University of Wisconsin (full tuition scholarship) vs Duke (half tuition scholarship)

[Biochemistry2014]

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[oobie]

The big questions are: Where did you fit better? Which school did you have better vibes about? And was the feeling of Duke enough to warrant spending 100k more?

 

[occams_razor]

That full-ride is tough to turn down... I'm gonna borrow this insightful post to illustrate why:



That >$100k extra will be paid back ~3x --> >$300k attending dollars --> >15 months of life. Your $300k saved could be going towards a lot of things: new house, new car, vacations, better living situation for future family, investments, charitable donations, personal emergencies, and so on. God forbid, but if immediately after residency, you decided "I hate medicine," you'd even have the option to change careers.

I do agree with the post above that you should evaluate fit. If you'd be perfectly happy at either place, I'd go with the money. If you see yourself doing better at Duke, another option would be to tactfully ask Duke's finaid office if they'd be willing to match UW-Madison's offer.

As for prestige, I know that sdn'ers argue back and forth about it. There's data that suggests this, and data that suggests that. Anecdotally, I didn't even know where my current PCP went to med school until I looked it up now. He could have gone to Harvard or St. George's, and I couldn't care in the least. All I know is that he's an awesome doctor who listens to my dumb concerns when I'm sick. My point is, I really don't think any doors will be closed to you going to either UW-Madison or Duke, regardless of what US News says. They're both great schools, and your patients won't care anyway.

There is also not such a HUGE difference in ranking between UW Madison and Duke. Duke is 8, UW-Madison is 25. If it were Duke vs a much lower ranked school I think that would be a different story, but UW Madison is still within the top 25

 

[Dr.JD.House]

It's a lot warmer in North Carolina...

 

[Duke1K]

If you want to do radonc, for some reason Duke has a killer radonc match every year. Like it or not, a top 10 school carries a tremendous advantage that tends to be downplayed on SDN. The difference between Duke and UW Madison is not insignificant; if you just want to match at any radonc program, you won't need the advantage that Duke gives you, but if you have your heart set on a few desirable locations/want to go into academic medicine, I'd strongly consider Duke.

 

[7331poas]

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Where your PCP goes isn't the issue. The issue is whether OP wants to match into a top IM program or otherwise, does he need to go to a top school. The answer is a yes.

 

[occams_razor]

Where your PCP goes isn't the issue. The issue is whether OP wants to match into a top IM program or otherwise, does he need to go to a top school. The answer is a yes.

You can absolutely still match into a top IM program if you do well at university of Wisconsin. It's still a top 25 med school... It's not like we are talking about a low ranked or unranked school here.


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[7331poas]

You can absolutely still match into a top IM program if you do well at university of Wisconsin. It's still a top 25 med school... It's not like we are talking about a low ranked or unranked school here.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I am not really going to go too far into a debate here. But its exponentially harder to match those types of programs when you arent in the top 5-10. Just browsing through their residency pages makes it clear.

 

[occams_razor]

I am not really going to go too far into a debate here. But its exponentially harder to match those types of programs when you arent in the top 5-10. Just browsing through their residency pages makes it clear.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever for it being "exponentially harder" to match into a top IM program coming from a school ranked in the top 25 vs top 10?

I do appreciate the value of going to a higher ranked school and the doors that it opens, but I think you are perhaps focusing a bit too much on what US News deems to be in the top 5-10. Do you really think it is exponentially harder to match a competitive IM program coming from UChicago, UMich, Vandy, Cornell, or Mayo? I know for a fact it's not (I've seen recent match lists from these schools). Yet none of them are in the US News top 10. It's irrelevant because these are still top schools and I just don't believe it's such a huge difference coming from the school that US News says is #8 vs the school that US News says is #18.

 

[7331poas]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever for it being "exponentially harder" to match into a top IM program coming from a school ranked in the top 25 vs top 10?

I do appreciate the value of going to a higher ranked school and the doors that it opens, but I think you are perhaps focusing a bit too much on what US News deems to be in the top 5-10. Do you really think it is exponentially harder to match a competitive IM program coming from UChicago, UMich, Vandy, Cornell, or Mayo? I know for a fact it's not (I've seen recent match lists from these schools). Yet none of them are in the US News top 10. It's irrelevant because these are still top schools and I just don't believe it's such a huge difference coming from the school that US News says is #8 vs the school that US News says is #18.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ram-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026/

I think it can certainly be extrapolated that this affect gets much better when you hit the top 15-5

 

[occams_razor]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ram-from-a-non-top-25-medical-school.1073026/

I think it can certainly be extrapolated that this affect gets much better when you hit the top 15-5

That whole thread is about how it's much harder coming from a non-top 25 med school... and no, sorry, but nobody is going to tell someone coming from any of the top schools I mentioned that it will be exponentially harder for them to match into top residency programs. When you are at a top 25 med school, you will have so many opportunities that where you match will have much more to do with you and how well you perform in med school rather than whether USNews puts your school at #9 vs #17. No top 25 school is going to hold you back from a top IM program.

 

[7331poas]

No top 25 school is going to hold you back from a top IM program.

We will just agree to disagree here. Nothing either of us will say will change each other's minds

 

[occams_razor]

We will just agree to disagree here. Nothing either of us will say will change each other's minds

That's fine, however I would appreciate if you could provide any actual evidence for your claim that it is "exponentially harder" to match into a top IM program coming from a school ranked in the top 25 vs top 10. I think it would be valuable to be able to provide evidence when making claims like that.

 

[occams_razor]

Nothing either of us will say will change each other's minds

This is not true. If you would provide any evidence that coming from say Cornell will hold someone back from a top IM program, or make it exponentially harder to match to a top IM program, than if that person had gone to Duke, then I would change my mind. I am completely open to changing my mind when there is evidence that what I believe is false.

 

[Mansamusa]

We will just agree to disagree here. Nothing either of us will say will change each other's minds

I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of non-top med students in top IM residencys (except maybe the non-BI Harvard ones) was higher or equal to the percentage of students at top med schools who didn't come from top undergrad and liberal arts schools. If OP is at the top in Wisconsin, he will do very well in match.

And even so, is having a better chance at matching at a top 5 IM program worth paying $200,000 when you include interest over a school that will set you up very well to get into other strong IM programs? If OP doesn't want to do academics, then prestige of residency matters even less.

Op just has to make a decision as to whether or not he would rather have prestige in his career or have that money to spend onother things.

UW won't prevent OP from matching any specialty, but there is a chance that it can make it hard for him to match tippy top residencies within a specialty. I say take the money and run because the freedom of no debt> prestige to me

 

[Duke1K]

This is not true. If you would provide any evidence that coming from say Cornell will hold someone back from a top IM program, or make it exponentially harder to match to a top IM program, than if that person had gone to Duke, then I would change my mind. I am completely open to changing my mind when there is evidence that what I believe is false.

Match lists are notoriously difficult to interpret and subject to a variety of factors that can't be controlled for. If we look at trends and make a few assumptions, we may be able to glean some (?) useful information. Let's say BWH is the most desirable IM program and least subject to geographic factors. If we make the assumption that there's at least a few students from top schools who want to match at BWH for IM over the past 3 years, we can look at the current residents and see who BWH selects.

43 HMS students matched at BWH over the past 3 years, an obvious outlier. A few schools seem to punch above its weight given its ranking on USNews: Penn (19), Yale (12), Cornell (8), Thomas Jefferson (5); and a few below: Columbia (1), Vanderbilt (1), UCSD (0), Baylor (0), UNC (0), UW Madison (0), +outside the top-25 and within top-40, 7 other schools had zero matches. Overall, top 10 schools solidly match ~2 every year; top 25 ~1/yr. Outside the top 25, there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage (in fact probably disadvantage).

(A cursory comparison of UCSF's match list reveals similar findings; HMS, Penn, Yale still punch above its weight. UCLA does much better. "Underperforming" schools include Vanderbilt (1), UW Madison (0), +Mayo (0), +8 schools outside top-25 and within top-40.)

Looking at the results, there's obviously strong geographic preferences, but it's clear that top 10 or 15 schools are more consistent at matching into big name programs (tend to match someone every year), though all top 25 schools match at around the rate of 1-2/year. Not to hate on Wisconsin, but there's sort of a line where all the schools ranked above Wisconsin seem to do better than the schools below.

 

[ChrisMack390]

OP - do you ultimately want to live in Wisconsin?

 

[Biochemistry2014]

OP - do you ultimately want to live in Wisconsin?

I currently have no preferences when it comes to final living area

 

[ChrisMack390]

I currently have no preferences when it comes to final living area

If I was in your shoes I'd go to Duke then.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I initially voted for Wisconsin, but changed it to Duke. If for whatever reason you decide to take an additional year for research, the price difference may be even less due to Duke's accelerated pre-clinical curriculum.
But hey, you know yourself best OP.

Anyway, congrats!

 

[Ck212]

The zero debt burden is definitely not something to be taken lightly. I would take the money at Wisconsin and run! It's not going to close any doors for you and you'll be able to go into residency and your career debt free, which is huge and you will thank yourself down the line.

 

[occams_razor]

hey OP what did you end up deciding? best of luck with whatever school you chose. you really can't go wrong with such great choices

 

[Biochemistry2014]

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