UNE stabs UNECOM students in the back

[exPCM]

This is a controversial topic but I personally think it is worth discussing. We now have numerous universities training physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) that will replace and undermine the physicians who are graduating from these same universities. Prime example here:


UNE giving doctorates to CRNAs & certifying in pain mgmt.

Doctor of Nursing Practice
Innovation and Leadership in Nurse Anesthesia

University of New England's (UNE) online Doctor of Nursing Practice Nurse in Anesthesia (DNP) prepares Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) for clinical leadership positions in a dynamic and diverse health care system. CRNAs who desire to grow professionally as leaders, clinical practitioners, and educators will find this post-master's online DNP a convenient and stimulating educational opportunity. With two tracks in patient safety and pain management, UNE's DNP provides options for CRNAs who wish to practice in either a hospital or rural setting as an administrator or as a clinical leader. Through an innovative curriculum that combines online coursework and low-residency hands-on experiences, you can complete your DNP in two years.

Certificate in Pain Management

UNE's online Certificate in Pain Management is the only university-based pain management program in the country. This evidence-based curriculum is ideal for Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, medical doctors, and osteopathic physicians who wish to further develop their skills and knowledge in pain management to practice in pain clinics, small hospitals, and rural settings. Through online courses and hands-on field experiences, you will learn the latest clinical techniques and technologies for controlling pain and improving patient care.


http://nurseanesthetist.une.edu/lp-...ntdoctor.net&gclid=CNfS1Z-ikaICFQrKsgodslQbjg

Comment: So now we will have CRNAs becoming "doctors" through these DNP programs and also practicing pain management after this online program with some "field experiences". What a complete joke. Seems like UNE is stabbing their UNECOM students in the back by sanctioning this nonsense. I feel that many institutions charge exorbitant tuitions to their medical students and it is sad that they also choose to also open programs for these physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) as well. IMO this the epitome of stabbing your med students in the back.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yup. I saw this and was very, very disappointed. In fact, they are the same school that posts ads on SDN for the online CRNA (or whatever) program.

 

[ShyRem]

I'm a graduate of UNECOM, and I am frightened by what the President of the University is doing to the med school. Although I must say I'm not surprised. Most universities that have med schools they tout the medical school as the jewel of their university - she seems to want to squash it. The PR for the med school is non-existent. More is the pity as the medical school faculty is outstanding and highly dedicated.

UNE has been building a large number of buildings over the past four years. I'm sure they need money more than ever before - and their medical students have the highest debt load per student of any other medical students in the country (the tuition of med students is higher than the entire COA of undergrads). NUMBER ONE. So I'm sure she's looking to pay off debt by any means possible, and certainly folks will pay a premium for the "doctorate".

It's all about money. Says something that at one point med students waited for over a week to meet with the President of the University who wouldn't come in to the office to see them. This is also the same University President who wanted to close the University Health system overnight and fired all the clinical faculty except for the Department Heads. (This was subsequently put "on hold" after a vociferous fight by community physicians, alumni, and really really bad press. Throughout this debacle, she still did not meet with medical students.)

However: these "doctorate" programs have very little to do with the medical school itself. The med school is located in one city, all other health professions at another. They don't interact at all. The med school is rather insulated from all other programs except undergraduate with whom they share the campus.

It's all about money.

 

[chet]

This is a controversial topic but I personally think it is worth discussing. We now have numerous universities training physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) that will replace and undermine the physicians who are graduating from these same universities. Prime example here:


UNE giving doctorates to CRNAs & certifying in pain mgmt.

Doctor of Nursing Practice
Innovation and Leadership in Nurse Anesthesia

University of New England's (UNE) online Doctor of Nursing Practice Nurse in Anesthesia (DNP) prepares Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) for clinical leadership positions in a dynamic and diverse health care system. CRNAs who desire to grow professionally as leaders, clinical practitioners, and educators will find this post-master's online DNP a convenient and stimulating educational opportunity. With two tracks in patient safety and pain management, UNE's DNP provides options for CRNAs who wish to practice in either a hospital or rural setting as an administrator or as a clinical leader. Through an innovative curriculum that combines online coursework and low-residency hands-on experiences, you can complete your DNP in two years.

Certificate in Pain Management

UNE's online Certificate in Pain Management is the only university-based pain management program in the country. This evidence-based curriculum is ideal for Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, medical doctors, and osteopathic physicians who wish to further develop their skills and knowledge in pain management to practice in pain clinics, small hospitals, and rural settings. Through online courses and hands-on field experiences, you will learn the latest clinical techniques and technologies for controlling pain and improving patient care.


http://nurseanesthetist.une.edu/lp-...ntdoctor.net&gclid=CNfS1Z-ikaICFQrKsgodslQbjg

Comment: So now we will have CRNAs becoming "doctors" through these DNP programs and also practicing pain management after this online program with some "field experiences". What a complete joke. Seems like UNE is stabbing their UNECOM students in the back by sanctioning this nonsense. I feel that many institutions charge exorbitant tuitions to their medical students and it is sad that they also choose to also open programs for these physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) as well. IMO this the epitome of stabbing your med students in the back.

Could you please elaborate about what exactly concerns you with this issue? Is it the professional role of the DNP, CRNA etc. . that you disagree with, or are you just concerned that it takes away attention from the medical students?

Have you had clinical experience working with these ´doctor pretenders´that has left you with a bad impression?

Although I´m not even in medical school yet I have had a lot of direct contact working with Physicians, their PA´s, and a few CRNA´s and NP´s that were on the hosptical staff. In over three years I´ve never seen any power struggle, ego issues, or patient care issues, even the patients were quiet savy about the role of these providers. I know for a fact that the ED Physicians appreciated and relied on the PA´s heavily because they hired them.

Anyways, perhaps you could shed light on the issue, thanks

 

[sylvanthus]

Could you please elaborate about what exactly concerns you with this issue? Is it the professional role of the DNP, CRNA etc. . that you disagree with, or are you just concerned that it takes away attention from the medical students?

Have you had clinical experience working with these ´doctor pretenders´that has left you with a bad impression?

Although I´m not even in medical school yet I have had a lot of direct contact working with Physicians, their PA´s, and a few CRNA´s and NP´s that were on the hosptical staff. In over three years I´ve never seen any power struggle, ego issues, or patient care issues, even the patients were quiet savy about the role of these providers. I know for a fact that the ED Physicians appreciated and relied on the PA´s heavily because they hired them.

Anyways, perhaps you could shed light on the issue, thanks

If you are really this blind to what is happening with the DNP movement and what it means to future physicians, nothing we say on this website is going to clue you in.

 

[chet]

If you are really this blind to what is happening with the DNP movement and what it means to future physicians, nothing we say on this website is going to clue you in.

Slow down buddy,

I only wanted to focus this discussion a bit and get into the details of what disturbed the OP.

I didn´t state my opinion in the post, only what I have personally seen. Personally, I have mixed feelings about the issue, which is why I find it an interesting topic.

So please, take the covers off from over my eyes and show me the light.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Slow down buddy,

I only wanted to focus this discussion a bit and get into the details of what disturbed the OP.

I didn´t state my opinion in the post, only what I have personally seen. Personally, I have mixed feelings about the issue, which is why I find it an interesting topic.

So please, take the covers off from over my eyes and show me the light.

Can you clarify your mixed feelings? For me, someone earning a medical certificate online and then treating patients = bad (one, concise feeling). When a school that houses a reputable medical school does it = worse. Thoughts??

 

[tideleonheart]

To me, it's just LAUGHABLE when I read the "online" part of this. While online courses might be great for certain majors or professions (literature, philosophy, internet marketing, etc), the medical profession should be off-limits.

Though let's be honest. Even though the degree is attainable, I do think that this tends to discredit their education.

 

[swamprat]

It bothers me for 2 reasons:

1) I've personally been treated by an NP and "misdiagnosed" twice. One time I had a sinus infection which the NP said was viral and I should just rest and drink fluids. I decided to see a physician because 48 hours later I felt even worse. The doctor put me on augmentin and I felt better 24 hours later-obviously wasn't viral. The other time I don't remember the exact situation, but again I went back to a doctor and got what I needed. I'm not saying this is always the case, and my interactions as a patient involving a PA has been sufficient for me, but the whole situation still left a bad taste in my mouth.

2) Why should they have the autonomy to practice on their own, and to call them doctors?! Wtf, sounds to me like someone who didn't want to do all the work and go to medical school but still wants all the credit of it. It makes no sense to suggest anything otherwise, they basically are acting like pseudo-doctors with nursing degrees. If we need primary care providers, there are other ways of doing this(including keep things the way they are, NPs working under the supervision of an MD/DO). For one, LECOM has a 3 year primary care program and I think another type of program is opening up in Texas maybe? Also, more incentives for going into primary care other than "loan forgiveness," but we'll put you in Idaho for 4 years in a town with 1,000 people. Obviously the pay isn't too great either.

 

[chet]

I can see your point, from the information provided by the OP, it seems to be a shady program, and I would have to research that program in particular to make an intelligent comment about it.

However, what I am mostly interested in discussing is the overall tone of the OP´s post, with using language such as ´Doctor Pretender´, I assume that he not only takes issue with this program, but with the midlevel provider all together.

On one hand I have a general knee jerk reaction against providers such as DNP, PA, CRNA, but when I ask myself why I feel that way, I can´t give an honest answer. Some like to say that they are forcing MD´s and DO´s out of the their fields, I find that to be a weak argument. A far larger majority of DNP´s and PA´s enter a PC specialty than do MD´s or DO´s. I feel they are filling a void, not pushing anyone out.

But for arguments sake lets say they are attempting some medicine takeover. Can anyone provide me with an arguement as to why they shouldn´t? If its such a tragedy for these ´pretend doctors´ to be treating patients, then there must be some numbers to support this popular assumption.

Thats why I responded to this post, I have a general feeling that there should be Doctors and Nurses with no blurry lines, but why?

Can you clarify your mixed feelings? , someone earning a medical certificate online and then treating patients = bad (one, concise feeling). When a school that houses a reputable medical school does it = worse. Thoughts??

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Also, more incentives for going into primary care other than "loan forgiveness," but we'll put you in Idaho for 4 years in a town with 1,000 people.

So not trying to derail the thread, but I could only be so lucky

 

[singinfifi]

Call me old fashioned, but I feel like if you're going to be a doctor and treating patients in a medical setting, you should probably go to medical school.

I might be off base though.

 

[exPCM]

The intensity, length, and breadth of medical student/resident physician training is magnitudes greater than these physician pretenders.

Clinical training hrs
DNP: 700*
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >17000
* = offered

50% of DNPs failed a simplified version of Step 3:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/06/08/prl10608.htm

Does anyone see a difference? (P.S. Kudos and credit to the SDN member Taurus who has started a great thread here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=736283



Here is just one example of many IMO of the hazards of the pretenders:
GI Suite Disaster - Lawsuit Filed Against CRNA

After Death in the GI Suite, Patient's Family Sues CRNA Family says CRNA should have been supervised while administering anesthesia to patient with sleep apnea.


The family of a man with sleep apnea who died during a routine colonoscopy is suing the nurse anesthetist who cared for the patient.

The plaintiffs allege that before his May 2009 colonoscopy at Parkway Regional Hospital in Fulton, Ky., Charles Harold Curtis Jr. told his anesthesia provider, Leonard Hohlbein, CRNA, that he had sleep apnea and needed to use a continuous positive airway pressure machine while sleeping. Mr. Hohlbein allegedly looked at Mr. Curtis' neck, said it looked normal and administered a reduced dose of propofol with a nasal cannula. When the patient's condition "deteriorated," the anesthesia provider tried to intubate the patient but couldn't manage, according to court documents filed in April in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Kentucky.

Although Mr. Hohlbein opened the airway with a cricothyroidotomy and performed CPR for 45 minutes, Mr. Curtis died about an hour after the colonoscopy had begun. The biopsy results of the polyps found during the procedure were not malignant, according to court documents.

In the complaint, Mr. Curtis' family says that because of his sleep apnea and history of difficult intubations during other surgeries, Mr. Hohlbein should have been supervised by an anesthesiologist and should not have used propofol. "Hohlbein should have considered and used alternative methods for Mr. Curtis' sedation," says the complaint. The family is suing for an undisclosed amount.

In court documents filed this week, Mr. Hohlbein and the hospital deny that they were negligent in caring for Mr. Curtis. Mr. Hohlbein's attorney did not return a request for comment. The family's attorney was out of the country and not available to comment.

The Curtis family has asked the court for a jury trial. No date has been set
http://www.outpatientsurgery.net/news/2010/05/12

Comment: Anyone who thinks this would have happened if an anesthesiologist ("a real doctor") had been doing the case is a complete idiot IMO.

Online degrees - holy sh$$ - do you really want to get your treatment from these physician pretenders?

To Chet: If you cannot tell the difference right now between a real physician (MD or DO) and a physician pretender (chiropractor, naturopath, DNP, PA, CRNA, NP) then if you really get into medical school and become a physician you almost certainly will see the differences,

 

[chet]

The intensity, length, and breadth of medical student/resident physician training is magnitudes greater than these physician pretenders.

Clinical training hrs
DNP: 700*
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >17000
* = offered

50% of DNPs failed a simplified version of Step 3:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/06/08/prl10608.htm

Does anyone see a difference? (P.S. Kudos and credit to the SDN member Taurus who has started a great thread here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=736283



Here is just one example of many IMO of the hazards of the pretenders:
GI Suite Disaster - Lawsuit Filed Against CRNA

After Death in the GI Suite, Patient's Family Sues CRNA Family says CRNA should have been supervised while administering anesthesia to patient with sleep apnea.


The family of a man with sleep apnea who died during a routine colonoscopy is suing the nurse anesthetist who cared for the patient.

The plaintiffs allege that before his May 2009 colonoscopy at Parkway Regional Hospital in Fulton, Ky., Charles Harold Curtis Jr. told his anesthesia provider, Leonard Hohlbein, CRNA, that he had sleep apnea and needed to use a continuous positive airway pressure machine while sleeping. Mr. Hohlbein allegedly looked at Mr. Curtis' neck, said it looked normal and administered a reduced dose of propofol with a nasal cannula. When the patient's condition "deteriorated," the anesthesia provider tried to intubate the patient but couldn't manage, according to court documents filed in April in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Kentucky.

Although Mr. Hohlbein opened the airway with a cricothyroidotomy and performed CPR for 45 minutes, Mr. Curtis died about an hour after the colonoscopy had begun. The biopsy results of the polyps found during the procedure were not malignant, according to court documents.

In the complaint, Mr. Curtis' family says that because of his sleep apnea and history of difficult intubations during other surgeries, Mr. Hohlbein should have been supervised by an anesthesiologist and should not have used propofol. "Hohlbein should have considered and used alternative methods for Mr. Curtis' sedation," says the complaint. The family is suing for an undisclosed amount.

In court documents filed this week, Mr. Hohlbein and the hospital deny that they were negligent in caring for Mr. Curtis. Mr. Hohlbein's attorney did not return a request for comment. The family's attorney was out of the country and not available to comment.

The Curtis family has asked the court for a jury trial. No date has been set
http://www.outpatientsurgery.net/news/2010/05/12

Comment: Anyone who thinks this would have happened if an anesthesiologist ("a real doctor") had been doing the case is a complete idiot IMO.

Online degrees - holy sh$$ - do you really want to get your treatment from these physician pretenders?

To Chet: If you cannot tell the difference right now between a real physician (MD or DO) and a physician pretender (chiropractor, naturopath, DNP, PA, CRNA, NP) then if you really get into medical school and become a physician you almost certainly will see the differences,

Thanks for the reply,

Not that it matters, but i have been accepted, just waiting to start in August.

I was interested in you opinion on the subject because you list yourself as an attending, therefore you must have some direct experience dealing with these ´pretenders´. The case you referenced is tragic, and it appears that CRNA is negligent. . .but then you could look up thousands of cases against DO/MD´s that are clearly negligent.

I´m not saying that to argue that these providers can treat a patient just as well as a physician, I´m just looking for some real evidence one way or the other.

I know what the differences between these providers and physicians are. Every Physicains office I´ve shadowed at and every ED I´ve worked at has used either PA´s or NP´s. It sounds arrogant when pre-meds or 1st and 2nd year med students think they are somehow justified to look down upon these professions. The fact is, the PA, NP, or CRNA student you may be sharing class time with at your school will have more medical experience than most of you and has already proven themselves to be competent providers on some level. Many of my first year classmates may very well have never even touched a patient. I´m not concerned about chiropracters or Naturopaths, I´m not sure how they became part of the discussion.

In the end, as you pointed out, Physicians endure far more training, and I don´t think its ever been disputed, that they are more competent providers. But isn´t there still a rightful place for the PA´s and NP´s in your opinion? The PA´s that i´ve worked with in the ED handle the simple lacerations, drunks, and anything else the Physician decides to send there way. They nevery hesitate to seek advice from the attending, and they never ´pretend´to be a doctor. Whats the harm in that, the Doctors see no harm, thats why they hire them in the first place.

The NP´s and DNP´s I think are more contraversial since they can work independently from Physicians, yet its not exactly like they are replacing them is it? Correct me if I´m wrong but DNP´s enter a program to be trained in a particular specialty, they don´t choose the specialty afterwards like Physicians. I´ve never heard of a program that trained DNP´s for anything other than ED(in which case they work under a physician) Psy, and Family Practice. This translates into the vast majority of them working in public-low income-clinics, which is exactly where more providers are needed.

Perhaps peoples main issue with DNP´s is the Doctor in front of the title. Who cares, have you ever met one that referred to themsevles as a Doctor? I haven´t, it simply signifies that they have optained a doctorate degree. So have many lawyers, philosophers, and physical therapist. Thoughts?

 

[pianoman511]

The NP´s and DNP´s I think are more contraversial since they can work independently from Physicians, yet its not exactly like they are replacing them is it? Correct me if I´m wrong but DNP´s enter a program to be trained in a particular specialty, they don´t choose the specialty afterwards like Physicians. I´ve never heard of a program that trained DNP´s for anything other than ED(in which case they work under a physician) Psy, and Family Practice. This translates into the vast majority of them working in public-low income-clinics, which is exactly where more providers are needed.

Perhaps peoples main issue with DNP´s is the Doctor in front of the title. Who cares, have you ever met one that referred to themsevles as a Doctor? I haven´t, it simply signifies that they have optained a doctorate degree. So have many lawyers, philosophers, and physical therapist. Thoughts?

If you have been watching current events, DNPs are advocating for independent practice in all 50 states and some prominent supporters of the movement are boasting that they can replace physicians (and do a better job). NPs in general are found in all areas of medicine, not just FP, Psych and the ED. They are in every specialty - including surgery. With their recent push, they are moving more towards the specialty just like physicians - because that is where the money is.

Many physicians/medical students have issue with DNPs calling themselves Doctor. In a clinical setting, the term doctor indicates a physician. A physical therapist, lawyer, or philosopher does not enter a hospital and proclaim that they are a physician. Also, if you look at the DNP, it is not a clinical degree - it is a doctorate of nursing practice (DNP). Therefore, while one could refer to a DNP as a professor (aka a doctor in an academic setting), it may not be as appropriate to refer to them as a doctor in a clinical setting (as it is not a clinical degree).

 

[tkyle56]

When I graduate med school I will be introducing myself as Dr. and then I will tell the patient that I am their physician. No matter what the DNP's or PA's argue they can't call themselves physicians because they didn't go to medical school. Maybe at least my patients will know that I am the ultimate decision maker for their care and I am a doctor that has graduated from medical school. At NSUCOM we have a dress code to distinguish what student belongs to what program. I know many hospitals also use this method and I wish more would. When certain professions have to wear a certain color scrub and only the physicians wear white coats I think it helps the patient to know who is who. There are so many people that work in the hospital these days it can be very confusing.

 

[Instatewaiter]

When I graduate med school I will be introducing myself as Dr. and then I will tell the patient that I am their physician. No matter what the DNP's or PA's argue they can't call themselves physicians because they didn't go to medical school. Maybe at least my patients will know that I am the ultimate decision maker for their care and I am a doctor that has graduated from medical school. At NSUCOM we have a dress code to distinguish what student belongs to what program. I know many hospitals also use this method and I wish more would. When certain professions have to wear a certain color scrub and only the physicians wear white coats I think it helps the patient to know who is who. There are so many people that work in the hospital these days it can be very confusing.

In my experience, almost everyone in the hospital wears white coats: NPs, respiratory therapists, PT/OT, residents, nursing students, medical students and so on. The attendings are usually the ones who don't wear them.

As to the colored scrubs, it is a good idea but let's be honest, most people wont catch on that quickly.

 

[JaggerPlate]

In my experience, almost everyone in the hospital wears white coats: NPs, respiratory therapists, PT/OT, residents, nursing students, medical students and so on. The attendings are usually the ones who don't wear them.

As to the colored scrubs, it is a good idea but let's be honest, most people wont catch on that quickly.

It's easy to find the doctors ... they're the ones not wearing the white coats. I worked at a hospital for two years, and, like you said, every tech, RN, RT, etc proudly pranced around in a white coat and I honestly don't think I saw a single attending ever wear one.

 

[MrBeauregard]

Interestingly, Jagger, I worked in two separate hospitals in two separate cities before medical school and saw the complete opposite of what you describe above. The attendings (I call them attendings, yet neither of these hospitals were teaching institutions) always wore white coats, especially in the larger hospital of the two. Yet so did everyone else. So really it doesn't seem to matter whether the doctors wear them or not, you still can't tell them apart from everyone else. I hate the fact that many hospitals don't have a policy regarding who can wear a white coat and who can't. It's just one less distinguishing factor.

And in regards to the article above about the CRNA being sued for providing negligent anesthesia:

I was an anesthesia tech in the operating room at both of these hospitals, therefore working very closely with CRNAs and anesthesiologists. I never have and probably never will take issue with CRNAs providing my or my patients' anesthesia. I haven't ever worked with a single CRNA who wanted to assume the role of an anesthesiologist without the training. Each one always worked well within his/her scope and knew their limitations. I do, however, take issue with the DNP increased scope of practice issue, as I have stated on SDN many times before. From reading the article and comparing it to my rather lengthy list of experiences working directly with CRNAs and anesthesiologists at the same time on the same cases, it seems as if the anesthesiologist should have never let this anesthetist perform the MAC case as he did. I know that no anesthesiologist I worked with would have ever let this happen. Even if a CRNA had planned out the case that way, no anesthesiologist would have ever let them go through with it. But this is just my limited experience.

 

[Jamers]

It's easy to find the doctors ... they're the ones not wearing the white coats. I worked at a hospital for two years, and, like you said, every tech, RN, RT, etc proudly pranced around in a white coat and I honestly don't think I saw a single attending ever wear one.

I remember as a student on a cardio rotation, standing next to another gentleman in a long white coat looking over an EKG and asking, "I don't know Doc, what do you think?" and getting the reply, "I am a social worker, don't ask me." Yep, even the social workers wore white coats in this hospital.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I remember as a student on a cardio rotation, standing next to another gentleman in a long white coat looking over an EKG and asking, "I don't know Doc, what do you think?" and getting the reply, "I am a social worker, don't as me." Yep, even the social workers wore white coats in this hospital.

Social workers!???? WOW. I still think Dr's need to just secretly adopt a new, official coat color. Don't know if anyone in this thread watched the show Nip/Tuck (judge me if you will), but they wore blue coats on that show ... looked pretty slick:

http://l.yimg.com/l/tv/us/img/site/48/88/0000034888_20061021032055.jpg

 

[randomusername]

Social workers!???? WOW. I still think Dr's need to just secretly adopt a new, official coat color. Don't know if anyone in this thread watched the show Nip/Tuck (judge me if you will), but they wore blue coats on that show ... looked pretty slick:

http://l.yimg.com/l/tv/us/img/site/48/88/0000034888_20061021032055.jpg

Best part? They won't stain as easily.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Interestingly, Jagger, I worked in two separate hospitals in two separate cities before medical school and saw the complete opposite of what you describe above. The attendings (I call them attendings, yet neither of these hospitals were teaching institutions) always wore white coats, especially in the larger hospital of the two. Yet so did everyone else. So really it doesn't seem to matter whether the doctors wear them or not, you still can't tell them apart from everyone else. I hate the fact that many hospitals don't have a policy regarding who can wear a white coat and who can't. It's just one less distinguishing factor.

And in regards to the article above about the CRNA being sued for providing negligent anesthesia:

I was an anesthesia tech in the operating room at both of these hospitals, therefore working very closely with CRNAs and anesthesiologists. I never have and probably never will take issue with CRNAs providing my or my patients' anesthesia. I haven't ever worked with a single CRNA who wanted to assume the role of an anesthesiologist without the training. Each one always worked well within his/her scope and knew their limitations. I do, however, take issue with the DNP increased scope of practice issue, as I have stated on SDN many times before. From reading the article and comparing it to my rather lengthy list of experiences working directly with CRNAs and anesthesiologists at the same time on the same cases, it seems as if the anesthesiologist should have never let this anesthetist perform the MAC case as he did. I know that no anesthesiologist I worked with would have ever let this happen. Even if a CRNA had planned out the case that way, no anesthesiologist would have ever let them go through with it. But this is just my limited experience.

When you go to med school and realize what cursory education the crna's get you will never let one of them in your own surgery.

 

[PharmaTope]

I remember as a student on a cardio rotation, standing next to another gentleman in a long white coat looking over an EKG and asking, "I don't know Doc, what do you think?" and getting the reply, "I am a social worker, don't ask me." Yep, even the social workers wore white coats in this hospital.

which hospital was this? my hospital is the same way.

 

[lokiperson]

Social workers!???? WOW. I still think Dr's need to just secretly adopt a new, official coat color. Don't know if anyone in this thread watched the show Nip/Tuck (judge me if you will), but they wore blue coats on that show ... looked pretty slick:

http://l.yimg.com/l/tv/us/img/site/48/88/0000034888_20061021032055.jpg

I can agree with this. Who thought it was a good idea to wear white anyway?

I have issues with DNP's wanting to be more autonomous mainly because I have never had good luck with NP's.. Yes, DNP's get more training, but I don't believe it's enough. I know that there are really good NP's out there (my mom and grandpa see NP's and think they're great), and I know that there will always be bad doctors... in fact, I've worked with a few ER docs that I've really had to question how they managed to pass boards.. But, when it comes down to it, I will always go see a physician when I need to because I feel much more comfortable with them due to their extensive training.

And yes JP, I will judge you for watching Nip/Tuck... but hey, I watched each week until this last season, so you can judge me.

 

[Gabby]

Perhaps peoples main issue with DNP´s is the Doctor in front of the title. Who cares, have you ever met one that referred to themsevles as a Doctor?

Yes, I have. I've also met a PA who introduced himself as a doctor. You keep wanting to come at this from the point of view of medical students. You should be trying to come at it from the point of view of patients, as many have pointed out. Patients deserve to know who's providing their care and when you have NPs and PAs walking around introducing themselves as "doctor," they don't. It's fraud, IMO, and should be outlawed. Unless you're a licensed physician, you shouldn't be allowed to refer to yourself as "doctor" in a clinic or hospital setting. Period.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I can agree with this. Who thought it was a good idea to wear white anyway?

I have issues with DNP's wanting to be more autonomous mainly because I have never had good luck with NP's.. Yes, DNP's get more training, but I don't believe it's enough. I know that there are really good NP's out there (my mom and grandpa see NP's and think they're great), and I know that there will always be bad doctors... in fact, I've worked with a few ER docs that I've really had to question how they managed to pass boards.. But, when it comes down to it, I will always go see a physician when I need to because I feel much more comfortable with them due to their extensive training.

And yes JP, I will judge you for watching Nip/Tuck... but hey, I watched each week until this last season, so you can judge me.

Perfect ... I just bought the last season on DVD, so now you can catch up

 

[Stillwater45]

I can see your point, from the information provided by the OP, it seems to be a shady program, and I would have to research that program in particular to make an intelligent comment about it.

However, what I am mostly interested in discussing is the overall tone of the OP´s post, with using language such as ´Doctor Pretender´, I assume that he not only takes issue with this program, but with the midlevel provider all together.

On one hand I have a general knee jerk reaction against providers such as DNP, PA, CRNA, but when I ask myself why I feel that way, I can´t give an honest answer. Some like to say that they are forcing MD´s and DO´s out of the their fields, I find that to be a weak argument. A far larger majority of DNP´s and PA´s enter a PC specialty than do MD´s or DO´s. I feel they are filling a void, not pushing anyone out.

But for arguments sake lets say they are attempting some medicine takeover. Can anyone provide me with an arguement as to why they shouldn´t? If its such a tragedy for these ´pretend doctors´ to be treating patients, then there must be some numbers to support this popular assumption.

Thats why I responded to this post, I have a general feeling that there should be Doctors and Nurses with no blurry lines, but why?

Why shouldn't Midlevel providers take over medicine? Well thats simple...
THEY DON'T HAVE A MEDICAL EDUCATION.
A nursing degree does not prepare a person to make a medical decision. A medical education involves a foundational knowledge of the human body, disease, and the incorporation of this knowledge into clinical judgments. Look at the difference in a nursing school curriculum and a medical school curriculum. There is a big difference in following an order and making an order. I didn't truly appreciate that until my intern year when I was forced to actually make medical decisions and take responsibility for the consequences. There are no shortcuts, and you truly don't understand that until you bare the responsibility of clinical decision making.

This may sound crazy:
But if we need more Medical Doctors....why not train more Doctors?
What's wrong with letting Dr.'s be Dr's and nurses be nurses?

 

[Gabby]

This may sound crazy:
But if we need more Medical Doctors....why not train more Doctors?

Exactly. There are many qualified pre-meds who fail to make it into med school every year because there aren't enough seats. There are a number of people who go unmatched in the match because there aren't enough residency slots. This year, there weren't even enough spots for the scramble. You've got people who have MDs or DOs who aren't in a residency right now. Instead of focusing on that, you want to grant rights to nurses to take over?

 

[swamprat]

This may sound crazy:
But if we need more Medical Doctors....why not train more Doctors?
What's wrong with letting Dr.'s be Dr's and nurses be nurses?

this

 

[NightOwlPM]

It's all about money.

All there is to it. We have a for-profit medical system. NP's are cheaper and can supposedly (according to nurses) do everything a doctor does. Look for NPs and DNPs to become absurdly easy to get along with them getting all the rights of a doctor. In end doctors lose, big time.

 

[CRNAdoc]

This is a controversial topic but I personally think it is worth discussing. We now have numerous universities training physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) that will replace and undermine the physicians who are graduating from these same universities. Prime example here:


UNE giving doctorates to CRNAs & certifying in pain mgmt.

Doctor of Nursing Practice
Innovation and Leadership in Nurse Anesthesia

University of New England's (UNE) online Doctor of Nursing Practice Nurse in Anesthesia (DNP) prepares Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) for clinical leadership positions in a dynamic and diverse health care system. CRNAs who desire to grow professionally as leaders, clinical practitioners, and educators will find this post-master's online DNP a convenient and stimulating educational opportunity. With two tracks in patient safety and pain management, UNE's DNP provides options for CRNAs who wish to practice in either a hospital or rural setting as an administrator or as a clinical leader. Through an innovative curriculum that combines online coursework and low-residency hands-on experiences, you can complete your DNP in two years.

Certificate in Pain Management

UNE's online Certificate in Pain Management is the only university-based pain management program in the country. This evidence-based curriculum is ideal for Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, medical doctors, and osteopathic physicians who wish to further develop their skills and knowledge in pain management to practice in pain clinics, small hospitals, and rural settings. Through online courses and hands-on field experiences, you will learn the latest clinical techniques and technologies for controlling pain and improving patient care.


http://nurseanesthetist.une.edu/lp-...ntdoctor.net&gclid=CNfS1Z-ikaICFQrKsgodslQbjg

Comment: So now we will have CRNAs becoming "doctors" through these DNP programs and also practicing pain management after this online program with some "field experiences". What a complete joke. Seems like UNE is stabbing their UNECOM students in the back by sanctioning this nonsense. I feel that many institutions charge exorbitant tuitions to their medical students and it is sad that they also choose to also open programs for these physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) as well. IMO this the epitome of stabbing your med students in the back.

Interestingly, Jagger, I worked in two separate hospitals in two separate cities before medical school and saw the complete opposite of what you describe above. The attendings (I call them attendings, yet neither of these hospitals were teaching institutions) always wore white coats, especially in the larger hospital of the two. Yet so did everyone else. So really it doesn't seem to matter whether the doctors wear them or not, you still can't tell them apart from everyone else. I hate the fact that many hospitals don't have a policy regarding who can wear a white coat and who can't. It's just one less distinguishing factor.

And in regards to the article above about the CRNA being sued for providing negligent anesthesia:

I was an anesthesia tech in the operating room at both of these hospitals, therefore working very closely with CRNAs and anesthesiologists. I never have and probably never will take issue with CRNAs providing my or my patients' anesthesia. I haven't ever worked with a single CRNA who wanted to assume the role of an anesthesiologist without the training. Each one always worked well within his/her scope and knew their limitations. I do, however, take issue with the DNP increased scope of practice issue, as I have stated on SDN many times before. From reading the article and comparing it to my rather lengthy list of experiences working directly with CRNAs and anesthesiologists at the same time on the same cases, it seems as if the anesthesiologist should have never let this anesthetist perform the MAC case as he did. I know that no anesthesiologist I worked with would have ever let this happen. Even if a CRNA had planned out the case that way, no anesthesiologist would have ever let them go through with it. But this is just my limited experience.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

 

[CRNAdoc]

****

This is a controversial topic but I personally think it is worth discussing. We now have numerous universities training physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) that will replace and undermine the physicians who are graduating from these same universities. Prime example here:


UNE giving doctorates to CRNAs & certifying in pain mgmt.

Doctor of Nursing Practice
Innovation and Leadership in Nurse Anesthesia

University of New England's (UNE) online Doctor of Nursing Practice Nurse in Anesthesia (DNP) prepares Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) for clinical leadership positions in a dynamic and diverse health care system. CRNAs who desire to grow professionally as leaders, clinical practitioners, and educators will find this post-master's online DNP a convenient and stimulating educational opportunity. With two tracks in patient safety and pain management, UNE's DNP provides options for CRNAs who wish to practice in either a hospital or rural setting as an administrator or as a clinical leader. Through an innovative curriculum that combines online coursework and low-residency hands-on experiences, you can complete your DNP in two years.

Certificate in Pain Management

UNE's online Certificate in Pain Management is the only university-based pain management program in the country. This evidence-based curriculum is ideal for Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, medical doctors, and osteopathic physicians who wish to further develop their skills and knowledge in pain management to practice in pain clinics, small hospitals, and rural settings. Through online courses and hands-on field experiences, you will learn the latest clinical techniques and technologies for controlling pain and improving patient care.


http://nurseanesthetist.une.edu/lp-...ntdoctor.net&gclid=CNfS1Z-ikaICFQrKsgodslQbjg

Comment: So now we will have CRNAs becoming "doctors" through these DNP programs and also practicing pain management after this online program with some "field experiences". What a complete joke. Seems like UNE is stabbing their UNECOM students in the back by sanctioning this nonsense. I feel that many institutions charge exorbitant tuitions to their medical students and it is sad that they also choose to also open programs for these physician pretenders (DNPs, CRNAs, etc.) as well. IMO this the epitome of stabbing your med students in the back.[/QUOTE

**** your MED students. CRNAs are some of the most highly trained and highly experience anesthesia providers in the world. We perform twice as many anesthetics each year as physicians do and are just a skilled and educated. What a *******

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

You bumped a 6 year old thread to rant at people who don't care. Awesome job!

 

[kenjixshadow]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

Please make a thread in http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/anesthesiology.45/

 

[wxman393]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

Uh, what?


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[Roxas]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

lulz

 

[Instatewaiter]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

Looks like someone drank the koolaid in nursing school. There are so many logical fallacies in your argument it is clear you are trying to compensate for what you claim to already have.

Also, maybe you should have become a real doctor. Perhaps then your feelings of inadequacy would be less noticible to those around you... Does that chip on your shoulder get in the way when you are mastering the airway?

 

[wxman393]

Looks like he or she made an account just to reply to this old thread.


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[zero0]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about at all? Do you have any idea how highly trained and skilled CRNAs are? CRNA's go through years and years of training to become a nurse anesthetist. We can perform Anesthesia completely independent of a physician. We are licensed to perform every single procedure that an anesthesiologist can perform including blocks, central lines, and any type of any anesthesia completely independent of any physician. We are masters at dealing with airways, and highly skilled at performing all types of anesthesia. We go through three years of anesthesia training the same as anesthesiologists. I would put my knowledge and experience as a CRNA up against any physician of any specialty at any time. We are the best at what we do and adding a pain management certification to extend our practice does not make us phonies, or pretending to be "doctors". A CRNA with a doctorate in pain management has roughly 9-10 years of school, not to mention years of actual experience. We are already highly skilled and highly trained individuals who perform twice as many anesthetics in this country as doctors do. We are not playing doctor, and we are not getting "field training". CRNAs are the people you want in a crisis. We perform every single type of procedure or anesthetic that an anesthesiologist does. An MD is not the only type of person qualified for advanced practice and I would put any CRNA up against any doctor any day of the week. Learn what you are talking about before you say something ignorant Like that

This is why I come here... for the laughs

My heart goes out to all the poor unsuspecting bastards having central lines placed by nurses

 

[ATPsynthase123]

This is why I come here... for the laughs

My heart goes out to all the poor unsuspecting bastards having central lines placed by nurses

Lol yeah, same goes for NPs. They have their uses, but acquiring the degree is a joke. I have a friend who is doing NP school now, and she legit does the whole thing online. Like even the exams, and this is through a state university, not Devry.


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[CRNAdoc]

Yup. I saw this and was very, very disappointed. In fact, they are the same school that posts ads on SDN for the online CRNA (or whatever) program.

There's no such thing as an online CRNA school.

 

[CRNAdoc]

This is why I come here... for the laughs

My heart goes out to all the poor unsuspecting bastards having central lines placed by nurses

CRNAs are not just nurses. We are highly trained and experienced graduate level anesthesia providers who do more intubation, more spindle/epidurals, and more central lines in 1 week than you probably do in a year. There is NOBODY with more education or experience doing anesthesia than a CRNA and I'd trust a CRNA over anybody else. You have no idea what you're talking about

 

[CRNAdoc]

Lol yeah, same goes for NPs. They have their uses, but acquiring the degree is a joke. I have a friend who is doing NP school now, and she legit does the whole thing online. Like even the exams, and this is through a state university, not Devry.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Bull****. Her didactic classes may be online but there is s rigorous clinical portion. You have no idea what you're talking about. CRNAs are amongst the most highly educated and experienced anesthesia providers anywhere and gave roughly 9 years of education and a world of experience. This Doctorate program is another year of education putting them over 10 years of schooling and experience. This doesn't include however many years they may have practicing anesthesia. You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever a first year resident is paired with a CRNA the resident looks like an idiot. CRNAs can run circles around any physician.

 

[wxman393]

Bull****. Her didactic classes may be online but there is s rigorous clinical portion. You have no idea what you're talking about. CRNAs are amongst the most highly educated and experienced anesthesia providers anywhere and gave roughly 9 years of education and a world of experience. This Doctorate program is another year of education putting them over 10 years of schooling and experience. This doesn't include however many years they may have practicing anesthesia. You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever a first year resident is paired with a CRNA the resident looks like an idiot. CRNAs can run circles around any physician.

How about instead of cussing and repeating the same thing over and over, support your opinion with facts from reputable sources.

How many states allow CRNA's to practice independently?




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[ATPsynthase123]

Bull****. Her didactic classes may be online but there is s rigorous clinical portion. You have no idea what you're talking about. CRNAs are amongst the most highly educated and experienced anesthesia providers anywhere and gave roughly 9 years of education and a world of experience. This Doctorate program is another year of education putting them over 10 years of schooling and experience. This doesn't include however many years they may have practicing anesthesia. You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever a first year resident is paired with a CRNA the resident looks like an idiot. CRNAs can run circles around any physician.

lol I'm sure pumpkin. The reality is that the nursing program and any associated programs are **** at my university. They can do the entire BSN online and only step into a classroom for NCLEX or the poor clinical training. She is doing the DNP program that is entirely online at my university. They do the majority of the 2 years online and only step into the hospital for clinical a couple times per year.

But yeah, they complete that and they are a "doctor".

I'm not bashing nurses, I have a very high opinion of them, but the program I am talking about is garbage.


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[Roxas]

and whenever a first year resident is paired with a CRNA the resident looks like an idiot. CRNAs can run circles around any physician.

You're comparing someone who is at the end of their training to someone who is at the beginning. Of course the CRNA has a leg up when the PGY-1 resident has only a limited amount of specialized training in that field. Not to mention intern year of gas is largely off service.

 

[ParallelLines]

You're comparing someone who is at the end of their training to someone who is at the beginning. Of course the CRNA has a leg up when the PGY-1 resident has only a limited amount of specialized training in that field. Not to mention intern year of gas is largely off service.

Some people will use any amount of twisted logic to validate themselves

 

[W19]

Bull****. Her didactic classes may be online but there is s rigorous clinical portion. You have no idea what you're talking about. CRNAs are amongst the most highly educated and experienced anesthesia providers anywhere and gave roughly 9 years of education and a world of experience. This Doctorate program is another year of education putting them over 10 years of schooling and experience. This doesn't include however many years they may have practicing anesthesia. You have no idea what you're talking about, and whenever a first year resident is paired with a CRNA the resident looks like an idiot. CRNAs can run circles around any physician.

Rigorous clinical portion! Yeah 500-700 hours clinical preceptorship... Lol

 

[W19]

lol I'm sure pumpkin. The reality is that the nursing program and any associated programs are **** at my university. They can do the entire BSN online and only step into a classroom for NCLEX or the poor clinical training. She is doing the DNP program that is entirely online at my university. They do the majority of the 2 years online and only step into the hospital for clinical a couple times per year.

But yeah, they complete that and they are a "doctor".

I'm not bashing nurses, I have a very high opinion of them, but the program I am talking about is garbage.


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Most if not all of them are...