Ultimate comparison: CCOM vs. Western vs. KCUMB

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stmclovin

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I was fortunate enough to receive 4 interviews this season (DMU, CCOM, KCUMB, Western) three of which are an acceptance (Western, KCUMB, and CCOM), one waitlist (DMU).

For me, it will be between Western, CCOM and KCUMB. I wanted to compare only academic and clinical opportunities of the above schools. Cost and state are of the least importance for me.

Here is what I want from a medical school:
1) Higher than average board scores
2) Matching into competitive specialties and residencies… I want to go into Ophtho.
3) Proximity to great research schools (for Summer)

I know that many people would tell that any of these schools are capable of graduating a great doctor and it all depends on the students. But I think I am trying to make the best informed decision. Here are my impressions of the three schools:

CCOM

Found: 1900
Question: what is the board score average for this school?

Pros:

- All the 3rd year cores done in Chicago
- Extensive list of rotations plus possibility of doing elective locally in NW, Rush, Loyola, etc.
- Safe area
- Proximity to great research schools
- Notetaking service
- Good reputation (from what I hear)
- Someone on SDN mentioned competitive environment: I thrive on competition. But I enjoy friendly competition, not cut-to-throat kind of competition.

Cons:

- Below average overall technical level of the school (dial-up slow internet, wireless internet not in all buildings old TVs in the lecture halls and anatomy labs, no flat screens).
- The school kind of looks sad. Old buildings, new construction ones probably would not finished anytime soon to matter for me anyways. I got an impression that school does not like to spend money on technology at all.

Western
Found: ~1977
Unanswered question: Only ~2700 people applied to this school for 220 seats, comparing to 3700 people for 160 seats in Chicago. I would think California school should receive much more applicants than that. I do not understand why a Cali school would have less people applying to it than Chicago school.
Question: what is the board score average for this school?

Pros:

- Everything is new, good technical level, though no flat screens in anatomy labs
- Core rotations are pretty good and you can do them on LA area.
- UCLA, USC and Loma Linda rotation sites are close
- Proximity to great research schools
- Higher than average board scores (not sure by how much)

Cons:

- It would extremely hard to get matched into California if I want to go into something like ophto. So I think I am most like to return back to Midwest for my residency so education in Cali may not be as important.
- No official notetaking service
- A lot of unnecessarily fancy people (Example: when I was interviewing, some guy walks into the room… expensive suit, expensive groomed hair… I thought he was a DO or MD who was going to interview us. As a result, it was just one of the applicants). I am on the contrary a pretty simple guy for the most part.

KCUMB

Found: 1960's
Special thing: Case-based curriculum which I thought was an interesting idea. Not sure if this is my kind of learning since I got used to the standard classes. I feel that if you keep jumping from subject to subject, it would be hard to glue individual case together and have a good understanding of overall anatomy. I guess one can argue either ways.

Pros:

- Good technical level of the school, updated equipment, many flat screens throughout campus
- 71% of students specialize after medical school (which I think is the highest out of all DO schools)
- 5% board scores than other schools
- Notetaking service

Cons:

- Some negative information that leaked into KCUMB thread (not sure how much of it 100% true). I feel that if students are allowed to retake tests, there is nothing terrible about that. I feel that students actually learn the material better that way instead of just giving up on a topic after getting a bad grade). Plus the board scores showed for the last 5 years students scores 4-6% higher than the national average
- Not that many research schools in the area (KU)
- A lot of people have to travel for their core rotations

My overall questions:
1) How critical is it go to a school with an established reputation like CCOM vs. newer school (Western) in terms of residency matching?
2) Which school has the most residency programs?
3) How do people wait for financial aid packages? It seems like I have to put down a hefty non-refundable deposit before I find whether I get any scholarships. I thought about risking sending out deposits into 2 schools and wait till the financial aid package arrives. I guess DO schools do not encourage the FA bargaining.

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KCUMB was founded in 1916, not 1960. KCUMB was one of the "founding five" osteopathic medical schools. Since KCUMB and CCOM are very old, they have a lot of graduates out there which could help when it comes to getting a residency since those graduates would have already forged a path for you. KCUMB and CCOM have great match lists with a lot of their graduates specializing. Doing rotations during third and fourth year in other states wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing since you get to know attendings at other hospitals and the wide network would allow you to see where you might want to do your residency. Of course,I'm biased since I'm in the KCUMB class of '12.
 
In regards to your traveling for core rotations, yeah you might have to go outside of KC, but you will most likely be in a single city perhaps commuting to 2 - 3 hospitals max.
 
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your question #2 doesnt make any sense. You can apply to any residency program from any school
 
your question #2 doesnt make any sense. You can apply to any residency program from any school

i know, but which of the school name will give the biggest bump in the application.
 
- A lot of unnecessarily fancy people (Example: when I was interviewing, some guy walks into the room… expensive suit, expensive groomed hair… I thought he was a DO or MD who was going to interview us. As a result, it was just one of the applicants). I am on the contrary a pretty simple guy for the most part.

This 'unnecessarily fancy person' was another applicant. I'm a little confused about that one. What does this mean?

Optho is next to impossible to match as a DO in the MD world, and very difficult as a DO in the DO world. In my class, one of my classmates matched into DO optho and it took a lot of networking, audition rotations and summer research to match into his program. I think he started preparing even before med school and even then matching was not a guarantee.
 
Just withdrew from KCUMB and opened a spot for you. good luck if you choose that school. I've got a CCOM interview coming up shortly. I'll let you know about how I feel about both schools by comparing them
 
By withdrew, I meant withdrew my acceptance.
 
This 'unnecessarily fancy person' was another applicant. I'm a little confused about that one. What does this mean?


I just think he was a little surprised to see the "hollywood type" and would prefer the school be a more "average Joe" type as far as the student body is concerned.
 
Western
Found: ~1977
Unanswered question: Only ~2700 people applied to this school for 220 seats, comparing to 3700 people for 160 seats in Chicago. I would think California school should receive much more applicants than that. I do not understand why a Cali school would have less people applying to it than Chicago school.

.

I wouldn't worry too much about that, the average GPA & MCAT of students accepted is like 3.5 & 28, which is pretty high compared to most DO schools. A lot of UC students looking to stay in california. In my interview probably 75% were from UCI, UCLA, UCSD or Cal.

I was accepted to KCUMB and put my deposit down with them last year, I also recently interviewed at Western. Let me preface by saying I am from Southern California, so maybe I am biased. At this point I would probably choose Western and forfeit my deposit at KCUMB based on a few things.

1) Location: Pomona isn't the greatest, but I own a house and rental property in the south bay area of LA and my wife has a job here. LA also has a plethora of hospitals and clinics. Not to mention the weather is great.
2) Technology: The school records audio and video for every lecture which is synced with the lecture slides so you can see what the prof. is pointing too. I am the type that goes to class, but if I am commuting and hit traffic and am an hour late, or have an emergency and have to miss class at least I know I won't be behind. It is also great for reviewing for exams.
3) Curriculum: They have a semi-systems based curriculum, which I gather was recently implemented 2-3 years ago. 1st year is getting the basics in anatomy, genetics, path., pharm etc. and 2nd year is systems where the knowledge gets integrated. Additionally, they have clinical instruction beginning day one which relates to the system you are learning at the time. They claimed to have had the students with the top 2 highest COMLEX scores in the country last year (take as you will) and also said their students score well about average.
4) 3rd & 4th year rotations: 3rd year you get to do rotations at a number of different hospitals around so. Cal., and they have a online system where you can trade sites with other students. Also the affiliated hospitals are pretty good. You also get one elective. 4th year you can do pretty much anywhere in the country you want and they will get it setup for you.

The campus is not much at Western, but the buildings are nice inside. I would probably give KCUMB the edge in campus looks. KCUMB would have a lower cost of living which is nice. KCUMB has some good hospital affiliations and having been around longer has a larger alumni base. KCUMB typically puts a large percentage of students into specialties, but I got the feeling Western's curriculum would prepare me just as well if not better for boards compared to KCUMB. I also liked the 3rd & 4th year rotations better at Western. No dress code or attendance policies at Western.

Anyway, just my perception. Like a lot of people said I think you have to go with your gut. I went in to my interview at Western not expecting to like it better than KCUMB, but came out impressed and would now likely choose it.
 
I still don't understand why board scores are so important to everybody. I mean, if there is a school that regularly does very poorly and a lot of people fail every year, then that's one thing, but is any school significantly better than other schools on a regular basis?
 
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I just think he was a little surprised to see the "hollywood type" and would prefer the school be a more "average Joe" type as far as the student body is concerned.

that's what I meant. I do not own at a $1000 suit and never spent more than $15 on a haircut.
 
Cons:

- Below average overall technical level of the school (dial-up slow internet, wireless internet not in all buildings old TVs in the lecture halls and anatomy labs, no flat screens).
- The school kind of looks sad. Old buildings, new construction ones probably would not finished anytime soon to matter for me anyways. I got an impression that school does not like to spend money on technology at all.


it is always a mystery as to what Midwestern does with all of its money...I think the President gets $700,000 a year..and the rest goes into who knows what...definietly not technology or improving curriculum
 
This 'unnecessarily fancy person' was another applicant. I'm a little confused about that one. What does this mean?

Optho is next to impossible to match as a DO in the MD world, and very difficult as a DO in the DO world. In my class, one of my classmates matched into DO optho and it took a lot of networking, audition rotations and summer research to match into his program. I think he started preparing even before med school and even then matching was not a guarantee.

getting into ophtho will be hard no matter where you go.
 
This 'unnecessarily fancy person' was another applicant. I'm a little confused about that one. What does this mean?

Optho is next to impossible to match as a DO in the MD world, and very difficult as a DO in the DO world. In my class, one of my classmates matched into DO optho and it took a lot of networking, audition rotations and summer research to match into his program. I think he started preparing even before med school and even then matching was not a guarantee.

my uncle went to CCOM and is an opthalmologist...so it can't be that hard...obviously a DO trying to apply for MD opthalmology residency will be difficult, but DO's have their own opthalmology residencies
 
I just think he was a little surprised to see the "hollywood type" and would prefer the school be a more "average Joe" type as far as the student body is concerned.

uhmmm..am I mistaken? I thought we were supposed to dress our best during interviews....who cares if someone is wearing a $1000 suit...obviously he/she can afford it....and you can't...big deal?

hollywood type? everyone puts their best face during interviews...it is the only and only chance for them to remember you by face..i see nothing wrong with this....

In fact, interviewees joke about those students that didn't dress up properly...not vice versa
 
uhmmm..am I mistaken? I thought we were supposed to dress our best during interviews....who cares if someone is wearing a $1000 suit...obviously he/she can afford it....and you can't...big deal?

hollywood type? everyone puts their best face during interviews...it is the only and only chance for them to remember you by face..i see nothing wrong with this....

In fact, interviewees joke about those students that didn't dress up properly...not vice versa

There is a distinct difference between a "real" person dressing up for an interview and someone that is obviously "fake" from the get go. I believe this is what we are getting at. Now I hope the OP didn't wear blue jeans to an interview and am also guessing the OP knows the difference between someone dressing for an interview and someone who just got done doing a "Hair Club For Men" commercial.
 
He probably interviewed with Archer, who is in his 40's, looks like a doc, and is big pimpin all-around.
 
uhmmm..am I mistaken? I thought we were supposed to dress our best during interviews....who cares if someone is wearing a $1000 suit...obviously he/she can afford it....and you can't...big deal?

hollywood type? everyone puts their best face during interviews...it is the only and only chance for them to remember you by face..i see nothing wrong with this....

In fact, interviewees joke about those students that didn't dress up properly...not vice versa

My point was that, the way several people were dressed, they looked like they were making $200k+/yr while having medical school and residency behind their them. I hope their MCAT/GPA/ experience look as good as their $1000 suit. I have a feeling that people going into medical school should be a little more humble than that.... Anyhow, this is not the point of this thread. That's my personal feeling about things. I mean I got accepted into that school so I was not dressed not that bad. I think I spent $250 on the whole suit, $50 shirt, $25 tie, $80 shoes and a $15 haircut. Lets come back to the main topic.
 
There is a distinct difference between a "real" person dressing up for an interview and someone that is obviously "fake" from the get go. I believe this is what we are getting at. Now I hope the OP didn't wear blue jeans to an interview and am also guessing the OP knows the difference between someone dressing for an interview and someone who just got done doing a "Hair Club For Men" commercial.

My point was that, the way several people were dressed, they looked like they were making $200k+/yr while having medical school and residency behind their them. I hope their MCAT/GPA/ experience look as good as their $1000 suit. I have a feeling that people going into medical school should be a little more humble than that.... Anyhow, this is not the point of this thread. That's my personal feeling about things. I mean I got accepted into that school so I was not dressed not that bad. I think I spent $250 on the whole suit, $50 shirt, $25 tie, $80 shoes and a $15 haircut. Lets come back to the main topic.

I still fail to see the difference...maybe he was succesful doing something else? you can't always assume....perhaps he's an attorney?

who cares if he took more effort in his personal looks....i still fail to see how you can judge someone as being "fake" without even knowing them...seems kinda shallow...ey? :oops:
 
I still fail to see the difference...maybe he was succesful doing something else? you can't always assume....perhaps he's an attorney?

who cares if he took more effort in his personal looks....i still fail to see how you can judge someone as being "fake" without even knowing them...seems kinda shallow...ey? :oops:


Stereotypes exist. It's a human thing not a shallow thing. I'm sorry I was trying to interpret for the guy not start meaningless banter.
 
I still fail to see the difference...maybe he was succesful doing something else? you can't always assume....perhaps he's an attorney?

who cares if he took more effort in his personal looks....i still fail to see how you can judge someone as being "fake" without even knowing them...seems kinda shallow...ey? :oops:

lets just return to OP.
 
Stereotypes exist. It's a human thing not a shallow thing. I'm sorry I was trying to interpret for the guy not start meaningless banter.

lets just return to OP.

agreed...but the stereotypes need to go out the window if you want to be succesful in medicine

I work for a physician, but he doesn't practice medicine...he owns a lab company...he dresses like crap..and if you saw him on the streets..you'd probably think he's a bum....that is until you see him in his $400k lamborghini

I also know a few attorneys who switched to medicine as well....some went to private schools and are just used to being preppy...no big deal
 
You do realize that list is made by a freaking poster on this site, right? And based on said poster's opinion only?
 
I just think he was a little surprised to see the "hollywood type" and would prefer the school be a more "average Joe" type as far as the student body is concerned.

God you're a little whiner. Meet some new people... You're not going to only work with "avg joe" people for the rest of your life.
 
I am also curios on why CCOM was placed #4 and Western #14 here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=460484&highlight=ranking&page=2

bc CCOM is one of the original schools and has an unsurpassed reputation in the midwest. Western, by reputation, can't compare (ducks...).

Seriously though.. the oldest DO schools are typically the best bc they have had the longest to set up inroads in the community. DO schools that are OLD and in CITIES are even better, because they have established themselves within large medical communities. PCOM in Philly... NYCOM in New York... CCOM in Chicago... DMU in Des Moines... you get the idea. *These are examples and not a complete list of schools in cities that are good.

There are good schools in rural areas, but they simply do not have the same quality of rotation sites throughout major cities.

New schools are only considered "lower tier" in the DO community because they have yet to prove themselves...
 
what's the point of this thread, you DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICES. You have one acceptance, TAKE IT. Unless you want to gamble you'll get off the waitlist, or just pray CCOM will take you in the year they decided to compete against MD applications and jack their stats, you don't really have an option here. your one acceptance is your ONLY accpectance so far. Take it, move on later.
 
what's the point of this thread, you DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICES. You have one acceptance, TAKE IT. Unless you want to gamble you'll get off the waitlist, or just pray CCOM will take you in the year they decided to compete against MD applications and jack their stats, you don't really have an option here. your one acceptance is your ONLY accpectance so far. Take it, move on later.

to be clear, I am not on a waitlist at those two schools. Still waiting to hear after the interviews. I expect to hear by MArch 1st from two other schools and it is the date my COMP depasit is due.
 
You have to have "average joe" doctors too. How comfortable would a patient wearing a $5 t-shirt feel in front of a doctor wearing a $300 shirt and $150 tie?
 
You have to have "average joe" doctors too. How comfortable would a patient wearing a $5 t-shirt feel in front of a doctor wearing a $300 shirt and $150 tie?

I wouldn't care. I wear what I want and he wears what he wants. You have insecurity issues?
 
to be clear, I am not on a waitlist at those two schools. Still waiting to hear after the interviews. I expect to hear by MArch 1st from two other schools and it is the date my COMP depasit is due.

ask for an extension.

You have to have "average joe" doctors too. How comfortable would a patient wearing a $5 t-shirt feel in front of a doctor wearing a $300 shirt and $150 tie?

just as much as you hate a doctor wearing a $300 shirt and $150 tie (and how you know how much his outfit cost is beyond me) I would never go to a doctor who wore a shirt and jeans to his practice.
 
I wouldn't care. I wear what I want and he wears what he wants. You have insecurity issues?

seriously, next we're going to hear about how the frat boys stuffed him into a locker in grade school so he hates jocks too.
 
You have to have "average joe" doctors too. How comfortable would a patient wearing a $5 t-shirt feel in front of a doctor wearing a $300 shirt and $150 tie?

It can also show that the physician is very successful. so showing off your clothes can be a statement of your success which usually correlates with how good of a doctor you are, the better you are, more patients will come, especially in the field of plastics, derm, surgery, etc.

When I was volunteering in a ER, the trauma surgeon had to come in on call, and he was pimped out in at least a $2000 suit...and basically everyone shut up, stopped what they were doing and stared in awe, including me. Obviously, he has earned his keep.
 
3) How do people wait for financial aid packages? It seems like I have to put down a hefty non-refundable deposit before I find whether I get any scholarships. I thought about risking sending out deposits into 2 schools and wait till the financial aid package arrives. I guess DO schools do not encourage the FA bargaining.

I know that DMU has a schoarship program but you have to have at least a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 overall and science GPA. I have never heard of any other schools giving out scholarships. From what I can gather the price tag is the price and there is really no bargaining, not even at MD schools. There may be some exceptions for people with really amazing stats though. I have no idea what your stats are but it is most likely, unless you are a superstar, that there will be no scholarships or assistance other than loans. I would not send out 2 deposits with that hope in mind.

Overall, was there any school that gave you a more welcoming feeling as if you just knew you would fit in or like it there? Didn't any of the schools give you that, "This is the one." feeling? Maybe you are thinking this out too much. I think the 3 schools you are considering are all very good schools and all will give you the education you want and need and the residency opportinities you seek. I have heard there are research opportunities at KCUMB although I don't know that for sure. Even if there aren't any set up wherever you end up going to school, make your own research opportunity! It shouldn't be that difficult.

Also, if the people who came to the Western interview just didn't seem like the type of people you would enjoy spending the next 2-4 years with, maybe it's not the school for you. If I had gone to an interview where I felt the people were very 'showy', I probably would have left with a very negative feeling and not have been very interested in the school so I can kind of understand where you are coming from. Overall, you should know what's right for you and no one on this forum will really be able to tell you that.
 
I know that DMU has a schoarship program but you have to have at least a 30 MCAT and a 3.5 overall and science GPA. I have never heard of any other schools giving out scholarships. From what I can gather the price tag is the price and there is really no bargaining, not even at MD schools. There may be some exceptions for people with really amazing stats though. I have no idea what your stats are but it is most likely, unless you are a superstar, that there will be no scholarships or assistance other than loans. I would not send out 2 deposits with that hope in mind.

Overall, was there any school that gave you a more welcoming feeling as if you just knew you would fit in or like it there? Didn't any of the schools give you that, "This is the one." feeling? Maybe you are thinking this out too much. I think the 3 schools you are considering are all very good schools and all will give you the education you want and need and the residency opportinities you seek. I have heard there are research opportunities at KCUMB although I don't know that for sure. Even if there aren't any set up wherever you end up going to school, make your own research opportunity! It shouldn't be that difficult.

Also, if the people who came to the Western interview just didn't seem like the type of people you would enjoy spending the next 2-4 years with, maybe it's not the school for you. If I had gone to an interview where I felt the people were very 'showy', I probably would have left with a very negative feeling and not have been very interested in the school so I can kind of understand where you are coming from. Overall, you should know what's right for you and no one on this forum will really be able to tell you that.

all DO schools have very little research going on, including KCUMB. I have an extensive research background (several pubs, including couple 1st authors) and I wanted to get some research done in a big name PI lab.

Each of these schools had something interesting going for it. Either it was a location (i.e. California) or how well the school is established. I live in midwest so I can relate to Chicago more than I can to California. But I alsways wanted to leave in California, even though I am almost certain that it would next to impossible for me to match there.
 
all DO schools have very little research going on, including KCUMB. I have an extensive research background (several pubs, including couple 1st authors) and I wanted to get some research done in a big name PI lab.

Each of these schools had something interesting going for it. Either it was a location (i.e. California) or how well the school is established. I live in midwest so I can relate to Chicago more than I can to California. But I alsways wanted to leave in California, even though I am almost certain that it would next to impossible for me to match there.

didn't they tell you about the new research building they are constructing at Western? Should be done by next year.
 
On a sidenote, lets leave the discussion about the attire out of this post.

Also as far as DO's having hard time matching into allo ophto, I can image that it is hard. I know of at least one confirmed FMG who matched into ophto. Of course, the guy had to destroy the boards, but he got in. Plus, there are unfilled ophtho spots left over almost every year.
 
didn't they tell you about the new research building they are constructing at Western? Should be done by next year.

I thought it was most educational building, but now recall that they did mention something about research. I saw some contruction and they showed us the plan... It is supposed to be finished in 2009. Plus, it will take them forever to recruit the research faculty so I doubt it is will be anything exciting as far as research goes at least in the nearest 2-3 year after opening. Also, why would anyone want to do research at Western if there is UCLA and USC.
 
I used to wear a $5000 armani when I'd volunteer.

Funny, I remembered what people were wearing when I volunteered in the hospital stock room (not the most exciting place).

Ok, lets come back to the OP... please.
 
I thought it was most educational building, but now recall that they did mention something about research. I saw some contruction and they showed us the plan... It is supposed to be finished in 2009. Plus, it will take them forever to recruit the research faculty so I doubt it is will be anything exciting as far as research goes at least in the nearest 2-3 year after opening. Also, why would anyone want to do research at Western if there is UCLA and USC.


whats the point of going DO if you're interests lie in research? You're better off applying to an MD school that is dedicated to those aspects in medicince. They did say the research was for faculty, and it would be completed by 2008.
 
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