Under grad from foreign school - what are my chances ?

[sharmi]

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Hi there,
I wanted to seek some advice regarding my options as a non-traditional pre-med. I intend to apply for Med School next year. I apologize for this long post.

Background
I am 37 years old, married with kids and working as an Operations Manager at a Forture 100 IT company. Have a pretty stable mid-six figure job. I had graduated about 12 years back from a reputed school in India as an under-grad as well as completed a grad degree in Chemistry. My master's program was in organic chemistry. Thereafter, I chose a career in IT (with IBM, in India) as a software consultant, mostly because I couldn't refuse the lure of a great job / prospects / money at that time. Transferred to the US soon after (9 - 10 years back) and have been working in the same industry ever since.
Volunteering/Shadowing
I have volunteered at Agnews (was the California state center for institutionalizing the developmentally challenged) in 2006-2007 and found out that I really liked spending time there. I shadowed and worked together with the recreational therapist to develop and execute activities for people with disabilities (Down, Angelman, etc.). I did this for about 2 years on a weekly basis along with a full-time job. Recently, I have started volunteering again at a Kaiser Permanente hospital facility every week.
Education/Post Bacc
At the same time I got myself enrolled in a Post Bacc Program at my local state university in fall 2006. I had done Chemistry for 6 years during my undergrad and graduate school years (10 years back), physics and Math during the first 2 years of Undergrad. I had never taken any Biology before, so I decided to start there. I took 5 semesters of Bio courses: Animal Bio, Cell Bio, Physiology, Genetics and Immunology and got an A in the first 4 and a B in Immunology. Then I wanted to take an upper division course in Chemistry (since my degree was so far back) and I took Biochemistry - got an A in that as well. I also took 2 semesters of English with an A in both. Right now my Post Bacc GPA stands at 3.8 and so far I have taken 29 semester units. I plan on taking Calculus in the spring semester.... and possibly statistics as one of my in-state schools specifically requires that. I got my foreign degrees evaluated to their US equivalent by WES and it came to 3.0 for Undergrad (minus the Post Bacc – with the Post Bacc it comes to a 3.2) and a 3.6 for the Graduate piece.
Research
Minimal - none in the past 10 years. I do not have any research experience other than my Graduate thesis project.
Work/Leadership
All the while I worked (and still do) full time (which is like 60 – 70 hours/week, sometimes more). I have heard that leadership counts to the ADCOMS and if that's the case I have been in managerial / leadership positions for the past 9-10 years on various projects involving Sales, Marketing, Product Development and Finance departments. I have travelled extensively primarily for work to various top-notch companies on consulting engagements while I was with IBM (for 8+ years). Since I am in IT, I live and breathe computer software everyday, have several certifications - but probably none of these count for med school.
LOR
I have two great LORs from two of my professors in India, one from the prof. of physiology at the state university I attend, one from the recreational therapist at Agnews I used to work with and one from my ex-manager (now a sr. partner at IBM).
MCAT
Going on to MCAT – I took the test in September of this year and did not do too well – got a 28Q (11 each in the Sciences and only a 6 in VR). I plan to retake the MCAT in January 2010 and right now am studying towards that. I want to get a 32+ score. If I get that, I plan to apply as early as possible in June, next year.
Family
I have a family, so would love to stay in-state (California), but am open to relocating elsewhere as well. I have 2 kids and also have been sponsoring another child's (unrelated) lodging, food and education at a boarding school in India for the past 5 years.My husband is a director at one of top 5 Hi Tech companies and would be financially supporting our family during this whole deal, if I get through.

On to my questions... I have some.
How would you rate my chances at getting into an MD program in the US? I do not want to join a DO program, but an MD program anywhere in the US is what I am shooting for. Would I be considered too old for this? What else should I do to make my application more attractive? Any other classes that I should take ? Since my undergrad school was in a foreign country, how will that weigh in to the ADCOMS?

Any advice is welcome.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Hi there,
I wanted to seek some advice regarding my options as a non-traditional pre-med. I intend to apply for Med School next year. I apologize for this long post.
I am 37 years old, married with 2 kids and working as an Operations Manager at a Forture 100 IT company. Have a pretty stable mid-six figure job. I had graduated about 12 years back from a reputed school in India as an under-grad as well as completed a grad degree in Chemistry. My master's program was in organic chemistry. Thereafter, I chose a career in IT (with IBM, in India) as a software consultant, mostly because I couldn't refuse the lure of a great job / prospects / money at that time. Transferred to the US soon after (9 - 10 years back) and have been working in the same industry ever since. I suppose I could say that I am pretty good at my job since I have made significant progress in my career over the past 10 years. But over time, I realized this is not what I want to see myself doing 20 years from now. I long to have people interaction by working with them directly as opposed to working long hours trying to re-engineer business processes at the Forture 100 companies. I miss the academic environment and would like to work in the world of teaching / research / clinical practice.
To test out I started volunteering at Agnews (the California state center for institutionalizing the developmentally challenged - which closed this year) in 2006 and found out that I really liked spending time them. I worked together with the recreational therapist to develop activities for people with disabilities (Down, Angelman, etc.) that would help to improve and maintain their physical, mental, and emotional well-being, recover basic motor functioning and reasoning abilities, build confidence and socialize effectively so that they can enjoy greater independence and reduce or eliminate the effects of their illness or disability. I did this for about 2 years on a weekly basis along with a full-time job till the numbers of the inmates dwindled as the state was closing down Agnews. Recently, I have started volunteering again at a Kaiser Permanente hospital facility every week.
At the same time I got myself enrolled in a Post Bacc Program at my local state university in fall 2006. I had done Chemistry for 6 years during my undergrad and graduate school years (10 years back), physics and Math during the first 2 years of Undergrad. I had never taken any Biology before, so I decided to start there. I took 5 semesters of Bio courses: Animal Bio, Cell Bio, Physiology, Genetics and Immunology. I got an A in the first 4 and a B in Immunology. Then I wanted to take an upper division course in Chemistry (since my degree was so far back) and I took Biochemistry - got an A in that as well. I also took 2 semesters of English with an A in both. Right now my Post Bacc GPA stands at 3.8 and so far I have taken 29 semester units. I plan on taking Calculus in the spring semester.... and possibly statistics as one of my in-state schools specifically requires that. I got my foreign degrees evaluated to their US equivalent by WES and it came to 3.0 for Undergrad (minus the Post Bacc – with the Post Bacc it comes to a 3.2) and a 3.6 for the Graduate piece. I do not have any research experience other my Graduate thesis project.
All the while I worked (and still do) full time (which is like 60 – 70 hours/week, sometimes more). I have heard that leadership counts to the ADCOMS and if that’s the case I have been in managerial / leadership positions for the past 9-10 years on various projects involving Sales, Marketing and Finance departments. I have travelled extensively primarily for work to various top-notch companies on consulting engagements while I was with IBM.
I have LORs from two of my professors in India, one from the prof. of physiology at the state university I attend, one from the recreational therapist at Agnews I used to work with and one from my ex-manager (now a sr. partner at IBM).
Going on to MCAT – I took the test in September of this year and did not do too well – got a 28Q (11 each in the Sciences and only a 6 in VR). I plan to retake the MCAT in January 2010 and right now am studying towards that. I want to get a 32+ score. If I get that, I plan to apply as early as possible in June, next year.
I have a family, so would love to stay in-state (California), but am open to relocating elsewhere as well. Financially, I will have to sell off my house, but that’s Ok. My husband is a director at one of top 5 Hi Tech companies and would be financially supporting our family during this whole deal, if I get through. Granted that he would have to get a new job if we have to relocate, but he is open to that as well. I have 2 kids and also have been sponsoring another child's (unrelated) lodging, food and education at a boarding school in India for the past 5 years.
On to my questions... I have some.
How would you rate my chances at getting into an MD program in the US? I do not want to join a DO program, but an MD program anywhere in the US is what I am shooting for. Would I be considered too old for this? What else should I do to make my application more attractive? Any other classes that I should take ? Since my undergrad school was in a foreign country, how will that weigh in to the ADCOMS?
Any advice is welcome.

Long post.

I would try DO. Why not DO?

Not to say you can't do MD.

 

[sharmi]

Because DO is not an internationally recognised medical degree.
I have lived in at least 3 countries so far.
Who knows where I will be 10 - 20 years from now ?

 

[Stratego]

With a 6 verbal score and both a subpar MCAT and undergrad GPA (including the postbac), I'd sorry to say that your chances are very poor for getting a US allopathic acceptance. Further, many med schools have requirements that you have to earn 60-90 of your college credits at a US accredited college, though I believe you might be able to get around this at some schools if your current school accepts your foreign credits in transfer. Each med school has different rules about this. Also, if you are not a US citizen or permanent US resident, your path will be even more difficult as international applicants are held to a higher standard.

How would your chances stand of getting an acceptance to a med school in India?

If you do a search in this forum with the term "international" you will find more information. Particularly look for a post by mouseben, who succeeded in the process.

Here is a link to her post: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=584858&highlight=mouseben

 

[sharmi]

I am a US Citizen. Also, going to med school in India is not even a possibility for any non-trad, citizen or not. The education system is very rigid there, and you did not have bio, physics and chem at high school - there is no chance. I did not have bio in high school.

I called up several of the California schools as well checked the web-sites of some OOS schools (in Massachusetts and Pennsylvania) - most require a year's worth of units at a US school - that's about 30 semester units. There is one that requires 90 credits at a US school. Also, I believe that the Texas schools also require 90 credits at a US school. I will call up some more schools in the Western states (Oregon, Washington) and check out what they require.

I have been on this path for the last 3 years - taking classes, volunteering, shadowing, etc. along with a 60+ hour work week and would probably not stop now unless I get rejected from everywhere or get a very low MCAT score. I took the test a bit early (wasn't too well prepared) and landed a 28Q - I hope to get a better score in January.

Still, I appreciate your feedback and would like to see what others have to say as well.

 

[Looking Glass]

I am a US Citizen. Also, going to med school in India is not even a possibility for any non-trad, citizen or not. The education system is very rigid there, and you did not have bio, physics and chem at high school - there is no chance. I did not have bio in high school.

I called up several of the California schools as well checked the web-sites of some OOS schools (in Massachusetts and Pennsylvania) - most require a year's worth of units at a US school - that's about 30 semester units. There is one that requires 90 credits at a US school. Also, I believe that the Texas schools also require 90 credits at a US school. I will call up some more schools in the Western states (Oregon, Washington) and check out what they require.

I have been on this path for the last 3 years - taking classes, volunteering, shadowing, etc. along with a 60+ hour work week and would probably not stop now unless I get rejected from everywhere or get a very low MCAT score. I took the test a bit early (wasn't too well prepared) and landed a 28Q - I hope to get a better score in January.

Still, I appreciate your feedback and would like to see what others have to say as well.

You definitely have a chance. You may not be able to get into a school in California because it is very competitive there, but with you work experience and age, it should make you more competitive despite your GPA or MCAT. I have similar problems with low GPA and I have received many acceptances already because I worked for several years and did a lot of volunteering and research. The beauty of the American system is that it rewards hardwork and persistence. If you do not get in next year, you can retake your MCAT, score higher, take more classes to get As and apply again.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Sharmi: why did WES give you such a low evaluation? Did you try to contest it? When I used WES in 2004 for applying to medical school, I read between the lines and it was clear that they can really do you an injustice if you did not arrange for your undergraduate school overseas to send them detailed information on your degree (grading scales etc.).

You essentially only need the prerequisite classes with good grades and a strong MCAT score. Doing more classes is not that helpful. Also, I concur that being willing to relocate is almost a prerequisite. There are just too many amazingly qualified, cookie-cutter applicants. Medical schools want variety, but it's simply so much harder coming in from a very successful career elsewhere; some schools don't take the time to see what you can offer, while others are suspicious. It is possible, however, and you clearly are well on your way to making it happen.

Good luck!

 

[sharmi]

Thanks for all your responses.
I do intend to take the MCAT again in January to improve my score.
I did not contest my WES Evaluation - maybe I should have. I could try getting it evaluated by some other similar agency as well for a second opinion.

On the pre-reqs :
I have taken Chemistry (6 years) and Physics (2 years) during my under grad and masters. My masters was in fact, in Organic Chemistry.
Should I retake all of those again ?
I took one semester of Biochem here and got and A.
Will that count towards the pre-reqs ?
Also, will it be considered bad if I take the physics and some of the chemistry (if I have to) at a community college instead ?
The timings for these courses at the state university are simply out of sync with my work schedule.

 

[NTF]

I think you've got a decent shot at MD schools if you get the MCAT up.

But realize that your chances at a California school are slim. 10-15% of my medical school class are transplants from California who couldn't get into homestate med schools. They all have like 3.7+ GPAs and 30+ MCATs and ECs to boot. The competition is pretty steep there. I'm not saying don't apply, but just prepare yourself for the very realistic probability that you'll have to uproot your family and travel very far.

 

[njbmd]

If you retake the MCAT, you have to be sure that your verbal score comes up and that your overall score comes up too. A poorer score will knock you out of virtually any chance of acceptance other than offshore.

Your graduate work does not do much for your overall uGPA calculation. You can add your post bacc work to your undergraduate work but graduate is looked at separately and is not given much consideration in terms of medical school admission.

Your LORs need to be recent and no more than two years old. Get the people who wrote your previous letters to send updated one directly to a LOR repository and waive your right to see these. You also need one or two from current professors so make sure that you get this done.

Work leadership is not the same a leadership in your community. Most people who have advanced degrees will wind up in management positions in most companies in this country unless they have severe problems. Make sure you have some community leadership volunteer experience.

You also need to understand that you are in no position to pick and choose your medical degree. You are a longshot for DO as well as MD. Osteopathic medical school may be your best shot at entering medicine but you are no "shoo in" for those schools with your 3.0 uGPA and below average MCAT.

 

[blueflower77]

Hi Sharmi,

First of all, I want to say how impressed I am with your accomplishments. You are a very successful individual, especially one who was able to create such a career (both you and your husband, actually) coming from another country. People who have outwardly criticized your pre-medical qualifications need to recognize how hard you have had to work in order to achieve what you have and it should be a good indication how hard you are willing to work to get into medical school. I was also born and raised in another country and my parents are also both foreign educated (MDs) in another country and have done well here in passing all of the USMCLEs and now work as attendings. And they did it in their late 40s. SO, it's never too late or too early and yes, they will take you. Because all you need is 1 admission spot. Just find the right school - that's the hard part. Believe it or not, there are very very many immigrants like us on positions of leadership at the hospitals, major universities and very good universities. And if a deserving candidate is applying, they will not stop to consider you if you are from another country, contrary to what some people on this board have written (maybe not in your particular post, but in others that I have read). Those programs are not terribly hard to find. And yes, my parents moved to California and that's where we lived for a while. My mother and many of her friends from other countries who studied with her for USMLE's have been able to match in Calif. and stay for the most part in the cities were they lived (we lived in Encino, close to LA). I know for you it's not residency you are seeking but medical school, but the idea is the same. You being a US citizen helps a ton but I'm sorry to say you are still representing your nationality in their eyes. And that's good - because that gives you diversity. In my case, my English may obscure my nationality but my face and name definitely do not. 🙂 And that could be taken both ways, I guess.

My point is, there are many ideas on the posts here, but I think calling up the schools where you want to go is the best way to find out what they want and if they want you to retake the classes, what classes and if your Masters work will qualify. I tend to agree that from what I've read and heard, graduate degrees are treated differently in the eyes of admissions as undergrad. It's not to say they are not important. They are important, just not in pre-requisite type courses. Probably retaking organic I in a tech school after a Masters in organic is silly, but that would definitely score you an A, assuming you wouldn't know more than the profession who will feel challenged in having you in the class, but that's another story. 🙂 But maybe you could ask a medical school if they would consider an audit sufficient. Simply, as long as organic I is written in your transcript then it would be sufficient. For an audit, you don't need to do anything, just simply sit in the class and listen. No graded work. Another idea you could try is calling the medical school where you want to go and asking them if you could "test out" of the class. Meaning, call up the local tech school, take just the tests and get a grade that way, without lab, without going to class or all the superfluous homework. You could probably ask a professor in a local community college if they could do that for you. This is kind of a long shot, but the worst you can get is a "no." I know I did that in college in Calif. in a foreign language (my native). I took a test from UCLA professor to test out and get at least 3 credits, and I found a few mistakes in the language on the test and after I explained all of them (and how she's probably forgotten the language already), she gave me 6 credits and all As in her course. I have never seen the woman or took the course. 🙂 That's foreign language, I know, but you know what I mean? I won't know until you try.

I have full faith that you'll make it, sharmi. I think you have great motivation and already 3 years invested. Just keep trying and asking people. Get in contact with some of your friends who are physicians and ask them definitely. There are a TON of Indian doctors out there who can advise you and give you the right people to go to. It's not what you know sometimes, but who you know. I know that in US things work in a more proper way (and that's why I love this country) but even here knowing people helps every once in a while. 🙂

Good luck and all the best to you.

 

[rookiealltheway]

Hey Sharmi

I appreciate your efforts and thinking about changing your career after all you have achieved in another field.
I am in a similar boat right now. Most of the schools ask for 90 under graduate credits from an american or canadian university. they do not accept graduate credits. If the school you are attending right now can issue credit for the credit you have already achieved in your under graduate degree, that would be awesome but yes, the pre reqs ( bio, phy, chem, eng) should be from an american or canadian univ.
My under grad degree is from India but I ve a masters from an american univ. The schools I would be applying to ask for 90 credits from american or canadian univ. So I have started working on them ( just begun doing them).
Try looking at the school websites you are interested in and see their educational admission requirements. That should give you a better idea of what they are asking for and what you need to do.
Good luck!!

 

[sharmi]

Thanks for all the feedback that you have provided.
Incidentally, I recently enrolled in the UC Berkeley Extension program and will be taking classes starting January. They will not be giving me any credit for any non-US coursework previously taken.
I have also spoken to Cal State East Bay about their Post Bacc Pre Med program and have a verbal confirmation that they will grant me credits for some of my foereign coursework. I might take a couple of classes there, if it works with my schedule.
But so far, the Berkeley extension class schedule works great for me - since most classes are on nights and weekends. I have decided to retake all my remaining pre-reqs there. I have a 3.8 GPA from my 30 credits taken at San Jose State University, hopefully I can pull it up to a 3.9+ with 30 or more credits from Berkeley. I will be applying next year before I complete 1 or 2 of my pre-reqs - but I do intend to take them all by next Spring (2011). I am studying for the MCAT now - will take it on the first available opportunity next year (Jan 29) and get it out of the way - so that I can concentrate on my classes.
Do any of you have an idea about the UC Berkeley Extension program ?

 

[sunsfan]

Are you open to completing a second bachelor's degree?

In your local state school, you could transfer some of your India courses to fulfill GE requirements so that all you need to take to complete a BS Bio degree are the science courses. You will gain not only a new degree but also a US-recognized-no-more-questions-asked GPA. This is really what's important to AMCAS and the med schools.

You may need 3-4 years, though. At 37, you may not find this option very appealing.

Also, it is IMPERATIVE that you do really well on the MCAT. Good scores will erase doubts they may still have about how you compare to US students.