending a minute out west... what happens to the factor of location then?