Unique to-PhD-or-to-not-PhD situation before MD (with an international twist)

[Thomas11]

I’ve scowered the forums and found similar situations, but maybe someone has insightful advice for my specific situation.
Heads up- go get a coffee, it’s kind of a long one.

Profile
Age: 28
BS: Microbiology, minor Sociology, State University, 2017
Worked full-time throughout undergrad.
GPA: 3.58
(Semester 1- GPA 2.9, hard time adjusting. Last semester- GPA 3.89)

MSc: Immunology and Inflammation, Copenhagen, Denmark, 2020
Danish Cancer Society Scholarship


Background
During my bachelor’s, I fell in love with immunology, also wanted to travel.
Combined the two and moved to Copenhagen to start a Masters in Immunology.
Had an interesting thesis project in a high-profile laboratory/industry with a cancer- (and later COVID) related thesis project. Contributing author on Nat Comm publication.

PhD offers of admission from Karolinska Institute (Stockholm), and University of Copenhagen to continue my master’s project.
Turned them down to instead accept a research assistant position studying adoptive cell therapies (ACT) for cancer at one of the world-leading institutes for specific ACTs. I took this position instead of the other options out of pure personal passion and intellectual fascination, even though it was not a PhD position and the pay is meh.


During my time since moving to Copenhagen:

• I shadowed my father’s Rad Onc at Mayo Clinic during holidays (thankfully this doctor is happy to be my mentor)
• I lost my father to cancer in the midst of my masters studies
• Remotely volunteered with American Cancer Society doing grant review projects
• Got a unique/personal world view of healthcare outside of the US (I work at a hospital)
• First-authored a review paper (currently in editorial review)

Where I stand, things I’m reasoning with, and my question for you:

After my personal and professional experiences of the past 3 years, I want to be an MD. No questions asked.

The institute where I am employed as a RA has offered me a PhD position (3-year program) affiliated with U Copenhagen (where I did my MS). They are aware of my aspiration for post-PhD US medical school and I’m sure will allow me to dedicate time to MCAT-prep and the various other steps so I can have no more than one gap year after PhD. I would expect to start med school at the age of 33.

My other option is to return to the US after my RA contract is up, take a year for MCAT and to prepare, and apply for MD. With this, I’d expect to start at 30.

With my bachelor education, I feel I’m a mediocre-average candidate at best, depending on how I perform on MCAT. This is part of why I would not ever try for a US MD/PhD dual degree. I wasn’t exactly planning on trying to be a doctor during my BS as one could tell from my transcript.


PhD pros:

• Livable salary (I’m in Scandinavia),
• potential for a number of more publications,
• would give me more research experience and pull to help me with future research/grant applications in the future (right?)
• help me be less restricted to only clinical research

PhD cons:

• Burnout – I think my energy and can-do attitude has peaked and the longer I wait for the hardest schooling of my life the worse I will perform,
• maybe my PhD research is not as bountiful as I anticipate,
• maybe I decide I hate doing a PhD and I drop out which I assume will really hurt me in applying for MD school.
• Lastly, I get side-tracked. Maybe find an opportunity for a spin-out company, maybe find an opportunity in consulting, maybe get distracted by a financially lucrative option and end up 20 years later with the regret of not perusing my MD.

Should I stay for another 3 years getting a decent salary and end up with a PhD going into med school? Will this hurt me at all in the long run besides missing out on a practicing MD salary?

I will have LoRs from PIs in Copenhagen, one from my bachelors (in the US), and one from the US doctor I shadow. Is this decent, or will nonUS PIs be disregarded no matter their international reputation?

Given this profile, what points help me and where do I need work, whether or not I continue with a PhD?


If you’ve stuck with me this long, you rock. I appreciate any and all input.

Again, thank you.

-thomas

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[Goro]

What does your heart tell you???

 

[Dral]

What does your heart tell you???

Pretty much that. OP, You may have to be open to the DO route with your grades. Unless you come back and do an SMP/post bacc to improve your grades.

I started a PhD out of undergrad with the intention of going to medical school. I think it helped in certain situations, but it also hurt in others. I can expand on that if you wish, but I'll just leave it at that for now.

I don't regret the time (the money lost doesn't matter to me), and I met my best long term friends during grad school.

If you full on plan to be a physician researcher, I would seriously consider the PhD since as you alluded to, you won't likely get an MSTP spot. However, you can get just a medical degree and still do successful research.

If you don't plan on research, it may be best to just skip it...unless you really just want to enrich yourself...then do it...again, it's up to you to decide of course.

 

[Thomas11]

What does your heart tell you???

thb, I really can't imagine just going home. I've worked so hard and been extremely fortunate. I've built a good reputation and network and am presented with so many opportunities while many of my colleagues are struggling to find a job/PhD. It seems ridiculous to just drop the mic and bail.

But time is our most valuable asset, no? I realize I'll be far from the oldest person to apply to med school, but I'll be closer to them than I will be to the youngest. If I want to be a doctor, maybe I need to just go do only things that will help me be a doctor, and I'm not sure doing a PhD is that.

I realize your question was rhetorical, but I guess these are my more emotional points that come to mind. Thanks for the reply, @Goro

 

[Thomas11]

Pretty much that. OP, You may have to be open to the DO route with your grades. Unless you come back and do an SMP/post bacc to improve your grades.

I started a PhD out of undergrad with the intention of going to medical school. I think it helped in certain situations, but it also hurt in others. I can expand on that if you wish, but I'll just leave it at that for now.

I don't regret the time (the money lost doesn't matter to me), and I met my best long term friends during grad school.

If you full on plan to be a physician researcher, I would seriously consider the PhD since as you alluded to, you won't likely get an MSTP spot. However, you can get just a medical degree and still do successful research.

If you don't plan on research, it may be best to just skip it...unless you really just want to enrich yourself...then do it...again, it's up to you to decide of course.

@Dral , thank you for the bluntness. It's an easily googleable question, but DOs typically don't pursue a research career, correct? Is this because it somehow impedes their opportunity to do so, or is the profile of the average DO just someone who wants to spend their career in the clinic?

After your PhD did you take the MD or DO route? I'd love to hear how the PhD influenced your medical ventures if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks again for the reply 🙂

 

[Dral]

I'm admittedly ignorant as to why research doesn't seem to go with the DO route. I'll let someone else field that one.

I went MD. I believe the PhD helped me get interviews (I had a 3.89 and MCAT equiv of 520 which helped of course). I applied to a lot of top MD schools and no DO schools. I got a decent number of interviews but only got accepted straight away to UVA. That worked well since UVA is a pretty good school and I love Charlottesville. However, while they do research there, it's no UPenn or Hopkins.

Again, I believe the PhD helped me get interviews for residency (I applied to a competitive specialty). However, by that point I had decided I probably wasn't going to pursue a research program. Thus, I think I was sort of a 'let down' to residency programs that interviewed me. *shrug*. I got a spot somewhere so it's all good.

Other than the interview process, my PhD work helped me understand certain topics more easily (such as molecular biology and research techniques) that are covered in med school.

We try to help others here with advice best we can....and hopefully we are giving you some insight, but this is one you're really gonna have to figure out for yourself. I'm not going to be the one to tell you to get a PhD and have you regret it down the line.

Anyway, best of luck. I'd be happy to try to answer any other questions you may have.

 

[Thomas11]

@Dral , thank you for the bluntness. It's an easily googleable question, but DOs typically don't pursue a research career, correct? Is this because it somehow impedes their opportunity to do so, or is the profile of the average DO just someone who wants to spend their career in the clinic?

After your PhD did you take the MD or DO route? I'd love to hear how the PhD influenced your medical ventures if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks again for the reply 🙂

To anyone interested in the MD/DO disparity in research, here is a good article:

Why Do MDs Get More Research Dollars Than Doctors of Osteopathy?

And what exactly is osteopathy, anyway?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

 

[William R. Anderson]

Having a high level graduate degree is helpful not only getting into medical school, but also when you get out and start practicing medicine. I initially did my PhD in physiology with a minor in pharmacology. It gave me greater understanding of what i was seeing as a physician. As with other PhDs that I have met during the years, it is obvious they have a more in depth understanding of the science behind the medicine. Face it, learning medicine is mostly memorization. Thats why admission commitees look at your organic chemistry grade to gauge your ability to memorize. Doing a PhD is doing original science, which most times includes knowledge mastered from multple disciplines to complete your research. It was hard work but rewarding for me. I started my residency at age 30 and now have practiced over 30 years.....no regrets.