us news primary care rankings?

[zurned]

What does the US news primary care rankings mean? What exactly determines the ranking that US news gives in this category? And why is it that so many schools that are high on research rankings are unranked in the primary care category?

 

[SkylineMD]

basically it boils down to how much funding/grants you receive which boost your research rankings and I believe its the number of primary care physicians produced by each school that gives you the primary care ranking

 

[DropkickMurphy]

The reason for the second point you make is because many of the "research" schools are simply that- known for their research and they select for people who lean towards careers in that area. You're not going to see many primary care docs with lots of research experience simply because they tend to be two very different mindsets held by people pursuing each respectively.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

Sorry, what exactly fits under the umbrella of "primary care"?

 

[LTrain1]

Sorry, what exactly fits under the umbrella of "primary care"?

usually im, peds, and fp. I want to specialize so I stay away from primary care rankings because that's not what I want to do. A d.o. school is top 10 primary care so that should tell you something.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

And what precisely does it tell us? *waits patiently*

 

[MollyMalone]

It's late and I'm tired, but by my cursory examination of both rankings, it appears to me that of the top 54 schools in the research rankings, 44 are also in the primary care rankings. Some are at vastly different spots, some are at about the same place. This would lead me to believe that the disparity between research schools and primary care schools is perhaps not all that large.

For those keeping score at home, of the top 54 schools ranked in research, those unranked in primary care are:

Stanford (8)
Pritzker (19)
Mayo (23)
UNC (23)
Mount Sinai (32)
NYU (32)
U Cincinnati (41)
Georgetown (46)
UC-Irvine (46)
Tulane (51)

Of those that are ranked in both, the biggest disparity appears to be for Yale (11 for research, 58 for primary care). OHSU seems to be fairly large as well (3 for primary care, 35 for research).

Disclaimer: This information may be inaccurate as I did do this very quickly. Corrections would be welcomed.

 

[LTrain1]

And what precisely does it tell us? *waits patiently*

the bottom line when people look at these rankings is the ability to get residencies. No one is under the impression that the d.o. school in the top 10 is better at getting residencies than most allopathic schools. I look at rankings for residency placement and primary care rankings are obviously not as good at telling you this.

 

[67192]

What does the US news primary care rankings mean? What exactly determines the ranking that US news gives in this category? And why is it that so many schools that are high on research rankings are unranked in the primary care category?

Go UW- #1! Woot!

LOL, not that it matters...

 

[erin682]

usually im, peds, and fp. I want to specialize so I stay away from primary care rankings because that's not what I want to do. A d.o. school is top 10 primary care so that should tell you something.

Many consider ob/gyn and emergency medicine to fall under primary care as well.

The U.S. news ranking are really not that great. Residencies don't go by them and you shouldn't either. They can be a nice guide but I wouldn't make you choice based entirely on those reports.

 

[drgoodlove]

If you go through the USNews site it will tell you how they calculate the rankings (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/about/06med_meth_brief.php). Basically, there are different weightings for primary care and research factors (like .2 vs .15) that account for the different ranks of schools. I forgot the details but you can read it yourself.

Also, a poster listed UNC above for having a research ranking and not a primary care ranking but UNC is #2 for primary care. Just to clarify.

 

[registered user]

It's late and I'm tired, but by my cursory examination of both rankings, it appears to me that of the top 54 schools in the research rankings, 44 are also in the primary care rankings. Some are at vastly different spots, some are at about the same place. This would lead me to believe that the disparity between research schools and primary care schools is perhaps not all that large.

For those keeping score at home, of the top 54 schools ranked in research, those unranked in primary care are:

Stanford (8)
Pritzker (19)
Mayo (23)
UNC (23)
Mount Sinai (32)
NYU (32)
U Cincinnati (41)
Georgetown (46)
UC-Irvine (46)
Tulane (51)

Of those that are ranked in both, the biggest disparity appears to be for Yale (11 for research, 58 for primary care). OHSU seems to be fairly large as well (3 for primary care, 35 for research).

Disclaimer: This information may be inaccurate as I did do this very quickly. Corrections would be welcomed.

UNC is #2 in primary care. Wish they'd go ahead and accept me

 

[drgoodlove]

Many consider ob/gyn and emergency medicine to fall under primary care as well.

Never heard of ER as primary care but Psych is commonly considered part of primary care.

 

[lanzarlaluna]

I've been told by many people that Emergency Medicine falls under Acute Primary Care. Whether that is true or not, I have no idea.

 

[tigress]

The scholarship and loan repayment programs for primary care physicians vary in their definition of primary care. All include IM, FP, and peds. Many also include OB/Gyn. I've also seen one that includes psych, but that's new to me. I've also seen that public health and preventive medicine fall under the rubric of primary care.

I've never seen EM considered primary care. None of the scholarship or loan programs consider it such.

 

[OSUdoc08]

The scholarship and loan repayment programs for primary care physicians vary in their definition of primary care. All include IM, FP, and peds. Many also include OB/Gyn. I've also seen one that includes psych, but that's new to me. I've also seen that public health and preventive medicine fall under the rubric of primary care.

I've never seen EM considered primary care. None of the scholarship or loan programs consider it such.

Actually, they do in my state.

 

[OSUdoc08]

the bottom line when people look at these rankings is the ability to get residencies. No one is under the impression that the d.o. school in the top 10 is better at getting residencies than most allopathic schools. I look at rankings for residency placement and primary care rankings are obviously not as good at telling you this.

How do you know this?

 

[Scrub MD]

Maybe they attend a high ranked PC schools because they want to go into PC. Most pre-med students would take an acceptance anywhere (me included) just to become a doc.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I am a little eery about schools that send a large amount of students to primary care (high primary care ranking). Primary care tends to be easier to get a residency in(not as desirable), so are these students going into PC because they want to or don't have scores high enough for anything else?

Maybe they attend a high ranked PC schools because they want to go into PC. Most pre-med students would take an acceptance anywhere (me included) just to become a doc.

Why are they not desireable? A majority of physicians go into this field.

I planned on going to primary care prior to applying to medical school.

 

[Scrub MD]

Why are they not desireable? A majority of physicians go into this field.

I planned on going to primary care prior to applying to medical school.

You and many others planned on primary care before you entered. I realize this. I was just throwing out ideas as to why some choose PC. Not as desirable as other specialities (to me, I shouldn't have spoke for everyone).

 

[tigress]

Actually, they do in my state.

In Oklahoma? Interesting. I've read a lot about the different programs offered for going into primary care, but I've never seen EM even mentioned. I'm considering going into EM, so it is of interest to me. Do you have a link to the info on the Oklahoma program? I'll also search for it.

 

[tigress]

You and many others planned on primary care before you entered. I realize this. I was just throwing out ideas as to why some choose PC. Not as desirable as other specialities (to me, I shouldn't have spoke for everyone).

Maybe you really mean competitive. Primary care isn't as competitive. That's because there are so many spaces open for primary care, because, as OSUdoc08, a majority of people complete residencies in the primary care fields.

But IM specialties aren't primary care. Just plain IM.

 

[OSUdoc08]

In Oklahoma? Interesting. I've read a lot about the different programs offered for going into primary care, but I've never seen EM even mentioned. I'm considering going into EM, so it is of interest to me. Do you have a link to the info on the Oklahoma program? I'll also search for it.

The loan repayment programs in Oklahoma include EM. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll see if I can get a link.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Maybe you really mean competitive. Primary care isn't as competitive. That's because there are so many spaces open for primary care, because, as OSUdoc08, a majority of people complete residencies in the primary care fields.

But IM specialties aren't primary care. Just plain IM.

Actually, EM can be pretty competitive.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You and many others planned on primary care before you entered. I realize this. I was just throwing out ideas as to why some choose PC. Not as desirable as other specialities (to me, I shouldn't have spoke for everyone).

I find EM the be much more desirable than surgery.

 

[tigress]

Actually, EM can be pretty competitive.

Yeah I know. I was talking about the tradionally accepted primary care specialties (IM, FP, peds, +/- OB/Gyn)

This is interesting. Arkansas considers general surgery to be primary care for the purpose of their rural medicine practice loans and scholarships. They include IM, FP, peds, OB/Gyn, Med/Peds, and general surgery.

 

[Scrub MD]

Maybe you really mean competitive. Primary care isn't as competitive. That's because there are so many spaces open for primary care, because, as OSUdoc08, a majority of people complete residencies in the primary care fields.

But IM specialties aren't primary care. Just plain IM.

You are right. I should have said competitive. I was thinking that something is competitive because it is desirable (for most people). I forgot about people who desire to something less competitive.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yeah I know. I was talking about the tradionally accepted primary care specialties (IM, FP, peds, +/- OB/Gyn)

This is interesting. Arkansas considers general surgery to be primary care for the purpose of their rural medicine practice loans and scholarships. They include IM, FP, peds, OB/Gyn, Med/Peds, and general surgery.

Who defines this? The traditional definition where I am from includes EM.

 

[tigress]

Who defines this? The traditional definition where I am from includes EM.

Okay, but as far as I can tell that might be the only state. No other list I've looked at includes EM. I haven't found Oklahoma yet, but I've looked at a ton of them. The national (as opposed to state) programs also do not include EM. So I would suggest that including EM is an expection rather than the rule, and therefore I wouldn't say it is part of the commonly used definition of primary care.

I have nothing against EM, mind you. As I said above, at this point I think it may be what I'd like to go into. I'm just talking about what the programs pay for. It would be great if EM were included, but as far as I can tell it very rarely is (with your example being the only one I've heard of).

 

[OSUdoc08]

Okay, but as far as I can tell that might be the only state. No other list I've looked at includes EM. I haven't found Oklahoma yet, but I've looked at a ton of them. The national (as opposed to state) programs also do not include EM. So I would suggest that including EM is an expection rather than the rule, and therefore I wouldn't say it is part of the commonly used definition of primary care.

I have nothing against EM, mind you. As I said above, at this point I think it may be what I'd like to go into. I'm just talking about what the programs pay for. It would be great if EM were included, but as far as I can tell it very rarely is (with your example being the only one I've heard of).

Agreed. Although it should be included more widely, since a large portion of the population uses EM physicians as their only provider.

 

[Scrub MD]

http://medicine.ucsf.edu/resources/guidelines/primary.html
emergency medicine (by default due to access issues in some areas; treats the top 25-45 diagnoses, but not truly primary care by definition)

http://www.uwmedicine.org/Facilities/NeighborhoodClinics/primarycare.htm
IM, FP, Ped, Ger

http://www.umassmemorial.org/ummhc/hospitals/med_center/find/pc/pcspec.cfm
IM, FP, Ped, Ger, OB

http://www.luhs.org/health/whattype.htm
IM, FP, Ped, OB

But yes it should be considered more widely as a PCP.

 

[LTrain1]

How do you know this?

come one, the usnews primary care rankings have a d.o. school top 10 and have stanford unranked. If you are under the impression that this d.o. school is better at getting any type of residencies than stanford you really need more insight into the residency selection process.

 

[LTrain1]

also, I said fp, im, and peds are primary care because that is what usnews uses for percentage of class going into primary care.

 

[OSUdoc08]

come one, the usnews primary care rankings have a d.o. school top 10 and have stanford unranked. If you are under the impression that this d.o. school is better at getting any type of residencies than stanford you really need more insight into the residency selection process.

Why don't you post Stanford's match list in primary care, and we'll compare it to TCOM's or MSU-COM's.

This might be a bit more objective than you saying Stanford has a better match list because they have a big name.

 

[LTrain1]

Why don't you post Stanford's match list in primary care, and we'll compare it to TCOM's or MSU-COM's.

This might be a bit more objective than you saying Stanford has a better match list because they have a big name.

Stanford only has 39.5% of their class going into primary care. This is not because Stanford kids have trouble getting into those prestigious fp and peds residencies. Most people at Stanford want to specialize. I really can't believe you're under the assumption that is easier to get a primary care residency from a d.o. school than Stanford. If I wanted to do primary care the reason I would look at these rankings is to find which school is going to set me up best when residency selection time comes around. I just find it funny that an unranked school in the rankings will give me a much easier time getting any primary care residencies I want than a school in the top 10.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Stanford only has 39.5% of their class going into primary care. This is not because Stanford kids have trouble getting into those prestigious fp and peds residencies. Most people at Stanford want to specialize. I really can't believe you're under the assumption that is easier to get a primary care residency from a d.o. school than Stanford. If I wanted to do primary care the reason I would look at these rankings is to find which school is going to set me up best when residency selection time comes around. I just find it funny that an unranked school in the rankings will give me a much easier time getting any primary care residencies I want than a school in the top 10.

The reason that Stanford kids don't go into primary care is that their training isn't geared towards it. At my school, we have a much greater emphasis in those areas.

While Stanford kids may not have a problem getting into the primary care residencies---they don't go into them. This is where the ranking comes from.

The schools that produce high volumes of primary care physicians are going to be ranked high---both based on the matches into such residencies AND the training emphasis placed on primary care.

 

[drgoodlove]

Stanford only has 39.5% of their class going into primary care. This is not because Stanford kids have trouble getting into those prestigious fp and peds residencies. Most people at Stanford want to specialize. I really can't believe you're under the assumption that is easier to get a primary care residency from a d.o. school than Stanford. If I wanted to do primary care the reason I would look at these rankings is to find which school is going to set me up best when residency selection time comes around. I just find it funny that an unranked school in the rankings will give me a much easier time getting any primary care residencies I want than a school in the top 10.

Why would a top primary care program, with a focus on clinical training, care if John Doe went to Stanford and spent 4 years in a lab doing research and publishing papers about something completely and totally unrelated to the residency program mission? Seems like a bad fit both the student, who according to you wants to specialize anyway, and the program. Not sure why Stanford or any other big name matters in this?

 

[LTrain1]

Why would a top primary care program, with a focus on clinical training, care if John Doe went to Stanford and spent 4 years in a lab doing research and publishing papers about something completely and totally unrelated to the residency program mission? Seems like a bad fit both the student, who according to you wants to specialize anyway, and the program. Not sure why Stanford or any other big name matters in this?

i'm sorry if you can't understand why top schools place students in better residencies. Look at the Stanford match list of those who went into primary care and see the quality of residencies they got

 

[drgoodlove]

i'm sorry if you can't understand why top schools place students in better residencies. Look at the Stanford match list of those who went into primary care and see the quality of residencies they got

My point was that it is more important what you do at Stanford or MSU or anywhere else to show your commitment to your chosen field, in this case primary care. The name is only going to get you so far and then it is going to come down to board scores, recommendations and activities that set you apart. Stanford is a great med school but an MD from Stanford is not an admissions ticket to any residency in the country. That was my point.

 

[jeffsleepy]

My point was that it is more important what you do at Stanford or MSU or anywhere else to show your commitment to your chosen field, in this case primary care. The name is only going to get you so far and then it is going to come down to board scores, recommendations and activities that set you apart. Stanford is a great med school but an MD from Stanford is not an admissions ticket to any residency in the country. That was my point.

Yeah, but I think his point was that all things being equal, the Stanford guy has a better shot. So if you're a premed saying "Ok, I'm gonna work hard in med school and show commitment to primary care no matter what," going to Stanford would give you an edge in competative residencies. It's up to you to determine whether or not that's important.

 

[drgoodlove]

Yeah, but I think his point was that all things being equal, the Stanford guy has a better shot. So if you're a premed saying "Ok, I'm gonna work hard in med school and show commitment to primary care no matter what," going to Stanford would give you an edge in competative residencies. It's up to you to determine whether or not that's important.

Point taken. Personally, if I was set on primary care I would be more concerned about the focus of the medical education and the student body. Of course, only my opinion.

 

[jeffsleepy]

I agree. And if you're really 100% sure that you'll be doing primary care that's probably more important.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yeah, but I think his point was that all things being equal, the Stanford guy has a better shot. So if you're a premed saying "Ok, I'm gonna work hard in med school and show commitment to primary care no matter what," going to Stanford would give you an edge in competative residencies. It's up to you to determine whether or not that's important.

This isn't relevant when we are discussing primary care. You would get zero points as a school that gets people into competitive residencies when ranking schools based on how well they prepare students to enter primary care.

 

[souljah1]

The whole primary care denomination thing is bogus b/c the overwhelming majority of people going into internal medicine, and to some extent ob/gyn and peds, specialize in something. If you look at our match list, we have about 25-35 out of 150'ish who go into internal medicine. How many of those poeple will actually do primary care (outpatient medicine)? Probably less than 10. Most people who go into internal medicine wind up doing fellowships in cards, gi, pulm, id, renal, etc. UCSF used to be top 5 or whatever in primary care, but that is deceiving. Not many people here actually practice outpatient medicine when it is all said and done.

The other thing I'll add is that as people go through medical school fewer and fewer people actually choose to do primary care. I am teaching a small group of first year med students now and the majority of them say things like they want to practice primary care, work with the underserved, etc. Three years later, many of them will be saying things like anesthesia, categorical medicine, emergency medicine, ortho, etc. That is why in most cases whenever someone hears a premed saying they want to do primary care it is heard as "blah blah blah". If it winds up being true, fantastic. But in most cases, people gain more perspective and gain insight into other realms of medicine that they have never considered.

 

[souljah1]

My point was that it is more important what you do at Stanford or MSU or anywhere else to show your commitment to your chosen field, in this case primary care. The name is only going to get you so far and then it is going to come down to board scores, recommendations and activities that set you apart. Stanford is a great med school but an MD from Stanford is not an admissions ticket to any residency in the country. That was my point.

The name of your program is sometimes more important than board scores in many specialties. In many ways, an MD from Stanford (or a phone call from Stanford's program director on your behalf) will open up many doors.

Right or wrong, the name matters even more for residency than it does for medical school. At least that is my perspective after going through medical school.

 

[dz88]

so what if I just want to be a surgeon, which school should I choose: the research or the primary care med school?

 

[DrBowtie]

so what if I just want to be a surgeon, which school should I choose: the research or the primary care med school?

Research.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

so what if I just want to be a surgeon, which school should I choose: the research or the primary care med school?

If you just want to be a surgeon, and have no interest in research. Go to a "primary care" med school. You will be more likely to have more classmates who share similar non-research interests. After interviewing at a variety of places, I've found that each school does have a distinct personality. If research isn't your thing, you might not want to be in a class replete with future academicians.

Research is not a prerequisite for surgery residencies, even the competitive ones. For example, the guy who wrote Hot Lights Cold Steel, Michael Collins, went to Loyola, didn't conduct any research, and ended up doing his orthopedic surgery residency at Mayo.

 

[OSUdoc08]

The whole primary care denomination thing is bogus b/c the overwhelming majority of people going into internal medicine, and to some extent ob/gyn and peds, specialize in something. If you look at our match list, we have about 25-35 out of 150'ish who go into internal medicine. How many of those poeple will actually do primary care (outpatient medicine)? Probably less than 10. Most people who go into internal medicine wind up doing fellowships in cards, gi, pulm, id, renal, etc. UCSF used to be top 5 or whatever in primary care, but that is deceiving. Not many people here actually practice outpatient medicine when it is all said and done.

The other thing I'll add is that as people go through medical school fewer and fewer people actually choose to do primary care. I am teaching a small group of first year med students now and the majority of them say things like they want to practice primary care, work with the underserved, etc. Three years later, many of them will be saying things like anesthesia, categorical medicine, emergency medicine, ortho, etc. That is why in most cases whenever someone hears a premed saying they want to do primary care it is heard as "blah blah blah". If it winds up being true, fantastic. But in most cases, people gain more perspective and gain insight into other realms of medicine that they have never considered.

Nope. Since the "overwhelming majority" of physicians are internists and family physicians, then you cannot say that the majority train in any specialty. They would then cease to become called an internist and instead be called a cardiology, pulmonologist, etc.

Take a look in your local yellow pages and make a tally. Non-specialist primary care physicians are the most common.

 

[OSUdoc08]

so what if I just want to be a surgeon, which school should I choose: the research or the primary care med school?

It shouldn't matter.