yanks26dmb

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Being the neurotic worrier that I am, I'm trying to make some contingency plans in the event I'm not accepted to US MD when I apply next year.

I've written off Carib schools given the amount of information I've read and heard about. I'm open to DO schools and will be applying to about half. I recently learned about Aussie schools, UQ in particular, and have been intrigued, particularly because they spend years 2-4 in the States.

Is going to an Aussie school like UQ as bad as going to a Carib school when it comes to match? I know things are getting worse in match for IMG's....would same be true for those who attend UQ?
 

scarletgirl777

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Being the neurotic worrier that I am, I'm trying to make some contingency plans in the event I'm not accepted to US MD when I apply next year.

I've written off Carib schools given the amount of information I've read and heard about. I'm open to DO schools and will be applying to about half. I recently learned about Aussie schools, UQ in particular, and have been intrigued, particularly because they spend years 2-4 in the States.

Is going to an Aussie school like UQ as bad as going to a Carib school when it comes to match? I know things are getting worse in match for IMG's....would same be true for those who attend UQ?
There are certain medical schools in Western countries that are very successful in getting their US citizen graduates into American residencies. However, these schools often have a very specific relationship with a very specific residency program. Unless you are a dual citizen and are going back to your home country, I think it really is best to do everything you can to go to an American med school, including retaking classes for DO grade forgiveness and reapplying if necessary. Now there is a rule coming into place that says that if you do a DO residency you cannot do an MD fellowship, so if you are a DO student there will now just be some extra pressure to try to get into an MD residency. But the bias against DOs is not as big as the bias against IMGs. Ultimately you have to ask, is this one of the standard schools that kids in Australia are trying to go to? (There are many medical schools in Europe with very few Europeans and filled with other foreigners) Why am I trying to go to this foreign school? Is it because it is easier to get into than the average American school? If so, it's probably little different from the Caribbean schools other than arguably being in a superior location :)
 

MrChance2

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A: I studied in Australia during undergrad and it is awesome. They have good schools and it is a blast being there. Queensland is beautiful.
B: UQ is not one of the better Aussie schools
C: All international schools should pretty much be avoided (well maybe not Canada) if possible IMO. I talked with the people at Duke's Singapore program. They have really high USMLEs and are associated w/ Duke so I figured it might be a cool program. Maybe they'd give me a scholarship since I don't think they really have Americans in their program but they are trying to make the program sorta "American" but they said they only send 1-2 people to the USA even though many wanted to go. The people that went had USMLEs of 250+. Thank god they were honest with me because that would have been a doozy of a flight and I'd be terrible at learning Chinese.
D. The more time I spend in medical school the more I see the process of becoming a doctor as more of a "fraternity hazing process" than it should be. I'm still thrilled to be here but it is still definitely politically controlled and even though I'm sure the quality of education at many non American schools is great you definitely need to jump through at least most the right hoops on the way to practicing in the USA.
 

GoPelicans

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Maybe I am very misinformed, but I think SDN overrates how difficult it is for FMG's to get into residency, assuming their step 1 is decent and everything in the application is in order.
 
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WaterPog

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There may be a bit of exageration here about the struggles of IMGs but not much. In my clinical research volunteering gig there are 3 Indian female physicians, a GP, an OB and a surgeon, who have been volunteering there for 3 years now to try to get their feet in the door to any residency they can. The surgeon I know has very solid board scores and comes off as right brilliant but can't even get into an FM residency let alone getting back into surgery.

That being said I think UQ MedEdPath is probably a bit of an exception to that rule because it is tied to Ochsner in New Orleans for 3rd and 4th year which gives them a goodly advantage come residency time. I know they were crowing pretty loudly about a 100% match for their first graduating class last year, and less than half of them ended up at Ochsner for residency.
 

scarletgirl777

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Maybe I am very misinformed, but I think SDN overrates how difficult it is for FMG's to get into residency, assuming their step 1 is decent and everything in the application is in order.
You are very misinformed :) The better your school is, the more residency programs are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and looking at FMG success rates is just an extreme of that example. It's kind of crazy that they need board scores that are so much better in order to get the same consideration. Moreover, even for people who go to good or great schools in their home countries, usually people who go to school in India for example, there is a legitimate concern about cultural differences and retraining someone who has learned a different model of the way you practice medicine. To even have a real chance to come here, the vast majority of FMGs will have to do rotations, NOT observerships, in America, which is extra work and not always possible for everyone. Plus, it is nearly impossible to get into competitive residencies. And not just derm or plastics, even getting into pediatrics for example is a lot more difficult than getting into family medicine for an FMG. Canada is a bit of a different story because many of the schools are LCME accredited, but the vast majority of people trying to come here are not going to be Canadians, they're going to be US citizens who weren't able to get in American schools or foreigners from poorer countries trying to build a better life.
 

notbobtrustme

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Maybe I am very misinformed, but I think SDN overrates how difficult it is for FMG's to get into residency, assuming their step 1 is decent and everything in the application is in order.
Not really no. IMGs match less, take longer to match and match in less desirable residencies/locations. Most US MDs won't touch malignant programs (unless they are very high powered programs) while IMGs will be fighting each over for a chance to train at a malignant program even at a ****ty, run down hospital in podunk Arkansas.
 

xffan624

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Not really no. IMGs match less, take longer to match and match in less desirable residencies/locations. Most US MDs won't touch malignant programs (unless they are very high powered programs) while IMGs will be fighting each over for a chance to train at a malignant program even at a ****ty, run down hospital in podunk Arkansas.
I've heard this term "malignant program" used a lot on this site. What does that mean specifically? I know what the term malignant means, but just wondering how it applies to a residency
 

scarletgirl777

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I've heard this term "malignant program" used a lot on this site. What does that mean specifically? I know what the term malignant means, but just wondering how it applies to a residency
Programs that have a track record of firing residents, are so bad that people quit or transfer, make you violate work hour rules repeatedly, make you spend a lot of time doing things that are not medicine and not educational. Slightly off topic, but to be fired from residency basically means your career is done, so most people will not leave a program without another program lined up unless they are forced to or it's really bad. And to get to that poster's point, people will tolerate a program that is malignant in terms of work hours at a top hospital, but a malignant community program that can't get you a fellowship is another story
 
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alpinism

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I've heard this term "malignant program" used a lot on this site. What does that mean specifically? I know what the term malignant means, but just wondering how it applies to a residency
It can mean many things including but not limited to:

unsupportive hospital administration
attendings that don't teach, cut-corners, or are abusive egomaniacs
residents are overworked and miserable
tons of scut work
poor support staff (PAs, nurses, techs)
 

sazerac

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This is all second had info, but UQ does not seem to be the normal foreign medical school for US students. Their program is specifically designed to get US students back into the USA for residencies. They have a significant tie-in to the Oschner hospital system here in New Orleans, so it isn't like the Caribbean schools where the students struggle to find rotations at random NYC hospitals with all the other foreigners.

The Oschner hospitals here are legitimate - my wife is having our baby at one - and there is a big sign out front that says something about the University of Queensland connection.
 
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edgerock24

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Also, from what I've gathered: students go to the Caribbean because they couldn't get into American schools. This is 100% the reason. PD's will know this. Eventual colleagues will know this as well. It is not a secret. However, if a student chooses to go to UQ (which, by the way is universally ranked higher than most American medical schools), the student could state that he/she chose to go to this school for a more diverse/global experience and to attend a school that really focuses on cutting edge research (something like that).

Also, would PD's look upon UQ IMG grads more favorably than Carib. IMG's, and even maybe some DO graduates, simply because these UQ grads are coming from a well respected/ranked institution, while others are coming from unrespected Caribbean schools or from osteopathic schools?
 

notbobtrustme

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Also, from what I've gathered: students go to the Caribbean because they couldn't get into American schools. This is 100% the reason. PD's will know this. Eventual colleagues will know this as well. It is not a secret. However, if a student chooses to go to UQ (which, by the way is universally ranked higher than most American medical schools), the student could state that he/she chose to go to this school for a more diverse/global experience and to attend a school that really focuses on cutting edge research (something like that).

Also, would PD's look upon UQ IMG grads more favorably than Carib. IMG's, and even maybe some DO graduates, simply because these UQ grads are coming from a well respected/ranked institution, while others are coming from unrespected Caribbean schools or from osteopathic schools?
Maybe, but you would still be shooting yourself in the foot for no reason by going to UQ if you had a USMD acceptance. Any US MD school will give you better opportunities than 99.9% of foreign medical schools. Most PDs don't have time to dig through individual US schools, so expecting them to understand the differences in foreign medical schools is ludicrous.

Bottomline, go US MD/DO if you want to practice in the US.
 

KnuxNole

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I've heard this term "malignant program" used a lot on this site. What does that mean specifically? I know what the term malignant means, but just wondering how it applies to a residency
Basically residencies that you learn ****, do scut, program directors and attendings are not supportive of educating the residents, shadowing rotations. There is a term called "IMG mills" which is basically places where US students steer clear of. These places feed on desperate IMGs trying to match, and not caring about the outcome of the docs they produce. So, just because someone "matches" into a program doesn't mean it's a program that can help them. They could get crappy training where they spend hours drawing blood instead of learning clinical medicine.
 
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Would a residency program that is completely IMG's be considered malignant? I was just checking out BU pathology's current residents, and literally every single one is from a foreign medical school. I'm just surprised to see such a thing at a respected institution like BU.
 

scarletgirl777

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Would a residency program that is completely IMG's be considered malignant? I was just checking out BU pathology's current residents, and literally every single one is from a foreign medical school. I'm just surprised to see such a thing at a respected institution like BU.
It could be malignant. Or it could be a bottom tier program with poor clinical training. Pathology is one of the specialties where there are more residency graduates than new jobs, so the bottom barrel residencies will be filled with people who don't have other options, like FMGs.
 

Perrotfish

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This is all second had info, but UQ does not seem to be the normal foreign medical school for US students. Their program is specifically designed to get US students back into the USA for residencies. They have a significant tie-in to the Oschner hospital system here in New Orleans, so it isn't like the Caribbean schools where the students struggle to find rotations at random NYC hospitals with all the other foreigners.

The Oschner hospitals here are legitimate - my wife is having our baby at one - and there is a big sign out front that says something about the University of Queensland connection.
I went to Tulane and most of our big rotations were split so you would rotate at two different sites, with four total possibilities for where you'd rotate: Tulane vs. University Hospital vs. Lady of the Lake vs. Oschner. I got stuck at Oschner for three separate half-rotations. The 12 weeks I spent at Oschner were basically a black hole in terms of my medical education, the quality of the teaching I encountered was very, very low. I would not recommend UQ or Oschner medical education to anyone.
 
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circulus vitios

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Would a residency program that is completely IMG's be considered malignant? I was just checking out BU pathology's current residents, and literally every single one is from a foreign medical school. I'm just surprised to see such a thing at a respected institution like BU.
Over the past 20 years, pathology has never really been popular with AMGs. As of 2013, there were only 583 ACGME path positions. 263 US MD seniors, 45 US MD non-seniors, and 49 US DO students applied. 46 US IMG, and 158 FMG students applied.