Univ of Chicago vs Rush

[STLove]

At this point, it's come down to these two programs for me. I enjoyed my time with both, but they each have strengths and weaknesses. I love UChicago's academic atmosphere, their residents seemed genuinely happy, their new program director seemed really responsive to feedback, and I got to sit in on some of their didactics (protected), and it was a great interactive atmosphere, smallish close knit program between faculty and residents with close great mentorship throughout your residency, and I've heard (not sure if this is true) that they have a good work life balance. Their main weakness is their inpatient Psych. UChicago closed their in house unit like 10 years ago, so now they use satellite sites. One of which is new and is being established right now for next year. They lost a lot of faculty then, but have been actively recruiting and hiring since then. Both are 15 miles in opposite directions of campus (one in a poor area, one in a middle class suburb). You still spend a good deal of time in UChicago due to Emerg Psych (new ED being built right now with Psych pod opening in Jan 2018, and C/L, which is really strong there). No nights during PGY1, once a week or so during PGY2, and none PGY3/4. If you do nights during PGY3/4, it's in house moonlighting. All OP during PGY3/4 at UChicago's campus. You can spend 75% of your PGY4 just doing research (a research project is expected).

For Rush, their strengths are great too. They have a great inpatient unit, with separate units for child, psychosis, geriatric, depression. They have good OP with a wide array of patients. Their residents seem to really like each other. Not quite as academic of an atmosphere, their didactics don't seem that strong, and the residents seem to definitely work harder than at UChicago. Rush is definitely expanding, though, with a new OP center planned to be completed in 2020. Everything is in house, besides some time spent at nearby Cook County hospital. Their residents don't come from as "prestigious" med schools as UChicago, if that means anything. Their research isn't that strong or pushed, no in house moonlighting, and they seem to get a lot of volume, with a good variety. My main issue with them is seemingly the work life balance, as it just doesn't seem to be as good as UChicago. They have high hopes for their program, though, and they seem to have a great chairman in charge.

My hope is to get into private practice (not sure which name would be better for that), possibly with some cash component. I'm thinking about pursuing a child fellowship. Both have in house programs. UChicago's inpatient child is mainly at Highland Park Hospital (located in a very wealthy northern suburb, but also far from campus). Rush is once again in house.

Just seeking some advice and what you guys think?

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[Merovinge]

I tell all applicants this and I think it very much applies to your situation. The only time I see anyone truly upset with a Chicago psychiatry residency is when they do not match their desire/willingness/capability to do clinical work with what the program expects. Rush and UofC are nearly diametrically opposed in this regard and I would absolutely base my decision based on this. Some people learn a lot better through didactics and time for personal reading/research, others learn better from just seeing a high volume of patients (this is me, so I am not throwing shade on either of the two styles) and might even enjoy busy calls.

 

[chicagochildpsych]

In the Chicago job market U of Chicago trainees are highly sought after, fwiw.


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[STLove]

In the Chicago job market U of Chicago trainees are highly sought after, fwiw.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

For Child Psych? Or also general Psych? And any particular reason why? Is it a name brand thing?

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

If you want an academic career UChicago without question. They have some strong faculty members (ie, Jon Grant) and are getting better quality residents every year

 

[STLove]

If you want an academic career UChicago without question. They have some strong faculty members (ie, Jon Grant) and are getting better quality residents every year

Right now, I'm thinking about PP, but of course, I could always change to academia.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm an alumnus of Pritzker, so while I have some experience from the program from the perspective of a medical student, I'm less familiar with it from the perspective of being a resident. However, I did know several of the residents and spoke with them about their experience quite extensively when I was in the process of interviewing.

The psychiatry department at the U of C is in a somewhat tough place historically. On the one hand, most of the faculty are outstanding. I really enjoyed all of the clinical teaching from all of the faculty that I worked with and found them to be outstanding teachers, on top of the literature, etc.. I think the clinical education is top-notch. The department also seems to be making strides to build itself as a research-heavy department, and a few faculty are quite research-focused. Obviously this is a good thing if research is what you're interested in. The name is helpful, though I think it's questionable how much of that "reputation" is simply bleeding over from the U of C generally rather than the reputation of the psychiatry department specifically. I guess it doesn't really matter all that much from a pragmatic perspective.

That being said, there are (or used to be - maybe this is no longer the case since I left ~2 years ago) institutional issues that I think hurt the department. Compared to the other clinical departments, the psychiatry department simply isn't supported nearly as much by the institution. You can see this quite plainly by the fact that the UCMC doesn't have an inpatient unit (though it used to). It also hurts the department in more subtle ways. There are (or were) a lot of political issues in the department, though this isn't particularly unique in academic medicine. I think it is somewhat telling that U of C alumnae very seldom stay at the U of C for their psychiatry residency. Most graduates that want to stay in Chicago go to other programs in the area.

From my perspective, I thought the U of C was - based on an overall gestalt impression - one of the weaker Chicago programs. I preferred Northwestern and UIC over the U of C, for example (didn't interview at Rush). I don't think the U of C is a bad program per se - just that other programs are more "stable," developed, and have significantly more institutional support. In my mind, all of those things are significant advantages that should be taken into account, but they may not be particularly important to you. I should add that these things may very well have changed since I was there, and I definitely felt when I graduated that the program was on the up-and-up. I don't know to what degree that momentum has continued, though.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Merovinge]

I'm an alumnus of Pritzker, so while I have some experience from the program from the perspective of a medical student, I'm less familiar with it from the perspective of being a resident. However, I did know several of the residents and spoke with them about their experience quite extensively when I was in the process of interviewing.

The psychiatry department at the U of C is in a somewhat tough place historically. On the one hand, most of the faculty are outstanding. I really enjoyed all of the clinical teaching from all of the faculty that I worked with and found them to be outstanding teachers, on top of the literature, etc.. I think the clinical education is top-notch. The department also seems to be making strides to build itself as a research-heavy department, and a few faculty are quite research-focused. Obviously this is a good thing if research is what you're interested in. The name is helpful, though I think it's questionable how much of that "reputation" is simply bleeding over from the U of C generally rather than the reputation of the psychiatry department specifically. I guess it doesn't really matter all that much from a pragmatic perspective.

That being said, there are (or used to be - maybe this is no longer the case since I left ~2 years ago) institutional issues that I think hurt the department. Compared to the other clinical departments, the psychiatry department simply isn't supported nearly as much by the institution. You can see this quite plainly by the fact that the UCMC doesn't have an inpatient unit (though it used to). It also hurts the department in more subtle ways. There are (or were) a lot of political issues in the department, though this isn't particularly unique in academic medicine. I think it is somewhat telling that U of C alumnae very seldom stay at the U of C for their psychiatry residency. Most graduates that want to stay in Chicago go to other programs in the area.

From my perspective, I thought the U of C was - based on an overall gestalt impression - one of the weaker Chicago programs. I preferred Northwestern and UIC over the U of C, for example (didn't interview at Rush). I don't think the U of C is a bad program per se - just that other programs are more "stable," developed, and have significantly more institutional support. In my mind, all of those things are significant advantages that should be taken into account, but they may not be particularly important to you. I should add that these things may very well have changed since I was there, and I definitely felt when I graduated that the program was on the up-and-up. I don't know to what degree that momentum has continued, though.

Just my thoughts.

That's an extremely helpful post for applicants; the kind of thing that is very difficult to know if you have not been interacting in the Chicago Psychiatry world for years and what makes applying/ranking so tough!

 

[STLove]

I'm an alumnus of Pritzker, so while I have some experience from the program from the perspective of a medical student, I'm less familiar with it from the perspective of being a resident. However, I did know several of the residents and spoke with them about their experience quite extensively when I was in the process of interviewing.

The psychiatry department at the U of C is in a somewhat tough place historically. On the one hand, most of the faculty are outstanding. I really enjoyed all of the clinical teaching from all of the faculty that I worked with and found them to be outstanding teachers, on top of the literature, etc.. I think the clinical education is top-notch. The department also seems to be making strides to build itself as a research-heavy department, and a few faculty are quite research-focused. Obviously this is a good thing if research is what you're interested in. The name is helpful, though I think it's questionable how much of that "reputation" is simply bleeding over from the U of C generally rather than the reputation of the psychiatry department specifically. I guess it doesn't really matter all that much from a pragmatic perspective.

That being said, there are (or used to be - maybe this is no longer the case since I left ~2 years ago) institutional issues that I think hurt the department. Compared to the other clinical departments, the psychiatry department simply isn't supported nearly as much by the institution. You can see this quite plainly by the fact that the UCMC doesn't have an inpatient unit (though it used to). It also hurts the department in more subtle ways. There are (or were) a lot of political issues in the department, though this isn't particularly unique in academic medicine. I think it is somewhat telling that U of C alumnae very seldom stay at the U of C for their psychiatry residency. Most graduates that want to stay in Chicago go to other programs in the area.

From my perspective, I thought the U of C was - based on an overall gestalt impression - one of the weaker Chicago programs. I preferred Northwestern and UIC over the U of C, for example (didn't interview at Rush). I don't think the U of C is a bad program per se - just that other programs are more "stable," developed, and have significantly more institutional support. In my mind, all of those things are significant advantages that should be taken into account, but they may not be particularly important to you. I should add that these things may very well have changed since I was there, and I definitely felt when I graduated that the program was on the up-and-up. I don't know to what degree that momentum has continued, though.

Just my thoughts.

Thank you for your response. How happy did you find the UChicago residents? Did you feel like they had a good work/life balance? I got the sense from being there for a bit that they may very well be the happiest residents in the city. The new program director seemed really keen on resident feedback. Of course, the institutional support is what I'm concerned about. Rush has strong institutional support for psychiatry. I got the sense that things had turned around at UChicago when it comes to institutional support, with another inpatient psych unit being added and a separate psych portion to the new ED, but of course, I can't be sure. The faculty seemed to be getting along well, as well.

 

[NickNaylor]

Thank you for your response. How happy did you find the UChicago residents? Did you feel like they had a good work/life balance? I got the sense from being there for a bit that they may very well be the happiest residents in the city. The new program director seemed really keen on resident feedback. Of course, the institutional support is what I'm concerned about. Rush has strong institutional support for psychiatry. I got the sense that things had turned around at UChicago when it comes to institutional support, with another inpatient psych unit being added and a separate psych portion to the new ED, but of course, I can't be sure. The faculty seemed to be getting along well, as well.

I loved all of the residents that I worked with. They seemed quite happy when I was there.

I'm clearly behind the times as I didn't realize that there was even a new program director. However, Dr. Cooper is an outstanding clinician (he is one of the folks I was talking about in my previous post) - super smart, very nice, and a pretty reasonable guy. I have no idea how that translates into a leadership position, but I imagine he would be an outstanding director. I didn't know Dr. Spitz (the previous director) all that well and only met her on my own interview at the U of C.

I would trust your general impression over mine as I'm operating on old information.

 

[WingedOx]

At this point, it's come down to these two programs for me. I enjoyed my time with both, but they each have strengths and weaknesses. I love UChicago's academic atmosphere, their residents seemed genuinely happy, their new program director seemed really responsive to feedback, and I got to sit in on some of their didactics (protected), and it was a great interactive atmosphere, smallish close knit program between faculty and residents with close great mentorship throughout your residency, and I've heard (not sure if this is true) that they have a good work life balance. Their main weakness is their inpatient Psych. UChicago closed their in house unit like 10 years ago, so now they use satellite sites. One of which is new and is being established right now for next year. They lost a lot of faculty then, but have been actively recruiting and hiring since then. Both are 15 miles in opposite directions of campus (one in a poor area, one in a middle class suburb). You still spend a good deal of time in UChicago due to Emerg Psych (new ED being built right now with Psych pod opening in Jan 2018, and C/L, which is really strong there). No nights during PGY1, once a week or so during PGY2, and none PGY3/4. If you do nights during PGY3/4, it's in house moonlighting. All OP during PGY3/4 at UChicago's campus. You can spend 75% of your PGY4 just doing research (a research project is expected).

For Rush, their strengths are great too. They have a great inpatient unit, with separate units for child, psychosis, geriatric, depression. They have good OP with a wide array of patients. Their residents seem to really like each other. Not quite as academic of an atmosphere, their didactics don't seem that strong, and the residents seem to definitely work harder than at UChicago. Rush is definitely expanding, though, with a new OP center planned to be completed in 2020. Everything is in house, besides some time spent at nearby Cook County hospital. Their residents don't come from as "prestigious" med schools as UChicago, if that means anything. Their research isn't that strong or pushed, no in house moonlighting, and they seem to get a lot of volume, with a good variety. My main issue with them is seemingly the work life balance, as it just doesn't seem to be as good as UChicago. They have high hopes for their program, though, and they seem to have a great chairman in charge.

My hope is to get into private practice (not sure which name would be better for that), possibly with some cash component. I'm thinking about pursuing a child fellowship. Both have in house programs. UChicago's inpatient child is mainly at Highland Park Hospital (located in a very wealthy northern suburb, but also far from campus). Rush is once again in house.

Just seeking some advice and what you guys think?

I'm assuming you've noticed that if you went to UofC you'd DEFINITELY need a car, whereas Rush is a lot more central and transit accessible, if that makes a difference to your quality of life. Residents of both programs seem happy from the people I've worked with. UC has VERY good C/L.

Where is UC doing their inpatient nowadays? Still Evanston and Lakeshore? The former is fine. I have some reservations about the latter as a training site.

 

[STLove]

I'm assuming you've noticed that if you went to UofC you'd DEFINITELY need a car, whereas Rush is a lot more central and transit accessible, if that makes a difference to your quality of life. Residents of both programs seem happy from the people I've worked with. UC has VERY good C/L.

Where is UC doing their inpatient nowadays? Still Evanston and Lakeshore? The former is fine. I have some reservations about the latter as a training site.

No, they're leaving Lakeshore and looking to establish another inpatient unit, similar to Evanston, at Ingalls hospital, which UChicago recently purchased. Everyone there seemed happy with this development, as it would allow them to bring over their own faculty and train the nursing staff as they would like and run the unit as they see fit.

 

[STLove]

No, they're leaving Lakeshore and looking to establish another inpatient unit, similar to Evanston, at Ingalls hospital, which UChicago recently purchased.

sounds like a disaster waiting to happen... you can't teach an old dog new tricks

Well, don't take my word for it. I'm honestly not sure if that's the case, or they'll be hiring a new nursing staff. It may honestly be the latter. Regardless, they seemed really happy with the development.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm assuming you've noticed that if you went to UofC you'd DEFINITELY need a car, whereas Rush is a lot more central and transit accessible, if that makes a difference to your quality of life. Residents of both programs seem happy from the people I've worked with. UC has VERY good C/L.

Where is UC doing their inpatient nowadays? Still Evanston and Lakeshore? The former is fine. I have some reservations about the latter as a training site.

This is definitely a good point, and really something that shouldn't be taken from granted. Since most residents live in the downtown area, expect a 30-45 minute drive one-way to Evanston in the best of conditions. Likely more with any significant degree of traffic.

This was also a big negative for me. I don't necessarily mind driving (I essentially drive the same amount of time currently to one of our sites), but driving in Chicago sucks. Then again, if you're looking to stay in Chicago you already know this.

 

[STLove]

This is definitely a good point, and really something that shouldn't be taken from granted. Since most residents live in the downtown area, expect a 30-45 minute drive one-way to Evanston in the best of conditions. Likely more with any significant degree of traffic.

This was also a big negative for me. I don't necessarily mind driving (I essentially drive the same amount of time currently to one of our sites), but driving in Chicago sucks. Then again, if you're looking to stay in Chicago you already know this.

Yeah, driving in Chicago isn't the greatest. I'm used to it, though, as I go to a med school in the city, but live in the suburbs.

 

[Merovinge]

sounds like a disaster waiting to happen... you can't teach an old dog new tricks

I'm very excited to see how this goes for them. Ingalls is about as far from an academic psych unit as possible so it will be a monumental culture change. I will be extremely impressed if they pull it off.

 

[STLove]

Yeah, they seemed really excited about the development. They've said that they've had multiple meetings with the Ingalls brass about what they want, and they seemed very pleased with how things are going, and they feel that it will be much better than Lakeshore, so we'll see.