Univ of Michigan: What residencies/specialties is UMich well known for or has a great

[quentintarrantino]

reputation for? Please post what specialties or residencies is the Univ of Michigan really well known for or has a really good reputation for?

Are these specialties/residencies good for producing academic docs, researchers, or straight clinical physicians?

Thank you so much for any and all help you could provide for me at this time.

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[droliver]

Michigan has the largest & most well-funded (thru endowments) Department of Surgery in the country

 

[quentintarrantino]

If you could point me to where I might find such information on my own (more than just NIH funding aka extramural type stuff) or if you want to private message me, feel free.

Thank you droliver.

 

[Sheerstress]

quentintarrantino:

From all I know and have heard (I went to U of M for undergrad, did some research through the family practice department), U of M is a top-notch research and academic center, and prides itself on being so (believe me, they'll make it clear to you If you want a career in academic or research medicine, you will not be lacking in just about all specialties.

I also know lots of people who did med school and residency there. One of my former surgery attendings, for example, did both his general surgery residency and trauma fellowship at U of M hospital, and from everything he told me, they really beat the crap out of him the entire time he was there. The program is pyramidal as well, meaning that after a few years in the program, only a certain number of residents will be allowed to complete the categorical program. [He described it as them "bringing you into the office, sitting you down, and telling you that they don't think you're going to make it as a surgeon."]

With that said, if you've got your mind set on a particular U of M program, make sure you talk to as many people as possible, and know what you want out of a residency.

 

[quentintarrantino]

Thanks Sheerstress.

So if Univ of Mich Surgery Dept is exceptional than is it fair to say that the Anesthesia Dept is exceptional, even among great medical centers, because of how many total and how many specialized surgeries go on there or is that too much of a stretch?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Is it really true that U of Mich is pyramidal? I didn't think there were any left (because of RRC policies) except in the military (which isn't subject to RRC).

 

[droliver]

Kimberli,

There are no more pyramydial programs left @ all for several years now due to RRC regulations. That being said, all residencies are on a yearly contract renewal basis & you can simply not be renewed if a program feels you aren't qualified for whatever reason. However, after PGY-1 years there have been a # of lawsuits filed by residents who were fired & many programs are reluctant to do it now unless there are documented agregious episodes of misconduct or incompetence. A reputation for frequently firing residents (ie. a defect pyramid system)can hurt severely hurt recuiting efforts of prospective candidates for a program. I think most frequently what happens is that people who are having problems are quickly identified & tend to not be very happy residents. Many will quit, transfer to other programs, change to other specialties (frequenlty anesthesia), or have sit-downs with an attending or chairman to discuss their future (or lack thereof) @ their program. Most people tend to leave before it comes to having to fire them.

 

[droliver]

Oh yeah....

I was surprised by the notion that Michigan would be regarded as a malignant surgery division. I'm not intimately familiar with the program but there are two recent graduates from here (Louisville) who're attendings in Vascular & trauma there & one of our chief residents will be the trauma/critical care fellow there for the next two years, and I have always had the impression from all of them that it was a very relaxed,suburban feel to the program and a little more informal than many of the major surgery ivory towers.

 

[jeffb]

It is not true that all pyramidal residency programs are abolished. Ex: Lady of Mercy in NY has a pyramidal program. There are a few others as well that I have heard about from my friends a while back that I don't remember the names of.

 

[droliver]

jeffb,

I will repeat: THERE ARE NO PYRAMID PROGRAMS ANYMORE.

This practice was strictly abolished by the RRC. A program cannot take more categorical residents than they can graduate without special dispensation by the RRC. Preliminary posistions (nonguarenteed tract) can be pyramided out ....sort of . A prelim resident may be kept on and advanced to his second year with the hope that a spot will open up in the program with someone leaving or going into the lab. If no spot opens up, they have to look elsewhere. This is not a pyramid in the traditional sense (unless you'er the non-categorical resident invovled ). When my father did his intern year @ Penn in the mid 60's @ Penn there were 16 interns & the program graduated 4 chiefs & it was every man for himself. That was a pyramid system! These systems were phased out a number of years ago & violation of it can result in loss of accredidation

 

[surg]

I can say definitively that Michigan is not a pyramidal program and has not been for a very long time. If anything Michigan is generally considered to be one of the more relaxed programs in regards to hours and lifestyle (in the context of large prestige academic centers). Certainly in the past it has had its share of q2 call (last class to take significant q2 call though was the intern class from about 5 years ago) but now it is q3 or better all the time.
Residents there do not pre-round, post call interns often get out early unless they are operating. Days off actually happen. Very little yelling. Can't imagine this being the description of a "program that beats the crap out of" anybody that is going into a top tier surgery program.


Don't know how long ago your former surgery attending was there, but at least for the length of time I've been familiar with the program, I would say that this has not been the case.

 

[Sheerstress]

Whoa...sorry to have caused all this fuss! The attending to whom I was referring to would have been there from approximately 1991-97 (five years general, one year trauma). He was in private practice in Ohio for the following year before he came to our institution.

And as for my description of the program, well, that's EXACTLY how he described it - and added that he "suffered" during his years there. I can't verify any of this from anything other than his description, although I will admit that I later, at an ATLS class, met a resident from the program at St. Joe's several miles away, who seemed to be doing fine with her program. I don't even know what the relationship between the two programs are (I'm assuming they're both U of M programs given that St. Joe's and U of M hospitals are both training centers for numerous specialities). Hope this clears things up!

 

[WSU02]

No, UM and St Joe's AA are two different beasts. UM is a university hospital in every sense of the word. St Joe's is a local community hospital. St Joe's is affliated with UM's med school and Wayne State's med school.
Kristi

 

[surg]

Originally posted by Sheerstress:
•Whoa...sorry to have caused all this fuss! The attending to whom I was referring to would have been there from approximately 1991-97 (five years general, one year trauma). He was in private practice in Ohio for the following year before he came to our institution.

And as for my description of the program, well, that's EXACTLY how he described it - and added that he "suffered" during his years there. I can't verify any of this from anything other than his description, although I will admit that I later, at an ATLS class, met a resident from the program at St. Joe's several miles away, who seemed to be doing fine with her program. I don't even know what the relationship between the two programs are (I'm assuming they're both U of M programs given that St. Joe's and U of M hospitals are both training centers for numerous specialities). Hope this clears things up!•••

Yes, when he was an Intern in 1991 (I actually can guess who this attending is based on the bio), he pretty much did a ton of q2 (probably 8 months out of the first 12 if not more) and still had 4 months of q2 in house Trauma call in his 4th year. It was definitely a tougher program then compared to now hours wise. That has changed dramatically since that 1991 and more dramatically since 1997. He finished up right on the cusp of the biggest changes. As far as how often the "crying couch" really resulted in someone not continuing, let's just say that I agree with droliver and that I know for a fact that the couch has been retired to the lounge area.

Summary: I think we both gave accurate descriptions of this program at different points in its history. I didn't mean to offend you with my response (if it did), only to point out that the current state of affairs is very different from the past.

Oh, and yes, St. Joseph's and U-M while only across town and having a few cross rotations, are separate residencies as Kristi said.

 

[droliver]

Surg,

I take it you're @ Michigan(?). We (louisville) have a lot of ties there. Peter Henke graduated here right before I started & Glen Franklin was the trauma fellow here my first two years ( and is on his way back here I understand). Jorge Rodriguez (former trauma chief @ UM in the mid ninties) just came back here as well to be chief of surgery @ the University Hosp.

 

[Sheerstress]

surg:

Thanks for the response - if anyone's done any offending here, it's me! The attending I've been talking about was a great guy to work with, and he did tell some funny stories about Jorge Rodriguez.