Universal Healthcare Poll!

[pAkhtmAn]

I just wanted to gauge support for a single-payer universal healthcare system on this list...

So the question is...
Would you (in theory) support a single-payer universal health care system?

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[HoMuffin]

Yes!

 

[HoMuffin]

Silly newbie, VOTE, don't post!

 

[pAkhtmAn]

bump...

 

[SolidGold]

Well, I voted no. Its something I would like to see down the road, but I think that it would not work if it was implemented today. Many people forget that despite all the problems that the US seems to have with healthcare, the US has a better healthcare system than most countries and better medical care than every country in the world.

Everyone in the US, even illegal immigrants, have a right for medical treatment in any ER at any hospital in the US. Sure there are problems with the current system and reform is necessary, but does anyone really feel comfortable having the government provide us with universal health care right now?

 

[gramcracker]

SolidGold, you just really showed your ignorance about health care and international health rankings.

The US ranked 37th by the WHO in terms of a worldwide comparison of health systems. see here

If you can tell me how we're the best, when we spend billions more than other nations, and still don't cover our entire population, I'd love to hear your argument. I'm not sure if you've heard the prevention argument, but it goes like this: if we give people basic primary care, and help them when they're just becoming ill, it'll be cheaper and better for patients, doctors--the entire health care system. The ER system is a safety net, and an expensive one at that. Also: dumping is far too common in the US. Although it's federal law that you can't turn away emergency patients, hospitals dump patients at other hospitals or refuse ambulances all the time.

 

[SolidGold]

I think you missed understood what I was saying. I said the US has the best to offer in terms of "medical care." Tell me one other country that has more to offer its patients when it comes to giving them the best treatment possible. If you want to be a doctor and are going by some WHO rankings why don't you go to another country to practice?????

Also give me your best argument for universal health care here in the US today. If your so knowledgable, then you would know that the Clinton Administration favored universal health care and sought reform in order to make it possible, but it got shot down faster than an Iraqi missle.

 

[gramcracker]

Originally posted by SolidGold
I think you missed understood what I was saying. I said the US has the best to offer in terms of "medical care." Tell me one other country that has more to offer its patients when it comes to giving them the best treatment possible. If you want to be a doctor and are going by some WHO rankings why don't you go to another country to practice?????

Also give me your best argument for universal health care here in the US today. If your so knowledgable, then you would know that the Clinton Administration favored universal health care and sought reform in order to make it possible, but it got shot down faster than an Iraqi missle.

1) The WHO data took outcomes into consideration in its report. The US still fairs poorly, relative to other countries. Our average age of mortality is lower, our infant mortality is higher. (Case in point: A lot of people argue that, for example, Canada doesn't have enough MRI machines. If you look at health outcomes, however--factual, statistical *data*, there isn't always a whole lot of support that MRIs greatly improve health *outcomes*.)

2) I'm going by WHO rankings because they're as close as we can get to a non-partisan agency that provides health statistics. If you can suggest a better source, I'd be happy to look at it. (And just because I use international data doesn't mean I want to leave the US. This is my home, there are people who need medical help. I'm interested in serving as an international volunteer sometime, however. And Paris would be fun to work in, too. :>)

3) My best argument for NHI in the US today: It would save businesses money, simplify work for doctors, allow true patient choice in choosing a doctor, provide a more-level playing field for the rich and poor, allow the uninsured a chance to retain their dignity, and maybe most of all, improve the health of the population of the United States.

4) The Clinton plan favored a corporate version of reform, which I don't trust in the least. It would have pushed all but the very-rich into HMOs, which are notoriously bad for fraud, lack of patient care, denying life-saving treatments... you seem familiar with the Clinton plan as well, so I'm sure you realize Hillary's task force and governance board to investing the Clinton plan was full of advisors with strong ties to the health care industry, and its Congressional leaders were, for a good part, the same ones that received great lump sums from the health care industry as well.

 

[Street Philosopher]

after some study, i've come to the conclusion that buffets don't work. either the food will be all crappy or you gotta get out of your seat to get it. also there will be people overeating because it's the same cost.

 

[gramcracker]

Originally posted by Street Philosopher
after some study, i've come to the conclusion that buffets don't work. either the food will be all crappy or you gotta get out of your seat to get it. also there will be people overeating because it's the same cost.

Dunno what to tell you. Ask other countries about their programs. They seem to like them (especially if you ask them if they'd like to change to an American-style program).

And granted, we don't have many stigmas against seeing doctors, because we want to be them, but a lot of people don't like going to the doctor. It's uncomfortable. They avoid it if they can. Some people may want or try to overeat, but it's still the doctor's decision on how much care they receive. You can't just go to a doctor and say "I want a chest biopsy," or "I want back surgery!" The doctor still acts as a gatekeeper in that sense.

 

[Street Philosopher]

You bring up a good point. Systems are useless in theory; what matters is how well it works in practice. The reason I don't think single payer would work is because I get the impression that it's not working in Canada and Britain, two countries who have single payer type systems.

In Canada, they manage costs for expensive operations by setting a quota. This of course causes backlog and people often wait a long time. This is also why people come to the US to get treatment. To me this seems like a stupid way to manage costs and sort of defeats the purpose of single payer. It also tells me that people do not get the same level of healthcare, which is one of the most important justifications for single payer.

You can save on tips by going to a buffet, but that doesn't mean it's more efficient.

 

[Street Philosopher]

I think I should add for the sake of fairness that there were some polls taken in Canada. I don't remember exactly but I believe people, although generally dissatisfied with the system (for the reasons mentioned above), prefer it to the US system. So I don't know how to make it better. I can get some links up in this later but I have class now.

 

[NineSixteen]

Originally posted by Street Philosopher
This of course causes backlog and people often wait a long time. This is also why people come to the US to get treatment

How many people remember in undergrad one year how there was going to be a mass murder in an (insert letter that fits the shape of one of the dorms on your campus) shaped dorm that is situated next to a (forest, railroad tracks, river...whatever fits your campus) and everyone SWEARS that they heard this from a friend who heard it on (Oprah, Dateline, any other "reputable source"). Urban Legend, circulates around every campus every 5 years or so, enough time for everyone to graduate and a new group comes around.

Anyway, the "floods" of Canadians coming to the US for treatment it the urban legend of opponents to national health care, it persists because people hear it and they want it to make sense, right? We all really want to believe that we have the best possible health care in the world, right? What American doesn't want to believe that we're the best at practically everything, especially health care? Unfortunately, it's just simply not true. There are Canadians who get health care in the US - 2.3 out of every 1,000 admissions of Canadians to hospitals are to US hospitals. 80% of those admissions are emergency or related to child birth, as in, those people were visiting the US and had to go to the hospital. So 1/5 of 2.3 of 1,000 admissions are elective admissions of Canadians to US hospitals. For every 10,000 Canadians who go to the hospital in Canada, less than 5 come to the US. I would certainly not call that a lot of Canadians coming to the US, and I could provide more data to show that of those 5 people, most are not coming because they have to wait too long in Canada, they are coming because there are certain procedures that are not available in Canada. Those procedures will not disappear from the US health care system if we go to a single payer. So the long lines theory in Canada doesn't hold water. By the way, I have health insurance that I have to pay quite a bit of money for, and I called my doctor to make an appointment. January 6 is my appointment. That's a long time. Maybe I should head to Canada