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UF admissions misconduct

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by spyhopper, Sep 27, 2002.

  1. spyhopper

    spyhopper Junior Member

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    hi all,

    just thought i'd share a little story i heard from an adcom at a florida school. apparently both miami and usf have reported uf to the aamc for misconduct in last year's admissions process. it seems that two years ago, uf had some of the best stats in the country for the number of accepted applicants that decided to go to uf instead of other schools they might have been accepted to. in other words, they had to accept only a small number of people to fill their class. anticipating a repeat performance, uf accepted very few people and only waitlisted 50 people last year. well, turns out that even after accepting everyone off of the waitlist, they still didn't have enough people to fill their class. problem is they had already rejected all the other people who had interviewed. so, they decided to UNreject some people which is supposedly against aamc rules. some of these unrejected applicants decided to go to uf even though they had already said yes to other med schools. miami and usf were therefore (understandably) extremely upset because they lost some of their students-to-be and had to find more at the last second.

    anyway, i thought this was interesting. don't know if it's 100% accurate, but i suspect that it is since i know personally some people that got into uf extraordinarily late who, quite frankly, were not all that competitive (low stats, etc.). i love uf and have lots of friends there, so i was really disappointed to hear about this. for all those uf med students, i hope i don't offend you - this problem is obviously a reflection on the adcom, not the school in general. i'm sure they've changed their policy for this year. anyone have any comments or know anything more than i do?
     
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  3. dpark74

    dpark74 Senior Member
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    I was reading a post awhile back and noticed someone saying that they got unrejected. (I think it was Florida, don't know for sure.) Sounds to me that your story may have merit.
     
  4. CANES2006

    CANES2006 Miami chica
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    Yeah, that's old news. If you look at leila2's posts you'll see that she was rejected AND THEN accepted sometime late summer to UF. She let go of USF to go to UF instead. What I didn't know was that the other Florida schools reported UF to the AAMC. I didn't even know those procedures existed. But, I'm glad. UF was really cocky last year, and they turned down alot of peeps with great stats. Serves them right. DOWN WITH THE GATORS!!!! ;)
     
  5. PelicanMan

    PelicanMan Senior Member
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    The story is true and I am sooooooooooo pissed offfff at UF for doing that.
     
  6. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member
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    A little off-subject, but isn't there a FL med school that is on the verge of losing its accredidation (spelling?)?

    Isn't it Florida State University?
     
  7. MD2b06

    MD2b06 Senior Member
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    Actually, FSU never had full accreditation. Only their first year curriculum is accredited. They failed to obtain accreditation for the second year curriculum this past spring. It was one of the main reasons I decided not to attend. That coupled with the fact that their mission (producing docs that return to rural areas) is not something I'm interested in. I have no doubt it'll be a fine school, but too much uncertainty right now to risk it.

    As far as the UF misconduct is concerned, can't say I'm surprised. Anyone know what the ramifications of this could be?
     
  8. Tuesday Weld

    Tuesday Weld Senior Member
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    :eek: JESUS FREAKIN' CRIPES ! :eek:
    If that's true, then why would anyone want to apply to/accept an offer from Florida State? :eek: Since their 1st year is accredited, does that mean that students who graduated last year were able to get residencies?

    What will happen when and if their 1st year is no longer accredited??!! Will the students be without an MD? Or no longer be able to obtain any type of residency in the U.S.? :eek:
     
  9. SunnyS81

    SunnyS81 Senior Member
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    I don't know how accreditation impacts an institute's ability to grant degrees, but I figure that you could probably apply just like a foreign medical school graduate in the worst case scenario.

    As for the suit against UF: I haven't reread the AMCAS rules, but to my understanding RULES were estabilished for students, while SUGGESTIONS were made for schools. I may not be right, but I remember thinking how strange that both groups weren't bound by rules.
     
  10. poloace

    poloace Senior Member
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    that is a really poor way to conduct a business... and to train the future doctors of america. they really need to get their act together.
    p
     
  11. MacGyver

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    FSU doesnt have any graduates yet. Last year was their first entering class, so as long as FSU gets accreditation in the next 2.5 years then FSU med grads shouldnt have a problem with residency.

    If however, after 2.5 years (when the first crop graduates) FSU STILL doesnt have accreditation, then obviously thats a big problem. I imagine that if that were to happen, there would be clinics/hospitals in rural florida that would agree to take the FSU grads even if they arent accredited. FSU has agreements with a number of rural health institutions, so I imagine they would use that relationship to "encourage" these places to take their grads.

    I think the AAMC is supposed to review FSU's status this October and decide whether or not to grant conditional accreditation.
     
  12. FutureM.D.

    FutureM.D. Psychology major
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    FSU is so messed up.:eek:
     
  13. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member
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    That's an understatement!

    What? Did they just open up a med school as a front for laundering money or something? :laugh: :laugh:
     
  14. pathdr2b

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    I am a graduate of the University of Florida and former Biological Scientist at the medical school.
    IF I were to apply to medical schools in Florida, my choices would be ONLY USF, U-Miami, or FSU!
     
  15. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member
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    I'm sorry to hear that. You have my condolences. :p
     
  16. pathdr2b

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    Hey, what are you some kind of Gator sympathizer?

    Just kidding!! My beef with UF goes way back due in large part to how they mistreated students I knew that attended UF med.
     
  17. MacGyver

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    I think the AAMC and the Florida state legislature needs to watch FSU med very, very closely.

    This med school was founded almost SOLELY based on the purpose of producing doctors who practice in rural florida.

    If, in 10 years, it turns out that most of the FSU grads are practicing in big cities/non underserved areas, the Florida state legislature should warn FSU that their funding/accreditation is in danger.

    Med schools cost millions of dollars to finance; tuition is not enough to cover it. The tax paying residents of FL should be confident that their dollars are going to a real need.
     
  18. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member
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    LOL! No, I didn't see that UF was missing from that list and I was just taking a jab at Florida schools, in general.

    You know...just to be mean. :p

    What did they do?
     
  19. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member
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    MacGyver,

    I agree with you. Not only that, and this is waaaaaay off subject, but if too many schools open up (including those that churn out Osteopaths), then the career of a doctor could go the way of other professionals...like lawyers! Lawyers are a dime a dozen because there are so many law schools and anyone can get into at least 1 law school.

    Osteopathic and Caribbean schools have lower standards to begin with. It's great as long as supply meets demand, but after that point...then what?

    The one thing that you hardly ever see with a doctor (that you see with lawyers or engineers all of the time) is someone who is OUT OF WORK. I don't think if I even know of an out-of-work doctor. I just hope that continues. :eek:
     
  20. MacGyver

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    yeah me too.

    I am an engineer by training, and its just so frustrating to see a profession that used to have a high expectation of good employment go to the point now where its really not a profession anymore and anybody has access.

    In the future, when someone asks what you do and you tell them you're an engineer, that will imply NOTHING about your education or training. You could have gone to MIT and double majored in electrical and biomedical engineering, or you could have taken a couple of computer programming classes at your local community college.
     
  21. MD2b06

    MD2b06 Senior Member
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    I disagree. The school can't control where their graduates decide to practice. All they can do is hope to recruit those students that they hope will return to rural areas after residency. When I interviewed there, they said about 1/3 of the class specializes (based on historical data from the PIMS program) and the rest go into primary care (IM, EM, FP, Peds, etc). The school can't control who will and won't return to a rural area, so they shouldn't be punished for it. Who wants to live in a podunk town anyway? Not me. As for why people go to FSU. 1) It's cheap. and 2) Since classes start in May, many people don't have a chance to get off waitlists at schools they prefer. It's either go to FSU and deal with the accreditation issue or turn them down and risk having to reapply if you don't get in after Mid-May.
     
  22. lady bug

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    FSU is up for accredidation again in february. there are huge pooled efforts taking place with the legislature and other florida allopathic med schools to get fsu accreditated because if the school remains unaccredited, it ultimately reflects poorly upon the whole state. we'll just have to wait and see what happens.....
     
  23. lady bug

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    BTW, does UF screen for secondaries? It is the only school which I still haven't received a secondary from....kinda strange. :confused:
     
  24. INeedAdvice

    INeedAdvice Senior Member
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    MacGyver,
    I hear ya! I'm glad I applied to medical school (and got in!) last year and am on my way to getting an MD. The quality of employees in the field of engineering, and systems for that matter, has really gone down.

    Are you talking about the state that can't count and that recruits thugs onto their state school football teams?





    Too late.






    :D
     
  25. MD2b06

    MD2b06 Senior Member
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    Yes they screen. More emphasis on science GPA than MCAT usually.
     
  26. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    Wow. People on SDN really like to bash lawyers. You know, there are only like 183 law schools (ABA-approved). If you add DO schools, there are probably at least the same number of med schools. And I've never really heard about lawyers out of work. Engineers maybe, but not since late 80s-ish. At the least, quality engineers can always get another job really quickly...

    -RA
     
  27. MacGyver

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    Yes, but each one of those law schools accepts approx 400-500 people a year compared to 120 a year for med schools. There are 125 allopathic MD programs, I dont know how many DO programs but even if the combined sum is equal to law schools, then there are still many more lawyers being trained than docs. Each law school is equivalent to 3-4 med schools because the enrollment size differs so much.

    And I HAVE heard of plenty of lawyers out of work. I used to work at a company that did legal document coding. We had lots of fresh law school grads working there who couldnt find a job as a lawyer. Law employment depends ALOT on where you went to school. Harvard law grads get to pick any job they want, but grads of the South Texas College of Law dont always get a job at all.

    As for engineers, the employment situation there is not a disaster, but its not nearly what it used to be. Engineering grads have to actually work to find a job these days, whereas before they would have several offers handed to them without even really looking for them.
     
  28. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member
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    Good point Mac.

    And they're probably not as in such a bad shape because an engineer can pretty much get a job at any technical/electrical/engineering type company, which are more plentiful than law firms or huge corps with law dept.

    Engineers can work in the "Engineering department", "Technical Marketing department", any management position in a high-tech company, go into teaching, ...

    But a lawyer doesn't have as many options...they pretty much can work for a law firm, go into teaching, or work only in the "Law department" (but not every corporation has such a department).

    I don't think anyone is "bashing" lawyers. Just pointing out how the market is oversaturated.
     
  29. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    Point definitely conceded, but your numbers are way off. Doing spot checks on USNews, a lot of quality law schools are more in the 120-250 range (with the exception of Harvard and G-Town which are like 600 and 500 or so, respectively), and I can only imagine that non-top 50 law schools are smaller (in general) than top 50s. There are a bunch of top 50s that spike up to 300-400 range, however (Cal schools, in particular).

    Also, most people who go to med school actually plan on being a doctor, whereas that's not always true with law school, just with observation of people I know.
     
  30. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member
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    Very good point too. ;)

    Although, that never made sense to me. It would be like going to get a Masters in Accounting and not wanting to do accounting?

    From some of these posts, it looks like kids are pushed into either law or medicine ...both of which are about as far apart as one could get in a career. What do they have in common? An impressive degree. So perhaps some people who want a J.D., but don't want to practice as a lawyer just want an impressive degree after their name ...and it's easier to get into a Law school and less time consuming/expensive than it is to get into a Med school. :D
     
  31. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    Well, a lot of people see a JD as a "versatile" (that's the word people always use for some reason) degree that's useful for other things. Law schools tend to disagree with this attitude, from what I've heard from law forums. If you do have this attitude, it is definitely easier to deal with law school admissions than med school admissions.

    Lately, I've heard that an MBA is a more "versatile" (there's that word again) degree, but there has been a lot of bad press about MBAs lately and about how they don't give you an edge. My theory is that it's because of all the dotcoms who gave high salaries to anyone, not just MBAs.

    -RA
     
  32. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member
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    True. Look at what happened to the computer field. It got over saturated.

    On the other hand, ...everyone is going out and getting an MBA or a JD, so it doesn't mean that much these days. So, (unless you're talking about a dotcome, which are deccreasing in number) does that mean that you *have* to get such a degree to put yourself ahead of the crowd to get a job at a non-dotcom company? A high school degree is simply laughable. Are Bachelor degrees becoming that way too? I think so.

    Decades (and I guess centuries) ago, education was expensive (well, it's expensive now, but we can get loans ;) ) and only open to a certain segment of society (rich, white, men).

    But since schools have opened their flood gates, and every community college is getting into the act, and a new school is popping up every week, a Bachelors doesn't mean anything.

    What's going to happen years from now? Are all of our children going to have to go out and get PhDs AND MDs AND JDs just to be noticed by a company? :eek: :eek:
     
  33. Valeriya

    Valeriya Member
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    :p
    Let's just hope for the sake of those who apply to UF this year, that they will be forced to be less cocky and accept all the qualified applicants instead of torturing them with the wait-lists or blanckly regecting...
    I am holding my hopes up, and wish us all luck, however, just like lady bug I am still waiting to receive the UF secondary, although my science GPA and MCAT are both fine. They are probably just being too lazy to screen through all the amcas trasmissions so far. Oh well..:rolleyes:
     
  34. Lara

    Lara Senior Member
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    That makes the (reported from my behavior science class) stat that *50%* of public high school students in Philadelphia don't graduate even scarier. :eek: Something has to be done or the gap between the rich and poor will grow even further.

    And you know, it almost doesn't seem fair - we're all intelligent people here who can expect to make a good livelihood one way or another. But there must be plenty of others who maybe don't have the mental aptitude for advanced coursework (ie. past high school) but could still contribute in some positive way to society if given a chance. But what kind of opportunities are left? Years ago farming might have been a respected option, but that's just about gone...

    Sorry for going off-tangent. :) I don't imagine the same situation will arise with UF again. I wonder if they were really forced to unreject or wanted a larger class (perhaps for tuition money)?
     
  35. Lady MD

    Lady MD Member
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    Interesting. So has our continuing open educational system made education a cheaper commodity or even more necessary than ever? You could look at it from both ways.

    But overall, and to make a generality, I think it's cheapened it (and that's not necessarily a bad thing). As someone said, you can get a computer or engineering job without those degrees, as long as you have the skills (and highschool kids have the computer skills necessary to do many computer programming or drafting or engineering jobs). Many are self-taught by the internet as well. Because of the internet, anyone can do practically anything that doesn't require a license. ;) Not getting a college education isn't a big deal anymore. Bill Gates doesn't have one.

    It's like the cheapening of the color tv.

    Fifty years ago, you'd impress the heck out of people having one in your living room because not everyone had access to one. And a kid may have felt embarrassed if his parents couldn't afford one because it may have shown your poor financial status.

    Nowadays, if you don't have a tv, it's not because you're too poor and can't afford one. Anyone can afford a color tv in the U.S. If you don't have one it's because you have made the conscious decision to not have one. It's a lifestyle decision. And it's no big deal, because if you decide one day to go and purchase one, you can. The same could be said with education during current times.

    However, in the licensed-professional fields (doctors and lawyers...) where it's against the law to practice those professions without a license...those are the professions that are going to be more competitive because of the fact that education has become opened to the masses. Those are the ones who will need upteen degrees to get noticed. :(
     
  36. cg1

    cg1 Senior Member
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    What can they do? Except for pumping FSU with free funds (and throwing good money after bad), what kind of control do they have? Legislation to lower the standards?
     
  37. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg 1K Member
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    cg1,

    never underestimate the power of politics. FSU was far less equipped than the University of West Florida for a rural medical school, yet it got one because of a certain speaker of the house from northwest florida. Tallahassee just isn't that great a town for medical related problems, and Pensacola has some great hospitals and patient loads.

    Someone on the accreditation board may get their pockets lined via legisliation, or something like that, but FSU will be accredited (95% chance)....even if it doesnt deserve to be.
     
  38. Ryo-Ohki

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    Where's Foxy? Didn't she go to UF?
     
  39. CD

    CD Senior Member
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    QUOTE
    "And you know, it almost doesn't seem fair - we're all intelligent people here who can expect to make a good livelihood one way or another. But there must be plenty of others who maybe don't have the mental aptitude for advanced coursework (ie. past high school) but could still contribute in some positive way to society if given a chance. But what kind of opportunities are left? Years ago farming might have been a respected option, but that's just about gone..."

    EXCUSE ME? Farming is for the less intellegent? I must object. As a second generation farming family I can assure you that farming requires far more intellegence than you might imagine...not only in the area of mechanics, horticulture, and a myriad of others , but also in finance. EVERY farmer that I personally know has at least a B.S.. Those who don't have the "mental capacity" just don't make it in this field because it requires far more than "brute force". To be a farm hand may not require as much knowledge but to RUN a profitable farm requires a high degree of intellect.
     
  40. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg 1K Member
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    I second what CD says about farming..

    CD, I see you're from oregon....sorry to hear about the gov't stealing your water and giving it to the damn endangered fish...I guess they are more important than humans now,eh ? :rolleyes:
     
  41. CD

    CD Senior Member
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    Quote
    "CD, I see you're from oregon....sorry to hear about the gov't stealing your water and giving it to the damn endangered fish...I guess they are more important than humans now,eh ? :rolleyes:"

    We farm in the Willamette valley which is quite a distance from the Klamath basin (where the water rights issue is) so our farm hasn't really felt the impact. BUT don't get me started.........
     
  42. Lara

    Lara Senior Member
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    Sorry CD, I definitely didn't mean to imply that anyone who farms is incapable of (say) doing calculus! Or that all you need to be successful is brute strength - I'm sure you do have to be intelligent to make it. But I did figure that the *sort* of knowledge needed even today didn't have to be taught in an advanced class...guess I was wrong. Actually I do know my former undergrad university has a separate campus for agricultural studies near where my parents live, so I should have thought better. :oops: And there's the finance aspect as you mentioned.

    So seriously then, what kind of satisfactory job can you get without college...let alone high school? Higher education is basically mandatory today, but not everyone has equal access due to finances, poor elementary/high school teaching and school environment, poor parental influences, lesser capability for "book learning" (though they may excell in other areas)...it's just not a good situation I think.
     
  43. none

    none 1K Member
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    The AAMC does not grant accreditate schools. The LCME does.

    More on the topic, as another poster said, the other FL schools can complain all they want, it doesn't mean anything. A school is perfectly within its rights to unreject a student. Anything to do with the AAMC or AMCAS is not binding and only recommended to the member schools. The worst the AAMC could do would be to kick a school out which they clearly would not do as they are losing members as it is and really wish to have every school in the country participate in AMCAS.

    And back to being off topic, finances are simply not an issue in access to college. Not only are their fully subsidized community colleges out there, but beyond that there are loans for absolutely everyone who really needs one. The other issues may be more valid.
     
  44. MacGyver

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    My point about engineering is not that there arent engineers who need to be very smart to do their jobs, what I'm saying is that the standards of the profession are so inconsistent now with regards to expectations of training and education that within 20 years, only civil engineering will be a true engineering profession.

    Take microsoft for example. Its very possible to drop out of high school, take an MCSE (9 month computer course) and get hired at microsoft with job title of 'systems engineer'

    Engineering used to imply a standard training in math, physics, chem, etc, but now you dont need any of that stuff to be an engineer. I could study a certain operating system, know absolutely nothing about mathematics, and still get a job as an engineer.

    Compare that to a physician, where ALL of us has to have some minimal training in biology, chemistry, etc. There is a standard set of expectations in our background training. This used to also be the case with engineering, but in the future only civil engineering (which requires a P.E. license to sign off on public projects) will meet this description.

    When someone says to you "I'm an engineer" thats a very vague and nondescript job title now. It implies NOTHING about job responsibilities, aptitudes, abilities, or training. Thats why its losing its status as a true profession.
     
  45. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    If someone calls themselves just an "engineer," then what you say is correct. However, I disagree that civil engineering will be the only "real" engineering. Electrical, mechanical, and chemical, I would argue are similar.

    Yes, the word "engineer" has been cheapened by overuse in some ways, but if you have an actual specialty like Civil, EE, ME, ChemE, then it actually means something. EE/ME/ChemE are still about having significant training in math/physics/etc, at least according to the degree requirements I've looked at. BME, I'm not so sure (former BME major :)), although I did need all the basic sciences, plus DiffEq, so the requirements were similar to the other engineering degrees here.

    My dad always makes sure that his title is "Electrical Engineer," (as opposed to Systems Engineer, or some other title) because that represents this significant education.

    -RA
     
  46. INeedAdvice

    INeedAdvice Senior Member
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    Excellent point. There are about a thousand scholarships and government aid to smart and/or financially struggling stuggling students. Unless you're very much mentally impaired, there's no reason why you couldn't get a degree at a community college or a tier 4 college.

    So true.

    Exactly. And the Boards are standardized, so everyone has to take the same ones. Although I have to say that the passing rate isn't very demanding (isn't it like 60%??). :eek: Because of that, I think the hardest part of becoming a physician is getting into an Allopathic school (another reason why affirmative action should be modified to be more fair and to not reflect only race.).
     

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