UHSCOM vs NSUCOM

[umesh]

I just had a n interview at UHS and I think it went well. I am in a dilemma...I have been accepted to NSUCOM for 2000 and I am unsure about UHS vs. NSU.

I really liked the UHS campus. Also, UHS seems to have a warmer close-knit atmosphere than NSU. However, I really like NSU's integrated curriculum. Also, I dont know how well UHS's clinical 3rd program would work out - most students go away to other areas of the country for their rotations. Does this mean that UHS does not have a strong clinical training program locally?

Also, UHS would be a lot more expensive than NSU since I am a (south) Florida resident.


I'd like to hear from anyone who's also been interviewed at NSU and UHS. What were your experiences and/or advice?

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Umesh
[email protected]

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[mightymouse]

Umesh,

I was accepted to UHS this year and I will be attending beginning this summer. Whereas I did not apply to NSUCOM, I can honestly say that UHS is a fine, quality program in many regards. If I had felt otherwise, I would not have chosen to attend over my other accpetances. My advice to you is this: Go to the school that you feel has the best feeling to it. Youre gonna get to know everyone closely and you want to be someweher with people you CAN be close to in addition to a strong program. As to the clinical rotations, they belong to the third year, not now. I believe that the clinicals in KC are quality rotations in that it is a major city with a variety of hospitals. I would assume that students go to other areas of the country to experience other areas and to widen horizons rather than the assumption that the clinicals in Kansas Cityare inadequate. I admit to being biased, but I do hope to see you at UHS.

 

[umesh]

Thanks MightyMouse, I appreciate your help.
I still have to make up my mind and I am definitely not entering for the 1999 class ( it would be the 2000 class). BTW, you mentioned that you chose UHS over other schools that accepted you. What other schools accepted you?

 

[mightymouse]

I was accepted at TCOM and Western Univ.. I also had interviews scheduled at UOMHS in Des Moines and AZCOM but cancelled them after my acceptence to UHS because I felt that i had found the school I wanted to attend. I chose to forego allopathic schools although my stats would have made me competitive there as well. Also, as you know allopathic schools dont start interviewing often until after osteopathic schools have made offers. Tough to turn down a quality school such as UHS for the chance of receiving an interview months later.
UHS truly is a quality school; I feel one of the better schools around and certainly one of the better DO schools. For the record, when applying I looked at NSUCOM but found that it really wasnt what I wanted in a schhol. Not to say that it is a bad school, just not the right fit for me. Good luck.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

I'm not going to get into School X vs. School Y, but here is my assessment of why you should (and should not) consider NSU:

REASONS TO ATTEND NSU:

1. The facilities are amazing.

2. Affiliated with Broward Hospital System, the fifth largest hospital system in the world (so I've read). [Broward county includes Miami and Ft. Lauderdale] This means you can stay in the area for your rotations. If interested, you CAN opt for rotation sites in Orlando, Tampa, or even New Jersey.

3. Integrated learning environment puts you with students from pharmacy, PT, OT, PA, optometry, dentistry, etc.

4. NSU is the largest private school in Florida. Complete with four-year university, health professions division, and law school. [I'm not sure exactly why this matters, but I threw this in since some people bash DO schools because many are not part of larger academic centers -- so here's one that is.]

5. The school seems to be viewed favorably by independent organizations like AMSA and USN&WR.

REASONS NOT TO ATTEND NSU:

1. Cost of living around the school is astronomical. (But you say you are already living here?)

2. If you despise the idea of rural medicine (NSU requires you to spend three months in a rural medicine rotation).

3. Until the new library is completed, I hear that study space on the health professions campus is a bit cramped due to the number of health professions students from the many different programs.

4. "DO DUDE" will be attending there and this guy is brilliant. I am certain he will be ruining the curve for idiots like me. ;-)

Both UHS and NSU will give you a good education. Go where you think you are going to be happy.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited July 20, 1999).]

 

[DO DUDE]

I agree with Gregory on this one with the possible exception that his reason #4 should be reason #1 (In his reasons TO attend as opposed to NOT to...

)

 

[UHS2002]

You mentioned that you have been accepted at NSUCOM starting at the year 2000, which is a year from now. I was always under the impression that an applicant was accepted for the upcoming year, and then he could have his admission deferred only under very special circumstances.
Can you be more specific?
Also, I was under the impression UHS would not grant deferrals, so you would probably have to begin attending this year, if you have been accepted. Please, feel free to correct me, if I am wrong. It is just that if you are determined on beginning your medical studies in the year 2000 and one of the schools will not defer your acceptance, the choosing may be done for you.

 

[mightymouse]

I agree with Gregory, go where you feel you would be most satisfied. Both schools are comparable on reputation, facilites and programs so Ive heard. The deciding factor should be the one in which you feel most comfortable.

 

[MS4]

UHS2002 wrote:
>Also, I was under the impression UHS would
>not grant deferrals

Just a quick, admittedly off topic post:

UHS without question grants deferrals, provided that you've got a good reason. Of course, I won't name names, in order to "keep it professional".

 

[umesh]

Thanks a lot for everyone's comments.

Greg, I agree with you, I really like NSU since it is part of an institution with other colleges, and that it is in the Broward Health district. As for the 3 month rural rotation, I dont mind, even though I may not go primary care; UHS also has a similar program, I think. Not to get of topic too much, but the funny thing about all this is that the dean at Nova, just came over from UHS. I have heard he is big on research @DO schools.

Anyway, I guess the main attraction for me going to UHS is that it is 'away' from where I live with my folks - S. Florida. I am a little tired of living here for 5 yrs (but an expensive change). Is it a big factor when condsidering med school?... If NSU was in Tampa or Atlanta I'd definitely go there!

BTW, yes, I have not had a firm acceptance from UHS. I am still waiting. I did discuss with them that I need to defer a year. The admissions staff said that it is hard to get a deferral. I figure I dont have much to lose by telling them since, if they do not give a deferral, I can always reapply this summer. In fact, the person who advised me (not the interviewers!) personally believes that one should only enter med school when they feel ready, i.e. that deferrals are okay.

I know both schools are great. I just want to make sure I am making the right decision.

BTW, Greg, you mentioned that NSU's program has several classes shared with the other allied health professions. I mentioned that to another UHS alumni and he said he would hate to be taught like that. he loved the fact that UHS as an institution focused on just the DO program. What's your opinion?

 

[2003]

Did NSU just grant you a deferral with no questions asked or how did that work?

 

[DO DUDE]

The AMSA award NSU got was based on their emphasis on education with the other professions. I guess some people see it as an advantage and others don't.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

I think the integration of students from the differing health professions is an excellent idea and one that other schools should be following. Why? Well, if anyone has any experience in the health care field, they will notice how much of medicine is now a team approach to patient care. And in some instances, the leader of the team may not be a physician but a case manager or other professional. Therefore, I feel it is very important that student physicians be well aware of the training (and limitations of that training) of their future non-physician colleagues. All too often I think it is easy for us to get cocky and think that our decision should supercede everyone else. In medical matters, our decisions should hold. But in psychosocial matters, I think we should concede ground to case managers (who can be RNs, PAs, OTs, etc.), social workers, and others who are more familiar with this territory. So perhaps integrating classes is the first step towards building better teamwork in the health professions.

Awe heck, I should just come out and say it. Basically, it is a great way to meet women.

(Just kidding, everyone)

[This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited July 21, 1999).]

 

[mightymouse]

What Greg says is certainly true regarding the need for a team focus. However, I must disagree with the best way to achieve this end. All sorts of health specialists in the same program by definition would require that they all learn some basic approach that would apply to them all. I feel it would be better and more beneficial for each to master their own field through their own separate training initially. At some point down the road, (ie residencies and rotations for docs), all should come together for that all importantteam approach and learn from each other's more developed individualized approach. However, students learning the team approach while in school would defeat that purpose in that they have not yet "learned" their own unique area of expertise. We need some division in ideas, thoughts and practices in order to make for the best and most comprehensive patient care in a team environment.

 

[mightymouse]

What Greg says is certainly true regarding the need for a team focus. However, I must disagree with the best way to achieve this end. All sorts of health specialists in the same program by definition would require that they all learn some basic approach that would apply to them all. I feel it would be better and more beneficial for each to master their own field through their own separate training initially. At some point down the road, (ie residencies and rotations for docs), all should come together for that all importantteam approach and learn from each other's more developed individualized approach. However, students learning the team approach while in school would defeat that purpose in that they have not yet "learned" their own unique area of expertise. We need some division in ideas, thoughts and practices in order to make for the best and most comprehensive patient care in a team environment.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

I suppose I should add that plenty of the classes at NSU are for DO students only. Especially the important ones like clinical correlation, etc. Also, I understand MightyMouse's concern that integrating the classes would lead to some basic knowledge that must be common to all. For that reason, the students in the different programs take different exams, each designed to assess the knowledge they must know for their program. To put it another way, the DO students are expected to know gross anatomy at a much more sophisticated level than the OT and PT students. Furthermore, only medical and dental students do full cadaver disection. Students from the other programs study prosected cadavers.

 

[Henry]

Having interaction with other allied health students give me a better understanding to modern health care. I think this is a strong point of NSU. I don't feel I am neglected in any way just because I have anatomy with other students.

One of the reason that I select NSU is that, if a school need to maintain all these health professional programs in a high standard, the school needs to have strong financial backup and quanlify faculties. So far, this is what I see. NSU does offer a strong and firm education.

During our second year, the clinical correlation course is very interesting. Each week, about 8 students + a preceptors will go through medical cases. The course also corresponse with the lectures too. I really free great at this point.

One additional point, NOVA gives us a MONTH to study for the broad. I can tell you this will definitely make a different in your performance.

Do you have special reason to defer for a year? Does NSU already accept your deferment?

 

[UHS2002]

What do you do when you have med students in the same lectures as allied health students? Tell the allied health students to disregard half the lecture since they are not going to be tested on it, or tell the med students to cover additional details that are not being addressed during lecture???!!!

I think the team approach is the way to go for the delivery of health care, but every team has a leader and the physician should be the leader of a health delivery team. That is why we go through 4 years of med school and 3-6 of residency. Otherwise we could be PAs in 2 years, RNs in 2 to 4 and NPs in 2-6... Physicians lately have been too eager to get on the bandwagon of political corectness and "not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings" and now, as a consequence, we have battles in just about every state for prescription writing and independent practice rights from pharmacists to nurse practitioners. Heck, they say that they attended the same lectures with the med students and know the same important stuff. They only weren't tested on the "insignificant details"...

 

[mightymouse]

I couldnt agree with you more UHS2002. There is a time and place for a team approach, but while learning medicine each needs to learn their own aterial and then come together at some later time to learn to work together. I am not in favor of all learning from the same lecture. Its not fair to anyone involved

 

[Henry]

In NSU we don't take all our medical science together. We have separate histology, biochem, physiology, microbiology. However, we do share part of the anatomy course and the neuroanatomy together.

For example, dental students will join our anatomy lecture when we are discussing about head and neck. Only PT and OT students will join with for the entire semster. All the lecture are taught according to the medical program leverl. Therefore, actually, we make the Pt and OT learn more than they need to. However, we have separate exam time. Their exams are easier than the medical program. We have the hardest test amoung all the HPD division.

 

[Medicine Man]

Hello everyone, I am new to this discussion but as the SGA President at NSUCOM I thought I might be able to shed some light on a few of the issues here.

First, just to clarify, Broward county does not include Miami. Miami is in Dade county, which NSU also has many residencies, internships and clinical rotations sites in.

Second, dental students DO NOT disect cadavers. They use prosected heads as well as some of the medical student disections. Medical students are the only ones who do disection of any kind.

Third, let's discuss this "team approach" that everyone is so keen on talking about. Mixed classes, they are few and far between, but they do exist. NSU is home to 9 different health professions programs. A few of them sit in on anatomy, histology and neuroanatomy with us. Is there a big deal here folks? This is not uncommon at many medical schools just so you know (allopathic and osteopathic). It in NO WAY hinders your learning or encroaches upon your osteopathic principles. Remember, these are not classes in which major osteopathic principles are taught so it shouldn't matter if you have high school students sitting in! There is no team approach here people. It's cutting down on the duplication of lectures from one program to another. It is taught at a med school level and everyone else just has to deal with that. They get a little something extra! Other than those classes there are no mixed classes. I think many of you have the misconception that we are all brought together and told, "Look, you're going to have to work as a team so we're gonna teach you like one!" This is not the case at all. However, there is knowledge to be gained about the other professions that you will be working with. You have a slight understanding of their education process. That's it folks!
Don't get caught up in the team thing because it really doesn't exist, nor would I want it to. I think it's great to be on campus will all the other professions and get to know them and what they go through but being in one or two classes with them is really a non-issue! Nuff said.

As for you decision on which school to attend: All I can say is that I am thrilled with the school I chose (as most people are). However, and it has been echoed here many times, pick the school that fits YOU! When it comes down to it, it's how you perform, not where you go!

It is true that we have had the former Dean from UOMHS for the past year. His name is Dr. Anthony Silvagni and we consider him a great assest to NSUCOM.

I would be happy to entertain any questions you might have about NSUCOM. Thanks for reading my babble.

[This message has been edited by Medicine Man (edited July 24, 1999).]

 

[umesh]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice. In reply to 2003's qs, no I had to appeal to the board to get the deferral. It's a mixed bag...UHS didnt give a deferral (I just got accepted there). No big deal...I think NSU is the better choice for me, although a tough choice it was since UHS is also a great school.

 

[Diane Ev]

Both are good schools. I have been able to gain experience in clinical research at UHS before I start school as an MSI. Although the medical classes are big (largest med school in MO with 240!) there is a family type atmosphere with direct emphasis on assuring student satisfaction/well being.

As Greg and others will surely agree with me, it is not the school you go that matters (all are excellent schools) but what you make out of your education. Good luck and please feel free to email me any other questions you may have.

Diane E

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[Synergy]

I think its a bad idea to have PTs OTs nurses, etc. taking the some of the same classes as physicians. This can be the basis of their argument that they "take the "exact" same classes" so why can't they have more autonomy and power in the medical field. By the way, do any PTs dissect cadavers anywhere? An acquaintance of mine claims that he dissects them, and I thought they did at some schools.

 

[Medicine Man]

You've got to be kidding me!? Do you really think that nurse practitioners are going around saying that they should have more extensive prescribing rights because once upon a time they took histology with medical students. Please! I can promise you that no group that is seeking the expansion of practice rights is doing so on the basis of taking a class or two with medical students. I am very involved in all of the existing scope of practice issues on a local and national level and I can tell you that you're way off the mark on this one. If you don't think that taking a class or two with other health professions students is right for you than just say so...don't extrapolate it to say that it is the basis for a national debate when it is not.

 

[UHS2002]

Well, Medicine Man, it is bad to make promises you can't keep...

Having been in the allied health care field for several years before med school, I can tell you for a fact that PA's and NP's do go around saying just that! They may not make it part of their "official" arguments for pushing legislation, but that is what they say to other health care providers, to themselves and, which is worse, to patients. They will not say it to the docs, who will obviously know better than believe it, but public opinion has proven a much stronger force than the AMA or AOA. There is a lot of resentment brewing out there, all boiling down to remuneration. There is plenty of PAs out there saying that they received the same training as physicians, minus classes that are not that relevant anyways, so they know enough that they can work independently.

You tell patients long enough that you have the same training as their physician, minus a few "research oriented classes, you know" and the patients are going to believe it. Furthermore, if they can substantiate that by saying "we take the same classes", even if they forget to mention that what they actually did was take a couple of basic science classes together, and even then they weren't tested to the same standards, it makes their claim even more impressive.

I am not making an argument against NSUCOM or any other school, allopathic or osteopathic, which combines class for the several degrees offered but, ultimately, schools combine classes to save money, although it certainly sounds nicer to say that it is done for some sort of educational purpose...

I understand that the perception is that med students are not being "educationally" short changed when they take classes with other health professions' students, since the classes are taught at the med school level. However, I think when you pack 70 or 80 more students in a classroom, that are not even in the same program as you are, you are getting somewhat shortchanged.

 

[Henry]

USH2002,

I can't agree with you. Majority of the patients will want to see a real doctor. If they know that you are a PA, they will hesitate. Just ask yourself, if your father is in emergency room for CHF, do you want a PA to help him or a fully trained physician? I will certainly prefer a physician.

PA's training is limited and all PAs know about that. If they go out and say that they have the same training as physician, they are behaving like some "chiroP", who also called themselves as Doctor and tell their patients they can treat almost any disease.

Let me describe it in a more logical term. Medical school training is 4 years + residency. How long is the PA training? You tell me!

In time, patients will find out the truth.

 

[UHS2002]

Henry,

I thing you missed the point. Nobody was discussing whether PAs are competent to be real doctors or not, this was never the subject of this thread.

I am glad that you are informing me on how long it takes to become a PA. I can tell you it takes a lot longer than reading this thread and getting a clue on what we are talking about before you jump in, totally off the subject, and completely misconstrue my post.

 

[Henry]

I don't think I miss any infor in this thread. I merely stated another view-point to your argument.

You don't have to agree with me but you have no right to criticize my reading capability.

Let me state it clear one more time. If PAs claimed they have received the same training as physicians, they are misleading the public.

Therefore, it doesn't matter whether PAs took some basic medical science courses with the med students, their training are still different.

[This message has been edited by Henry (edited July 31, 1999).]

 

[dragonking]

Wow UHS2002,

You sound like one person, DOgBOY. Because someone disagrees with your opinion, your neurogenic disorder immediately begins to submerge. I call this "DOYBOY Syndrome".



[This message has been edited by dragonking (edited July 31, 1999).]

 

[Henry]

dragonking,

I think only Dogboy can qualify to have such disease, not anyone else in here. Your comment is a little off here.

[This message has been edited by Henry (edited July 31, 1999).]

 

[UHS2002]

Henry,

I really still don't see what is the big disagreement here. I never claimed that PAs are in any way equivalent to physicians, I just claimed that, when they take classes with the med students, it makes them think they are, for one, and gives them ammunition to "mislead" the public.

Why do you think that chiro schools have been trying to turn their curriculum into a weak imitation of med schools' curricula?! Because the general public has a hard time telling the difference. Then, they go around calling themselves "primary care doctors" and you know?! They have repeated this so much that there are plenty of people out there thinking that they ARE doctors. Well, they are DOCTORS, just like someone with a PhD in English is a DOCTOR, but they are not physicians. So, technically, they are not lying when they say they are doctors, but they certainly are lying when they say that they are physicians. Unfortunately, when the general public hears "primary care doctor" they think "primary care physician".

So, going back to my original argument, even though it doesn't make a difference, in the short term, whether allied health care professionals take some of the same classes with med students, in the long run, IMO, it gives out the wrong message.

This is just my opinion and I really don't expect anyone else to agree with me. Since I had also the choice between schools, this was one of the factors that entered into my decision, although it wasn't the main factor.

I am sorry if I came across as criticizing your reading capability, but if you re-read your reply to me, it wasn't in the most kind or neutral of tones either. Give me the benefit of a modicum of intelligence as to know the difference between the training of a PA and an MD or DO. Furthermore, even though I would prefer a doctor treating my father's CHF, what you prefer is not always what you get. I would actually prefer a board certified cardiologist who specializes in the treatment of CHF, unfortunately, in the ER, I would probably get an EM resident who hasn't slept in two days...

You are giving the general public more credit for their knowledge than they actually have. For starters most people don't even know the difference between an intern, a resident or an attending. All of their badges say MD. If the badge says DO, then the patient will probably be asking for a "real doctor" too, just as if it said PA-C on the badge...

 

[UHS2002]

Dragonking,

sorry to shatter your illusions of being the Sherlock Holmes of the O-Net, but I am not DOGBOY. I have been posting on this board for a long time now, and people know me well. Now, it seems to me that YOU appeared after DOGBOY vanished...

As for my "neurogenic disorder", I am really impressed, you are starting to sound like a doctor! Just remember when you talk to your patients and colleagues it is
EMERGE
and not
SUBMERGE
You see, SUBMARINES SUBMERGE (or fish, for instance), syndromes, signs, character, etc EMERGE.

 

[Medicine Man]

I think we are all getting a little off-topic here. As exciting as it is to listen to you belittle eachother I'd rather get back to the issue. My point is that the opinion of the general public is not of prime importance here. If the general public believes that PA's or NP's are just as good and they want to go see one that is in a practice by themselves then go ahead...because there aren't any!! Not in my state at least and that's why I work with my state osteopathic medical association -- to keep it that way. Medicaid is not going to reimburse if you are just seeing an NP or PA without an overseeing physician. They would just be opening themselves up for huge lawsuits. The point being that the people who make the rules know the education level of each profession and that's where it ends. I could care less if a PA/NP is telling patients that he is just as good as me...but I tell you one thing...it won't be any of the PA/NP's working for me!

Having close interactions and becoming good friends with many PA students at my school I can tell you that none of them are under the misconception that they are on equal footing with physicians. They see there place in the health care field and they are happy to be there (as would you after only 1 year of book work and a year of intership). If anything, taking a class or two with us makes them realize how little they are taught. When their anatomy lab list contains 450 structures and ours contains over 1500 then I think they begin to see the difference.

I do not feel "shortchanged" in any way by sharing a few seats in a class or two. You people are really blowing this whole thing out of proportion. These people are NOT NOT NOT using these arguments to try and change policy. If they are doing it at all (and I believe on a small minority are)they are talking to "their" patients, and that's fine with me. When they start convincing state and federal legislative bodies, then we have a problem.

[This message has been edited by Medicine Man (edited August 02, 1999).]