US NEWS IM Rankings

[Sturtz]

Could someone please post the entire latest (2004) USNEWS Internal Medicine Rankings? Thx

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[lurkerboy]

I'm reading through their criteria , I don't get the feeling that these numbers mean as much for residency. ie: what does mortality have to do with training programs? Maybe they just get sicker patients?

 

[johnd]

Here is 2003, I think this is the most recent:

1. Harvard University (MA)
2. Johns Hopkins University (MD)
3. University of California?San Francisco
4. Washington University in St. Louis
5. University of Pennsylvania
6. University of Washington
7. Duke University (NC)
8. University of Michigan?Ann Arbor
9. U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center?Dallas
10. Yale University (CT)
11. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons (NY)
12. Stanford University (CA)
13. University of California?Los Angeles (Geffen)
14. University of Alabama?Birmingham
University of Chicago
16. Mayo Medical School (MN)
17. University of California?San Diego
18. University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)
University of North Carolina?Chapel Hill
Vanderbilt University (TN)
21. Cornell University (Weill) (NY)
Emory University (GA)
Mount Sinai School of Medicine (NY)
Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL)
University of Virginia
26. University of Rochester (NY)

 

[tofurious]

You listed the med school rankings. He's talking about Internal Medicine for which no list exists (US News only has Best Hospitals overall and Best Hospitals for certain IM specialties including Cards, Chest, Rheum, GI, and Heme/Onc).

 

[johnd]

Nope wrong. These are the IM rankings. Someone in the Pre-Allopathic [ MD ] forum posted their password under a thread titled "US news" so you can look for yourself.

It is located under medical specialties section which is in the graduate school ranking section. It's not in the best hospitals section.

 

[tofurious]

"Specialty rankings: The rankings are based solely on ratings by deans and senior faculty at peer SCHOOLS. Medical school deans and senior faculty identified up to 10 SCHOOLS offering the best programs in each specialty area. The 10 receiving the highest number of nominations appear here."

 

[cbc]

This is the usnews rankings for IM, not medical "schools," even though it does say "school." The "school" you are referring to is usnews's way of saying "institution." They are assuming that no community hospital is going to make it to the top 10 in IM or any specialty, at least not by reputation. Also, the word "school" will lump together all the affiliates as 1 university. You wont see cedars-sinai separated from ucla on these specialty rankings, although you will in the best hospitals rankings.

Originally posted by tofurious
"Specialty rankings: The rankings are based solely on ratings by deans and senior faculty at peer SCHOOLS. Medical school deans and senior faculty identified up to 10 SCHOOLS offering the best programs in each specialty area. The 10 receiving the highest number of nominations appear here."

 

[tofurious]

So, please enlighten me what it means by Harvard Medical School? Is it MGH? BWH? BIDMC? Or "lumped together" as you suggest? Perhaps an average of the three affiliated yet INDEPENDENT IM programs by multiplying reputational score x individual hospital discharge as a proportion of the total hospital discharge from all three Harvard affiliated hospitals?

Oh, and I never realized that Harvard Medical School was where they run the IM residencies out of ([email protected] if you click on your SPECIALTY school link).

This is so dumb it's funny.

 

[Da Vinci2]

I have never seen IM ranking. I guess if one were to have IM ranking, one way of doing that is to use USNEWS best hospitals ranking and tabulate the overall score for each hospital than rank them. So IM ranking would be the sum of ranking in Endo/GI/Cards/Pulm/Nephro/Heme/Onc...etc, taking into account how many section each hospital is ranked in. Its mathmatically doable, but I don't have that much time on my hands. In the end, it seems that its the word of mouth rep that matters.

 

[johnd]

Originally posted by tofurious
So, please enlighten me what it means by Harvard Medical School? Is it MGH? BWH? BIDMC? Or "lumped together" as you suggest? Perhaps an average of the three affiliated yet INDEPENDENT IM programs by multiplying reputational score x individual hospital discharge as a proportion of the total hospital discharge from all three Harvard affiliated hospitals?

Oh, and I never realized that Harvard Medical School was where they run the IM residencies out of ([email protected] if you click on your SPECIALTY school link).

This is so dumb it's funny.

Tofurious,

The original poster asked for the US News Internal Medicine Rankings. That is what I posted. I did not post the US News rankings of medical schools. As you posted yourself, these are the top IM "programs" identified by medical school deans and senior faculty.

I agree that this is not explicitly a list of the top IM residency training programs. However, if there was a list of top residency training programs it would look a lot like that list.

 

[lurkerboy]

My interpretation of this is that this list is a rating of the programs offered at each of these schools for preparing students to enter each of these specialties. So HMS's internal medicine curriculum is better than Hopkins, etc.. You might indirectly infer that the residency programs affiliated with the respective institution will also be good, but with Harvard and its 3-4 programs, this is not possible.

CLEARLY this is not ranking RESIDENCY PROGRAMS!!!

As I posted earlier, their hospital-specialty section isn't a great ranking of programs either.

Originally posted by tofurious
"Specialty rankings: The rankings are based solely on ratings by deans and senior faculty at peer SCHOOLS. Medical school deans and senior faculty identified up to 10 SCHOOLS offering the best programs in each specialty area. The 10 receiving the highest number of nominations appear here."

 

[tofurious]

Lurkerboy, you were right from your very first post. However, you can clearly see from above posts that there are people who strongly believe that this is a list of residency institutions instead of med schools. I am also amazed at the complex explanations on how the schools listed represent residency programs.

The OP was obviously asking about residency programs (in an IM RESIDENCY forum), and it is wrong for those unclear on what this list is actually RANKING to mislead the OP and those who will read this post in the future to believe that US News produces such a list. It's previous posts such as this that have perpetuated the mythical existence of such a list.

 

[johnd]

I clearly stated in my last post that this is not a list of residency training programs. But I also don't believe that this is "a rating of the programs offered at each of these schools for preparing students to enter each of these specialties."

I think they asked deans and senior faculty to rate the best internal medicine programs and the people who responded most likely took into account all kinds of factors: the IM faculty, the IM residency training program, the research at that particular institution, etc.

Do you really think that deans and senior faculty are familiar enough with the IM curriculum for medical students at various medical schools to compare them to each other?

This list is a ranking of the reputation of the IM departments at US medical schools. I think that this list is pretty applicable to residency training because the top 10 places on that list are remarkable similar to the supposed top 10 residency programs that have been discussed numerous times in this forum.

 

[lurkerboy]

I guess we have to agree to disagree but it is pretty clear to me that this has more to do with medical school training than residency!

Originally posted by johnd
I clearly stated in my last post that this is not a list of residency training programs. But I also don't believe that this is "a rating of the programs offered at each of these schools for preparing students to enter each of these specialties."

I think they asked deans and senior faculty to rate the best internal medicine programs and the people who responded most likely took into account all kinds of factors: the IM faculty, the IM residency training program, the research at that particular institution, etc.

Do you really think that deans and senior faculty are familiar enough with the IM curriculum for medical students at various medical schools to compare them to each other?

This list is a ranking of the reputation of the IM departments at US medical schools. I think that this list is pretty applicable to residency training because the top 10 places on that list are remarkable similar to the supposed top 10 residency programs that have been discussed numerous times in this forum.

 

[cbc]

Before you try to make fun of someone, try to learn how to read. Did I even mention the word residency? NO. Did the OP say residency? NO. OP said, please post verbatim "latest (2004) USNEWS Internal Medicine Rankings."

I said INSTITUTION. I dont think Usnews ranked this based on medical school or residency. As I've said, it's INSTITUTION. Is there formal clinical training on a medical specialty called AIDS or Drug/Alcohol Abuse in medical school rotation or residency? No. The fact that UCSF is ranked #1 in AIDS probably has more to do with the fact that is has a lot of AIDS research, and nothing to do with medical or residency training on it. The fact that Harvard is ranked #1 on IM there is probably MGH, BW, BI are all clumped as one for its reputation. That's what I meant and said. Now before you call anyone dumb or laugh at someone, learn some english.

Originally posted by tofurious
So, please enlighten me what it means by Harvard Medical School? Is it MGH? BWH? BIDMC? Or "lumped together" as you suggest? Perhaps an average of the three affiliated yet INDEPENDENT IM programs by multiplying reputational score x individual hospital discharge as a proportion of the total hospital discharge from all three Harvard affiliated hospitals?

Oh, and I never realized that Harvard Medical School was where they run the IM residencies out of ([email protected] if you click on your SPECIALTY school link).

This is so dumb it's funny.

 

[Kalel]

Egads people, there is no need to argue over this. The person who posted that list appears to be correct, there is an IM ranking list under us news best medical schools. The fact that they listed Harvard as no. 1 as opposed to a specific Harvard program shows how useless the list is though. Here is a link to the top 3, you have to pay to get the rest.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/medsp03_brief.php

 

[DrKnowItAll]

http://www.residentphysician.com/Medicine_rankings.htm

The above link is the NIH ranking of IM programs for 2002.

 

[cbc]

The list in which you are referring that one receives with payment is the one johnd posted previously. Before I get blasted or clowned, I'd like to say I "think" that's the list johnd posted and I am not talking about residency or medical school nor do I care. I am just trying to help clarify according to my best knowledge and sorry if I am not knowledgeable I am only trying to help.

Originally posted by Kalel
Egads people, there is no need to argue over this. The person who posted that list appears to be correct, there is an IM ranking list under us news best medical schools. The fact that they listed Harvard as no. 1 as opposed to a specific Harvard program shows how useless the list is though. Here is a link to the top 3, you have to pay to get the rest.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/medsp03_brief.php

 

[Docxter]

Originally posted by DrKnowItAll
http://www.residentphysician.com/Medicine_rankings.htm

The above link is the NIH ranking of IM programs for 2002.

The NIH ranking you have linked is the ranking of "medical schools". The harvard hospitals are not considered "medical schools" and are not included in the list. You have to look under funding for "independent institutions" to find them. Hospitals combined, HMS has nearly three times the amount of Johns Hopkins. MGH itself has more than any other hospital in the country. It doesn't matter too much anyway, but just for some clarification for people who are wondering how come Harvard is ranked at number 44 with only $19 mil.

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by Docxter
HMS has nearly three times the amount of Johns Hopkins.

Yes. Harvard has a patient base of over 4 million people and 17 teaching hospitals. Hopkins draws on a patient pop of less than a million and has only 2 major affiliates and 3-4 smaller community hospital affiliates.

MGH itself has more than any other hospital in the country.

Thats only true for INDEPENDENT hospitals.

Hopkins is an integrated institutions where the med school and the hospital are run by the same organization.

Unlike Harvard, Hopkins doesnt report the individual hospital grants, it lumps the medical school + hospital together (387 million). MGH gets about 250 million a year by itself.

Med school list (no independent hospitals): http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl02.htm

Independent hospital list (excludes Penn, UWash, Hopkins, etc):
http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/trends/hospital02.htm

Institutional list:
http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/trends/rnk02all1to100.htm

Internal Medicine list:
http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medicine01.htm