US News Rankings vs. match list

[greggth]

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I've just been comparing two measures for 5 schools: Ohio State, Univ. of Iowa, Mt. Sinai, Case, and U. of Rochester. Judging from the percentage of students who match at prestigious university hospitals, the rankings of these schools should be:

1. Mt. Sinai (20%)
2. Rochester (19%)
3. Case (18%)
4. Iowa (8%)
5. Ohio State (5%, but see note 3)

(To compile this list, I counted the percentage of students who matched at the major hospitals of Johns Hopkins, UCSF, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, UCLA, U Wash, Wash U., Duke, Michigan, Penn, and Columbia in 2002, 2003, and 2004. For example, 20% of Mt. Sinai graduates matched at one of those schools. Note 1 : I used all match lists available to me-- for some schools I was able to get data from 3 years' worth of match lists and I averaged them; for others, only one year. Note 2: to avoid a reporting bias, I divided not by the number of people on the match list, but by the size of the entering class. Note 3: if Cleveland Clinic were to be included as a prestigious university hospital, Ohio State's percentage would be 8%. If not, it is 5%)

But USNWR has the reputation rankings (peer assessment and residency director assessment) as:
1. Case (3.8/3.7)
2. Iowa (3.7/3.8)
3. Mt Sinai (3.6/3.5)
4. Rochester (3.6/3.5)
5. Ohio State (3.2/3.3)

By the way, what does it mean on a match list when someone has 2 institutions by their name, like one in Boston and one in New York, or one in California and one in Pittsburgh?

 

[DrRads101]

Your methodology is flawed because you are assuming that every graduate, no matter where they live, all want to go to prestigious hospitals on the coasts. You are comparing coastal graduates, where this list of "presitigious hospitals" is nearby, to midwestern graduates who I'm sure have no interest in packing their bags and moving a thousand miles away from their family in Iowa and Ohio.

Let's just be blunt here: I doubt nearly the percentage of graduates from places like Case or Iowa really want to or even try to match at places like Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc., so saying that a "lower percentage of graduates match there" begs the question if they even are applying there in the first place. Notice how the places on the east coast match to many places on the east coast, west coast on the west coast, midwest in the midwest, etc.

I can tell you right now that I won't be trying to match at any of those places on your list that are supposedly prestigious simply because I don't want to be a nomad constantly moving to/from the midwest. I chose to go to medical school in Chicago so I can stay in the midwest and really build a life and a network here. If location is a big deal now before medical school, it becomes an even bigger deal later afterward as raising a family comes into the pictures. I want to stay around my family and neighborhood, not just match for a place because of pedigree, and then spend my 20's and early 30's bouncing around the country like a nomad. I have a feeling that graduates from Iowa want to stay in Iowa or nearby their family, and you can't blame them. The reputation of the school versus where the people match is not representative of anything unless everyone wants to go to the same places, it's just representative of where the graduates are applying to. It is no wonder that Mt. Sinai and Rochester graduates happen to want to stay near the east coast, and apply to programs nearby like Yale, Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc.

I mean, you can argue that Columbia graduates have a much more "prestigious" list than Michigan graduates, for instance, but Michigan has a better reputation among residency directors and many would argue that it is a better medical school than Columbia. All this means is that either Columbia students place a higher value on coastal pedigree, or more likely, that that the so called "prestigious" hospitals all happen to be nearby, or in the same vain as what they are used to (the coasts), whereas 50% of all Michigan graduates have family and ties to Michigan, so most of them apply around there. Do you not think that if Penn, Yale, and Columbia were located in Iowa you would see a much higher match percentage from Iowa graduates to these hospitals, and a much lower match percentage from those schools out in New York like Mt. Sinai? People from Iowa and Ohio are no more longing to move to the coast than the coastals are longing to move to Iowa. Your methodology assumes that all graduates are robots who want to go to the same places just for pedigree and completely forgets what life is going to be like in 5 years when you graduate, as you will probably want to settle down into a certain location/vicinity and hopefully have a family and build off your professional and social network that was created while in medical school.

A much more prudent question to ask is not what percentage of these graduates match at these places, but what percentage that APPLY to these places get accepted.

 

[exmike]

one thing i can note right off the top is that ohio and case are majority in state. I would guess that most of those grads would want to stay there for residency, away from the famous academic med centers in the east coast. personal preference could itself explain the variation right there.

Also why wouldnt you add Cleveland Clinic, its the #5 usnews hospital, so above some of the ones you used.

Also cleveland clinic switched its affiliation to Case, so the # of case students matching there should rise and the # of OSU students matching there should decline.

There are so many variables changing from year to year from personal perference to the desirebility of certain residencies.

we'll never understand rankings and match lists. so why try?

 

[josehernandez94]

I was pretty sure Rochester doesn't even publish a match list. They give a general list of the residencies and states their students go to, but nothing even as specific as which hospitals.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

You also forgot that Iowa has top 10 programs in ENT, Ophthalmology, and Ortho. There are students who prefer to stay in the Mid-West because of Mayo, Iowa, Wash U, etc...

 

[greggth]

ctwickman:
People have different goals. Maybe there is no real difference between the opportunities offered by different schools.

But I have no basis to know that. I want to go to the school that I think will challenge me most, where the quality of instruction will be best, where there will be the best facilities and most opportunities to have the freedom to do what I want. I'm using the USNWR rankings and match lists as a proxy for these things. The geographical factor is not a big deal for me.

I also want to prove to myself that I can make it through a challenging program, and I think that having a degree from a "big-name" school can help a person out. Maybe it is not fair, but that is the way life is.

How many people regret going to Harvard?

By the way, as you predicted, the University of Michigan match list score is 26%; Columbia's match list score is 33%.

 

[exmike]

ctwickman:
People have different goals. Maybe there is no real difference between the opportunities offered by different schools.

But I have no basis to know that. I want to go to the school that I think will challenge me most, where the quality of instruction will be best, where there will be the best facilities and most opportunities to have the freedom to do what I want. I'm using the USNWR rankings and match lists as a proxy for these things. The geographical factor is not a big deal for me.

I also want to prove to myself that I can make it through a challenging program, and I think that having a degree from a "big-name" school can help a person out. Maybe it is not fair, but that is the way life is.

How many people regret going to Harvard?

By the way, as you predicted, the University of Michigan match list score is 26%; Columbia's match list score is 33%.

where would you like to go?

 

[elias514]

There is a flawed assumption in your rankings methodology (a flaw that ctwickman addressed)--i.e., that everyone applies to the elite programs in a given specialty and, more importantly, PREFERS to attend these programs. Another flaw is that there are numerous elite programs that you've probably never heard of. For instance, did you know that the University of Cincinnati and Hennepin County are two of the very best emergency medicine residency programs in the country, or that U Iowa has a top 5 opthalmology program? What about the University of Florida at Gainesville--did you know that the neurosurgery program there is world-class? Better yet, did you know that the pediatrics residency program at Texas Children's Hospital is considered by many to be the best program in the country? What about Barrow Institute for neurosurgery, UAB-Birmingham for general surgery, Grand Rapids for Orthopaedics...ever heard of these programs? Probably not, but they're supposed to be truly outstanding places to train.

This match list ranking business is so stupid.

 

[elias514]

I don't even know what the practical benefit of med school prestige is. If you look at the resident profiles of residency programs at top schools, you'll see students from med schools around the country--top 10, top 20, top 50 and unranked. If med school name is such an important factor in the Match, why do you see so many people from "mediocre" med schools matching at outstanding programs?

 

[Benjo]

OK--this ranking system is f-ing terrible, no offense. It is almost silly to rate match lists overall, especially considering the limited information available to us. If you could somehow get each students rank, and then do statistics that are way over my head to determine all sorts of variables, then maybe this approach would suffice. But, as it is, it is atrocious.
Other posters are on point--match list analysis is virtually worthless, because there are personal perferences, etc to consider, and are beyond statistical analysis.
I disagree with the more emphatic dismissals of match lists or school prestige in general for a couple reasons, however. First of all, school prestige does matter--Hopkins can claim that 90% of their class matches first choice while other schools only claim first 2 or 3. This could be explained by other very valid reasons, however--if you take a Hopkins-caliber student and place him/her at an unranked school they will probably do the things required to get a top-notch residency of their choice (if they choose to do so). But, still, it makes you think that school prestige plays a certain role in matching, right? Second of all, if you have an idea of what you might want to do, you can look to see whether schools you are choosing between siphon a lot of students into that specialty, and where. This is assuming you know what you want to do, and that it does not change, which is rare on both accounts. And last (and probably least), if you can look at match lists over time and see trends that could help to assess the "personality" of a med school, insofar as they rear doctors that choose "high-caliber" fields or hospitals. Ok, the last one is lame, but if you want to avoid so-called gunners, it could help.
Just my thoughts. But, skip the stats.

 

[greggth]

... there are numerous elite programs that you've probably never heard of. For instance, did you know that the University of Cincinnati and Hennepin County are two of the very best emergency medicine residency programs in the country, or that U Iowa has a top 5 opthalmology program? What about the University of Florida at Gainesville--did you know that the neurosurgery program there is world-class? Better yet, did you know that the pediatrics residency program at Texas Children's Hospital is considered by many to be the best program in the country? What about Barrow Institute for neurosurgery, UAB-Birmingham for general surgery, Grand Rapids for Orthopaedics...ever heard of these programs? Probably not, but they're supposed to be truly outstanding places to train.

Can you help me out? I am totally ignorant; I know nothing about this. Why do you say those places are great? What criteria are you using? Take Hennepin County for example. I've never heard of it. Why do you say it's one of the best in the country for emergency medicine?

 

[mdmike24]

You should base your decision on which school has the best program for you. Do some stress research more than others? Are you interested in international opportunities? Would you rather be in NYC? Are their faculty interested in teaching medical students? How diverse is the patient population at the main teaching hospital? None of these things are ranked but they differentiate programs and might help you make your decision. If there's a particular field you know you want to do a residency in, talk to doctors in that field and ask them which school they would recommend.

The USNews reputational score among residency directors is worthless. Their survey has a response rate of less than 28%. And i'm betting that the busiest directors at the best hospitals toss that thing right in the trash as soon as they get it.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

i think greggth (and pekq in another thread) are trying their best to quantify something that's very difficult to quantify. i can't believe the hate that's being thrown their way. maybe the methodology's not perfect, but what's with the vitriol? either suggest improvements, calmly state problems or just leave it alone. jeez.

 

[greggth]

OK, here's another one.. how about the US News rankings of "America's Best Hospitals"? Are the med schools at the "America's Best Hospitals" good ones?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

OK, here's another one.. how about the US News rankings of "America's Best Hospitals"? Are the med schools at the "America's Best Hospitals" good ones?

These are two different rankings, and those rankings are difficult to extrapolate for residency training too. However, you'll see a trend that the best hospitals are usually associated with some of the best medical schools. I'm not biased when I say that. 😉

 

[pekq]

It's silly, IMO, to say prestige does not matter. There are far more Ivy leaguers at top med schools than your non-big name schools despite the smaller student body. Maybe these kids are more driven but the Ivy League institutes provide better opportunities and a big name. I believe that an Ivy Leaguer can get into a med school with stats slightly lower than a non big name school. There are definetly advantages and people who match well at lower ranked med school would match even better from a big name med school. As for UMich vs Columbia, they are pretty big names, about even.

I also did do a ranking awhile back using more criterias, you can search for it.