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US News Rankings

Discussion in 'General Residency Issues' started by Fabio, Apr 15, 2004.

  1. Fabio

    Fabio Senior Member
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    Hi again . . .

    Anyone have the latest US News and World Report Rankings for America's Best Graduate Schools 2005?

    It breaks down medicine into a few of the specialties - I am particularly curious about pediatrics, please.

    Thanks.
     
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  3. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    Isn't it 2004 right now?
     
  4. WatchingWaiting

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    I think US News had decided it's easier to sell the crap if you date the stuff a year ahead. It also makes last year's rankings sound a year older and, thus, encourage new sales every year. It is technically application for the 2005-2006 academic year during the 2004-2005 application cycle, so it's not that inaccurate.
     
  5. Catalyst

    Catalyst Enjoying Life
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    the new rankings... though I don't think they make much sense at all

    1. Harvard University (MA)
    2. Johns Hopkins University (MD)
    3. University of Pennsylvania
    4. University of Cincinnati
    5. University of California?San Francisco
    6. Baylor College of Medicine (TX)
    7. Washington University in St. Louis
    8. Stanford University (CA)
    9. University of Washington
    10. Duke University (NC)
    11. University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
    Yale University (CT)
    13. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons (NY)
    14. University of Michigan?Ann Arbor
    15. University of California?Los Angeles (Geffen)
    16. Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL)
    17. Case Western Reserve University (OH)
    18. University of North Carolina?Chapel Hill
    19. University of Pittsburgh
    20. Boston University
    University of Chicago
    22. University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)
     
  6. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    Where did you get these rankings? They look different from what is on the US News website.
     
  7. Fermi

    Fermi Senior Member
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    I think those are the Peds rankings, which the OP was asking for.
     
  8. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    It doesn't match up with the hospital peds rankings either.
     
  9. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    1. Harvard University (MA)
    2. Washington University in St. Louis
    3. Johns Hopkins University (MD)
    4. Duke University (NC)
    University of Pennsylvania
    6. University of California?San Francisco
    7. University of Michigan?Ann Arbor
    8. Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons (NY)
    Stanford University (CA)
    10. University of Washington
    Yale University (CT)
    12. Cornell University (Weill) (NY)
    13. Baylor College of Medicine (TX)
    14. University of California?Los Angeles (Geffen)
    15. University of Pittsburgh
    Vanderbilt University (TN)
    17. University of California?San Diego
    U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center?Dallas
    19. Emory University (GA)
    20. Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL)
    University of North Carolina?Chapel Hill
    22. Mayo Medical School (MN)
    University of Chicago
    24. Case Western Reserve University (OH)
    25. University of Alabama?Birmingham
    University of Virginia
    University of Wisconsin?Madison
    28. Mount Sinai School of Medicine (NY)
    University of Iowa (Roy J. & Lucille A. Carver)
    30. New York University
    31. University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
    32. University of Rochester (NY)
    University of Southern California
    34. Dartmouth Medical School (NH)
    Oregon Health & Science University
    University of Minnesota?Twin Cities
    37. Yeshiva University (Albert Einstein) (NY)
    38. Ohio State University
    39. Indiana University?Indianapolis
    40. Tufts University (MA)
    University of Florida
    Wake Forest University (NC)
    43. Boston University
    Brown University (RI)
    Georgetown University (DC)
    University of Cincinnati
    University of Maryland
    48. University of Utah
    49. University of California?Davis
    50. Jefferson Medical College (PA)
    Medical College of Wisconsin
    University of Miami (FL)
     
  10. aliraja

    aliraja Troublemaker
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    SachinG's rankings seem to match up with USNews' rankings although, for free, I can only see the top three peds spots.

    Masonator's rankings are the new (research) med school rankings. How'd WUSTL move up to #2, anyway?

    Both, IMHO, crap. But only as a reflection of USNews... not the guys who were nice enough to post them. :)
     
  11. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    I get it, sachin is using the rankings you need to buy.
     
  12. pdiddy

    pdiddy Member
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    ...this US News stuff is all crap...what does it mean that "Harvard University" has the best Peds? is that the med school, MGH, B&W, or Children's?...not that it is any better of a list, but under the "Best Hospitals" they list many different specialties, below is the Peds listing which makes a little more sense.

    1 Children's Hospital of Philadelphia 58.0
    2 Children's Hospital Boston 55.4
    3 Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore 35.4
    4 Children's Hospital of New York-Presbyterian 18.0
    5 Texas Children's Hospital, Houston 13.9
    6 Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital, Cleveland 13.9
    7 Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh 12.9
    8 Children's Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati 12.9
    9 Children's Hospital, Denver 11.3
    10 University of California, San Francisco Medical Center 10.5
    11 Children's Memorial Hospital, Chicago 9.8
    12 Childrens Hospital Los Angeles 9.6
    13 Mattel Children's Hospital at UCLA, Los Angeles 8.8
    14 Children's National Medical Center, Washington, D.C. 8.6
    15 Children's Hospital and Medical Center, Seattle 7.8
    16 Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 7.6
    17 Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 7.5
    18 Lucile Packard Children's Hospital at Stanford, Palo Alto, Calif. 7.4
    19 Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C. 5.9
    20 St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Memphis 5.1
    21 St. Louis Children's Hospital 4.4
    22 St. Christopher's Hospital for Children, Philadelphia 4.1
    23 Barnes-Jewish Hospital, St. Louis 3.9
    24 Miami Children's Hospital 3.5
    25 NYU Medical Center, New York 3.3
    26 Yale-New Haven Hospital, New Haven, Conn. 3.2
    27 Strong Memorial Hospital-University of Rochester, N.Y. 3.0
    28 Cleveland Clinic
     
  13. Fabio

    Fabio Senior Member
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    Thanks, Sachin, for posting! I really appreciate it and was just curious.

    The difference between Best Hospitals and Best Graduate Schools is that the former ranks #faculty, research, facilities, funding, etc. The latter actually ranks the quality and feedback of the educational program, which is what I am more interested in anyway.

    But you're right. They don't make a whole lot of sense! :)
     
  14. notstudying

    notstudying Senior Member
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    I haven't quite figured these out, because they rank institutions rather than residencies. For example, Harvard has two affiliated peds programs-the Boston Combined residency (which is also affiliated with BU) and one at MGH. So is it based on both? And what about BU? I think their only program is the one with Harvard, so how do they separate them out? I'm not sure that it's a useful way of evaluating the quality of individual residencies.
     
  15. BPKurtz

    BPKurtz Heck Of A Guy
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    I agree that in theory we'd be more interested in the quality of the educational program, especially if you knew what specialty you wanted to do and were looking for the med school with good quality training in that. But honestly I can't see how they'd be able to compare the quality of education in a particular discipline between school X and school Y. What criteria would they use? The whole methodology US News uses in general is quite suspect. I don't know as much about the medical school rankings, but I read a great article about how US News purposely tweaks their criteria for undergraduate rankings every year (how heavily they weigh one factor versus another). They claim it's because they decide on a better way to do it. But the real reason is probably that if the rankings were exactly the same every year, no one would buy the magazine. I remember a few years back MIT suddenly jumped to the top. This reflected not some great programs or advances there but rather the change in rating system.

    Then there is the problem brought up with the example of pediatrics at Harvard where medical schools and residency programs don't have a 1:1 correlation. Even if you wanted to determine which place offered the best residency education, you couldn't.

    So, some people use the "top hospitals by specialty" feature (since hospitals and residency programs have a correlation closer to 1:1) , but this is also flawed because rankings are aimed at patients who want to know where they should go to be treated. It includes flawed criteria like mortality rate, thus encouraging hospitals to take less sick patients so that their mortality rate (and thus ranking) is artificially high. One could in fact argue that a hospital with a higher mortality rate actually has more complex patients and may be a better place to do residency training.

    So, basically, trying to use US News rankings to figure out where to do a residency is a highly dubious exercise. And in general, the amount you are influenced by US News rankings is inversely related to your experience in the field (if you are a premed they may be all you have to go on, med students can usually view the list with some skepticism, and an attending may ignore them completely, since he/she actually know which residency programs will actually train you well). The stock you put in them is also directly related to how much you value other people thinking you're smart.

    bpkurtz
     
  16. johnd

    johnd Member
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    You know what has always amused me about this topic is that everyone complains about the criteria US News uses but if you look for example at the top 10 programs in IM or peds, I bet that top 10 is really close to what a PD would tell you the top 10 training programs are.
     
  17. Masonator

    Masonator Senior Member
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    The main way they get the reputation score is polling program directors, chairman and other leaders in the field.
     
  18. BPKurtz

    BPKurtz Heck Of A Guy
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    But they're not ranking programs! We just discussed that! They're either ranking medical schools, or they're ranking hospitals. Which are you saying are valid for deciding quality of residency programs?

    bpkurtz
     
  19. WingZero

    WingZero Senior Member
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    My belief about the USNews hospital rankings is this - the rankings are geared for the general public who may have a choice when it comes to specialty care for a particular condition. In other words, it is ranking the best hospitals to be a patient at, NOT the best hospital to train at. Obviously, the best hospital for patients may not necessarily be the best hospital for residents. That being said, the rankings serve as a general rule of thumb as to what places are leaders in their field (I look at the reputation score). In the surgical specialties, the best hospital for patients is often not a great place to train since that means the attendings will let you do less (more VIP patients, hospital reuptation on the line) whereas at county hospitals you get a much better hands-on experience. In addition, the rankings also favor hospitals that have all the subspecialties in a single hospital (i.e. for orthopaedics - tumor, peds, sports, joints, hand, trauma, foot/ankle, spine) whereas many superb residency programs aren't ranked as high because residents do rotations at several affiliated hospitals, so that one hospital doesn't particularly stand out. Just my $0.02.
     
  20. notstudying

    notstudying Senior Member
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    Actually US News does a separate rating for hospitals in different specialties, which was published last fall. So I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to be.

    But the point is a good one, and I'll add that even for residents, the idea of what the "best program" is is individual. I interviewed at 3 of the top peds programs-one I thought was awful (the chief resident started the interview by saying "so, you've probably heard that we're a malignant program, but we're really not"...right), one was completely inappropriate for my interests, and the third I think would have consumed me. The program I ranked first wasn't in the top 20 (though I think by many measures it should be), but it was right for me. The best programs will be different for people who want to do academic vs. community work, or by various subspecialties-if you really want to do endocrine, and the best program in the country happens to have some negative transition in their endocrine division, you might look elsewhere. If you want to be the chairman or dean someday, maybe you'll go to a big name (that's a big name in all specialties). A good PD will try to avoid listing the "best" programs overall, and focus on what are the best schools for that particular applicant. US news recognition is nice, but there are many other factors that are far more important.
     
  21. Chimera

    Chimera Member
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    Notstudying-

    Not meaning to hijack the thread, but could you elaborate on your experience with these 3 top peds programs as I will likely be looking at the same residency locations next year, when I apply for the match. I would be very interested in your opinions.

    Thanks.
     
  22. notstudying

    notstudying Senior Member
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    Chimera-I PM'd you!
     

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