Upset over my college days disappearing due to the pre-med game

[NotWayneBrady]

Every single person that goes through medical training sacrifices something to do it. It is a long and hard course. If you can't find a balance now, I strongly recommend against pursuing a career in medicine. There is nothing magical about your undergrad years or medical school or becoming an attending. You are going to be busy from now until the end of your career. Your grades will matter. What people think of you will matter. If you are unhappy sacrificing things now, you are either destined to be miserable in this profession or you have no idea what you are doing. Being a rather optimistic person, I'm not sure which I think is more likely here. Given that I don't know you at all, I won't guess.

I will however point out things in your original post that I wonder about...


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Good grades is not enough. Why should they be? Good MCAT score is not enough. Why should it be? You need to volunteer to show that you know what medicine is like. No, you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year without volunteering. Plenty of people get into medical school having no clue what they are doing. If you don't think this is a bad idea, I don't know how to help you. You need to do research to show that you have scientific curiosity. No you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year with zero research. Further, research experience is far more than 'demonstrating scientific curiosity'. You need to do community service to show that you are dedicated to your community. No, you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year with zero community service. Most people, admissions committees included value altruism because most of us as a result of our experiences think that it makes for better future physicians. While there certainly isn't a randomized trial to demonstrate this, I think it is hard to argue that this isn't logically sound.

Worse yet, I have to put down the number of hours that I have contributed towards my personal hobby. And I would be put on the hot spot if I were not to have one. It feels like harassment sometimes. (The fact that I will be asked about my personal hobbies in medical school interview process makes me extremely uncomfortable. They are for MY enjoyment and MY personal happiness ONLY. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to use it as a tool to get in. But the thing is that I participate in certain recitals and programs that have my name associated online. A google search of my name will show you what sport and instrument I play. So if some adcom googles my name and sees it and sees that I haven't put it on my application, he or she will ask me about it or wonder why I never mentioned it in my interview. And that will jeopardize my chances.) You don't have to put down hours on any experience you don't want to. Nobody is going to negative mark you if they happen to find out that you do other things. The fact that you think this is worrisome by itself given how illogical it is.

The reason that I do not want to talk about it is that everything else on the app (shadowing, research, clinical exposure) has an aspect of presentation and showcasing your experiences, which is fine. I don't want to do that with the things that I do that are very personal to me. My sport and instrument are both very personal to me. So then don't put it on your application.

It just gets too much sometimes.

It's one thing to be in medical school and handle its rigor. It's another to spend your precious college years trying to prove to adcoms that you can handle being a doctor and you can handle being in medical school. I get it, you feel entitled to happy, free college years and also go to medical school.

Why isn't it as simple as "Are you good at science, do you want to help people, and are you humble?" Because people lie. Worse yet, they don't actually know the answers to those questions.

A person who truly wants to help people and truly loves science would be a great doctor, even if he or she has not shadowed or volunteered before going to med school. This is simply not true.

What I want to ask is, how does one balance both impressing adcoms and enjoying college life? I'll be frank. I showed up.

Stop trying to impress admissions committees.
#1 Figure out what makes you happy
#2 Do those things
#3 If becoming a doctor is what will make you happy, then figure out how the admissions process works. Yes, most, if not all applicants need to sacrifice aspects of their lives in order to get into medical school. But, the concept that admissions is all encompassing and soul crushing is errant. You are either doing something wrong or on the wrong path.

If there were ever the equivalent of Reddit gold for SDN, this deserves it.

OP, the world doesn't owe you a thing. Life is work, and requires sacrifices sometimes. This never ends.

Edit: Honest recommendation here OP, try getting off of SDN. The atmosphere here can bring out the worst neuroticism in people and if it's detrimental to your mental health / outlook on this process, you need to cut it out of your life.

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[aalamruad]

Every single person that goes through medical training sacrifices something to do it. It is a long and hard course. If you can't find a balance now, I strongly recommend against pursuing a career in medicine. There is nothing magical about your undergrad years or medical school or becoming an attending. You are going to be busy from now until the end of your career. Your grades will matter. What people think of you will matter. If you are unhappy sacrificing things now, you are either destined to be miserable in this profession or you have no idea what you are doing. Being a rather optimistic person, I'm not sure which I think is more likely here. Given that I don't know you at all, I won't guess.

I will however point out things in your original post that I wonder about...


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Good grades is not enough. Why should they be? Good MCAT score is not enough. Why should it be? You need to volunteer to show that you know what medicine is like. No, you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year without volunteering. Plenty of people get into medical school having no clue what they are doing. If you don't think this is a bad idea, I don't know how to help you. You need to do research to show that you have scientific curiosity. No you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year with zero research. Further, research experience is far more than 'demonstrating scientific curiosity'. You need to do community service to show that you are dedicated to your community. No, you don't. Plenty of people get into medical school every year with zero community service. Most people, admissions committees included value altruism because most of us as a result of our experiences think that it makes for better future physicians. While there certainly isn't a randomized trial to demonstrate this, I think it is hard to argue that this isn't logically sound.

Worse yet, I have to put down the number of hours that I have contributed towards my personal hobby. And I would be put on the hot spot if I were not to have one. It feels like harassment sometimes. (The fact that I will be asked about my personal hobbies in medical school interview process makes me extremely uncomfortable. They are for MY enjoyment and MY personal happiness ONLY. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to use it as a tool to get in. But the thing is that I participate in certain recitals and programs that have my name associated online. A google search of my name will show you what sport and instrument I play. So if some adcom googles my name and sees it and sees that I haven't put it on my application, he or she will ask me about it or wonder why I never mentioned it in my interview. And that will jeopardize my chances.) You don't have to put down hours on any experience you don't want to. Nobody is going to negative mark you if they happen to find out that you do other things. The fact that you think this is worrisome by itself given how illogical it is.

The reason that I do not want to talk about it is that everything else on the app (shadowing, research, clinical exposure) has an aspect of presentation and showcasing your experiences, which is fine. I don't want to do that with the things that I do that are very personal to me. My sport and instrument are both very personal to me. So then don't put it on your application.

It just gets too much sometimes.

It's one thing to be in medical school and handle its rigor. It's another to spend your precious college years trying to prove to adcoms that you can handle being a doctor and you can handle being in medical school. I get it, you feel entitled to happy, free college years and also go to medical school.

Why isn't it as simple as "Are you good at science, do you want to help people, and are you humble?" Because people lie. Worse yet, they don't actually know the answers to those questions.

A person who truly wants to help people and truly loves science would be a great doctor, even if he or she has not shadowed or volunteered before going to med school. This is simply not true.

What I want to ask is, how does one balance both impressing adcoms and enjoying college life? I'll be frank. I showed up.

Stop trying to impress admissions committees.
#1 Figure out what makes you happy
#2 Do those things
#3 If becoming a doctor is what will make you happy, then figure out how the admissions process works. Yes, most, if not all applicants need to sacrifice aspects of their lives in order to get into medical school. But, the concept that admissions is all encompassing and soul crushing is errant. You are either doing something wrong or on the wrong path.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "I showed up"?

 

[Lawpy]

I swear, colleague, this is probably the single greatest post I've ever seen on SDN.
Mods, please sticky!

I'm reorganizing some things and it'll be up in the Essential SDN sticky. Simply amazing and kudos to you, @gyngyn @mimelim and @WedgeDawg for explaining patiently and in detail. Incredibly valuable advice.

 

[Goro]

My learned colleague Is referring to a Woody Allen joke which goes, 90% of life is just showing up.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "I showed up"?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Thanks to all the older, respectful people who explained to me the flaws in my mentality. I appreciate it and you're right, I do need to relax.

To all the others stating that I'm complaining, or that I'm looking for a pity party, you couldn't be more wrong. I have shadowed and volunteered and have held top level grades at my university. I'm already almost done with being pre med. So why would I complain at this point? What you call "complaining" I call venting. I'm entitled to have my feelings. And I am entitled to voice my opinions and I will gladly change them when someone like @Goro or @mimelim gives me the proper advice and/or guidance.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I don't know why exactly. It's just that the admissions process makes me feel very judged so I feel as if my hobbies are going to be used as a way to evaluate me rather than get to know me. Admittedly it's my lack of understanding of the admissions process but I don't know how to get over this feeling

1) This is something that you have to move past and grow a little. You will always be judged - resumes, dating, etc. What you have to learn to do is not ascribe WHAT you do with WHO you are. Adcoms will ask "What do you do in your free time". It's not a Rorschach Test where they judge you. But rather simply to see if you have personal passions our have just spent your time checking boxes because you thought that was the "right way".
2) enjoy the naiveté of not knowing about the process. Get good grades, enjoy your hobbies, volunteer when you can and don't stress about the process until you need to. No one's holding a gun to your head to apply your senior year. Take a gap year, evaluate and lower your obligation count.

It's not even about that. It's about taking what I love doing and being forced to manipulate it and put it on an app. And that doesn't even include that fact that an adcom might make a judgement like "This isn't a real sport at an NCAA level" or "this activity doesn't relate to medicine" which makes it even more worse.

3)Do you think it's easier to take a BS activity you did as a resume builder and somehow manipulate that to create a lasting/unique impression on an application?
4) Again, it's their job to make judgements. The only way they diminish the value of an activity is if they can tell you totally phoned it in.

Finally, OP, its obvious that you're stressed. And with fair reason. This isn't easy. But you are trying to enter an elite profession that is gaining applicants faster than new seats can open. If there was ever a time to fully put yourself out there, now is the time.

 

[piii]

Thanks to all the older, respectful people who explained to me the flaws in my mentality. I appreciate it and you're right, I do need to relax.

To all the others stating that I'm complaining, or that I'm looking for a pity party, you couldn't be more wrong. I have shadowed and volunteered and have held top level grades at my university. I'm already almost done with being pre med. So why would I complain at this point? What you call "complaining" I call venting. I'm entitled to have my feelings. And I am entitled to voice my opinions and I will gladly change them when someone like @Goro or @mimelim gives me the proper advice and/or guidance.

Complaining: expressing dissatisfaction or annoyance about a current set of affairs.

You were definitely complaining, which can be a form of venting. It's fine, it's normal, you don't have to hide from that aspect of your personality.

 

[w0rldw3y3d]

Boy, if OP is not liking losing his college years due to being pre-med then he is gonna be P!$$ED when he finds out his twenties are gone to med school and his thirties are gone to residency!

 

[TallPreMed]

Sorry OP but it's hard to take you seriously when your name reminds me of my AIM screen name from middle school.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Sorry OP but it's hard to take you seriously when your name reminds me of my AIM screen name from middle school.

Deleted. What I wrote was a little rude. If you read that before I deleted it, I apologize. It was uncalled for.

 

[mimelim]

My learned colleague Is referring to a Woody Allen joke which goes, 90% of life is just showing up.

I was actually just being a dick. Ego running away and all as a surgical badass etc. etc.

It is from Woody Allen, but I wouldn't consider it a joke so much as a quote. And it's 80%, no 90%

 

[md-2020]

It is from Woody Allen, but I wouldn't consider it a joke so much as a quote. And it's 80%, no 90%

Well that's just unacceptable, showing up would only get me a B???

 

[URHere]

Others have given you a lot of good advice here, but I'll just add this: there is no rule stating that you have to go straight from college to medical school.

Medicine is a special kind of career - there is nothing more valuable in this world than our lives and the lives of our loved ones, and the point of medicine is to protect those things. That responsibility shouldn't be offered easily...but it can be really hard to predict which applicants are best suited to medicine when no one can really experience it firsthand until they've already been trained. The system tries to get around that uncertainty by valuing potential (GPA and MCAT), AND experience/insight (shadowing), AND genuine interest (volunteering). I think the original idea was that the people who wanted medicine for the "right reasons" would seek out all of those things on their own...but over time a checklist was born. As a result, a lot of pre-meds started sacrificing hobbies, interests, and happiness without really thinking about why they were making those choices.

...Which brings me back to my original point. If you want to cultivate other hobbies and interests, you have time. Worst case scenario, you take a gap year or two and enter medicine sure that it's what you really want. Best case scenario? You find another passion that you were ignoring in your blind quest to jump through hoops. Medicine can be fulfilling, it comes with a nice title, and it pays well...but it isn't for everyone. For anyone who feels like they are missing a big part of their life as a pre-med, I would suggest figuring out exactly which part of yourself is missing before you continue down the medical school path.

Also, there are no secrets in medicine. If you feel uncomfortable sharing your hobbies with a panel of strangers, how are you going to feel about disclosing your medical/psychiatric history, past remediations, etc when you apply for a medical license?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Others have given you a lot of good advice here, but I'll just add this: there is no rule stating that you have to go straight from college to medical school.

Medicine is a special kind of career - there is nothing more valuable in this world than our lives and the lives of our loved ones, and the point of medicine is to protect those things. That responsibility shouldn't be offered easily...but it can be really hard to predict which applicants are best suited to medicine when no one can really experience it firsthand until they've already been trained. The system tries to get around that uncertainty by valuing potential (GPA and MCAT), AND experience/insight (shadowing), AND genuine interest (volunteering). I think the original idea was that the people who wanted medicine for the "right reasons" would seek out all of those things on their own...but over time a checklist was born. As a result, a lot of pre-meds started sacrificing hobbies, interests, and happiness without really thinking about why they were making those choices.

...Which brings me back to my original point. If you want to cultivate other hobbies and interests, you have time. Worst case scenario, you take a gap year or two and enter medicine sure that it's what you really want. Best case scenario? You find another passion that you were ignoring in your blind quest to jump through hoops. Medicine can be fulfilling, it comes with a nice title, and it pays well...but it isn't for everyone. For anyone who feels like they are missing a big part of their life as a pre-med, I would suggest figuring out exactly which part of yourself is missing before you continue down the medical school path.

Also, there are no secrets in medicine. If you feel uncomfortable sharing your hobbies with a panel of strangers, how are you going to feel about disclosing your medical/psychiatric history, past remediations, etc when you apply for a medical license?

The bolded shows that you haven't really understood why I don't want to share my personal hobbies. I don't blame you. Communication can be very complicated over text when you are trying to communicate a message that is difficult to put in words. Thanks for the other advice though!

 

[URHere]

The bolded shows that you haven't really understood why I don't want to share my personal hobbies. I don't blame you. Communication can be very complicated over text when you are trying to communicate a message that is difficult to put in words. Thanks for the other advice though!

Honestly, no, I don't understand your reluctance. When it comes to applications, hobbies humanize you. They help the admissions committee see you as more than a generic GPA or MCAT score. They give your interviewers something fun to talk to you about. They give your personality a chance to shine through, despite the generic checklist.

If your hobbies are morally controversial, I can understand not disclosing...but sports, instruments, and even fraternities are mentioned all of the time. No one is asking you to spin your hobbies - it's good if you have a part of your life that isn't directly related to medicine. If you think someone will judge you for that, you're almost certainly being paranoid. Talking about your hobbies is only going to help you.

 

[WingedOx]

And it's 80%, no 90%

Depends on if you benefit from white privilege or not...

/ducks!

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'm going to defend the OP just a bit here.

Obviously a thread on SDN isn't going to impact how med school admissions works or "the pre-med game." It is what it is and you either naturally accumulate a profile that is attractive for med schools or you to some degree or another have to self-consciously go after meeting the desired criteria.

That said, I'm not sure why these discussions by necessity have to result in (and never really go beyond) the "you're not entitled to anything...med school is a privilege...if you aren't up to very happily meeting and trying exceed the criteria take your ball and go home because you obviously aren't cut out for this anyway (and don't have the right attitude/appreciation/traits, etc)" and so on and so on.

It is an arms race (which is not to say that there aren't any HMS and other top med school types who are so gifted, so special, and so much bursting with humanity that theybecome ideal candidates without ever worrying about box-checking or ever even remotely smelling of box-checking), and the demands to make oneself a competitive applicant keep increasing (higher median stats, higher targets for hours logged and quality of EC experiences, also having something unique about you that might be outstanding you and/or having experiences/interests/hobbies that make you interesting, etc, etc). I imagine that for a very large majority of the applicant pool, the arms race kind of dynamic creates the opposite desired effect. In other words, instead of pursuing other interests and interesting parts of oneself, there is enormous pressure to hit and exceed all of the target criteria. Yes, a person can compensate to some degree by taking two to three gap years to allow more time/space for "individuality" and more electic, non-med school related pursuits, but the person still somewhere along the way has to fulfill the ever-increasing and more demanding criteria (not to mention that it is understandable that most folks don't want to keep delaying beginning a process (med school + residency) that is going to take at least 7-8 years before one can start practicing (and all that that means in terms of waiting for more "real" income, supporting a family, purchasing a home, paying back loans, saving, etc).

In short, I think the OP raises some issues worthy of reasonable discussion without (or at least not limited to) charges of whining, not being fit for becoming a physician, etc.

To the OP I would say that the things (hobbies/interests) that you want to protect as yours as opposed to activities that get usurped into your "med school profile," I do think you are falling for a false dilemma and I agree with what some others are telling you. You can continue those interests and continue to own them as things you do that are independent from your application profile while still allowing schools to know more about you to add some color to who you are and what you are about as a person.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I was going to write a long-ish post but as always @mimelim hits it out of the park.

So I'll just make a couple points:

1. Unfortunately, no matter what path you take in life, you will have to do things you won't necessarily want to do in order to impress or please other people. Or simply because they said so. Why? Because they have power and you need something from them (in this case, a medical education). Once you work for a living, under a boss you don't particularly like, you will come to appreciate this fact.

2. Sometimes people in power know more than you do and have more wisdom. Adcoms want to see certain things on applications for very good reason. Volunteering and community service are there to encourage personal growth, not to check a box on an app. Research is recommended because science is the driving force behind medical progress. A profound understanding of its principles and execution are critical to optimal treatment of your future patients, who will be trusting you with their lives. First-hand experience in research lends a far better understanding of how science is done, and also how it can be flawed, misinterpreted, or manipulated by conflicts of interest. Shadowing allows you to see what a potentially very stressful career will actually be like, and corrects whatever flawed expectations you may have developed (Grey's Anatomy, I'm looking at you).

Adcoms are quite literally giving you the secrets to becoming a great doctor. You shouldn't see these expectations as burdens - be thankful that you are being explicitly told which experiences you should be exposing yourself to, in order to become the best person you can be.

I don't understand this. Handing out soup in a soup kitchen is much easier than being compassionate to a patient that threw crap on you, or punched you in the face, yet RN is just a check in the box. Most volunteering in my eyes is a joke. How hard is it to volunteer to help the needy? Helping grateful people is EASY.

 

[500miles]

First of all I have felt exactly like what OP is saying. The funny thing about med school wanting to know about your hobbies is conversely so that you will HAVE a life before you get to med school. But I totally get that feeling like you have to have all of these things polished perfectly. The main thing is that they want to know about what you like to do other than school to see a balanced person. This means don't let it get you stressed and do the things you enjoy and then have fun telling them about it

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't understand this. Handing out soup in a soup kitchen is much easier than being compassionate to a patient that threw crap on you, or punched you in the face, yet RN is just a check in the box. Most volunteering in my eyes is a joke. How hard is it to volunteer to help the needy? Helping grateful people is EASY.

Lol someone sounds a little bitter....

 

[stickgirl390]

You think playing an instrument or volleyball (or w/e) looks bad?

Try volunteering at a horse rescue for a couple months. Then all your interviewers can scowl at you and say "Well if you love animals so much why dont you be a vet?" And they will dismiss you out of hand before even talking to you.

I disagree. My only clinical experience (not counting shadowing) was 4000 hrs in veterinary medicine. Not once was I asked “why not vet”. Your application is looked at as a whole, not as its pieces.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I disagree. My only clinical experience (not counting shadowing) was 4000 hrs in veterinary medicine. Not once was I asked “why not vet”. Your application is looked at as a whole, not as its pieces.

Will likely be interviewer dependent. The only law related thing in my app is an immigration law policy paper, and even in my EMDP2 interview, I was asked why not law (despite 10,000 hours of clinical experience in human medicine).

 

[stickgirl390]

Will likely be interviewer dependent. The only law related thing in my app is an immigration law policy paper, and even in my EMDP2 interview, I was asked why not law (despite 10,000 hours of clinical experience in human medicine).

I will agree that yes it is interviewer dependent. I will also say that I’ve been interviewed by 16 different people for medical school, and I’ve never been asked “why not vet”. Two LORs from veterinarians as well. My sample size is small, but it’s large enough to show that any application can be tailored to align with the end goal. I think I take it personally because I see a lot of people who think experience in animal medicine will hurt their chances at med school. On the flip side, it is possible that I was never asked “why not vet” because after 4000 hours, if I had liked it I would have stayed lol.

 

[stickgirl390]

Also just noticing we’re rehashing a thread that’s a year old....oops

 

[Anti-PD1]

Good grades is not enough. Good MCAT score is not enough. You need to volunteer to show that you know what medicine is like. You need to do research to show that you have scientific curiosity. You need to do community service to show that you are dedicated to your community.

Worse yet, I have to put down the number of hours that I have contributed towards my personal hobby. And I would be put on the hot spot if I were not to have one. It feels like harassment sometimes. (The fact that I will be asked about my personal hobbies in medical school interview process makes me extremely uncomfortable. They are for MY enjoyment and MY personal happiness ONLY. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to use it as a tool to get in. But the thing is that I participate in certain recitals and programs that have my name associated online. A google search of my name will show you what sport and instrument I play. So if some adcom googles my name and sees it and sees that I haven't put it on my application, he or she will ask me about it or wonder why I never mentioned it in my interview. And that will jeopardize my chances.)

The reason that I do not want to talk about it is that everything else on the app (shadowing, research, clinical exposure) has an aspect of presentation and showcasing your experiences, which is fine. I don't want to do that with the things that I do that are very personal to me. My sport and instrument are both very personal to me.

It just gets too much sometimes.

It's one thing to be in medical school and handle its rigor. It's another to spend your precious college years trying to prove to adcoms that you can handle being a doctor and you can handle being in medical school.

Why isn't it as simple as "Are you good at science, do you want to help people, and are you humble?"

A person who truly wants to help people and truly loves science would be a great doctor, even if he or she has not shadowed or volunteered before going to med school.

What I want to ask is, how does one balance both impressing adcoms and enjoying college life?

There's a hobbies section on the ERAS (residency) app. I felt the same way. It doesn't end here for you.

I wish there wasn't a game to play, but you have to play to win.

 

[Gilakend]

I honestly love college. Relax man, its so much easier than you think. Seeing undergrad as a means to end to get to med school is a horrible thought process. Enjoy the journey.

"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in awhile, you could miss it." -Ferris Bueller

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Good grades is not enough. Good MCAT score is not enough. You need to volunteer to show that you know what medicine is like. You need to do research to show that you have scientific curiosity. You need to do community service to show that you are dedicated to your community.

Worse yet, I have to put down the number of hours that I have contributed towards my personal hobby. And I would be put on the hot spot if I were not to have one. It feels like harassment sometimes. (The fact that I will be asked about my personal hobbies in medical school interview process makes me extremely uncomfortable. They are for MY enjoyment and MY personal happiness ONLY. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to use it as a tool to get in. But the thing is that I participate in certain recitals and programs that have my name associated online. A google search of my name will show you what sport and instrument I play. So if some adcom googles my name and sees it and sees that I haven't put it on my application, he or she will ask me about it or wonder why I never mentioned it in my interview. And that will jeopardize my chances.)

The reason that I do not want to talk about it is that everything else on the app (shadowing, research, clinical exposure) has an aspect of presentation and showcasing your experiences, which is fine. I don't want to do that with the things that I do that are very personal to me. My sport and instrument are both very personal to me.

It just gets too much sometimes.

It's one thing to be in medical school and handle its rigor. It's another to spend your precious college years trying to prove to adcoms that you can handle being a doctor and you can handle being in medical school.

Why isn't it as simple as "Are you good at science, do you want to help people, and are you humble?"

A person who truly wants to help people and truly loves science would be a great doctor, even if he or she has not shadowed or volunteered before going to med school.

What I want to ask is, how does one balance both impressing adcoms and enjoying college life?

This is why so many people take a year or so off after college. I met 100 interviewees across all my interview days, and maybe 10-15 of us were still in undergrad. There’s so much to do that it’s hard to get it all done, nearly impossible if you need to work in college (hopefully that job is a TA or CNA, something to contribute to your application)

 

[RNtoMD87]

Lol someone sounds a little bitter....

Nah, I can play the game. I've done enough of that getting ahead in nursing and the Army. But I disagree that even though adcoms are not necessarily physicians that they know best as far as what will make a good medschool student.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nah, I can play the game. I've done enough of that getting ahead in nursing and the Army. But I disagree that even though adcoms are not necessarily physicians that they know best as far as what will make a good medschool student.

MD schools have a 95% graduation rate. They seem to be doing a decent job of picking successful med students.

 

[Goro]

Nah, I can play the game. I've done enough of that getting ahead in nursing and the Army. But I disagree that even though adcoms are not necessarily physicians that they know best as far as what will make a good medschool student.

And your experience in teaching medical students is exactly what???

 

[RNtoMD87]

And your experience in teaching medical students is exactly what???

My experience in life is that you aren't qualified to choose people for a job unless you've performed that job yourself. I've believed that for a long time. When I came into the Army I saw the consequences of this, and as I moved to the team leader and squad leader roles, I worked hard to prevent it to the best of my ability.


But I'm speaking on non doctors choosing candidates. I would HOPE all medschool instructors have been doctors before. Am I mistaken?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My experience in life is that you aren't qualified to choose people for a job unless you've performed that job yourself. I've believed that for a long time. When I came into the Army I saw the consequences of this, and as I moved to the team leader and squad leader roles, I worked hard to prevent it to the best of my ability.

The mean MCAT for matriculants to MD schools is ~509, and the GPA is 3.71. Most matriculants have research experience, clinical experience, non-clinical volunteering, leadership, and shadowing. Around 95% of these matriculants succeed in medical school and graduate, and the match rate is similarly high. So how are they failing to select for successful med students?

 

[Goro]

My experience in life is that you aren't qualified to choose people for a job unless you've performed that job yourself. I've believed that for a long time. When I came into the Army I saw the consequences of this, and as I moved to the team leader and squad leader roles, I worked hard to prevent it to the best of my ability.
But I'm speaking on non doctors choosing candidates. I would HOPE all med school instructors have been doctors before. Am I mistaken?

First off, many thanks for your service to our country. Hoooahh!

But you are mistaken on several counts. Med school is not the Armed Forces. We don't need to break people down in order to build them up to be part of a magnificent fighting machine.

I'm not a clinician, but I know what makes a good med student, because I've taught them for over 20 years. This isn't the argument from authority, it's the argument from experience. Even MS level instructors in the Anatomy lab can see what makes a good or poor student.

A med student isn't some magic being, s/he is an adult learner. Our jobs are to make sure that said learners are at a minimum, competent at what they both know and do, and at best, are masters at it.

TLDR: we don't have to be chickens to know about eggs.

 

[RNtoMD87]

First off, many thanks for your service to our country. Hoooahh!

But you are mistaken on several counts. Med school is not the Armed Forces. We don't need to break people down in order to build them up to be part of a magnificent fighting machine.

I'm not a clinician, but I know what makes a good med student, because I've taught them for over 20 years. This isn't the argument from authority, it's the argument from experience. Even MS level instructors in the Anatomy lab can see what makes a good or poor student.

A med student isn't some magic being, s/he is an adult learner. Our jobs are to make sure that said learners are at a minimum, competent at what they both know and do, and at best, are masters at it.

TLDR: we don't have to be chickens to know about eggs.

Well I will listen with open ears and ask you, maybe you can make some sense of this. How is volunteering at ones own pace, for people who are grateful really indicative of anything other than one had a couple extra hours per week to pad ones resume? I just fail to see it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well I will listen with open ears and ask you, maybe you can make some sense of this. How is volunteering at ones own pace, for people who are grateful really indicative of anything other than one had a couple extra hours per week to pad ones resume? I just fail to see it.

You don’t see how spending some of the few hours you have to yourself each week serving others shows your dedication to serving others?

 

[RNtoMD87]

You don’t see how spending some of the few hours you have to yourself each week serving others shows your dedication to serving others?

Nope. I honestly don't. Volunteering right now is the easiest thing I do. Dragging myself to work to care for patients who cuss me out, physically assault me, and especially homeless people who berate me because I can't get their tv to work or find time to run downstairs at 9 pm when I'm getting vitals and passing meds a sandwich bag, but still find myself running down at 11:30 to get them a sandwich bag and sometimes not getting to eat, myself, makes me feel like I'm a compassionate person. Which is nice compared to how heartless and sociopathic I felt in Iraq at times. But my volunteer work? It's a walk in the park. Smiling happy people thanking you for helping them? Its it's own reward.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Good grades is not enough. Good MCAT score is not enough. You need to volunteer to show that you know what medicine is like. You need to do research to show that you have scientific curiosity. You need to do community service to show that you are dedicated to your community.

Worse yet, I have to put down the number of hours that I have contributed towards my personal hobby. And I would be put on the hot spot if I were not to have one. It feels like harassment sometimes. (The fact that I will be asked about my personal hobbies in medical school interview process makes me extremely uncomfortable. They are for MY enjoyment and MY personal happiness ONLY. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to use it as a tool to get in. But the thing is that I participate in certain recitals and programs that have my name associated online. A google search of my name will show you what sport and instrument I play. So if some adcom googles my name and sees it and sees that I haven't put it on my application, he or she will ask me about it or wonder why I never mentioned it in my interview. And that will jeopardize my chances.)

The reason that I do not want to talk about it is that everything else on the app (shadowing, research, clinical exposure) has an aspect of presentation and showcasing your experiences, which is fine. I don't want to do that with the things that I do that are very personal to me. My sport and instrument are both very personal to me.

It just gets too much sometimes.

It's one thing to be in medical school and handle its rigor. It's another to spend your precious college years trying to prove to adcoms that you can handle being a doctor and you can handle being in medical school.

Why isn't it as simple as "Are you good at science, do you want to help people, and are you humble?"

A person who truly wants to help people and truly loves science would be a great doctor, even if he or she has not shadowed or volunteered before going to med school.

What I want to ask is, how does one balance both impressing adcoms and enjoying college life?

Lol so what you’re solution? Not require these experiences and then everyone can just claim they care about these things?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nope. I honestly don't. Volunteering right now is the easiest thing I do. Dragging myself to work to care for patients who cuss me out, physically assault me, and especially homeless people who berate me because I can't get their tv to work or find time to run downstairs at 9 pm when I'm getting vitals and passing meds a sandwich bag, but still find myself running down at 11:30 to get them a sandwich bag and sometimes not getting to eat, myself, makes me feel like I'm a compassionate person. Which is nice compared to how heartless and sociopathic I felt in Iraq at times. But my volunteer work? It's a walk in the park. Smiling happy people thanking you for helping them? Its it's own reward.

Solipsism is a thing. Try to remember that the vast majority of applicants do not have healthcare jobs or military service.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Solipsism is a thing. Try to remember that the vast majority of applicants do not have healthcare jobs or military service.

But why shouldn't people with life experience "non-traditional" be looked at before people who went to high school... went to college... did a little volunteer work.. then applied to med school? How do they even KNOW they want to be a doctor? I wasn't even sure if I wanted to be in the medical field. All I knew is I like helping people. It took being a nurse for a couple years, talking to many doctors, quite a few that had been nurses (and one, Dr. Russell who had started from being a CNA and worked his way all the way up to be an oncologist).

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I know it sucks sometimes. I look at my friends with easier majors and they’re always out every week end. They’re at the gym every week. They rarely ever have to study or have any kind of homework. But getting into medical school isn’t easy and with the increasing competition ECs matter more now than ever before. Still though I don’t see why you can’t still enjoy some of the experience. Especially if you don’t work like a lot of my pre med friends/acquaintances. I work but I’m surprised how many don’t work. It’s really a matter of spacing out your ECs over the 4 or 5 years you’re in school. Some people leave it to the last 4 to 6 semesters and then that’s much tougher. And this is why I recommend people take a gap year. Enjoy you’re like before Med school!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But why shouldn't people with life experience "non-traditional" be looked at before people who went to high school... went to college... did a little volunteer work.. then applied to med school? How do they even KNOW they want to be a doctor? I wasn't even sure if I wanted to be in the medical field. All I knew is I like helping people. It took being a nurse for a couple years, talking to many doctors, quite a few that had been nurses (and one, Dr. Russell who had started from being a CNA and worked his way all the way up to be an oncologist).

Because most applicants don’t have those experiences, and the process is already ridiculously long without requiring a year or two of clinical work as well.

Personally, I agree with the sentiment. I didn’t fully confirm that I wanted to be a physician until I was taking care of my Sailors, and that was after working as an OR tech for years.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

Start enjoying life, and that will impress
Adcoms.

Stop doing stuff to impress us. If you're approaching this process as a set of boxes to check, you'll never be a doctor.

That’s not true. There are definitely boxes that need to be checked. Why else would schools mention what percent of their students were involved in clinical volunteering, research, etc. on the MSAR?

I think the point is that you find things you enjoy within the “boxes.”
Don’t like serving food at the soup kitchen? Tutor for free instead.

I enjoyed life and did not get accepted. Checked the boxes a couple cycles later and viola, accepted.

To OP: I never mentioned any of my hobbies on my primary or secondary applications, but I discussed them significantly during my interviews. Everything turned out okay.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That’s not true. There are definitely boxes that need to be checked. Why else would schools mention what percent of their students were involved in clinical volunteering, research, etc. on the MSAR?

I think the point is that you find things you enjoy within the “boxes.”
Don’t like serving food at the soup kitchen? Tutor for free instead.

I enjoyed life and did not get accepted. Checked the boxes a couple cycles later and viola, accepted.

To OP: I never mentioned any of my hobbies on my primary or secondary applications, but I discussed them significantly during my interviews. Everything turned out okay.

There are definitely boxes to check, but I think goro’s point is that you shouldn’t be doing something just to check that box. All of my volunteering were things I wanted to do anyway and that I enjoyed.

 

[RNtoMD87]

There are definitely boxes to check, but I think goro’s point is that you shouldn’t be doing something just to check that box. All of my volunteering were things I wanted to do anyway and that I enjoyed.

That's why I'm doing autopsy intern on the side. I always wanted to. I just don't know if it will count for anything. I didn't realize volunteer work only counted if it was for the living. I felt l was doing something good for the victims families. My girlfriend lost her brother at 18, and just got his autopsy results and learned a lot more about the incident, and it brought her peace.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's why I'm doing autopsy intern on the side. I always wanted to. I just don't know if it will count for anything. I didn't realize volunteer work only counted if it was for the living. I felt l was doing something good for the victims families. My girlfriend lost her brother at 18, and just got his autopsy results and learned a lot more about the incident, and it brought her peace.

I volunteered at a funeral home helping prepare the bodies for a traditional Jewish burial. Definitely counts, though I still had volunteering that directly served living people as well.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Do you like killing people for fun? If not then talkin about your hobbies shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Do you like killing people for fun? If not then talkin about your hobbies shouldn’t be a problem.

Guess I see why dexter dropped medschool for blood spatter analyst

 

[Promethean]

But why shouldn't people with life experience "non-traditional" be looked at before people who went to high school... went to college... did a little volunteer work.. then applied to med school? How do they even KNOW they want to be a doctor? I wasn't even sure if I wanted to be in the medical field. All I knew is I like helping people. It took being a nurse for a couple years, talking to many doctors, quite a few that had been nurses (and one, Dr. Russell who had started from being a CNA and worked his way all the way up to be an oncologist).

You seem to be saying "It took me longer to figure things out, so that means that I'm more sure than someone who knew from the get go and took the straight shot." Understand that from another perspective, that is flipped on its head. How do they know that this isn't just the next reinvention for you, and not necessarily the last?

I get you. I was nontrad, and an RN, as well. You are going to get your shot to make your case why you should get one of those rare and much sought after seats. Don't worry about whether you are looked at first, second, or last. Just make the best case that you can for yourself and let it speak for itself. You'll get to do it, or you won't. If not, you'll try again or you won't. Same as every other applicant. Your history is going to help you to stand out in ways that your traditional classmates will envy... and at the same time, they are going to have strengths that you lack. The sooner you can stop worrying about competing with others and the more you make the race be against yourself toward your optimum potential, the closer you will get to hitting it.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

There are definitely boxes to check, but I think goro’s point is that you shouldn’t be doing something just to check that box. All of my volunteering were things I wanted to do anyway and that I enjoyed.

I see what you’re saying, in fact I think we are making the same point. In an ideal world, everyone would enjoy all of their volunteer activities because of ubiquitous altruism- but that’s not the case.

For the sake of admissions, even if one doesn’t like an activity, one should stick with it for a little while (100hrs) so one can speak about it and say what he/she got out of it.

In OPs situation, I wouldn’t think of it as pimping your hobbies for admissions. Just state the facts about what you do and why you do it, don’t worry about juxtaposing it to medicine. Adcoms just want to make sure you’re not a robot.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For the sake of admissions, even if one doesn’t like an activity, one should stick with it for a little while (100hrs) so one can speak about it and say what he/she got out of it.

I actually disagree with this (though I agree with the rest of your post). You don’t have to list anything you don’t want to on your amcas. If you try something a few times and really don’t like it, I think you should ditch it for something else. Why waste time doing something you hate and won’t be able to talk about convincingly?