URM Advantage in Medicine

[Dope ish]

Im writing a paper, Of the three professional schools (med-school, Dental school, Optometry school) Which one gives the most consideration to URM applicants?

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[NontradCA]

This thread will be groundbreaking.

 

[Corriefangirl]

Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.

 

[cookiemonsters]

Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.

That's not the concern at all... a good chunk for the 60% of people who don't get in ANYWHERE each year would would probably do just fine in medical school too. The concern of URM is about meritocracy... URM's taking the seat of an ORM with with higher stats, better EC's, etc.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.

Did you grow up poor and/or underserved?

 

[Corriefangirl]

Did you grow up poor and/or underserved?

Yep. Still managed a 33 mcat and 3.5 from a top 10 notoriously difficult undergrad. But none of that matters because I'm black and my stats aren't as good as all the orms.

 

[deleted480308]

In

 

[Temperature101]

Can a mod close this thread? because it's going to derail into URM vs ORM thread.

 

[TheShaker]

Yep. Still managed a 33 mcat and 3.5 from a top 10 notoriously difficult undergrad. But none of that matters because I'm black and my stats aren't as good as all the orms.

What do you know, I grew up under the same conditions and have good stats as well but I guess I shouldn't get any advantage because, you know, I'm Asian.

 

[SunsFun]

That's not the concern at all... a good chunk for the 60% of people who don't get in ANYWHERE each year would would probably do just fine in medical school too. The concern of URM is about meritocracy... URM's taking the seat of an ORM with with higher stats, better EC's, etc.

Too bad the URM population prefers to be treated by URM doctor. Who also are much more willing to go work in underserved areas.

 

[ChemEngMD]

How much of a benefit is it in society or in applying to medical school? Cause if you want to talk societal, it is much harder to even get to the point where you can apply to medical school as a Black, Latino or Native American (i.e. getting to college and being able to have all of the connections and pull the strings to be ready to apply). When it comes time to apply for med school, URMs on average have lower stats, but that is because there aren't as many of us applying in the first place.

The AMCAS data shows that COMBINED (Black, Latino, Native) over a 3 year period, there were only 21,000 of us applying...over that same period there were over 80,000 Whites and nearly 30,000 Asians. Our acceptance rates were still the lowest though ~44% for URMs, 44.5% for Asians, and 47.7% for Whites. So you're talking about a subset of the population (URMs) that make up ~30+% of the population only making up ~16% of the applicants. If they are trying to make classes representative of their local populations then they may be shooting to have 20-30% of their class be URM, but if only 10-15% of their applicants are URM then they will inherently have to dip a little further into the pool and give some applicants who may be statistically lower, but still have a great overall app, a shot.

So the answer is yes, on average URMs have overall lower stats, and thus some students get accepted with lower than usual stats, but Whites and Asians still make up the majority of the applicants and still have higher acceptance rates. This isn't even taking into account the schools in PR that account for probably 1/4 of the Latino acceptances in the country each year or the HBCU universities that account for a decent percentage of the accepted Blacks. Both of these schools have on average lower statistics because they have different missions (i.e. finding physicians that will serve underserved communities, be it in Puerto Rico or urban settings). If you were to remove some of those statistical outliers you would see a much lower acceptance rate for URMs and probably higher stats for the students who do get accepted.

Don't believe the hype.


^^I'm going to re-post this same post I made in another URM thread every time someone decides to bring the issue up...do some independent research

 

[deleted480308]

I prefer hot doctors...can we get a program for hot doctors?

 

[cookiemonsters]

Too bad the URM population prefers to be treated by URM doctor. Who also are much more willing to go work in underserved areas.

Blanket statement. Most URM medical students are not from poor upbringings... they are largely from affluent backgrounds, like most of their ORM classmates. If medical schools truly want students to work in poor or underserved areas, they should look for students who grew up in these areas - regardless of race.

But as LizzyM said in another thread, medical schools are REQUIRED by the LCME to have racial diversity in their class. They are not required to have socioeconomic diversity. I don't hold it against URM's for taking advantage of unfair selection criteria to get into medical school - I would do the same in their shoes. I blame the LCME for instituting myopic selection criteria it in the first place.

 

[deleted480308]

Chemengmd, it's a good post and you should post it everytime someone pulls a "zomg, but our seats are stolen!!!"

But in the interest of good statistics, don't forget that when equalized for identical stats, that black applicants get accepted at a higher rate than all other recorded racial groups

 

[Plue00]

 

[ChemEngMD]

Blanket statement. Most URM medical students are not from poor upbringings... they are largely from affluent backgrounds, like most of their ORM classmates. If medical schools truly want students to work in poor or underserved areas, they should look for students who grew up in these areas - regardless of race.

As LizzyM said in another thread, medical schools are REQUIRED by the LCME to have racial diversity in their class. They are not required to have socioeconomic diversity. I don't blame URM's for taking advantage of unfair selection criteria - I blame the LCME for instituting it in the first place.

REGARDLESS OF THEIR SES BACKGROUND: URMs are far more likely to go work in underserved communities where they look like their patient population. This is not to say that white doctors do not do similarly, but when they do, it is more likely Rural Medicine...some schools are more concerned about the urban poor and want doctors who will work in those communities.

Look at someone like Cory Booker or Barack Obama...both raised in middle class to affluent neighborhoods and both went to work in the hood because they felt the need to help out their people. It doesn't matter where you've grown up, if you are a racial minority you have certain experiences in common with other racial minorities.

 

[SunsFun]

What do you know, I grew up under the same conditions and have good stats as well but I guess I shouldn't get any advantage because, you know, I'm Asian.

I have no axe to grind here but as an Asian did you experience:

counselors hinting that you may want to reconsider taking harder classes since, you know, math is too hard for you people;

your peers thinking that you're at of your mind when you told them you want to be a doctor,

learning early on from society and media that your kind doesn't normally pursue those kinds of job (incapable of it),

test anxiety after internalizing that you're not supposed to be good at those tests,

discomfort going to class where not a single one of your classmates shares your culture and your experiences?

 

[ChemEngMD]

Chemengmd, it's a good post and you should post it everytime someone pulls a "zomg, but our seats are stolen!!!"

But in the interest of good statistics, don't forget that when equalized for identical stats, that black applicants get accepted at a higher rate than all other recorded racial groups

But that lies in the fact that the n is so small. I'm not trying to be pretentious but I'm a little bit of a stats nerd...what kind of normalization are we talking about? Do you have a link that shows this? I'd love to see it.

 

[ChemEngMD]

What do you know, I grew up under the same conditions and have good stats as well but I guess I shouldn't get any advantage because, you know, I'm Asian.

What nationality? Some schools consider Vietnamese and Pacific Islander to be URM.

 

[iave9963]

Blanket statement. Most URM medical students are not from poor upbringings... they are largely from affluent backgrounds, like most of their ORM classmates. If medical schools truly want students to work in poor or underserved areas, they should look for students who grew up in these areas - regardless of race.
.

Any stats to back this up?

 

[aamrys]

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.

yo también

 

[ChemEngMD]

Any stats to back this up?

iave, you didn't know that we were all Carlton Banks type brothers?

 

[Arbor Vitae]

.

 

[TheShaker]

I have no axe to grind here but as an Asian did you experience:

1. counselors hinting that you may want to reconsider taking harder classes since, you know, math is too hard for you people;

2. your peers thinking that you're at of your mind when you told them you want to be a doctor,

3. learning early on from society and media that your kind doesn't normally pursue those kinds of job (incapable of it),

4. test anxiety after internalizing that you're not supposed to be good at those tests,

5. discomfort going to class where not a single one of your classmates shares your culture and your experiences?

I'm not quite sure where you're getting some of these stereotypes from but here goes.

1. In elementary school, yes, and surprisingly enough, college. But they're just a few bad eggs.

2. Well, the stereotype is most Asians go on to be doctors...cue Family Guy clip.

3. Same as 2.

4. Asians are supposed to be "smart" and "overachieving".

5. I was bullied because I was Asian and couldn't speak English all throughout elementary school and in some parts of middle school and high school. So yeah, at some points I did feel that way until I got better at English and hit my growth spurt.

I think you're trying to adapt the struggles that black people go through to Asians but I don't think they're equivalent and perhaps that is your point. I still think that living below poverty level with uneducated parents for my whole life is still a better measure of "impoverished and underserved" than "I'm black".

What nationality? Some schools consider Vietnamese and Pacific Islander to be URM.

Vietnamese, but we're considered East Asian. I'm not familiar with any school like that.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Vietnamese, but we're considered East Asian. I'm not familiar with any school like that.

http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/c...iversity/aboutus/Pages/Diversity-Numbers.aspx

UColorado...61 URMs in their class entering 2012....16 Vietnamese and 2 Pacific Islanders...maybe look into applying there? Good school, just very expensive out of state.

 

[Plue00]

Any stats to back this up?

Hate to actually post in this thread, but it seems like the argument is being too one sided.

I've actually written a couple of papers about AA with a couple of professors and about 91% of blacks that get into good college are from affluent colleges. I'll try to find the credible sources for you guys.

You guys probably don't have the time to watch it, but Lee Bollinger (Columbia University president) and Julian Bond (ex-chairman of NAACP) admit that most blacks going into higher education are not poor or middle class. They argue for AA in other ways.

Their opponents, (a black guy) and a dean from NYU are against AA.

http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action

 

[ChemEngMD]

Hate to actually post in this thread, but it seems like the argument is being too one sided.

I've actually written a couple of papers about AA with a couple of professors and about 91% of blacks that get into good college are from affluent colleges. I'll try to find the credible sources for you guys.

You guys probably don't have the time to watch it, but Lee Bollinger (Columbia University president) and Julian Bond (ex-chairman of NAACP) admit that most blacks going into higher education are not poor or middle class. They argue for AA in other ways.

Their opponents, (a black guy) and a dean from NYU are against AA.

http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action

What constitutes a good college? Are you talking Ivy League only? I would argue that from my personal experiences with private schools (not ivy, but pretty top tier, comprable to NYU) the majority of the URMs on campus were from lower to middle class backgrounds and were only there because they had full financial aid support...there were basically no middle class students of any race...there were rich students, financial aid students and international students and most URMs fell into the financial aid category

 

[SunsFun]

I am sorry to hear about your experience and I am sure if you speak about them in a meaningful way the ADCOM will take it in consideration. I do believe that a compelling story is more powerful and helpful in admission than simply clicking on URM checkbox.

Now, the reason I brought up those experience is not to say that Asians do not face any discrimination or additional hurdles but to show that what all URMs (regardless of their SES) have to go through even before they can apply to med school is a very unique experience in this country. ADCOM chooses to recognize this and take in consideration.

Edit: this is in response to TheShaker.

 

[iave9963]

iave, you didn't know that we were all Carlton Banks type brothers?

Seems to be the new excuse. If you have a problem with the URM and not the system, then you have a problem with URMs, not the system.

Hate to actually post in this thread, but it seems like the argument is being too one sided.

I've actually written a couple of papers about AA with a couple of professors and about 91% of blacks that get into good college are from affluent colleges. I'll try to find the credible sources for you guys.

You guys probably don't have the time to watch it, but Lee Bollinger (Columbia University president) and Julian Bond (ex-chairman of NAACP) admit that most blacks going into higher education are not poor or middle class. They argue for AA in other ways.

Their opponents, (a black guy) and a dean from NYU are against AA.

http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action

Weasel wording? Until I see stats, just sounds like personal opinions.

 

[Plue00]

What constitutes a good college? Are you talking Ivy League only? I would argue that from my personal experiences with private schools (not ivy, but pretty top tier, comprable to NYU) the majority of the URMs on campus were from lower to middle class backgrounds and were only there because they had full financial aid support...there were basically no middle class students of any race...there were rich students, financial aid students and international students and most URMs fell into the financial aid category

That's the problem. You never researched this stuff and have a very limited knowledge of this from only your personal experiences. You'd be surprised by the number of people in college (of any race) that claim they are poor but actually aren't. Anyways, if you want cold hard facts from reliable people (NAACP chairman, Columbia President, NYU Deans), then watch the video.

I only said good colleges because those are the ones that usually lack URMs to begin with. URMs usually don't have any trouble getting into average to below average schools (colleges, not med schools if anyone is confused).

 

[Plue00]

Seems to be the new excuse. If you have a problem with the URM and not the system, then you have a problem with URMs, not the system.



Weasel wording? Until I see stats, just sounds like personal opinions.

I posted a video of people who actually know what they're talking about. That should keep you put for a while. Or you can ignore my post and carry on blindly

 

[LizzyM]

That's not the concern at all... a good chunk for the 60% of people who don't get in ANYWHERE each year would would probably do just fine in medical school too. The concern of URM is about meritocracy... URM's taking the seat of an ORM with with higher stats, better EC's, etc.

Above a certain threshold (good enough to have a high likelihood of passing the boards & being licensed), do applicants with higher stats make better medical students? do they make better doctors?

What are "better" ECs? As long as someone has tested their interest in a career in medicine and has demonstrated a willingness to engage in a career in the service industry (because medicine is a service industry), do some ECs predict better performance in medical school than other ECs? Do some ECs predict that one will be a better doctor than other ECs?

Why do some people think that someone less deserving is taking a seat that is, by right, theirs? What gives them the idea that they are better suited for medical school and the practice of medicine particularly among minority patients?

 

[ChemEngMD]

That's the problem. You never researched this stuff and have a very limited knowledge of this from only your personal experiences. You'd be surprised by the number of people in college (of any race) that claim they are poor but actually aren't. Anyways, if you want cold hard facts from reliable people (NAACP chairman, Columbia President, NYU Deans), then watch the video.

I only said good colleges because those are the ones that usually lack URMs to begin with. URMs usually don't have any trouble getting into average to below average schools (colleges, not med schools if anyone is confused).

I'll watch it after I work on some of my secondary essays

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY[/YOUTUBE]

While I do that then you should consider educating yourself on White Privilege.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Above a certain threshold (good enough to have a high likelihood of passing the boards & being licensed), do applicants with higher stats make better medical students? do they make better doctors?

What are "better" ECs? As long as someone has tested their interest in a career in medicine and has demonstrated a willingness to engage in a career in the service industry (because medicine is a service industry), do some ECs predict better performance in medical school than other ECs? Do some ECs predict that one will be a better doctor than other ECs?

Why do some people think that someone less deserving is taking a seat that is, by right, theirs? What gives them the idea that they are better suited for medical school and the practice of medicine particularly among minority patients?

Co-sign X 1,000,000 ...the sense of entitlement is crazy with some of these applicants.

 

[deleted480308]

Gotta admit, I thought it would take longer than two pages to hear "white privilege"

 

[iave9963]

I posted a video of people who actually know what they're talking about. That should keep you put for a while. Or you can ignore my post and carry on blindly

I skimmed through the video and no where were any type of stats mentioned regarding our discussion, just a lot of personal opinion. If someone makes a statement and I ask for data backing up that statement and ignore things that don't, I'm "carrying on blindly"?

 

[Plue00]

I'll watch it after I work on some of my secondary essays

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY[/YOUTUBE]

While I do that then you should consider educating yourself on White Privilege.

I've seen this and I've actually taken classes that have discussed this issue many times. Kids toys are usually white people, bandaids are match white people better, white people can speak up in a crowd but minorities can't.

Also... I'm not white.

 

[Plue00]

I skimmed through the video and no where were any type of stats mentioned regarding our discussion, just a lot of personal opinion. If someone makes a statement and I ask for data backing up that statement and ignore things that don't, I'm "carrying on blindly"?

Skimmed a 2 hour video in 5 minutes? Okay

 

[ChemEngMD]

Gotta admit, I thought it would take longer than two pages to hear "white privilege"

lulz...someone was bringing in videos so I felt the need to show some Tim Wise...love that guy haha

 

[TheShaker]

I am sorry to hear about your experience and I am sure if you speak about them in a meaningful way the ADCOM will take it in consideration. I do believe that a compelling story is more powerful and helpful in admission than simply clicking on URM checkbox.

Now, the reason I brought up those experience is not to say that Asians do not face any discrimination or additional hurdles but to show that what all URMs (regardless of their SES) have to go through even before they can apply to med school is a very unique experience in this country. ADCOM chooses to recognize this and take in consideration.

Edit: this is in response to TheShaker.

I'm not doubting that URMs have to jump through hurdles in life to apply. As you said in your post, both URMs and SES disadvantaged non-URMs have to go through struggles to get their education and get to the point of application. I think the problem is that, as you said, I can always describe the conditions that I grew up in to the adcoms and they'll evaluate it based on whatever factors they find important. This sounds like a largely subjective process, it will resonate with some and be discounted by others. I have to make a convincing case and then hope that they agree with what I have to say. On the other hand, URMs can tell the same story more objectively. A check in the box is certainly more objective and can't be disagreed with. That means that I'm still having to make my case while the 300k/year CEO's son who happens to be black will have the same or greater advantage. Furthermore, compare him to the black guy who grew up in South Central with crackhead parents. Of course, the latter will have any experience to talk about, but the former having an advantage seems absurd to me. At least that's how I see it. I'll admit that I'm roughly familiar with the information about URMs out there so I could be completely wrong.

 

[iave9963]

I'll watch it after I work on some of my secondary essays

While I do that then you should consider educating yourself on White Privilege.

Don't bother, it's nothing you have not heard before and no different than the hundreds of other youtube videos about race/AA. Pump out those secondary essays.

Skimmed a 2 hour video in 5 minutes? Okay

Hence the word " skimmed and if you have nothing more to add to the discussion, I guess I'll bid you guys adieu. About a week until I start med school and Brusters is calling my name. ChemEng see you and the family at the country club later.

 

[cookiemonsters]

My lasting take away from this and every other URM thread is that the people who are most likely to discuss this issue are also the most likely to be set in their opinions.

 

[TheShaker]

sometimes people blame race when they are bitter about reapplying

I'm not blaming race. Her (his?) post struck a nerve because she already swayed the opinion of the people who actually matter, the people who let her into medical school. I just hated the fact that she had to make up a fake enemy to respond to even though this wasn't even the OP's original question. I say fake enemy because I still have never seen anybody on SDN say something like that directly. I've seen people disagree with URM policies but I've never seen anybody discount the abilities of URMs themselves. Perhaps I don't follow URM threads enough but that's how my experience has been.

Plus, weren't you a reapplicant yourself? It seems a bit silly that you're making fun of me for being one...

 

[NontradCA]

I'm not doubting that URMs have to jump through hurdles in life to apply. As you said in your post, both URMs and SES disadvantaged non-URMs have to go through struggles to get their education and get to the point of application. I think the problem is that, as you said, I can always describe the conditions that I grew up in to the adcoms and they'll evaluate it based on whatever factors they find important. This sounds like a largely subjective process, it will resonate with some and be discounted by others. I have to make a convincing case and then hope that they agree with what I have to say. On the other hand, URMs can tell the same story more objectively. A check in the box is certainly more objective and can't be disagreed with. That means that I'm still having to make my case while the 300k/year CEO's son who happens to be black will have the same or greater advantage. Furthermore, compare him to the black guy who grew up in South Central with crackhead parents. Of course, the latter will have any experience to talk about, but the former having an advantage seems absurd to me. At least that's how I see it. I'll admit that I'm roughly familiar with the information about URMs out there so I could be completely wrong.

I know right? All those blick sons of CEOs stealing medical school seats from the hard working class.

 

[TheShaker]

I know right? All those blick sons of CEOs stealing medical school seats from the hard working class.

If you'd like to take a phrase from my post and respond to it out of context then fine.

 

[NontradCA]

If you'd like to take a phrase from my post and respond to it out of context then fine.

So you're admitting your point is just hyperbolic bs?

 

[SunsFun]

I'm not doubting that URMs have to jump through hurdles in life to apply. As you said in your post, both URMs and SES disadvantaged non-URMs have to go through struggles to get their education and get to the point of application. I think the problem is that, as you said, I can always describe the conditions that I grew up in to the adcoms and they'll evaluate it based on whatever factors they find important. This sounds like a largely subjective process, it will resonate with some and be discounted by others. I have to make a convincing case and then hope that they agree with what I have to say. On the other hand, URMs can tell the same story more objectively. A check in the box is certainly more objective and can't be disagreed with. That means that I'm still having to make my case while the 300k/year CEO's son who happens to be black will have the same or greater advantage. Furthermore, compare him to the black guy who grew up in South Central with crackhead parents. Of course, the latter will have any experience to talk about, but the former having an advantage seems absurd to me. At least that's how I see it. I'll admit that I'm roughly familiar with the information about URMs out there so I could be completely wrong.

I don't see how you determine that by simply checking the box URM has the same or even greater advantage than someone else with a compelling story.

My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.

Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.

 

[Temperature101]

I don't see how you determine that by simply checking the box URM has the same or even greater advantage than someone else with a compelling story.

My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.

Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.

It's easy to see the black guy/gal as the issue...

 

[cookiemonsters]

My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.

Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.

I think the argument boils down to: if you have an URM from a good upbringing with average stats vs a ORM 'bootstrap' applicant from a modest upbringing with slightly above average stats (assuming EC's, LOR's, and quality of writing in the application are the same), which one is the adcom gonna choose to interview with the limited number of interview slots available?