I'm in the application process rn for dental school, and I do understand this may be putting the cart before the horse but I'd rather start researching potential paths while I have some free time, but could someone here provide any info on the likelihood of specializing out of each of these two dental schools? I'm definitely fine with being a general dentist, but my mindset comes from a place of better safe than sorry. Let's say I get to dental school and realize I want to pursue, for sake of extremism, the most competitive specialty, which I believe is ortho or OMFS. How difficult and competitive would that be at UF and UPenn? So long as you don't put in the bare minimum work, is UPenn basically a guaranteed since it's Ivy? Thank you for any help!
UF vs. Penn for Specializing?
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So...you can specialize as a graduate of any program. However, you’ll have a better shot (not a sure thing) from PENN over UF. A few reasons - one there are ton of residency programs in the North East and you’ll have an easier time networking. The NE corridor of PENN, Columbia, Harvard, and BU have a longstanding history of contributions to academics and the specialties. When you look at program directors and other faculty with influence, you’ll find many PENN alumni.
With all that said, if I were choosing between the 2. I’d pick UF because of the cost of living and there’s more opportunities for young dentists in FL than PA/NJ. If you’re going to OMFS - go UF > GPR/OS intern > OS (assuming you apply to OS and don’t get in right out of school and do a GPR between).
Thank you!
A lot of residents that went to my school came from UPenn, definitely some merit in going to an Ivy school for whatever reason. If you're intent on specializing, UPenn is probably a safer route (networking/unranked I believe (?)/research/extracurriculars).
However, $500K COA for dental school alone is nothing to shrug at. Even as a specialist, this will take considerable time to pay down.
www.dental.upenn.edu
However, $500K COA for dental school alone is nothing to shrug at. Even as a specialist, this will take considerable time to pay down.
Tuition & Fees - Penn Dental Medicine
That's very true. These loans are very expensive. Would you mind sharing what school that was?A lot of residents that went to my school came from UPenn, definitely some merit in going to an Ivy school for whatever reason. If you're intent on specializing, UPenn is probably a safer route (networking/unranked I believe (?)/research/extracurriculars).
However, $500K COA for dental school alone is nothing to shrug at. Even as a specialist, this will take considerable time to pay down.
Tuition & Fees - Penn Dental Medicine
Full disclaimer- I'm a dental student that was interested in OMFS before I started dental school and I chose a cheap school over an Ivy/prestigious one. I'm probably going to end up with $250-270k after 4 years interest included ( no parental help or outside money).
Pros of attending a cheaper school ( UF in your case):
Debt- In my case I was contemplating going to columbia, which would have been probably 550-600k for 4 years including interest. Bear in mind that the stipend paying ortho residencies are extremely competitive, and you may very well be adding another 1-300k debt. With OMFS its an additional 4 or 6 years that your loans are accumulating interest. For me at least, it would have amounted to an additional $400k in loans by the end of residency. I just mentally couldn't justify having 800k in loans after graduating residency...
Cons of attending a cheap school:
Specializing attitude- I'd say in my school only 10-15 ( out of 100ish) end up specializing. For OMFS I think only 1 person in the past two years has matched, and ortho probably 5-10. Most people are trying to be general dentists, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you are trying to specialize you might feel a bit out of place at times, and your specialty group might not be active. All that means is you have to be more proactive about finding research, shadowing, mentoring, etc.
Grading- Not gonna lie here, my school is ranked by cumulative GPA %, ( so 100 pt scale not 4.0) which makes literally every point matter. Add in the very subjective nature of many parts of dental school ( lab/clinic) and it can be very demotivating for some: Lots of my classmates that wanted to specialize gave up after 1st year because they got burned out with the system.
TLDR: For me networking and an easier time in dental school (which has sucky parts no matter where you go lol) wasn't worth $400k. Going to an Ivy doesn't mean you won't have to work your butt off to specialize, it just means you'll probably have more people to commiserate with.
Pros of attending a cheaper school ( UF in your case):
Debt- In my case I was contemplating going to columbia, which would have been probably 550-600k for 4 years including interest. Bear in mind that the stipend paying ortho residencies are extremely competitive, and you may very well be adding another 1-300k debt. With OMFS its an additional 4 or 6 years that your loans are accumulating interest. For me at least, it would have amounted to an additional $400k in loans by the end of residency. I just mentally couldn't justify having 800k in loans after graduating residency...
Cons of attending a cheap school:
Specializing attitude- I'd say in my school only 10-15 ( out of 100ish) end up specializing. For OMFS I think only 1 person in the past two years has matched, and ortho probably 5-10. Most people are trying to be general dentists, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you are trying to specialize you might feel a bit out of place at times, and your specialty group might not be active. All that means is you have to be more proactive about finding research, shadowing, mentoring, etc.
Grading- Not gonna lie here, my school is ranked by cumulative GPA %, ( so 100 pt scale not 4.0) which makes literally every point matter. Add in the very subjective nature of many parts of dental school ( lab/clinic) and it can be very demotivating for some: Lots of my classmates that wanted to specialize gave up after 1st year because they got burned out with the system.
TLDR: For me networking and an easier time in dental school (which has sucky parts no matter where you go lol) wasn't worth $400k. Going to an Ivy doesn't mean you won't have to work your butt off to specialize, it just means you'll probably have more people to commiserate with.
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Thanks! This helps
I gotta learn this stuff somehow ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m sure they have preconceived notions about your school though
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UF has all of the specialty departments and likely a higher patient flow than Penn. If you have decent grades, I don’t think you’d be disadvantaged at all at UF when applying for residencies.
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Yes, Penn, like some “elite” private schools, is known to inflate grades.
No way! I know quite a few people that could not match into ortho from UPENN. And these were competitivw candidates with multiple interviews.
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This IMO is important. You can interact with the specialty residents, attendings, director, etc. to help with their research. Help you with your own research. LOR from these same people. You need to build connections. Hard to do this in those programs geared for GPs with no specialty depts.
I'm a current student in one of those "super expensive" "not worth it" "lol wtf r u doing paying that much money" institutions, I would say that if your goal is to specialize, go to UPenn. They'll make your life easier when it comes to specializing. You'll be in an atmosphere where you're encouraged to look into specialties. Coming from one of those schools will look better on your application. I am saying this from the perspective of a student from one of these institutions. Hope best of luck on your journey.
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Not worth the $, especially if you want to do ortho. I went to a moderately priced school ($320K after interest) and a lot of residencies are going to run you 150K-200K+. There are many programs that are cheaper than $100K, but you can't bank on getting into these programs, especially when it's a state school that has 3 seats.
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It’s always the students and never the graduates encouraging predents to choose the expensive option. Curious to see how the opinion changes on whether it is worth it between a D1 and a dentist 5 years out.
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Penn 100%
D
deleted903013
But what if you want a specialty like orthodontics where you'll possibly need to go an additional 200k in the hole? A state school may still allow you to financially do that, but a school like Penn could have you looking at well over half a million dollars at that point, possibly even closer to one million dollars post interest.
At Columbia ~1/2 the class matched for specializing. Class of 2020 had 11/11 ortho, 16/18 in OMFS (IIRC), 5/7 endo, 2/2 prost, 1/1 perio and peds was lowest at around 60% I believe. The 2021 cycle has even more students specializing.
I think there are a lot of resources in the Ivys that help one along the way specialize. Of course, all things being equal saving $150k makes the most sense.
Also, these students didn't "just pass" courses. They worked hard and were able to fill impressive CVs.
I think there are a lot of resources in the Ivys that help one along the way specialize. Of course, all things being equal saving $150k makes the most sense.
Also, these students didn't "just pass" courses. They worked hard and were able to fill impressive CVs.
Then this student would have to ask themselves the question, "Would I be willing to go into 700k debt for orthodontics". I can't answer that question. But if we're asking the question: "If I wanted to have the highest chances of specializing, which school should I go to"? Then Penn most certainly has a definite edge over the state school.
It will probably change A LOT once they realize how much extra debt they have to repay every month and how little there is left for much else...
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I think it depends on the speciality. If you are set on OMFS, Endo, or Ortho, I think it's worth it. If you are interested in general dentistry or any other speciality, it's not worth it imo (I'm including Peds in this mix because you dont necessarily need a high class rank for peds). Of course you can specialize from any school, but what you don't see are the number of applicants that really wanted to pursue a specialty and then gave up after their first year because they had a mediocre class rank.
I agree, taking out 500k in loans is A LOT, but you also have to look at income potential for the specialty you're pursing. Is 500k a lot if you're going to make 500k+ in private practice? It's probably pretty reasonable. You don't hear people crapping on software engineers taking out 200-300k in loans to make 100-300k as an engineer. It only becomes a problem when you take 500k in loans out to only make 180-200k.
I agree, taking out 500k in loans is A LOT, but you also have to look at income potential for the specialty you're pursing. Is 500k a lot if you're going to make 500k+ in private practice? It's probably pretty reasonable. You don't hear people crapping on software engineers taking out 200-300k in loans to make 100-300k as an engineer. It only becomes a problem when you take 500k in loans out to only make 180-200k.
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Yeah and they make a lot less than most specialists AND their salary is more capped than a specialist's.
All I'm saying is people automatically look at how big the loan is and immediately think it's not worth it without taking into account income potential.
Also, think about where you have to live as a software engineer.......
Even tech workers can’t afford to buy homes in San Francisco
In tech’s capital, even programmers with six-figure salaries are struggling to afford studio apartments.
www.vox.com
"Around 70 percent of tech workers for top tech companies living in the Bay Area say they can’t afford to buy a house near where they work, according to a recent study from the workplace chat app Blind, which polled around 3,000 tech workers."
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As always, we have two sides of the coin represented by those who have a bias as a result of their own experience.
I'll try to be objective, but alas, I'm biased as well.
UF- likely easier to apply to OMFS, Ortho, and all of the other specialities relative to a degree from many of the other dental schools out there
I will say I had a local OMFS come by to introduce themselves the other day. I have a weird habit of googling my local specialists and already knew this person went to UPENN for dental school. without baiting or prompting him, he said "UPENN does not train you well to become a general dentist." He elaborated on this further but I wont quote anything more at the risk of becoming inaccurate. this is one mans opinion, however, I think it Is worth sharing. he is an alum after all.
trust your gut when it gets to decision time. my bias? debt is bad. Paying $100k+ to get into specialty xyz straight out of dental school as opposed to (worst case scenario) waiting 1-2 years (while getting paid) would not be worth it for me. I really have a hard time understanding this topic since you are the same person with the same drive whether you go to Upenn or UF. There will be others wanting to do omfs or ortho at a public school, hang out with them. if you get sucked into the anti-specialty crowd at a public school than maybe you weren't meant to be ortho or omfs anyway? I was in the antispeciality crowd and I'm going back for a specialty after 4 years so it's not like you cant change your mind. just keep your class rank up.
many different paths to the same goal. some paths just have more debt.
I'll try to be objective, but alas, I'm biased as well.
Upenn- likely easier to apply to OMFS and Ortho and I'm sure the other specialties relative to UF.
UF- likely easier to apply to OMFS, Ortho, and all of the other specialities relative to a degree from many of the other dental schools out there
No
I experienced this as well. In fact, I was on the other side of it and many of my fellow General Dentist colleagues would talk out of the side of our mouths against the gunners. To be honest, that's what ranking people does, it breeds competition and bad blood. no sense in hiding that. probably about 20% of our class specialized and almost everyone I know who was passionate and did not get into their respective specialty (endo/ omfs/ ortho) and applied again got in. the OMFS people who didn't get in had the hardest time It seemed but most of them decided too late in their D3 and D4 year to apply and simply didn't have a top rank by then or needed time to study for the test (CBSE I think it's called?) so they did an intern year. those with a spotty class rank (right at our below top 50%) had to do 2-3 intern years. But, those who had perseverance made it into their specialty
my school name came up frequently. don't take anything you read on here and give it too much weight. although you can specialize in anything from anywhere, the idea that certain schools don't have a reputation is nonsense. UF, to my knowledge, has a great reputation.
they do
people argue this until their face turns blue. I am in the crowd that believes It is beneficial to have as many specialties associated with your school as possible for many reasons. networking is 1. Also, you likely will have a board certified professor in their respective field teaching you each and every subset of dentistry. I don't understand how this could be viewed as a disadvantage except for the fact some cases will be taken away from you and given to residents in that specialty. If you can see, than you can do. In the event an anterior implant restoration or difficult extraction gets taken away from you for the reason listed above just ask if you can assist the resident and you'll still get decent experience this way.
I will say I had a local OMFS come by to introduce themselves the other day. I have a weird habit of googling my local specialists and already knew this person went to UPENN for dental school. without baiting or prompting him, he said "UPENN does not train you well to become a general dentist." He elaborated on this further but I wont quote anything more at the risk of becoming inaccurate. this is one mans opinion, however, I think it Is worth sharing. he is an alum after all.
trust your gut when it gets to decision time. my bias? debt is bad. Paying $100k+ to get into specialty xyz straight out of dental school as opposed to (worst case scenario) waiting 1-2 years (while getting paid) would not be worth it for me. I really have a hard time understanding this topic since you are the same person with the same drive whether you go to Upenn or UF. There will be others wanting to do omfs or ortho at a public school, hang out with them. if you get sucked into the anti-specialty crowd at a public school than maybe you weren't meant to be ortho or omfs anyway? I was in the antispeciality crowd and I'm going back for a specialty after 4 years so it's not like you cant change your mind. just keep your class rank up.
many different paths to the same goal. some paths just have more debt.
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This is anecdotal but I was choosing between my in-state school and UPENN for predoc. In the end, I chose my state school, graduated, moved across the country, then got into a competitive specialty program (omfs/endo/ortho) in my new state. Numerous kids in the top third of my dental school specialized in different specialty programs across the country.
There was no one at my school (that I know of) who wanted to specialize that couldn't only because they went to my school.
Few things to remember, the dental community is small. If you go to UF, hang out with OMFS faculty/residents, and then go interview at 10 OMFS programs, someone is going to know faculty you hung out with, or know a UF trained doc. There aren't very many schools that are disrespected (maybe some of the new schools). The specialty program class I am currently in is composed of 80% of state school graduates.
I have realized now being on the other side that money is legitimately the only thing that matters. My predoc bill was around $250,000 and I decided to go to an in-state specialty program and pay pennies compared to others. It opens up the opportunity to achieve my ultimate goal (practice ownership and financial freedom) legitimately twice as fast had I decided to go to PENN.
While you are focused on this one task in front of you (picking a school), take a minute to zoom out and look at the big picture, and your goals. If you go to UF, are a great student, and actively try to get into OMFS, you will get in. You will NOT get in if you go to PENN and coast and rely on the school name to get in (you'll have several classmates applying to the same program). If you have to work your tail off at both, why not go to the one that allows you to buy that Porsche a few years earlier?
There was no one at my school (that I know of) who wanted to specialize that couldn't only because they went to my school.
Few things to remember, the dental community is small. If you go to UF, hang out with OMFS faculty/residents, and then go interview at 10 OMFS programs, someone is going to know faculty you hung out with, or know a UF trained doc. There aren't very many schools that are disrespected (maybe some of the new schools). The specialty program class I am currently in is composed of 80% of state school graduates.
I have realized now being on the other side that money is legitimately the only thing that matters. My predoc bill was around $250,000 and I decided to go to an in-state specialty program and pay pennies compared to others. It opens up the opportunity to achieve my ultimate goal (practice ownership and financial freedom) legitimately twice as fast had I decided to go to PENN.
While you are focused on this one task in front of you (picking a school), take a minute to zoom out and look at the big picture, and your goals. If you go to UF, are a great student, and actively try to get into OMFS, you will get in. You will NOT get in if you go to PENN and coast and rely on the school name to get in (you'll have several classmates applying to the same program). If you have to work your tail off at both, why not go to the one that allows you to buy that Porsche a few years earlier?
Graduate here. I encourage the expensive ivy option if specializing is the goal. Can’t comment or either of these schools in particular, and you can specialize from anywhere with some hustle, but there’s more to this game than the cost of tuition.
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You can do well from any dental school and get into OMFS. That being said, there was an overwhelming number of candidates from the usual “feeder” schools: Penn, Columbia, Harvard, UConn, UCLA. Over 50 of us came from these schools and almost all matched somewhere. Some schools have some incentives to help you get there a little more but not sure if it’s worth investing an extra 200K if that’s what you’re wondering. UConn and UCLA are cheaper than Penn and Columbia though I believe.
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Hmm not sure I agree with this. Yes on average techies make less than a specialist, but their income potential is much higher than any medical professional.
Tech is a scalable job unlike dentistry. In dentistry, you're mostly trading your time for money. Getting a tech company from $1M revenues to $10M revenues is much easier than getting a dental practice from $1M revenues to $10M revenues due to the scalability of the jobs.
Remember, the richest people in the world are all techies (Zucky, Bezos, Gates, Page etc.). As a techie you can create something that has an impact on BILLIONS of people. As a dental specialist the most amount of people you can directly have an impact on in a given year is a few thousand, depending on how many patients you see per day
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If you are a software engineer working for a company, your salary is definitely capped. Those people you listed started their own companies. That's way different and definitely not the norm. Most software engineers work for a company instead of starting their own business. On the contrary, most dentists own their own business.
Oh and another great thing about software engineering, the generation after you will always be better with technology/coding so you become replaceable as you get older. Why pay an older person more money when you can pay a fresh grad half the price who grew up scripting since the age of 3 and competing in hackathons since middle school?
Anyway, not to derail the topic any further. Good luck with whatever you choose OP.
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Doesn't appear to be all that capped to me.
Google Software Engineer Salary | $188K-$2.6M+ | Levels.fyi
Software Engineer compensation in United States at Google ranges from $188K per year for L3 to $2.6M per year for L9. The median compensation in United States package totals $303K. View the base salary, stock, and bonus breakdowns for Google's total compensation packages.
www.levels.fyi
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First off, this is google which the top 0.001% of software engineers are able to get hired at. If you want to compare apples to apples, the top 0.001% of specialists make more than this. Secondly, what you don't realize is that is exactly what a CAP is. If you work X number of years, you can only be expected to make X dollars. You go from making 200k as a starting software engineer to 500k after 10-20 years, but your salary will always hover in this range and this is assuming you are promoted this far. Can you make good money? Sure. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the fact that the sky isn't the limit in terms of income potential. As a dentist you have control over how hard you work, and how much money you want to make. If I want to be lazy, work 2 days a week as an associate I can. If I want to bust my balls, buy and run multiple practices, I can. You are not an employee, so there is no governing body that sets a salary for me.Doesn't appear to be all that capped to me.
Google Software Engineer Salary | $188K-$2.6M+ | Levels.fyi
Software Engineer compensation in United States at Google ranges from $188K per year for L3 to $2.6M per year for L9. The median compensation in United States package totals $303K. View the base salary, stock, and bonus breakdowns for Google's total compensation packages.
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I go to an Ivy because, of the 10 schools I got into, this Ivy was my cheapest option. I know, I'm lucky. What I can tell you is that from a numbers perspective, you are more likely to specialize out of an Ivy. That is a fact. More people from Ivies specialize. The reason for this is up for debate. What I can also tell you is that you can specialize from anywhere, and just because more people specialize coming out of Ivy League schools does not mean that you can't specialize from UF. Some argue it's the Ivy name. Some argue it is the culture. I personally believe it is the student. If some of my classmates who are going to specialize would have gone to UF and remained committed to specializing, they would have specialized from UF, too.
Regarding salaries, the money is in business. If you are going to be an employee, whether a dentist or a software engineer your salary is going to be capped. If you run your own business, and have a forward-thinking business mind, there is limitless potential. It's up to you how far you take this. More dentists run their own business than software engineers, but it is easier to develop a new technology than it is to come up with a new successful practice model. Fewer dentists have a salary cap, but techies have an easier path to striking it big, but it is rare.
Regarding salaries, the money is in business. If you are going to be an employee, whether a dentist or a software engineer your salary is going to be capped. If you run your own business, and have a forward-thinking business mind, there is limitless potential. It's up to you how far you take this. More dentists run their own business than software engineers, but it is easier to develop a new technology than it is to come up with a new successful practice model. Fewer dentists have a salary cap, but techies have an easier path to striking it big, but it is rare.
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It’s a numbers game. The year I applied to peds, 1/3 of UPenn’s class was applying to peds. That’s crazy! These schools self-select for gunners intent on specializing from Day One. At that point, it kind of hurts you when that many people are gunning for the same thing. Program directors aren’t going to invite all their applicants from a few programs. There will be some pre-selection from all the other applicants from your school.
Big Hoss
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I think that also has to do with 60% of the class being women. Basically every Penn class is predominantly women. You're right programs can't invite everyone, but still like 33/35 people matched into Peds which is also crazy.
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Respectfully disagree that the high specialization rate is solely determined by self-selection. School culture has a huge impact on the career choices of students. Even if you were unsure going in, if everyone around you is highly intelligent, ambitious, and gunning for some kind of further training/education beyond dental school, you are more likely to become influenced or motivated to do the same. Plus, the faculty at these institutions have alot of experience mentoring ambitious trainees and are often well connected with faculty at other schools because they are academically active in their respective fields.
If you go to a school where the majority are in the "Cs get degrees" mindset, I highly doubt this will have a positive impact. It actually makes you feel lonely and lost if you don't have other students with similar goals and ambitions to share the pains of going through the grind. My 2 cents.
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Not arguing with that at all. In fact, I agree. But when 20 people are matching into ortho it speaks for itself. Like you said, the school self selects for these individuals. Had they gone to state school x or y, they probably would have specialized from there!
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Probably because it was already on your application
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Lets not forget about stock options as part of your compensation. Not going to have that as a dentist.
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You're overestimating how long it takes to climb up the ranks. You can make L4-L5 level in the same amount of time it will take a student to go thru dental school and to finish residency. Also remember that those years are spent earning and saving money, whereas we spend it in school paying money and going in debt. Don't skip that part because it is probably the biggest factor here, savings in your 20's makes a huge difference towards your retirement goals in your 50's. Remember compounding interest, the earlier you start saving the better it is in the long run.
Speaking of compounded interest, it's relevant to this thread also. The 200k you save by going to the cheaper dental school will be worth ~$2.5 million dollars in 30 years if you invest it in the market (assuming nominal returns of 9% which is historically in line with the SP 500)
Do you want to go to the big name school, or do you want $2.5 million dollars extra for retirement?
Make this decision with your future in mind!
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I can't imagine you as a pediatric dentist lmfaoooo
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This is all so true. Stating to invest while in your early 20s and compound interest (and not having 6 figures of debt from schooling) all make a HUGE difference.
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definitely no
I have friends who go there, and they tell me there are MAJOR changes going through within administration and tbh they don't think Penn is as good of what ppl like to call "specializing powerhouse" as it used to be
you should see how you ride in dental school first before thinking about specializing, ik good number who dropped mindset after 1 year at a lot of schools
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D
deleted954913
haven't seen this meme in sometime.
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I was thinking the same thing.
Here's cuddly, ole @Big Time Hoosier greeting young patients for their 1st dental appointment.
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