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Unprofessional residency activities.. Is this normal?
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yikes..
this is hard to answer.
to offer reassurance, yes, sometimes as residents we bond over social gatherings. which can include bars or someone's place for drinking and games. this is especially true during particularly trying rotations, where there's been problems. you need each other to get through and times to hang out and talk about it or release the pressure in other ways.
there is a level of intimacy and trust that you form with the residents you work with. and that you try to maintain.
however in your case. It's hard I think in that he hasn't been always been faithful. that kind of trust once broken, I'm not sure how to address this.
what i can say is that not all residents choose to be social or some will go to gatherings for a couple of hours and go home. you don't have to stay the entire event. others don't make it a regular occurrence. if you're married or married with kids, people understand that. if he's really uncomfortable, he doesn't have to show up for the whole thing or go at all. this is really subjective, but imo, you can prioritize what's most important. and people do that. defeats the purpose of doing well, if your personal life goes down the drain, imo anyway. there's no perfect way to balance things. sometimes you have to make a choice.
he could request that they chat over coffee as a small group.
for tips on prep, sometimes it's intended to be informal and not a formal tutorial.
Edited for grammar
this is hard to answer.
to offer reassurance, yes, sometimes as residents we bond over social gatherings. which can include bars or someone's place for drinking and games. this is especially true during particularly trying rotations, where there's been problems. you need each other to get through and times to hang out and talk about it or release the pressure in other ways.
there is a level of intimacy and trust that you form with the residents you work with. and that you try to maintain.
however in your case. It's hard I think in that he hasn't been always been faithful. that kind of trust once broken, I'm not sure how to address this.
what i can say is that not all residents choose to be social or some will go to gatherings for a couple of hours and go home. you don't have to stay the entire event. others don't make it a regular occurrence. if you're married or married with kids, people understand that. if he's really uncomfortable, he doesn't have to show up for the whole thing or go at all. this is really subjective, but imo, you can prioritize what's most important. and people do that. defeats the purpose of doing well, if your personal life goes down the drain, imo anyway. there's no perfect way to balance things. sometimes you have to make a choice.
he could request that they chat over coffee as a small group.
for tips on prep, sometimes it's intended to be informal and not a formal tutorial.
Edited for grammar
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Man really tough situation
The situation u describe is completely normal between residents.
But of course it does not take away the fsct that you are reasonably concerend.
I cannot offer a solution except thst if you are truly in a healrhy marriage to just tell him your concerns and talk it out.
The situation u describe is completely normal between residents.
But of course it does not take away the fsct that you are reasonably concerend.
I cannot offer a solution except thst if you are truly in a healrhy marriage to just tell him your concerns and talk it out.
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Gosh this one is a little different. I got married during residency and as an intern when we first started dating (and before we met) we spent a night or two a weekend at the bar drinking as a class, but we didn't limit spouses or girlfriends AT ALL. Once we started dating and now that we're married I always invite her and she often tags along - she doesn't always love the conversation as it typically centers around the hospital, but I am happy to have her involved and meet my friends.
You seem to be alluding to a fear that he might be cheating on you, again. Unfortunately, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior - there's that old saying of "once a cheater..." Obviously I have no knowledge of this situation, but him going over to a girl's house (without you) for "tacos and tequila" is clearly uncomfortable and questionable at best. If you feel secure in your relationship, reach out and tell him how you feel - I think it is totally reasonable to be worried. Expect some defensiveness and indignation, but it's important for you two to talk about it.
Also, have a conversation about where you want your relationship to be. My spouse and I had a big sit down about "moving on" from the "heavy drinking staying out until 2 AM" weekends, it just wasn't our thing anymore. Most of my friends followed suit (we are growing up), but some have difficulty letting that part of college and medical school go. Don't worry, as work picks up these weekends should become much more rare depending on the specialty.
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Could he just say, "you know I'd really like to get to know you folks and get helpful tips, but I'm married, could we do this at an earlier time at a restaurant or something?"
I don't know that it has to be a big deal.
As a single female, I'd be like "oh, yeah, sure."
I don't know that it has to be a big deal.
As a single female, I'd be like "oh, yeah, sure."
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Agree with above. My residency is fairly family friendly so maybe that makes it different. But whenever there are any sort of get-togethers spouses are always invited. If I were you I would be uncomfortable with it- but with that being said, I would never forgive my spouse for cheating. So I don't really know the best solution for you here. Good luck.
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Maybe have your husband ask if it's ok for his wife to come along. Maybe you can get to know his coworkers and it'll make u feel more comfortable (or make u even more afraid who knows)
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Hell you could even say, "I'd like my wife to have the opportunity to meet some people, can she come too?"
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Yeah, this seems more of an issue related to your relationship with your husband, rather than his coworkers relationships with each other. Hubby can always find out if you can come along.
People in their late 20s like to hang out in bars/restaurants periodically. They also like to go out together in a social context with their coworkers. It's not unusual and it's not unprofessional.
People in their late 20s like to hang out in bars/restaurants periodically. They also like to go out together in a social context with their coworkers. It's not unusual and it's not unprofessional.
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My first thought was:
1) are you sure spouses aren't invited to at least some of these events? Sometimes it is implicitly understood that SOs are welcome.
2) When it wasn't clear what have they said when your husband asked if you were invited?
These events as described are perfectly normal in residency training especially during the early "getting to know you" phase. They are not unprofessional.
My last thought was:
as a single person I'm not sure it would occur to me to think about spouses when planning social events for residents, especially if there were some orientation going on. OTOH, I would not be opposed to it and certainly if it was the culture of his program or a certain event where spouses commonly came then it would not be a big deal. I'd also venture that his residents colleagues are not thinking there is anything improper about inviting him over without you and that the last thing on their mind is stealing your husband.
At any rate, there are probably a dozen reasons why you haven't been invited but this really says more about your fears than anything nefarious going on. Your husband is going to be surrounded by women all day long; his co-residents are much less likely to be a threat to your marriage than nurses, techs, students and frankly, your insecurities. I've been there so I know what you're going through but as you know, the lack of trust is what kills the relationship.
1) are you sure spouses aren't invited to at least some of these events? Sometimes it is implicitly understood that SOs are welcome.
2) When it wasn't clear what have they said when your husband asked if you were invited?
These events as described are perfectly normal in residency training especially during the early "getting to know you" phase. They are not unprofessional.
My last thought was:
as a single person I'm not sure it would occur to me to think about spouses when planning social events for residents, especially if there were some orientation going on. OTOH, I would not be opposed to it and certainly if it was the culture of his program or a certain event where spouses commonly came then it would not be a big deal. I'd also venture that his residents colleagues are not thinking there is anything improper about inviting him over without you and that the last thing on their mind is stealing your husband.
At any rate, there are probably a dozen reasons why you haven't been invited but this really says more about your fears than anything nefarious going on. Your husband is going to be surrounded by women all day long; his co-residents are much less likely to be a threat to your marriage than nurses, techs, students and frankly, your insecurities. I've been there so I know what you're going through but as you know, the lack of trust is what kills the relationship.
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Have you thought about inviting them to come over for a nice home cooked meal? Make friends with them...or at least let them get to know you as a person instead of just some faceless spouse...hopefully a lot harder to try something with the husband of a person you consider a friend.
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Your concerns are valid. As mentioned earlier, there are certainly other ways to build a collegial environment and learn "helpful information", while prioritizing one's personal relationships.
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I'm the only female in my residency year, and I can't begin to describe what a lonely experience it would be if my husband and I didn't trust one another to spend time with our colleagues socially. FWIW, OP, I've had more than a few late nights at the bar with my male classmates - but at the end of the day, they're my work family, and there's no temptation there. Not saying co-residents don't ever mingle romantically, but spending time with the few people he sees every day seems a little less weird than if he were going over to hang out with a woman you'd never met.
That being said, whenever my class and I get together, there's always the expectation that spouses/SOs/Tinder hookups or whatever are welcome -I'd say it would be seen as odd for spouses to be specifically not invited - but I'm sure it's a boring gathering for some because it's hard to banish the hospital talk. It may be more a case of "your wife would probably be bored by our conversation so I didn't think to ask if she wanted to come" rather than "don't bring your wife to taco night!" I'm assuming that you and your spouse moved together to start his residency - making your own friends and support network will be crucial, for those long nights at work and call.
That being said, whenever my class and I get together, there's always the expectation that spouses/SOs/Tinder hookups or whatever are welcome -I'd say it would be seen as odd for spouses to be specifically not invited - but I'm sure it's a boring gathering for some because it's hard to banish the hospital talk. It may be more a case of "your wife would probably be bored by our conversation so I didn't think to ask if she wanted to come" rather than "don't bring your wife to taco night!" I'm assuming that you and your spouse moved together to start his residency - making your own friends and support network will be crucial, for those long nights at work and call.
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I thought about the idea of including the SO to social things, still going over that one in my head.
I haven't always found that easy to navigate.
As in, when I do hang out with co-residents, we always end up talking shop. and vice versa, if I hang out with my SO on work hang outs. so as a SO/my SO inevitably gets left out of the conversation eventually. No one gets offended, but personally I get bored on outings with my SO's co-workers. As does my SO in gatherings with my workmates. I often choose not to hang out with my SO & friends, because I know they'll have more relaxed conversations that way as well.
We were lucky however, in that eventually I found co-resident friends in a similar situation or time of life. And also, as stated by other commenters - it's very true that if you're not in a relationship, you probably wouldn't think of inviting SOs to things, it just doesn't occur to you in the same way. I'm able to make the point of inviting SOs to things, because I have one too - my SO other is always in the back of my mind. I also know that my SO would want conversations with people who aren't going to talk about 'how my work is going'. I already know my SO is sick to death of hearing me talk about work sometimes , I can't imagine how much more irritating it would be listening to me yammer on about it with co-workers. Hopefully you'll eventually run into similar couples, OP. Because it is fun and more balanced, for lack of a better word.
That aside, as admiralchz mentioned above, laying down ground rules helps if it's really bothering you - with regards to how late to stay out or how frequently the late nights are. Or how much is drunk. I agree that nights out are less frequent the busier you are in residency. although, it can depend on the program or what's going on in the rotation itself.
This has been my experience more and more, now that i think of it.
Good luck, OP!
I haven't always found that easy to navigate.
As in, when I do hang out with co-residents, we always end up talking shop. and vice versa, if I hang out with my SO on work hang outs. so as a SO/my SO inevitably gets left out of the conversation eventually. No one gets offended, but personally I get bored on outings with my SO's co-workers. As does my SO in gatherings with my workmates. I often choose not to hang out with my SO & friends, because I know they'll have more relaxed conversations that way as well.
We were lucky however, in that eventually I found co-resident friends in a similar situation or time of life. And also, as stated by other commenters - it's very true that if you're not in a relationship, you probably wouldn't think of inviting SOs to things, it just doesn't occur to you in the same way. I'm able to make the point of inviting SOs to things, because I have one too - my SO other is always in the back of my mind. I also know that my SO would want conversations with people who aren't going to talk about 'how my work is going'. I already know my SO is sick to death of hearing me talk about work sometimes , I can't imagine how much more irritating it would be listening to me yammer on about it with co-workers. Hopefully you'll eventually run into similar couples, OP. Because it is fun and more balanced, for lack of a better word.
That aside, as admiralchz mentioned above, laying down ground rules helps if it's really bothering you - with regards to how late to stay out or how frequently the late nights are. Or how much is drunk. I agree that nights out are less frequent the busier you are in residency. although, it can depend on the program or what's going on in the rotation itself.
This has been my experience more and more, now that i think of it.
Good luck, OP!
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Is now the time to talk about call and call rooms? I agree with the "invite them over for a home cooked meal" or make some tasty treats for hubby to take to work. Think about throwing little parties every now and then. This may sound wrong but make your place THE place to hang out -- get them to feel comfortable dropping by for a beer or whatever.
I'm just going off of what my Mom used to do when Dad was in the service -- she'd frequently cook pans of enchiladas and send them to work or invite the crew over for all you can eat tacos or spaghetti -- always had a ready supply of beer and bourbon --- it helped with unit cohesion and made the temptation to hit the Airman's/NCO club for happy hour a lot less likely.
I'm just going off of what my Mom used to do when Dad was in the service -- she'd frequently cook pans of enchiladas and send them to work or invite the crew over for all you can eat tacos or spaghetti -- always had a ready supply of beer and bourbon --- it helped with unit cohesion and made the temptation to hit the Airman's/NCO club for happy hour a lot less likely.
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Residency isn't a walk in the park. As such, groups of closely working residents can/do develop a bond of sorts. It's completely normal for co-workers to hang out after work. And the process of talking shop on a semi-regular basis can be cathartic for many people. OTOH, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to come along. In my class we have several significant others who are not in medicine and they get invited to all our events.
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This isn't the senior residents fault. They are welcoming him into their group during their off time. The problem here is that your boyfriend cheated and then you married him despite not trusting him.
i agree with this comment 100%
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Maybe regular interactions for the single residents in the place, but I'd argue not completely appropriate interactions for a married guy, especially one with his prior history. It's not just that she doesn't trust him, but that he is also not acting in a trustworthy manner.
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OP deleted the original post (which was quoted by me so it's not really gone...) so I guess she got her answer or didn't like the discussion going forward.
Some good viewpoints on both sides on this unique topic, great all around.
Some good viewpoints on both sides on this unique topic, great all around.
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Could also be that spouses are getting invited but he isn't sharing that info because he is having fun without her. Or that he isn't even bothering to ask if she can come because he likes hanging out without her. Also, entirely possible "tacos and tequila" is a euphemism.
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As long as it's not netflix and chill...
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My thoughts exactly.
Kinda sad to watch a relationship come to an end in (almost) real-time like this.
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How about Journal and chill, the residency equivalent? Or oral board prep with progressively less clothes?
Deleted the original post because I got a little worried afterwards that I included enough details someone in the program could read it, know who it was about, and things become even weirder.
But I appreciate everyone's opinions and insight. Thanks a lot.
But I appreciate everyone's opinions and insight. Thanks a lot.
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grapefruit17
I also think its sketchy. Most if not all of our resident functions, spouses were allowed and no one made a big deal about bring your SO. I get bonding with your coworkers, but I don't understand how having your SO there interferes with that.
the fact that he cheated before and it doesn't seem like he's making effort to include you, seems poorly done on his part. Granted I'm not a marriage counselor, this is only my two cents.
it could be totally nothing. but he should at least make more of an effort to clarify that.
Sorry OP, seems very stressful.
the fact that he cheated before and it doesn't seem like he's making effort to include you, seems poorly done on his part. Granted I'm not a marriage counselor, this is only my two cents.
it could be totally nothing. but he should at least make more of an effort to clarify that.
Sorry OP, seems very stressful.
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I think we need to be careful about calling these activities "sketchy".
1) we don't know if she actually wasn't invited or if she was and her spouse is hiding it from her
2) not all programs are family friendly
3) it's early; even in family friendly programs first week activities may be more about bonding between the residents and doing some work/orientation and therefore maybe felt that partners don't need to necessarily come
4) those of you who are married or have long-term partners may forget what it's like to be truly single.
Single people don't always think about inviting SO to work related events or understand the bond that married couples have,wanting or needing to spend time together. I would surmise that these single female residents are probably more independent than the average non physician woman and are probably not understanding the physical closeness some/many couples want (i.e. being together all the time). I remember when I first got into practice and would see married physicians bringing their nonmedical spouses to industry dinners and conferences. I thought it was odd and wondered if it was just about getting them a free meal.
After a significant time of observation and talking with my friends, I came to realize it was because they had so little time with their partner outside of work that they tried to maximize it where they could.
The problem is not these residents or even that her husband is acting sketchy (we don't have any evidence that she was invited and he pretended that she wasn't), The problem is that she hasn't truly gotten over what happened and still doesn't trust him.
1) we don't know if she actually wasn't invited or if she was and her spouse is hiding it from her
2) not all programs are family friendly
3) it's early; even in family friendly programs first week activities may be more about bonding between the residents and doing some work/orientation and therefore maybe felt that partners don't need to necessarily come
4) those of you who are married or have long-term partners may forget what it's like to be truly single.
Single people don't always think about inviting SO to work related events or understand the bond that married couples have,wanting or needing to spend time together. I would surmise that these single female residents are probably more independent than the average non physician woman and are probably not understanding the physical closeness some/many couples want (i.e. being together all the time). I remember when I first got into practice and would see married physicians bringing their nonmedical spouses to industry dinners and conferences. I thought it was odd and wondered if it was just about getting them a free meal.
After a significant time of observation and talking with my friends, I came to realize it was because they had so little time with their partner outside of work that they tried to maximize it where they could.
The problem is not these residents or even that her husband is acting sketchy (we don't have any evidence that she was invited and he pretended that she wasn't), The problem is that she hasn't truly gotten over what happened and still doesn't trust him.
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grapefruit17
nope, WS. I do not forget the early medical school todays of opening up tinder, hitting like several times and going on multiple random dates that would range from very bad/strange to epic.
But it is kind of a lesson, and I don't mean to make an example out of you OP, not my intention. Lesson being, without 100% trust its better to wait on marriage. Marriage is tough, and stressful. Takes effort, esp during residency.
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I'm not sure how that's relevant to my post.
The presumption being made was that these female residents are somehow excluding his wife for nefarious purposes.
While that certainly could be the situation, my comment was meant to convey the fact was that when you're single you sometimes don't think about including spouses for work related events.
I'm not sure what that has to do with Tinder or going on dates.
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grapefruit17
It was a joke..and no I didn't say the residents were nefarious. I don't think the residents are to blame for any of it.
I just thought it was odd the husband didn't make more of an effort to include his wife on events.
I respect your opinions on this, but honestly I have to disagree. While the husbands past cheating is the root cause of suspicion, it's still not unrealistic to wander more if anything is going on.
But suspicion and distrust are never healthy. Maybe you could have a discussion with your husband. Regardless I hope you're able to work it out, op. It sounds like you both have significant time invested in each other.
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I'm sorry but I disagree to some degree with this. While I certainly don't blame the residents or program in any of this, I do think the husband has some work to do in rebuilding trust and part of this is avoiding certain situations or even the appearance of infidelity at this stage. Trust has to rebuilded here lays on both his and her shoulders.
Again, I don't blame the residents, but for him to go over to a female colleague's house for drinks certainly sends off warning signs. If he doesn't want to stay in the marriage then that's a different story, but if he does then I don't think this is appropriate behavior.
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Obviously I'm not expressing myself clearly.
I never said that her husband wasn't to blame or didn't have a part to play in making her feel better. I'm simply responding to the comment that having residency get-togethers in a bar or at someone else's house is sketchy.
If you'll recall, the original post wasn't asking whether her husband's behavior was inappropriate or unprofessional but whether the female residents were. So if anything she's complaining about their behavior not his. Or at least that was my interpretation of it.
I think we're having different conversations: you and other posters are focusing on her husband's behavior and I'm focusing on her questioning the female residents behavior.
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Being a married guy and in a program that is overwhelming female, I understand where you and your husband are coming from. The actual events/activities that you are describing don't seem strange at all to me from a new resident perspective.
Fortunately for me, I'm in a family friendly program where most people have SOs, but I still get invited to events where the single residents don't explicitly state or even think about SOs. If I didn't outright ask, I would never know if its appropriate. It almost always is perfectly fine. Your husband should ask if you can come. Chances are, you can and he just doesn't know.
The activities you described are normal, but your husband should just ask if you can come. Most of the time single people wouldn't even think to mention SOs whether they were welcome or not. They'd probably be fine with you there. I also agree that it might be in your best interest to become friends with your husband's coresidents because its helpful for your own peace of mind and it will probably help in knowing what your husband is going through. Good luck.
^ Best post in this thread in my opinion.
In short, these activities are normal in residency, especially in the beginning. Some programs simply aren't family friendly, but even more likely is that some single people just don't think about SOs. The husband should ask if OP can come (she probably can go to any of the less formal activities), and the two of them should improve communication with each other, which unfortunately will be hard during residency, but now's the time to do it. Also recommend marriage counseling to improve trust before something worse happens.
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I agree the going out to bars thing is completely fine. It was hard to determine if the tacos and tequila invite was a one on one thing it not. It may be fine even as a one on one thing but is a bit strange which is why I wondered whether it could be a euphemism (still wouldn't be the fault of the female as I haven't seen any evidence the guy has made it clear he even is married, but even if he did any cheating falls squarely on the cheater's shoulders not anyone he possibly cheats with).
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Unless these single residents are straight out of high school, have never had a significant relationship, or hang out with college kids I don't think it's unrealistic to think that they know the social niceties of inviting a spouse or an SO to a social gathering...
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The tacos and tequila thing wasn't one on one. It was an invite from a resident to him and the other intern starting on the same service. Sounds like its something for the 2 interns to get an intro to the service from the resident on it.
Also, chances are people know he's married unless he's actively trying to hide it. You'd have to go out of your way to hide something like that (i.e. not wear a wedding ring, not mention it when you are undoubtedly asked about your family a million times during orientation/the start of residency, not mention it when you are asked about moving, etc. etc.). Even if they knew, it doesn't mean they'd think to explicitly invite OP though.
As far as who is to blame, obviously the cheater is far more to blame than anyone else involved, but its still messed up (and in general stupid from a purely amoral perspective) for someone to sleep with someone else while knowing they're married.
You'd be surprised.
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Have you met other physicians?
I've never met a bigger group of social misfits in my life. I would not be the least surprised if they were clueless about social niceties.
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Ok, I looked back and it mentions it wasn't one on one so therefore it falls back into the normal spectrum of activity.
As for the being married thing, I just didn't want to discount the possibility that he is hiding it for whatever reason.
The blame thing I just mention because too many people get all pissed off at the "homewrecker" and consider their cheating spouse a victim of the seductress.
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Gotcha and I agree.
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My residency was very family friendly but none of the non-medical SOs liked to go to events unless there were other nonmedical SOs to socialize with. So in this case with the other two people there are going to be single the OP wouldn't have been invited. I think it is completely normal for the resident who set this up to think it was going to be a work focused but friendly event that a lone SO would be bored out of their mind to be present at and wouldn't want to be there.
And for the people who have suggested that the husband should have asked if his wife could come along, I can see that as being incredibly awkward and interpreted as rude. He would basically be saying would you mind hosting 50% more people and making more food. It is possible he hasn't even met this resident in person before the invite was offered. At the same time I can see how the OP is worried. Unfortunately the husband's previous actions have made this completely normal interaction look sketchy without anybody doing anything abnormal.
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I don't think anyone meant for him to ask if his wife could come the the person's house, but the OP makes it sound like there has been a ton of get togethers, many at bars, so a simple "hey, is it just us or are SOs invited" somewhere along the line would have been perfectly appropriate. Or even just a "sorry, I promised the wife I would hang with her tonight" which might have been followed by a "just bring her along". Not every time (lord knows my husband actually preferred when I went to this stuff without him, just like I was more than happy to let him go out with his nursing school friends without me most of the time), but it just seems weird that none included SOs (unless absolutely every other resident is currently without anyone special in their life)
G
grapefruit17
I agree this is the biggest problem. No matter how benign or suspicious the activity is, it'll be amplified in terms of "sketchiness" by 10x due to his past. Consciously we all try not to judge based on past mistakes, but subconsciously its impossible not to sometimes.
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Then it must be the southern in me...had social gatherings at my house as a resident and always invited SOs...though o was at a program that had a lot of married residents...heck my 3rd year med students were married with kids....Have you met other physicians?
I've never met a bigger group of social misfits in my life. I would not be the least surprised if they were clueless about social niceties.
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There is a difference between non medical SOs not wanting to come... meaning they were invited and chose not to go and not being invited in the 1st place.
And sorry "tequila and tacos" does not sound that innocent or work related...
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Sounds fun as hell if you ask me.
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Agreed. If a program has a high contingent of married residents and students, then spouses are more likely to be thought of and included. It sounds as if the OP's husband is not in one of those programs.
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I think I may steal that for a party idea.
