May 1, 2018
5
0
I have looked into this fairly extensively and I am aware of the DWS situation and obviously the fun times with 189 limits and the need to find a 190 path.

However, the one area that is a bit of a black box is the substantially/partially comparable decision. The FRCR has no obstetrics so I assume substantially comparable is not going to happen. The impression I get is that partially comparable with FRANZCR part 2 only is the ideal outcome, so that getting a fellowship and doing the exams in that year would be an option. Is this something that is realistic?

Now, if only there was a way to tag txm88 - but it doesn't seem like there is. Oh well, a long shot, here is to hoping he still reads this.
 

txm88

Radiologist - DNB, FRCR (UK), FRANZCR (Australia)
2+ Year Member
May 30, 2018
31
15
Status
Attending Physician
Hi SavantPenguin - glad to see fellow radiology colleague on the forum

Are you a UK CCT? If you have some consultant experience in the NHS you may have a good chance at being classified as substantially comparable and therefore possible to obtain FRANZCR within 12 months

If you are partially comparable, theoretically it is possible to do the FRANZCR II and get the Australian experience in 1 year though you might be pushing it - usually completed in about 2 years. Even though you may feel like you have the knowledge to pass the part 2, it is ultimately up the college on how much Australian top-up training you need and this is assessed case-by-case

Obviously there is a visa issue that underlies all of this - not an expert on this I'm sorry (I was lucky that I was PR thanks to my wife).

You may have already seen the specialist IMG regulations on the RANZCR website
The 'IMG Assessment Policy' document in here is particularly useful if you haven't seen it already

 
May 1, 2018
5
0
Hi SavantPenguin - glad to see fellow radiology colleague on the forum

Are you a UK CCT? If you have some consultant experience in the NHS you may have a good chance at being classified as substantially comparable and therefore possible to obtain FRANZCR within 12 months

If you are partially comparable, theoretically it is possible to do the FRANZCR II and get the Australian experience in 1 year though you might be pushing it - usually completed in about 2 years. Even though you may feel like you have the knowledge to pass the part 2, it is ultimately up the college on how much Australian top-up training you need and this is assessed case-by-case

Obviously there is a visa issue that underlies all of this - not an expert on this I'm sorry (I was lucky that I was PR thanks to my wife).

You may have already seen the specialist IMG regulations on the RANZCR website
The 'IMG Assessment Policy' document in here is particularly useful if you haven't seen it already

I currently have a couple of years left to a UK CCT and all my medical experience is UK based.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have previously seen the Deloitte report on the outcomes people get and very few were found to be substantial. Most received outcomes for exams and so I hoped that was a done deal.

The one thing I was not fully aware of is the 1b section of the assessment policy on CPD as a consultant, which would seemingly make it much harder to move straight after CCT

My plan up to this point was CCT, apply widely for fellowships, then file for specialist pathway in the window before starting fellowship in the hope that I can take some off before fellowship to prepare for the FRANZCR full time. However, with that 1b requirement it seems like there is a solid chance of not being allowed to sit the FRANZCR at that point yet.

However, if I do get a fellowship and I file before the fellowship - would it be realistic to expect for that fellowship to count as a period of upskiling? It would be a non-accredited post at a training site.

Would you say filing straight after CCT and pre-fellowship is doable? Did you do a few years as a consultant?
 
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txm88

Radiologist - DNB, FRCR (UK), FRANZCR (Australia)
2+ Year Member
May 30, 2018
31
15
Status
Attending Physician
If your fellowship is at an Australian location, you can definitely use it towards your period of upskilling - as to be a fellow you will need AHPRA medical registration (limited registration) which is exactly the same type of registration you will need if you are completing your upskilling via the specialist pathway

I think it is not a bad idea submitting your documentation for specialist pathway right after CCT and using your fellowship as the period of upskilling - its a long process so start as early as you can if you are set on it.

The process usually is: submit paperwork to college --> college determines comparability (substantial or partial) --> use college assessment to find a job (fellow, staff specialist, senior registrar etc.) - recruitment companies can help --> college approves job --> apply for limited registration --> work 12-24 months and complete the part 2 --> FRANZCR --> obtain specialist registration

You won't find many 'accredited' posts willing to take specialist pathway IMGs as they are reserved for local RANZCR trainees to complete their training

Specialist IMGs often have to find 'odd' roles such as staff specialist, fellow, senior registrar etc. (especially in rural/regional locations) - lots of recruitment companies in Australia (they love UK doctors) can help you with this. A quick search online will show you that many rural locations consider partially comparable radiologists for consultant equivalent roles.

I think when you mention 1b (correct me if I am wrong) that is obtaining fellowship through the 'area of need' pathway. THis is an alternative route to fellowship - we are talking about the 'specialist pathway' (1a on the document) which does not have a minimum consultant experience requirement (but of course more experience is better than none)

There are many freshly graduated UK CCTs that come to Australia and obtain their letters here within 1-3 years. This is very specialty specific and there are some high profile cases of highly qualified UK consultants struggling to obtain Australian qualifications (mostly bureaucracy). Ultimately this is the minority
 
May 1, 2018
5
0
If your fellowship is at an Australian location, you can definitely use it towards your period of upskilling - as to be a fellow you will need AHPRA medical registration (limited registration) which is exactly the same type of registration you will need if you are completing your upskilling via the specialist pathway

I think it is not a bad idea submitting your documentation for specialist pathway right after CCT and using your fellowship as the period of upskilling - its a long process so start as early as you can if you are set on it.

The process usually is: submit paperwork to college --> college determines comparability (substantial or partial) --> use college assessment to find a job (fellow, staff specialist, senior registrar etc.) - recruitment companies can help --> college approves job --> apply for limited registration --> work 12-24 months and complete the part 2 --> FRANZCR --> obtain specialist registration

You won't find many 'accredited' posts willing to take specialist pathway IMGs as they are reserved for local RANZCR trainees to complete their training

Specialist IMGs often have to find 'odd' roles such as staff specialist, fellow, senior registrar etc. (especially in rural/regional locations) - lots of recruitment companies in Australia (they love UK doctors) can help you with this. A quick search online will show you that many rural locations consider partially comparable radiologists for consultant equivalent roles.

I think when you mention 1b (correct me if I am wrong) that is obtaining fellowship through the 'area of need' pathway. THis is an alternative route to fellowship - we are talking about the 'specialist pathway' (1a on the document) which does not have a minimum consultant experience requirement (but of course more experience is better than none)

There are many freshly graduated UK CCTs that come to Australia and obtain their letters here within 1-3 years. This is very specialty specific and there are some high profile cases of highly qualified UK consultants struggling to obtain Australian qualifications (mostly bureaucracy). Ultimately this is the minority
Thanks for this. This is really invaluable.

There are two things I am left wondering about and to be honest they are questions quite specific to my circumstances. As it looks my partner will likely CCT in a DWS exempt specialty a few years after me, which has the upside of possibly allowing me to use the spousal DWS exemption. The downside is that getting PR before she is a fellow might be a real 19AA headache.

However, because of the timeline I am looking at, 2 years of upskilling (in a tight 3 year window) might end up being a tad painful logistically - do you mind me asking, how much upskilling did the college require from you?

I realize you did not have PR issues, but do you know if in the case of fellowships all PR holders have to be offered a job before it would go to a non-PR holder? I realize this will require some flexibility and fellowships like MSK would probably fill with domestic applicants.
 

txm88

Radiologist - DNB, FRCR (UK), FRANZCR (Australia)
2+ Year Member
May 30, 2018
31
15
Status
Attending Physician
I worked as a specialist for a few years in my home country before taking the FRCR and finally moving to Australia and passing FRANZCR - the time from application to Fellowship was around 4 years but I am not from the UK so it would be faster for you I imagine

I don’t think you should put too much worry in 19AA and 19AB - this is not applicable when you are making salary working in the public system - only applies when your income stems from billing Medicare in private practice. It’s omly something to think about post FRANZCR and you choose to transition into private practice.

For the readers here:

In a nutshell 19AA means you can only work in private practice without holding college fellowship if you are a non-PR/citizen. As soon as you become a PR, you are ineligible to work in private practice without holding Fellowship (FRACGP, FRANZCR ,etc)

19AB means you need to work in a DWS location for 10 years from date of first registration in order to bill Medicare (private practice) - this does not apply if you work in public as public doctors don’t bill Medicare

It is unlikely you will work in a private practice whilst completing your upskilling on limited registration - they usually only employ FRANZCRs. 19AA is mostly for non-PR, non-specialist IMGs with limited registration who choose to work in (rural) private general practice as opposed to the hospital.

I have never heard of a DWS exempt specialty unless things have changed - the DWS boundaries change depending on the specialty as it is a dynamic map depending on population and workforce supply. For example the DWS for GPs would be very rural but DWS for a specialist might be in the suburbs. In the city I work DWS is 15 min drive from the CBD

This map will give some more ideas - luckily there is a diagnostic radiology map
 
May 1, 2018
5
0
I worked as a specialist for a few years in my home country before taking the FRCR and finally moving to Australia and passing FRANZCR - the time from application to Fellowship was around 4 years but I am not from the UK so it would be faster for you I imagine

I don’t think you should put too much worry in 19AA and 19AB - this is not applicable when you are making salary working in the public system - only applies when your income stems from billing Medicare in private practice. It’s omly something to think about post FRANZCR and you choose to transition into private practice.

For the readers here:

In a nutshell 19AA means you can only work in private practice without holding college fellowship if you are a non-PR/citizen. As soon as you become a PR, you are ineligible to work in private practice without holding Fellowship (FRACGP, FRANZCR ,etc)

19AB means you need to work in a DWS location for 10 years from date of first registration in order to bill Medicare (private practice) - this does not apply if you work in public as public doctors don’t bill Medicare

It is unlikely you will work in a private practice whilst completing your upskilling on limited registration - they usually only employ FRANZCRs. 19AA is mostly for non-PR, non-specialist IMGs with limited registration who choose to work in (rural) private general practice as opposed to the hospital.

I have never heard of a DWS exempt specialty unless things have changed - the DWS boundaries change depending on the specialty as it is a dynamic map depending on population and workforce supply. For example the DWS for GPs would be very rural but DWS for a specialist might be in the suburbs. In the city I work DWS is 15 min drive from the CBD

This map will give some more ideas - luckily there is a diagnostic radiology map

That's the list of specialties in acute shortage - no DWS restrictions on those.

Thanks for your help.

Final question: there's loads of resources tailored for the FRCR, but finding FRANZCR books is very hard. Did you find there was a lot of overlap? How bad was the pathology paper?
 

txm88

Radiologist - DNB, FRCR (UK), FRANZCR (Australia)
2+ Year Member
May 30, 2018
31
15
Status
Attending Physician
After some more reading I am mistaken - thanks for letting me know

Also to answer your question, fellowships are attainable for IMGs however less advertised and you may have to contact institutions individually/find contacts

on the other hand, rural/regional jobs are relatively easier to find
 
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