Undergrad GPA Indicative of Med School Success?

[CreoleDoc]

Hey everyone. I was recently accepted into medical school for the fall of 2011. My relatively good MCAT, awesome personal essays, and my perfect interview sealed the deal for my acceptance I think. I am just curious to hear fellow students opinions on whether or not a weak undergrad GPA is indicative of how well your med school experience will be. In my opinion, I think i'll be just fine, as the classes that brought my GPA below med school average were Orgo, biochem, and a few other no science... . I believe that hardwork and dedication ultimately will win it for me. If you all have any stories of people you knew with GPA's lower than 3.3 who blew med school away i'd appreciate it. We need to motivate eachother to percevere, not tear down eachothers hopes. Anything is possible, so for those of you discouraged right now, keep your head up.

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[Kevin Baker]

Hey everyone. I was recently accepted into medical school for the fall of 2011. My relatively good MCAT, awesome personal essays, and my perfect interview sealed the deal for my acceptance I think. I am just curious to hear fellow students opinions on whether or not a weak undergrad GPA is indicative of how well your med school experience will be. In my opinion, I think i'll be just fine, as the classes that brought my GPA below med school average were Orgo, biochem, and a few other no science... . I believe that hardwork and dedication ultimately will win it for me. If you all have any stories of people you knew with GPA's lower than 3.3 who blew med school away i'd appreciate it. We need to motivate eachother to percevere, not tear down eachothers hopes. Anything is possible, so for those of you discouraged right now, keep your head up.

I have a buddy a few years older than me who failed out freshman year, ended up doing a lot of drugs and making some questionable life decisions, who eventually transferred somewhere else, got his !@#$ together, applied DO only (due to grade forgiveness) and is now in his first year of a ROADS residency. It was pretty inspiring and he's helped me out a ton in this process.

edit: It should be ROAD not ROADS

 

[ejay1518]

I have a buddy a few years older than me who failed out freshman year, ended up doing a lot of drugs and making some questionable life decisions, who eventually transferred somewhere else, got his !@#$ together, applied DO only (due to grade forgiveness) and is now in his first year of a ROADS residency. It was pretty inspiring and he's helped me out a ton in this process.

I agree, even your MCAT score won't indicate how well you do in med school cause people change all the time and (hopefully) get their !@#$ for Step 1. I have a friend who got a 24 how his MCAT (on his 3rd try at that) and ended up with a 99% on his USMLE and is now in his first year at a great allo rads residency.

 

[SLC]

I agree, even your MCAT score won't indicate how well you do in med school cause people change all the time and (hopefully) get their !@#$ for Step 1. I have a friend who got a 24 how his MCAT (on his 3rd try at that) and ended up with a 99% on his USMLE and is now in his first year at a great allo rads residency.

When I interviewed, I was constantly told that evidence links higher MCAT to higher COMLEX and USMLE scores. They were actually quite emphatic about that point.

I was also told that High undergrad GPA is a less reliable predictor of success, especially after year two when the rubber hits the road.

 

[aspiringOSTEO]

1

 

[painmd87]

When I interviewed, I was constantly told that evidence links higher MCAT to higher COMLEX and USMLE scores. They were actually quite emphatic about that point.

I was also told that High undergrad GPA is a less reliable predictor of success, especially after year two when the rubber hits the road.

For your consideration:
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...rgraduate_institutional_mcat_scores_as.5.aspx

Bivariate analyses (Table 1) demonstrated moderate correlations between sciGPA and the individual MCAT scores. Additionally, there was moderate correlation between sciGPA and USMLE Step 1 scores. There were substantial correlations between individual MCAT scores and USMLE Step 1 scores, including the individual Verbal Reasoning scores. Correlations between individual MCAT scores and the USMLE Step 1 scores were slightly higher than institutional MCAT scores, in part due to adjustment for restriction in range

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED464943.pdf

This study examined the possible relationship between scores on the Nelson-Denny Reading Test (current forms G and H) and performance on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) and the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) Step 1 examination scores. Participants were 730 medical students at a mid-Atlantic university, and for 572 of these students, MCAT scores were also available. All four Nelson-Denny Reading Test variables (Vocabulary, Comprehension, Total Score, and Reading Rate) were positively correlated with the MCAT verbal reasoning score. Nelson-Denny Vocabulary and Total Scores were positively correlated with the USMLE Step 1 score, but the Nelson-Denny Comprehension score was not significantly related to the USMLE Step 1 score. MCAT scores have been shown to be correlated with USMLE scores. Results suggest that medical schools should consider using an index of reading to predict applicants who will achieve success in medical school.

The GENERAL thought is that MCAT somewhat predicts USMLE which strongly predicts the ability to pass board certification post-residency. This is the general idea of it... not the law.

 

[Torr]

When I interviewed, I was constantly told that evidence links higher MCAT to higher COMLEX and USMLE scores. They were actually quite emphatic about that point.

I was also told that High undergrad GPA is a less reliable predictor of success, especially after year two when the rubber hits the road.

Don't know about the MCAT but I definitely don't think a high UG GPA will ensure anything in med school. I've had several friends that had very high GPAs, got into medschool and really struggled. You have to be mentally and emotionally ready (physically wouldnt hurt either) for what you're about to take on.

I guess the logic is if you're comfortable with standardized tests then you won't be so thrown off by the USMLE/COMLEX.

 

[TornadoChaser]

In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about it. Each individual test and class has its own set of challenges. As Rev Run says, "Do your best, and forget the rest."

 

[MedIsInMyBlood]

I think I have an even better story for you OP... I have a story of a person who did terrible in undergrad for a few years and is now a great doctor ( he is my family doctor currently and is much better than any family doc I've had in the past...I also have friends who are his patients and they think he's great too). We started talking about school when I told him I was going to medical school. He told me a bunch of things about his medical school experience and also told me he was a terrible undergrad student for a few years and had a 1.5 GPA one year.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I have a buddy a few years older than me who failed out freshman year, ended up doing a lot of drugs and making some questionable life decisions, who eventually transferred somewhere else, got his !@#$ together, applied DO only (due to grade forgiveness) and is now in his first year of a ROADS residency. It was pretty inspiring and he's helped me out a ton in this process.

What does the S stand for? I've heard people argue for ROADE before, but never ROADS.

 

[Sinfest]

If anything were to be indicative of ones success it would be the MCAT and not GPA. We all know that grades are not standardized across different colleges. Some schools are not competitive and easy, meaning it's not difficult for someone to get an A. Other schools are very competitive and have ridiculously high means on exams, making it hard for someone to get an A. The MCAT on the other hand is a standardized exam; everyone is roughly on the same playing field.

Again, I'm not saying something "predicts" how well one will do in medical school. It's just that if something did, I believe it would be the MCAT and not GPA.

 

[painmd87]

What does the S stand for? I've heard people argue for ROADE before, but never ROADS.

Surgery, no?

I think ROAD is lifestyle to some, prestige to others. Surgery is lumped into the prestige category and gets the ROADS designation while EM gets put into ROADE for lifestyle.

I would also guess that gas gets out of ROAD sometime soon, with the rapid encroachment of CRNAs and the impending explosion of nurses in the workforce (which, theoretically leads to a more difficult job search, which puts people back to school for NP/CRNA, although a CNRA generally requires a few years of critical care, ICU, ER, etc. work)..

 

[Kevin Baker]

What does the S stand for? I've heard people argue for ROADE before, but never ROADS.

It stands for a major typo

I'll edit above.

I guess one could argue surgery but ROAD always meant lifestyle imo. I could see adding on EM as 36 hrs a week is pretty sweet if you can deal with the 12 hr shifts, but surgery is a bit more hardcore.

 

[WADO]

I don't think it's true but faculty on admissions said your undergrad GPA will be the ceiling of your med school GPA. Example: If your uGPA is 3.2, you won't be able to surpass that in med school - it will be the highest GPA you'll be able to achieve.

 

[OneTripAcross]

I don't think it's true but faculty on admissions said your undergrad GPA will be the ceiling of your med school GPA. Example: If your uGPA is 3.2, you won't be able to surpass that in med school - it will be the highest GPA you'll be able to achieve.

I know thats not true as a family member of mine had a 3.4 UGrad GPA and is a second year student with a 3.9 in Med School.

Bottom line is that if you put in the effort and handle the stress effectively there are no preset limits on how well you can perfrom in Medical School.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

I don't think it's true but faculty on admissions said your undergrad GPA will be the ceiling of your med school GPA. Example: If your uGPA is 3.2, you won't be able to surpass that in med school - it will be the highest GPA you'll be able to achieve.

FWIW, I'm doing better in med school than I ever did in undergrad. Different kind of classes, different kind of studying, different kind of testing - I'm just better at this kind than what I had in undergrad. One person's experience...

 

[cliquesh]

My college GPA = my medical school GPA after 1.5 years. So I guess they correlate, at least for me, anyway. By the way, according to my dean, if you score below a 24 on the MCAT you are going to have a "difficult time" doing well on the boards and you may even have trouble passing, so I think your MCAT is probably the most important factor that will determine your success in medical school. This is assuming that you studied your ass off for the MCAT.

 

[aspiringOSTEO]

1

 

[drctother]

it willl ABSOLUTELY not have a direct correlation. Ya sure a few people will come on here to claim there GPA has stayed the same, thats fine. However think about all the universities in the states. Think about all the people who went to small little universities and got straight As because their school was a joke. I seriously doubt they could get those grades at a bigger university. I have met plenty of people from small colleges who had 4.0s coming into bigger universities and than their grades sunk when put to a real challenge

 

[drctother]

I don't think it's true but faculty on admissions said your undergrad GPA will be the ceiling of your med school GPA. Example: If your uGPA is 3.2, you won't be able to surpass that in med school - it will be the highest GPA you'll be able to achieve.

that is probably one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard of on SDN, that faculty person is an idiot

again to hit on my point above. What if you went to a REALLY good challenging school and got a 3.2. Are you telling me that you are dumber than a person with a 3.5 from some ****ty little school? I dont think so

 

[jd1031]

I work with a couple people on the admissions committee at a "top 20" allopathic medical school (at a hospital). This is what they told me. Past a certain point - not even a high point - MCAT and GPA don't matter for s***. Admission is a GAME. And almost every physician I've talked to said that the MCAT was BS. So, just play the game, but don't put your head down if you're stats are a bit low.

The thing is, people change all the time, and people come from different backgrounds. You have to be mentally and, most importantly, emotionally ready for the long road that is medicine. Also, your personality is a much better indicator of how well you'll do and where you'll end up.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I work with a couple people on the admissions committee at a "top 20" allopathic medical school (at a hospital). This is what they told me. Past a certain point - not even a high point - MCAT and GPA don't matter for s***. Admission is a GAME. And almost every physician I've talked to said that the MCAT was BS. So, just play the game, but don't put your head down if you're stats are a bit low.

The thing is, people change all the time, and people come from different backgrounds. You have to be mentally and, most importantly, emotionally ready for the long road that is medicine. Also, your personality is a much better indicator of how well you'll do and where you'll end up.

I'll just be honest here and say I am not looking forward to this game, just like the out of shape fat kid in middle school PE class doesn't look forward to dodgeball.

 

[SLC]

it willl ABSOLUTELY not have a direct correlation. Ya sure a few people will come on here to claim there GPA has stayed the same, thats fine. However think about all the universities in the states. Think about all the people who went to small little universities and got straight As because their school was a joke. I seriously doubt they could get those grades at a bigger university. I have met plenty of people from small colleges who had 4.0s coming into bigger universities and than their grades sunk when put to a real challenge

This describes me pretty well. 3.9 from my small school, then 3.1 from my research-1 university. You're up against stiffer competition for grades, and you're taking classes with at least 250 other folks instead of 14 or 15, so there's little chance for direct feedback from the professor. The material didn't change much, but the environment was a whole hell of a lot tougher.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

I work with a couple people on the admissions committee at a "top 20" allopathic medical school (at a hospital). This is what they told me. Past a certain point - not even a high point - MCAT and GPA don't matter for s***. Admission is a GAME. And almost every physician I've talked to said that the MCAT was BS. So, just play the game, but don't put your head down if you're stats are a bit low.

The thing is, people change all the time, and people come from different backgrounds. You have to be mentally and, most importantly, emotionally ready for the long road that is medicine. Also, your personality is a much better indicator of how well you'll do and where you'll end up.

I agree . The MCAT is nothing but a dog and pony show for admissions. It doesn't mean anything. My older sister did awful on the MCAT and she's passing medical school with flying colors and her friends are dropping out left and right.

 

[Swagster]

I'm not even sure how much an undergrad GPA tells you about what you learned as an undergrad. There are some Bs on my transcript for classes I learned really well and some As for classes I learned nothing, but had last years exams to study from. I hope GPA only says how hard you're willing to work in medical school.

 

[TornadoChaser]

I'm not even sure how much an undergrad GPA tells you about what you learned as an undergrad. There are some Bs on my transcript for classes I learned really well and some As for classes I learned nothing, but had last years exams to study from. I hope GPA only says how hard you're willing to work in medical school.

I agree, it's more of a sign of how hard you worked. A really intelligent person who didn't put in 100% in ugrad and got a 3.0 could easily begin putting forth 100% effort in med school and earn a 3.8. Also you make a good point with having last year's exams. Did you do what was necessary to get an A, or did you do what was necessary to learn the material? Big difference.

 

[cliquesh]

.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

I agree, it's more of a sign of how hard you worked. A really intelligent person who didn't put in 100% in ugrad and got a 3.0 could easily begin putting forth 100% effort in med school and earn a 3.8. Also you make a good point with having last year's exams. Did you do what was necessary to get an A, or did you do what was necessary to learn the material? Big difference.

I agree. There is a big difference. For exams, all you have to do is study the material and most likely, are are going to forget it and never use it again. That doesn't necessarily mean you've actually learned the material, just studied that material that was tested on the exam. You can go so far with test and not everything is tested.

 

[mic2377]

I went from a ~3.1 in undergrad and am now a 4.0 med student at a top-40 MD school. I had an MCAT that in the better part of the 30's, much more so than expected from my uGPA. In my case, extenuating circumstances and an exceptionally difficult undergrad major was what caused this. I believe exceptions like this are somewhat rare, but they do exist.

I have seen lots of 3.7+ classmates getting academically destroyed, so I tend to side towards the validity of MCAT>GPA.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

I went from a ~3.1 in undergrad and am now a 4.0 med student at a top-40 MD school. I had an MCAT that in the better part of the 30's, much more so than expected from my uGPA. In my case, extenuating circumstances and an exceptionally difficult undergrad major was what caused this. I believe exceptions like this are somewhat rare, but they do exist.

I have seen lots of 3.7+ classmates getting academically destroyed, so I tend to side towards the validity of MCAT>GPA.

But your ugpa or MCAT wasn't all that bad. I can see a 2.9 gpa and a 23 MCAT and getting a 4.0 in med school, that would be a huge difference, no? Plus, I think people like that had to prove themselves harder so get high scores in medical school as compared to the ones who had a 4.0 ugpa and a 45 MCAT and got cocky and failed out. I don't know, I think it's what you want. I don't think your MCAT of GPA are big indicators, in my opinion. Some people may choke on test or are probably having a bad day and that may show on the MCAT. Who knows.

 

[CreoleDoc]

I agree, it's more of a sign of how hard you worked. A really intelligent person who didn't put in 100% in ugrad and got a 3.0 could easily begin putting forth 100% effort in med school and earn a 3.8. Also you make a good point with having last year's exams. Did you do what was necessary to get an A, or did you do what was necessary to learn the material? Big difference.

\

Well said my friend... That is where I fall. I didnt slack off during undergrad, but I definitely did not work to my full potential. Obviously there are other great qualities about ANYONE who gets accepted with subpar statistics so lets all be fair and admit that they weigh into your chances of success for medical school too. I would much rather go to school with people like myself who had decent grades, but an AWESOME personality who will be fun to study with but still will get **** done. Not saying there arent people with perfect grades like that, but while those of us with avg. scores worry about our whether our grades and mcat are competitive enough, those brainiacs (NOT ALL! Just some haha) worry about if they can fake having a pulse for the ad-coms. Everyone is different so there is no golden rule but either way Tornadochaser said it best ... Thanks for all your replies guys

 

[JapaneseSakura]

\

Well said my friend... That is where I fall. I didnt slack off during undergrad, but I definitely did not work to my full potential. Obviously there are other great qualities about ANYONE who gets accepted with subpar statistics so lets all be fair and admit that they weigh into your chances of success for medical school too. I would much rather go to school with people like myself who had decent grades, but an AWESOME personality who will be fun to study with but still will get **** done. Not saying there arent people with perfect grades like that, but while those of us with avg. scores worry about our whether our grades and mcat are competitive enough, those brainiacs (NOT ALL! Just some haha) worry about if they can fake having a pulse for the ad-coms. Everyone is different so there is no golden rule but either way Tornadochaser said it best ... Thanks for all your replies guys

I want to go to medical with people like you too!!!!!!

 

[tbone0705]

It is a relatively good indication, but I found med school classes much easier to understand

 

[Der Kaiser]

It is a relatively good indication, but I found med school classes much easier to understand

Do you think this was because they were easier or because they reviewed concepts you had already learned? I've heard it said that med school is like going back to high school in the sense that they both require tons of rote memorization without necessarily understanding the content (obviously med school requires more). I personally have no idea, which is why I ask.

 

[cliquesh]

Do you think this was because they were easier or because they reviewed concepts you had already learned? I've heard it said that med school is like going back to high school in the sense that they both require tons of rote memorization without necessarily understanding the content (obviously med school requires more). I personally have no idea, which is why I ask.

There isn't anything that is that hard to understand in medical school. The only thing that is slightly difficult to understand, at least for me, is physiology, but that isn't even that hard. Medical school, like you said, is just memorization. Biochem might be hard for some, but Biochem at my school was just lots of memorization and it didn't require a real understanding of chemistry or anything.

 

[kevlar917]

At a pre-med portion of my state's DO conference, an adcom member told me (well, all the pre-meds in the room) that the best indication of your success in med school is your verbal score on the MCAT.