Unsuccessful MD/DO applicant who chose podiatry school... AMA

[WGSgrad]

Since someone else already resuscitated it...I want to say how impressed I am with the maturity of the podiatry students responding in this thread, particularly the OP. I am going to put my best application together and apply once to MD/DO and I hope that if that is not enough that I will demonstrate the maturity the three of you have and walk away or do something else.

As an aside...my older cousin is a podiatrist in a somewhat rural area. My father recently told me she is thinking about going to school to become an NP (I assume to expand her scope of work)...which was a shock to me because my whole life everyone in my family seemed to imply she went to medical school and my father was most adamant she had an MD. In fact, when I told him she must have a DPM and not an MD because there would be no point in getting an NP if she had an MD he vehemently stated that I was wrong and that she had an MD. My cousin and I are the first generation to go to college so there is a chance she did explain the difference to my family and they just misunderstood.


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[Weirdy]

Would you recommend podiatry school for those who have both a low MCAT and GPA? Also, it is required to obtain an LOR from a podiatrist?

Required rec letter.

Scholl is the only program that will not start looking at your app until you have all letters in.

Shadow first. Your grades do not matter if you cannot see yourself doing it forever.

 

[KnowledgeBot4000]

Would you recommend podiatry school for those who have both a low MCAT and GPA? Also, it is required to obtain an LOR from a podiatrist?

No.

But I also wouldn't recommend attempting to become a physician in any capacity with a low MCAT/GPA. Too many MD/DO students get stressed and unsatisfied with tons of debt and can't match into what they want and struggle in clinic. In podiatry, the students with low MCAT and GPA frequently flunk out. I also think podiatry is a great profession to pursue if you like it even if you have a GPA/MCAT that can get you into a MD school (assuming you can keep your debt relatively low, which gets easier when you want pod and have a higher GPA/MCAT as that gives you options), but it's a bad idea to pursue podiatry as a "back up" unless you really want to do it.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

No.

But I also wouldn't recommend attempting to become a physician in any capacity with a low MCAT/GPA. Too many MD/DO students get stressed and unsatisfied with tons of debt and can't match into what they want and struggle in clinic. In podiatry, the students with low MCAT and GPA frequently flunk out. I also think podiatry is a great profession to pursue if you like it even if you have a GPA/MCAT that can get you into a MD school (assuming you can keep your debt relatively low, which gets easier when you want pod and have a higher GPA/MCAT as that gives you options), but it's a bad idea to pursue podiatry as a "back up" unless you really want to do it.

Agreed. I have a few friends in podiatry and while the salary is good and the job fulfilling, because of the much lower admission standards there's a very high attrition rate in most podiatry schools. If you're a student who has considerable issues with test-taking, going into a field where advancement is predicated on passing multiple difficult board exams testing a broad range of knowledge is a very bad idea.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Agreed. I have a few friends in podiatry and while the salary is good and the job fulfilling, because of the much lower admission standards there's a very high attrition rate in most podiatry schools. If you're a student who has considerable issues with test-taking, going into a field where advancement is predicated on passing multiple difficult board exams testing a broad range of knowledge is a very bad idea.

The MD attrition rate is only like 1-2% lower, so...

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[ortnakas]

There are podiatry residents at my rotation site, and the vast majority of them are great. I personally wouldn't do podiatry because feet ewww, but I think it's a really solid option premeds should consider. Especially as a backup for the ortho-or-bust crowd; not all of them are going to be fulfilled if they end up in medicine instead of surgery, so it would make sense to at least think about if they might be more fulfilled as a surgical podiatrist even if it's just lower extremities.

 

[TXMED_1695]

I do not understand how this is a solid option. It's four years of school (average 200k), and the average income for a podiatrist is $115k. From my understanding, the job market for podiatrists is thinning out. PA, NPA - both require less school, and are cheaper but they are all on the same pay grade. (My information is based off of the opinion of one podiatrist though)

 

[bobtheweazel]

I do not understand how this is a solid option. It's four years of school (average 200k), and the average income for a podiatrist is $115k. From my understanding, the job market for podiatrists is thinning out. PA, NPA - both require less school, and are cheaper but they are all on the same pay grade. (My information is based off of the opinion of one podiatrist though)

Average salary surveys for podiatrists range from about 185K up to about 270K depending on who's being surveyed (practice owners, new pods, old pods, more surgical pods). Out of all the surveys I've seen I've never seen 115K so I don't know where that number came from.

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[TimmyTurner]

even if it's just lower extremities.

I think this is the sentiment that holds us back the most. It's just the foot right? How hard could it be?

I'm not going to make the case that it's any harder than one or more medical specialties. What I will say- it may be one section of the human anatomy, but we cover all systems. The same cannot be said for some MD/DO specialties.
How well can your dermatologist read your CT scan?
Can your psychiatrist tell if your blood results are cause for concern?

A well trained Podiatrist can address every single issue or concern you have from the Tibial condyles downward.

 

[TimmyTurner]

I do not understand how this is a solid option. It's four years of school (average 200k), and the average income for a podiatrist is $115k. From my understanding, the job market for podiatrists is thinning out. PA, NPA - both require less school, and are cheaper but they are all on the same pay grade. (My information is based off of the opinion of one podiatrist though)

1) not on the same pay grade. Maybe initially but DPM has an almost limitless earning ceiling.
2) Where is the job market thinning out? In the area of the US without Diabetics and elderly?

 

[TXMED_1695]

Average salary surveys for podiatrists range from about 185K up to about 270K depending on who's being surveyed (practice owners, new pods, old pods, more surgical pods). Out of all the surveys I've seen I've never seen 115K so I don't know where that number came from.

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[bobtheweazel]

View attachment 216790

What is the source of that?

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[TXMED_1695]

Every other google source has their mean between $115k-$130k.

What is the source of that?

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[TXMED_1695]

Also, the US labor department has them in that range too.

What is the source of that?

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[Lexdiamondz]

The MD attrition rate is only like 1-2% lower, so...

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Idk man, from what I've heard from people at Temple and NYCPM the attrition rate is something like 10-15%, plus prior threads on the topic on SDN have said similar things - which is unheard of for an MD school.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Also, the US labor department has them in that range too.

Also, neither of those is 115K. But I'll get you some surveys in a bit.

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[TXMED_1695]

Podiatrist’s salary (also know as a doctor of podiatric medicine salary) in the United States is around more than $100,000 per annum. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean podiatrist salary has been around $131,730 per annum while an average hourly wage has been about 63.33 per hour. However, the lowest paid podiatrist’s received an annual salary and hourly wage of about $48,770 $23.45 per hour.

Also, neither of those is 115K. But I'll get you some surveys in a bit.

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[GypsyHummus]

Podiatrist’s salary (also know as a doctor of podiatric medicine salary) in the United States is around more than $100,000 per annum. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean podiatrist salary has been around $131,730 per annum while an average hourly wage has been about 63.33 per hour. However, the lowest paid podiatrist’s received an annual salary and hourly wage of about $48,770 $23.45 per hour.

That also takes into account ALL podiatrists, including podiatry residents. There are far fewer attending pods to residents compared to MD/DO proportion wise.

Typical growth of pod salary usually starts at the 120k mark and goes up to 250k after ten years.

 

[bobtheweazel]

That also takes into account ALL podiatrists, including podiatry residents. There are far fewer attending pods to residents compared to MD/DO proportion wise.

Typical growth of pod salary usually starts at the 120k mark and goes up to 250k after ten years.

I wouldn't say ALL podiatrists since it's a mailed survey and we don't know who they mail them to and people certainly don't have to respond. But yes, there is speculation that residents are included in those numbers.

 

[SnozzBerry]

That also takes into account ALL podiatrists, including podiatry residents. There are far fewer attending pods to residents compared to MD/DO proportion wise.

Typical growth of pod salary usually starts at the 120k mark and goes up to 250k after ten years.

It is crazy to see how low the stats are for podiatry admission and then see that their average salaries are in the $200k range. I feel like there are so many people trying to get into MD/DO, PA, NP, CRNA, optometry, dental, pharmacy etc. and some are still taking several years to get in. Is podiatry that big of a secret that these type of students wouldn't look into podiatry? Seems pretty legit-- pretty easy to get into stats wise with an attrition rate similar to medical school (mentioned above) but end up making a good chunk of change or at least on par with primary care physicians ish. Better keep the secret to yourselves ha!

 

[bobtheweazel]

Idk man, from what I've heard from people at Temple and NYCPM the attrition rate is something like 10-15%, plus prior threads on the topic on SDN have said similar things - which is unheard of for an MD school.

We're talking about 80.0% vs 82.5% in regards to 4 year graduation rates.

2013-2015 Average 4 Year Graduation Rates
DMU-CPMS: 87.0%
CSPM: 86.0%
TUSPM: 85.7%
AZPod: 84.0%
SCPM: 84.0%
AVERAGE: 80.0% (80.4%)*
BUSPM: 80.0%
KSUCPM: 77.0%
NYCPM: 74.0%
WUCPM: 66.0%

*Average weighted using class size (average unweighted)

For comparison, the MD 4 year graduation rate has been hovering around 83% for about 20 years now—most recent stat on reference below was 82.5%.

MD Graduation Rate reference:
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Most of the other references should be somewhere on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/podiatric-college-appeal-index.1162298/

 

[TXMED_1695]

Because most people trust the Labor departments data, and know the mean is not anywhere near $200k.

It is crazy to see how low the stats are for podiatry admission and then see that their average salaries are in the $200k range. I feel like there are so many people trying to get into MD/DO, PA, NP, CRNA, optometry, dental, pharmacy etc. and some are still taking several years to get in. Is podiatry that big of a secret that these type of students wouldn't look into podiatry? Seems pretty legit-- pretty easy to get into stats wise with an attrition rate similar to medical school (mentioned above) but end up making a good chunk of change or at least on par with primary care physicians ish. Better keep the secret to yourselves ha!

 

[bobtheweazel]

Podiatrist’s salary (also know as a doctor of podiatric medicine salary) in the United States is around more than $100,000 per annum. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean podiatrist salary has been around $131,730 per annum while an average hourly wage has been about 63.33 per hour. However, the lowest paid podiatrist’s received an annual salary and hourly wage of about $48,770 $23.45 per hour.

I believe that BLS is a flawed survey, and that is entirely directed at them and not at you.

BLS puts podiatrists at a mean of $136,180 and a median of $119,340.

BLS also puts "physicians and surgeons" at a mean of $197,700 and a median of $187,200.

BLS then goes on to quote the 2014 MGMA survey with median ranges by specialty from $221,419 (family medicine) up to $443,859 (anesthesiology). So if family medicine is the lowest paid specialty and they make $221,419 median, then how is BLS getting $187,200 as the median salary for ALL physicians and surgeons? BLS is a joke.

Would you not agree that the MGMA survey seems more along the lines of reality? A little over $200,000 for family medicine and over $400,000 for anesthesiology?

If so, then i'm attaching MGMA 2010 survey data which shows:
General Podiatrist
Median - $196,180
Mean - $216,611
Surgical Podiatrist
Median - $278,286
Mean - $287,449


Podiatrists

Physicians and Surgeons, All Other

Physicians and Surgeons : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

[Lexdiamondz]

We're talking about 80.0% vs 82.5% in regards to 4 year graduation rates.

2013-2015 Average 4 Year Graduation Rates
DMU-CPMS: 87.0%
CSPM: 86.0%
TUSPM: 85.7%
AZPod: 84.0%
SCPM: 84.0%
AVERAGE: 80.0% (80.4%)*
BUSPM: 80.0%
KSUCPM: 77.0%
NYCPM: 74.0%
WUCPM: 66.0%

*Average weighted using class size (average unweighted)

For comparison, the MD 4 year graduation rate has been hovering around 83% for about 20 years now—most recent stat on reference below was 82.5%.

MD Graduation Rate reference:
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Most of the other references should be somewhere on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/podiatric-college-appeal-index.1162298/

4 year graduation rate is a useless metric when you consider how many MD students take research years and dual degrees - my school has a 60% 4 year graduation rate and we're a top 10 school haha

What's the 5 year graduation rate for Podiatry? That's a much more useful metric to compare

 

[GypsyHummus]

It is crazy to see how low the stats are for podiatry admission and then see that their average salaries are in the $200k range. I feel like there are so many people trying to get into MD/DO, PA, NP, CRNA, optometry, dental, pharmacy etc. and some are still taking several years to get in. Is podiatry that big of a secret that these type of students wouldn't look into podiatry? Seems pretty legit-- pretty easy to get into stats wise with an attrition rate similar to medical school (mentioned above) but end up making a good chunk of change or at least on par with primary care physicians ish. Better keep the secret to yourselves ha!

While it's a really sweet lifestyle and the money is wonderful there are some negatives to the profession, just like with every profession.

Some thoughts that keep people away.

For one, we are not MDs. Plain and simple, there will be people who look down on us. But that is fine. The same can be said for DOs as well, but they are doing steps to reach parity. We are considered "inferior" to a good minority of the medical profession. Outside of people in medicine, we are physicians and surgeons to the general public and are held in a very high regard.

2nd, the foot and ankle is considered "gross eww" by many people. That's fine too. I'm sure colon docs aren't enamored with butt holes.

3rd there are fewer programs. This leads to people not knowing about the profession. This part I am totally fine with, as less people entering the profession is better I feel like. there was a residency shortage about three years ago, to which you can still see the echoes of today.

It's an extremely limited scope of practice. Want to do family Med? Well, all we got are diabetic feet and chronic conditions. Want to be a heart surgeon? Sorry vascular cardio is gonna take that lack of perfusion to the feet case. Want to remove callouses and corns? Well, NPs and PAs can do that, and at a lower cost. And there is of course the tale as old as time "orthopods vs pods" debate.

The very smart thing podiatrists did was fight and retain surgical rights. This keeps us from becoming midlevel providers and launches us into the "doctor vs physician" debate that is currently being held in congress.

 

[bobtheweazel]

4 year graduation rate is a useless metric when you consider how many MD students take research years and dual degrees - my school has a 60% 4 year graduation rate and we're a top 10 school haha

What's the 5 year graduation rate for Podiatry? That's a much more useful metric to compare

I'm not gonna look them all up individually, you can if you Google search CPME outcomes for each podiatry school.

I did just look it up for Temple, since you mentioned it earlier and their 6 year graduation rate is 92.7% (that's all they have posted) whereas the 5 year MD graduation rate was 94.1%. But the podiatry schools aren't required to provide anything other than a 4 year graduation rate, so I'm not sure how much else you'll find. Also, that AAMC data only had 4, 5, and 8 year graduation rates so I'm not even sure we can directly compare them to the Temple 6 year graduation rate.

The point here is that it's all comparable, within a couple of percentage points.

 

[TXMED_1695]

My pre-Med Adivser always gave out bad information too. I think the lesson here is to always remain unbiased, do really good DD, and do not make up your own interpretation of data.

 

[Weirdy]

I do not understand how this is a solid option. It's four years of school (average 200k), and the average income for a podiatrist is $115k. From my understanding, the job market for podiatrists is thinning out. PA, NPA - both require less school, and are cheaper but they are all on the same pay grade. (My information is based off of the opinion of one podiatrist though)

I've had multiple podiatrists tell me to go NPA/PA/Dental/DO instead of DPM at my age. I am 24. I am also from Texas.

They quote the amount of debt versus return and diminishing reimbursement as biggest reason for telling me so. At the same time- go take a look at the DPM residents thread on business tips and salary negotiation.

Debt, regardless of what profession you choose, will still be there. Some may be lower than others but the ceiling for NPA/PA is lower than ceiling for DPM.
If your biggest priority in life is to make the maximum return versus years of training- by all means do it.

We are not trying to say podiatry is the shining exception among professions of those who could not get into an MD/DO program. If that's the bone you want to pick right now then I'll say it- there are multiple specialties within MD/DO who will make more than us with equivalent or less debt. There are multiple professions who will make more than us at an earlier stage with less years of training.
But your decision to pursue podiatry school should not rely solely on numbers, as I'm guessing your primary decision to pursue medical school is not to make money. No one goes to medical school to become rich. Those who do wash out.

It is possible to make a comfortable living while paying off your loans doing podiatry.

 

[Psai]

I've seen this exact question come up a lot in the past on SDN. I'll put in my two cents here.

I probably say medical school half the time and podiatry school half the time, depending on who I'm speaking with and what the situation is. In a social situation, where I'm meeting new people, medical school sums it up concisely. It tells them I'm a student, what I study (medicine), that I'll be at it for many years, that I'm in debt, that I'll eventually be some kind of doctor, etc. If I say podiatry school, it's hit or miss. Of course, either way if they ask for more explanation I give it. But often times it's small talk and saying medical school is just easier, I don't need to go into the history of podiatry and how the field has evolved and the scope of practice and blah blah blah everytime I meet someone. That would be ridiculous. On the other hand, if I know I'm talking to someone in healthcare then I'll say either podiatry school or medical school, whatever rolls off the tongue. I don't really have a preference. I assume there are people in podiatry schools who 100% of the time say medical school and work extra hard to try to validate themselves, but...meh.

Also, I should point out that at Temple the administration and professors call it medical school as often as (if not more often than) they call it podiatry school. If the professors are trying to differentiate between the two (like their different office hours at the different campuses) then they'll call the MD school the medical school and us the podiatry school, but in general I hear podiatry school and medical school used very interchangeably at our school. There's also tons of "physician" thrown around which I know is gonna rustle some pre-MD jimmies, but I suppose it's all consistent with the APMA, CPME, AACPM, et cetera moving forward with branding podiatrists as physicians. And indeed in 23 states podiatrists are legally "podiatric physicians", in 7 states they are "physicians who practice podiatric medicine", and in 5 states they are either "physicians of the foot and leg" or "physicians of the foot and ankle".

I mean, where does a physician go to school? Medical school. So really either "podiatry school" or "medical school" or "podiatric medical school" (nobody's saying that last one) are fair game as far as I'm concerned. As long as you're well informed on it all and your intentions aren't to mislead people, then you do you.

Bro you're a podiatry student at podiatry school. Saying you're in medical school and calling yourself a physician is you trying to be something you're not. Everyone puts on a white coat and everyone thinks they're a doctor and now everyone thinks they're a physician too lol

 

[bobtheweazel]

Bro you're a podiatry student at podiatry school. Saying you're in medical school and calling yourself a physician is you trying to be something you're not. Everyone puts on a white coat and everyone thinks they're a doctor and now everyone thinks they're a physician too lol

Cool story bro

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[GypsyHummus]

Bro you're a podiatry student at podiatry school. Saying you're in medical school and calling yourself a physician is you trying to be something you're not. Everyone puts on a white coat and everyone thinks they're a doctor and now everyone thinks they're a physician too lol

And what about the pods that take the exact same classes with the DOs for the first two years?

 

[bobtheweazel]

And what about the pods that take the exact same classes with the DOs for the first two years?

I wouldn't recommend engaging with Psai. Trust me, their mind is made up.

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[TXMED_1695]

I am not saying anything demeaning about the field. I am just pointing out a discrepancy in the information that was posted. According to numerous sources, in order to make over 200k in podiatry, it takes along time to reach that level of pay. A lot of people just browse these forums and never post (I read more than I post), 100,000 mean difference is a big discrepancy.

I've had multiple podiatrists tell me to go NPA/PA/Dental/DO instead of DPM at my age. I am 24. I am also from Texas.

They quote the amount of debt versus return and diminishing reimbursement as biggest reason for telling me so. At the same time- go take a look at the DPM residents thread on business tips and salary negotiation.

Debt, regardless of what profession you choose, will still be there. Some may be lower than others but the ceiling for NPA/PA is lower than ceiling for DPM.
If your biggest priority in life is to make the maximum return versus years of training- by all means do it.

We are not trying to say podiatry is the shining exception among professions of those who could not get into an MD/DO program. If that's the bone you want to pick right now then I'll say it- there are multiple specialties within MD/DO who will make more than us with equivalent or less debt. There are multiple professions who will make more than us at an earlier stage with less years of training.
But your decision to pursue podiatry school should not rely solely on numbers, as I'm guessing your primary decision to pursue medical school is not to make money. No one goes to medical school to become rich. Those who do wash out.

It is possible to make a comfortable living while paying off your loans doing podiatry.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I'm not gonna look them all up individually, you can if you Google search CPME outcomes for each podiatry school.

I did just look it up for Temple, since you mentioned it earlier and their 6 year graduation rate is 92.7% (that's all they have posted) whereas the 5 year MD graduation rate was 94.1%. But the podiatry schools aren't required to provide anything other than a 4 year graduation rate, so I'm not sure how much else you'll find. Also, that AAMC data only had 4, 5, and 8 year graduation rates so I'm not even sure we can directly compare them to the Temple 6 year graduation rate.

The point here is that it's all comparable, within a couple of percentage points.

The point you're missing though is that there may well be very different reasons why ~20% of MDs are taking 5 years to finish a 4 year degree vs ~20% of DPMs. I may well be mistaken but I doubt it's because students in podiatry schools are taking research years while in school.

 

[bobtheweazel]

The point you're missing though is that there may well be very different reasons why ~20% of MDs are taking 5 years to finish a 4 year degree vs ~20% of DPMs. I may well be mistaken but I doubt it's because students in podiatry schools are taking research years while in school.

What you're missing is that the stats on that AAMC report that I'm quoting explicitly say MD-only as opposed to MD-PhD, MD-MBA, and MD-MPH programs. So for the block of MD students making up those stats (most MD students), their reason for not graduating in four years cannot be because they are completing another degree concurrently.

Also, this report specifically makes two categories, one for those who do not take leave for research and one for those who do (or take leave for other reasons). The 82.5% 4 year graduation rate is for MDs who do not take leave for research. For those who take leave for research or other reasons the 4 year graduation rate is 82.7% and the 5 year graduation rate is 82.7%, although the report states that "taking time out of a MD-only degree program for research that does not lead to a second degree does not have an impact on ultimate graduation rates" as by 8 years both groups (those who took leave and those who didn't) are up to about a 97% graduation rate.

https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

 

[cactusman]

What you're missing is that the stats on that AAMC report that I'm quoting explicitly say MD-only as opposed to MD-PhD, MD-MBA, and MD-MPH programs. So for the block of MD students making up those stats (most MD students), their reason for not graduating in four years cannot be because they are completing another degree concurrently.

Also, this report specifically makes two categories, one for those who do not take leave for research and one for those who do. The 82.5% 4 year graduation rate is for MDs who do not take leave for research.

https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

I can't find anything that says Table 1 excludes people who took a non-joint-degree research year.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

What you're missing is that the stats on that AAMC report that I'm quoting explicitly say MD-only as opposed to MD-PhD, MD-MBA, and MD-MPH programs. So for the block of MD students making up those stats (most MD students), their reason for not graduating in four years cannot be because they are completing another degree concurrently.

Also, this report specifically makes two categories, one for those who do not take leave for research and one for those who do (or take leave for other reasons). The 82.5% 4 year graduation rate is for MDs who do not take leave for research. For those who take leave for research or other reasons the 4 year graduation rate is 82.7% and the 5 year graduation rate is 82.7%, although the report states that "taking time out of a MD-only degree program for research that does not lead to a second degree does not have an impact on ultimate graduation rates" as by 8 years both groups (those who took leave and those who didn't) are up to about a 97% graduation rate.

https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

No, it's not. The 82.7% figure is for ALL MDs, not specifically those who didn't take time off for research.

 

[Psai]

What you're missing is that the stats on that AAMC report that I'm quoting explicitly say MD-only as opposed to MD-PhD, MD-MBA, and MD-MPH programs. So for the block of MD students making up those stats (most MD students), their reason for not graduating in four years cannot be because they are completing another degree concurrently.

Also, this report specifically makes two categories, one for those who do not take leave for research and one for those who do (or take leave for other reasons). The 82.5% 4 year graduation rate is for MDs who do not take leave for research. For those who take leave for research or other reasons the 4 year graduation rate is 82.7% and the 5 year graduation rate is 82.7%, although the report states that "taking time out of a MD-only degree program for research that does not lead to a second degree does not have an impact on ultimate graduation rates" as by 8 years both groups (those who took leave and those who didn't) are up to about a 97% graduation rate.

https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Thats nice but none of this makes podiatry school equivalent to medical school

 

[bobtheweazel]

I can't find anything that says Table 1 excludes people who took a non-joint-degree research year.

No, it's not. The 82.7% figure is for ALL MDs, not specifically those who didn't take time off for research.

Dang, y'all are killin' me on the specifics here. Y'all are correct. It was 86% for MDs who didn't take a leave of absence and 82.5% for all MDs.

The only point of all this is that yes the attrition rate at DPM schools is higher than at MD schools, but it's not like everybody fails out left and right. TUSPM specifically was called out for their attrition rate but their 4 year graduation rate is 86% and their 6 year graduation rate is over 90% so I'm not sure how much better someone could expect it to be.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Thats nice but none of this makes podiatry school equivalent to medical school

Cool story bro.

 

[TimmyTurner]

Thats nice but none of this makes podiatry school equivalent to medical school

One day, you will be struck by a blinding light, followed by a loud popping sound.
That will be the day that you get your head out of your ass.
Our curriculum is quite similar. The main differences- MD/DOs do more OBGYN, Psych, Women's health- we replace that with lower extremity anatomy. The rest is very similar, if not identical.

If you're trying to step on heads in order to make yourself feel taller, I'm sure you're a deeply happy person. It says a lot more about you than it does about us.

 

[Sweatshirt]

Would you recommend podiatry school for those who have both a low MCAT and GPA? Also, it is required to obtain an LOR from a podiatrist?

Depends on what you define low as. Our stats are lower than MD/DO schools but you still need okay numbers to get in. I think the averages are about a +/- 497 MCAT and 3.2 GPA, somewhere around there. If you have the stats for pod school, then yes I highly recommend it.

And yes you need a LOR from a podiatrist. They aren't too hard to get if you do some shadowing. I only shadowed this guy for like 20 hours and he gave me one

 

[Sweatshirt]

Wow you guys blew this thread up. I woke up with 12 notifications. I'm not gonna get into the salary debate. There's so many different variables and sources out there. But my 2 cents is that residents start out at like 40-60K. 3rd year residents on the pod forums have posted job offers ranging in the 120K-220K range. A great plus about podiatry is there is a very high earnings ceiling if you put in the work. You definitely will not have trouble paying off your loans

Since someone else already resuscitated it...I want to say how impressed I am with the maturity of the podiatry students responding in this thread, particularly the OP. I am going to put my best application together and apply once to MD/DO and I hope that if that is not enough that I will demonstrate the maturity the three of you have and walk away or do something else.

As an aside...my older cousin is a podiatrist in a somewhat rural area. My father recently told me she is thinking about going to school to become an NP (I assume to expand her scope of work)...which was a shock to me because my whole life everyone in my family seemed to imply she went to medical school and my father was most adamant she had an MD. In fact, when I told him she must have a DPM and not an MD because there would be no point in getting an NP if she had an MD he vehemently stated that I was wrong and that she had an MD. My cousin and I are the first generation to go to college so there is a chance she did explain the difference to my family and they just misunderstood.


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Good luck to you whatever pathway you choose. If you like genuinely like medicine you will be happy with either option. BTW, seems really weird that a DPM (or an MD) would go back to school and get an NP, I don't really see the benefit in that. I think the only reason a DPM would do that is because they didn't want to be a DPM anymore. It's not like we do super similar stuff

No.

But I also wouldn't recommend attempting to become a physician in any capacity with a low MCAT/GPA. Too many MD/DO students get stressed and unsatisfied with tons of debt and can't match into what they want and struggle in clinic. In podiatry, the students with low MCAT and GPA frequently flunk out. I also think podiatry is a great profession to pursue if you like it even if you have a GPA/MCAT that can get you into a MD school (assuming you can keep your debt relatively low, which gets easier when you want pod and have a higher GPA/MCAT as that gives you options), but it's a bad idea to pursue podiatry as a "back up" unless you really want to do it.

This is also very true. I had a high GPA but a low MCAT. I knew I would be successful in school if I worked hard enough. Any type of medical school, including podiatry, is fricking hard. It's not for everybody. If you have low stats, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and see if this really is the right field for you. It would suck to have to drop out after paying all that tuition money.

I do not understand how this is a solid option. It's four years of school (average 200k), and the average income for a podiatrist is $115k. From my understanding, the job market for podiatrists is thinning out. PA, NPA - both require less school, and are cheaper but they are all on the same pay grade. (My information is based off of the opinion of one podiatrist though)

Yeah, I don't believe that is too accurate. Some of my colleagues have posted about salaries up above so check that out if you want. As I mentioned above, pods coming out of residency are receiving offers in the $120K-220K range. Plus, we have a much higher earning potential ceiling than PAs and NPs.

Also, the job market is definitely not thinning out, it's actually getting better. There's so many baby boomers retiring right now, and diabetes isn't going away anytime soon

It is crazy to see how low the stats are for podiatry admission and then see that their average salaries are in the $200k range. I feel like there are so many people trying to get into MD/DO, PA, NP, CRNA, optometry, dental, pharmacy etc. and some are still taking several years to get in. Is podiatry that big of a secret that these type of students wouldn't look into podiatry? Seems pretty legit-- pretty easy to get into stats wise with an attrition rate similar to medical school (mentioned above) but end up making a good chunk of change or at least on par with primary care physicians ish. Better keep the secret to yourselves ha!

Seriously, maybe I shouldn't have started this thread haha. Everyone in the profession says how it's a major hidden gem inside medicine

 

[TXMED_1695]

There are numerous posts on this site from podiatrists (not students), that are claiming the exact opposite of what you are saying in regards to salaries.

Wow you guys blew this thread up. I woke up with 12 notifications. I'm not gonna get into the salary debate. There's so many different variables and sources out there. But my 2 cents is that residents start out at like 40-60K. 3rd year residents on the pod forums have posted job offers ranging in the 120K-220K range. A great plus about podiatry is there is a very high earnings ceiling if you put in the work. You definitely will not have trouble paying off your loans


Good luck to you whatever pathway you choose. If you like genuinely like medicine you will be happy with either option. BTW, seems really weird that a DPM (or an MD) would go back to school and get an NP, I don't really see the benefit in that. I think the only reason a DPM would do that is because they didn't want to be a DPM anymore. It's not like we do super similar stuff


This is also very true. I had a high GPA but a low MCAT. I knew I would be successful in school if I worked hard enough. Any type of medical school, including podiatry, is fricking hard. It's not for everybody. If you have low stats, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and see if this really is the right field for you. It would suck to have to drop out after paying all that tuition money.

Yeah, I don't believe that is too accurate. Some of my colleagues have posted about salaries up above so check that out if you want. As I mentioned above, pods coming out of residency are receiving offers in the $120K-220K range. Plus, we have a much higher earning potential ceiling than PAs and NPs.

Also, the job market is definitely not thinning out, it's actually getting better. There's so many baby boomers retiring right now, and diabetes isn't going away anytime soon

Seriously, maybe I shouldn't have started this thread haha. Everyone in the profession says how it's a major hidden gem inside medicine

 

[bobtheweazel]

There are numerous posts on this site from podiatrists (not students), that are claiming the exact opposite of what you are saying in regards to salaries.

Could we agree that anecdotes are simply anecdotes and even if true only probably represent the fewer than a dozen podiatrists who have claimed what you're saying? While also you're ignoring those on the residents/physicians section claiming to be getting starting salaries out of residency up to $280,000.

Let's instead look to the surveys.

MGMA 2010 (Did you not agree that MGMAs numbers are realistic for other specialties they track?)
General podiatry mean: $216,611
Surgical podiatry mean: $287,449
ACFAS 2015 (Surgical organization so we can assume mostly surgical podiatrists)
Mean base salary: $211,723
Mean bonuses: $51,108
APMA 2015 Young Physician's Survey (Stat below specifically for podiatrists in practice for only 1-5 years, so what you can expect towards the beginning of a career)
Mean salary including bonuses: $172,577

 

[Sweatshirt]

There are numerous posts on this site from podiatrists (not students), that are claiming the exact opposite of what you are saying in regards to salaries.

Check this thread out for anybody interested in salaries. It talks about real offers coming out of residency. Podiatry Employment/Income as a New Grad - questions answered

This one is a bit older, but a great read. Doesn't give any numbers, but talks about the how we make our money and the ceiling we keep mentioning. My comments regarding DPM income

Everything I mentioned is in there. He/she says they all are taking home at least $100K year 1 out, with most taking home $150K. Also, it shows how the more seasoned podiatrists are taking home $250K+. Be careful of all these online surveys say. They aren't always accurate and there's so many different variables that need to be taken into account. I'm in the schools, talking to professors, deans, 3rd, 4th, years, even people in residencies associated with our school. The career is a bright one, you will make a VERY comfortable living, well ahead of the curve

That's the last I'll touch on salary, if anybody else wants to talk about something else I'll be here!

 

[FutureDoc3094]

@Sweatshirt How did your write your personal statement for podiatry school since you made the switch from MD? Did you address the change?

 

[Sweatshirt]

@Sweatshirt How did your write your personal statement for podiatry school since you made the switch from MD? Did you address the change?

I did not address the change in my personal statement. However, when you apply you have to check a little box to tell them if you're applying for any other medical schools like MD/DO. I did, but the change never came up in any interviews or anything

For my personal statement, I actually didn't change much. The first half was the same, I told my story about how came to want a career in medicine. The second half I just changed to be more specific towards podiatry. I talked about my involvement with sports, desire to do surgery, and how I liked the diversity within the field. It wasn't too hard to edit the personal statement since both fields are pretty similar

 

[WGSgrad]

Good luck to you whatever pathway you choose. If you like genuinely like medicine you will be happy with either option. BTW, seems really weird that a DPM (or an MD) would go back to school and get an NP, I don't really see the benefit in that. I think the only reason a DPM would do that is because they didn't want to be a DPM anymore. It's not like we do super similar stuff

Thank you. And I think you're probably right.

She is definitely a DPM. I spoke with her after I spoke with my father. However, we didn't speak about her interest in getting an NP. I would assume the desire for the NP has something to do with expanding her scope of practice...it poor, under served, rural portion of Georgia so maybe it's about expanding services to clients? I would call her an ask her but unlike most parents, my parents would be displeased to hear I a pursuing a medical education, and our conversation would get back to them, so I will have to find out later.

 

[Sweatshirt]

Thank you. And I think you're probably right.

She is definitely a DPM. I spoke with her after I spoke with my father. However, we didn't speak about her interest in getting an NP. I would assume the desire for the NP has something to do with expanding her scope of practice...it poor, under served, rural portion of Georgia so maybe it's about expanding services to clients? I would call her an ask her but unlike most parents, my parents would be displeased to hear I a pursuing a medical education, and our conversation would get back to them, so I will have to find out later.

Forget about what your family wants you to do, do whatever makes you most happy. They'll get over it