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Dr. Mantis Tobogan

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I know this is a lame question, so sorry in advance. Anybody out there have any success stories to share about DOs going to university IM programs?

I'm aware that this happens semi-frequently, but I wanted to know if anyone had specific examples and what kind of scores/research or whatever that they had. It's easy to find university programs with DOs but it's impossible to know if each of those people were just around the average for IM or if they were beasts with 250+ and 5+ pubs.

I'm really interested in cardiology specifically, so obviously it would behoove me to shoot for at least a low-mid/mid tier program (whatever that really means). But just trying to get a feel for how realistic that even is.

Thanks!
 

Lexdiamondz

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Dude there are mad DOs in University IM programs. Are we talking Hopkins, MGH or Penn? no. But between Penn and your run of the mill IMG sweatshop hellhole in the Bronx there are thousands of residency spots in respectable mid-tier university IM programs. You'll be fine.
 
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Peach Newport

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Dude there are mad DOs in University IM programs. Are we talking Hopkins, MGH or Penn? no. But between Penn and your run of the mill IMG sweatshop hellhole in the Bronx there are thousands of residency spots in respectable mid-tier university IM programs. You'll be fine.

There are definitely a few pretty damn decent university IM programs that have taken DOs (Montefiore comes to mind), but the number is pretty few. When you look at DO match lists and check out the university IM matches, you see that the programs are usually something like 50% IMG, 25% DO, and 25% from the home program. To say there are lots of DOs in "mid tier" IM programs is not true.
 
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Rekt

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Dude there are mad DOs in University IM programs. Are we talking Hopkins, MGH or Penn? no. But between Penn and your run of the mill IMG sweatshop hellhole in the Bronx there are thousands of residency spots in respectable mid-tier university IM programs. You'll be fine.

Yeah, "University IM" doesn't really mean anything. If you have a decent step score, COMLEX, and some LORs then you can match to a university.
 
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Dr. Mantis Tobogan

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Yeah, "University IM" doesn't really mean anything. If you have a decent step score, COMLEX, and some LORs then you can match to a university.

Well to be more specific I just want a place that I could at least be in consideration for a cardiology fellowship either in-house or at place of a similar level. Examples of some places I'm talking about are like U of Florida, Arizona, Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas-Houston, Texas-San Antonio.

Nothing like Hopkins, Duke, MGH or anything.
 

AlteredScale

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Well to be more specific I just want a place that I could at least be in consideration for a cardiology fellowship either in-house or at place of a similar level. Examples of some places I'm talking about are like U of Florida, Arizona, Tennessee, Kentucky, Texas-Houston, Texas-San Antonio.

Nothing like Hopkins, Duke, MGH or anything.

Most of those places you just listed are not super competitive and most of them actually interview applicants with strong comlex only (620+, 90th percentile up) scores so as long as you have some other solid pieces to your CV that help you stand out (research, teaching, community work etc). UT Houston is a bit more competitive with its relationship to MD Anderson and having their IM residents have an opportunity to rotate there.

Wake Forest, Cleveland Clinic normally accept DOs and have consistently placed them into fellowship. You will need a step score.

Also look at Scripps Green, UMinnesota, and UColorado all of which have accepted 1-2 DOs a year recently. You will def need a step score and a good one. Scripps Green won't let you rotate there as an M4 without one and currently their one DO seems to be a very strong one at that.

All that being said. A 250 and 650 on step and comlex accordingly doesn't guarantee anything at many university programs simply because they have hordes of MD applicants with the same scores with better LORs, better research, and more entrusted clinical rotation training. I understand there will be the naysayers who state that MD students also get meh training but it's a perception thing to PDs and in many cases, probably a realism if they happen to "risk" taking a DO who can't keep up clinically compared to the MDs. So take time to do your research on university IM and see which ones have accepted grads from your DO school.




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68PGunner

Yeah, "University IM" doesn't really mean anything. If you have a decent step score, COMLEX, and some LORs then you can match to a university.

Pls define define a decent step score.
 

Dr. Mantis Tobogan

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Pls define define a decent step score.
^^^up there talking about a 620+ on COMLEX seems a little disheartening...

I was hoping to hear something like "get a 225+ and a 550+ and you'll be fine!" Haha but alas, I guess I should be studying harder.
 
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68PGunner

Can we please be more specific about stats like Step 1 range, research/no research, ECs, and clinical grades when it comes to a competitive application to decent IM programs with in house fellowships assuming that the applicant is geographically flexible?
 

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Most of those places you just listed are not super competitive and most of them actually interview applicants with strong comlex only (620+, 90th percentile up) scores so as long as you have some other solid pieces to your CV that help you stand out (research, teaching, community work etc). I think UT Houston is a bit more competitive with its relationship to MD Anderson and having their IM residents have an opportunity to rotate there.

Wake Forest, Cleveland Clinic normally accept DOs and have consistently placed them into fellowship.

Also look at Scripps Green, UMinnesota, and UColorado all of which have accepted 1-2 DOs a year recently.




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Which ones of those accept people without a USMLE?
 

AlteredScale

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^^^up there talking about a 620+ on COMLEX seems a little disheartening...

I was hoping to hear something like "get a 225+ and a 550+ and you'll be fine!" Haha but alas, I guess I should be studying harder.

600 isn't terribly hard to get. I know for certain that a lot of university programs use that as a cutoff but I've also seen a lot of 550+ as cutoffs which makes sense since that's still an above average score.

FWIW a good comlex can get you to a place like UCSF-Fresno. But if you look at their in house fellowships the competitive ones usually don't have any DOs in but they still usually end up matching into something.


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AlteredScale

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Can we please be more specific about stats like Step 1 range, research/no research, ECs, and clinical grades when it comes to a competitive application to decent IM programs with in house fellowships assuming that the applicant is geographically flexible?

That's so program dependent it's impossible to be so specific. I'm sure a 220+ and 550+ is fine for many places and maybe a 230+ 600+ would get you a few more but it's such a crapshoot once you start applying to stronger (or more prestigious in perception) IM programs like UCSD, UColorado simply because they only accept 1-2 DOs a year.

Research is always good to have especially if you're wanting to do university IM AND want to do fellowship. The closer I get to actually applying the more I keep hearing that program directors can count but they can't read when it comes to research. So better to have 8 case reports at a single national conference or 1 PLoS one paper accepted? Idk.

Clinical grades: honor your medicine rotation.


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burritowithgreensauce

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i did it without steps and a comlex scores +/- 1 std deviation of average. it's doable. not easy, but doable.

edit: also, please realize people do/do not do fellowship because of a multitude of reasons.
 
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Dr. Mantis Tobogan

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i did it without steps and a comlex scores +/- 1 std deviation of average. it's doable. not easy, but doable.

edit: also, please realize people do/do not do fellowship because of a multitude of reasons.

Thanks for responding. That's good to hear.

Also, absolutely. I could see hospitalist/outpatient IM being a great option for many people. And for those who are financially motivated, either (hospitalist especially) seem like better choices than many of the fellowships.
 
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Robotfishbrain

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Universities in the midwest are very open to DOs lately. Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan are great states to look at if you're interested. I'm interested in Indiana University IM and it has a ton of DOs in their program with plenty of fellowship opportunities.
 
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Dr. Mantis Tobogan

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Universities in the midwest are very open to DOs lately. Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan are great states to look at if you're interested. I'm interested in Indiana University IM and it has a ton of DOs in their program with plenty of fellowship opportunities.

Absolutely, that would one of my top choices.
 
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Cath Up

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That's so program dependent it's impossible to be so specific. I'm sure a 220+ and 550+ is fine for many places and maybe a 230+ 600+ would get you a few more but it's such a crapshoot once you start applying to stronger (or more prestigious in perception) IM programs like UCSD, UColorado simply because they only accept 1-2 DOs a year.

Research is always good to have especially if you're wanting to do university IM AND want to do fellowship. The closer I get to actually applying the more I keep hearing that program directors can count but they can't read when it comes to research. So better to have 8 case reports at a single national conference or 1 PLoS one paper accepted? Idk.

Clinical grades: honor your medicine rotation.


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Apologies if this is too off topic.

I have been wondering- when people discuss # of papers or conferences for residency applications, is this inclusive of research completed prior to medical school? For example, if a student is applying to residency and they have "8 papers", can 6 of these have been completed as an undergrad?
 
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68PGunner

Universities in the midwest are very open to DOs lately. Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan are great states to look at if you're interested. I'm interested in Indiana University IM and it has a ton of DOs in their program with plenty of fellowship opportunities.
@AlteredScale Does this phenomenon also apply to other specialties? I'm very open toward moving back to the Midwest due to closer proximity to my parents so that they can spend more time with their grandchildren?
 

AlteredScale

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Apologies if this is too off topic.

I have been wondering- when people discuss # of papers or conferences for residency applications, is this inclusive of research completed prior to medical school? For example, if a student is applying to residency and they have "8 papers", can 6 of these have been completed as an undergrad?

I'm not sure TBH. I know that you can include it but I don't know if it is a separate section on ERAS. @acapnial will have a better answer to this.
@AlteredScale Does this phenomenon also apply to other specialties? I'm very open toward moving back to the Midwest due to closer proximity to my parents so that they can spend more time with their grandchildren?
I believe so. KCU sends grads to ortho and ENT programs and most of them being in midwest as AOA.

The ortho program here (St. Marys) has faculty that work with our school's orthopedic 3rd year honor track and they do a pretty decent amount of research. We have a leg up on the ENT program in Joplin because we have core rotations set up there and now a new school with Mercy and Freeman as the teaching affiliate hospitals.

The specialties where I haven't seen this phenomenon are plastics, NSX, ICT, rad onc. Those are a crapshoot for anybody without an internal department in those things.

I have yet to find IU School of Medicine accept any DOs into any surgical fields but they don't list rosters so I may be wrong. They have DOs in their EM program and they write everyone up as an MD on their roster page.

The merger allows all of these previously AOA programs to accept MD applications now. Idk how much more competitive it will be to get into surgical specialties as a DO but if these AOA PDs do end up truly considering MD apps the competition will be insane IMO. There's just much more in the way of research resources and direct mentoring at MD schools than most DO schools. We have people in our class with 250+/700+ scores who are gunning ortho and plastics but without good mentors or anything in the way of research in the field I feel they are at a disadvantage come application season but I hope they are successful of course.
 
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acapnial

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I'm not sure TBH. I know that you can include it but I don't know if it is a separate section on ERAS. @acapnial will have a better answer to this.

I believe so. KCU sends grads to ortho and ENT programs and most of them being in midwest as AOA.

The ortho program here (St. Marys) has faculty that work with our school's orthopedic 3rd year honor track and they do a pretty decent amount of research. We have a leg up on the ENT program in Joplin because we have core rotations set up there and now a new school with Mercy and Freeman as the teaching affiliate hospitals.

The specialties where I haven't seen this phenomenon are plastics, NSX, ICT, rad onc. Those are a crapshoot for anybody without an internal department in those things.

I have yet to find IU School of Medicine accept any DOs into any surgical fields but they don't list rosters so I may be wrong. They have DOs in their EM program and they write everyone up as an MD on their roster page.

The merger allows all of these previously AOA programs to accept MD applications now. Idk how much more competitive it will be to get into surgical specialties as a DO but if these AOA PDs do end up truly considering MD apps the competition will be insane IMO. There's just much more in the way of research resources and direct mentoring at MD schools than most DO schools. We have people in our class with 250+/700+ scores who are gunning ortho and plastics but without good mentors or anything in the way of research in the field I feel they are at a disadvantage come application season but I hope they are successful of course.

ERAS doesn't differentiate between medical school and undergrad research (they all just show up as "research experience"), but it does show where and when you did the research. When people around here self report it depends on the individual as to whether they are including undergraduate research, of course. Medical school research carries much more weight than undergrad research but it could still help if it's something that makes your app more interesting.
 
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