USC First YR Cost of Attendance $152k 2020-2021

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the other option people say is to go be a nurse or go into tech, but the problem with nursing is that you dont have the same autonomy and you dont have the potential to earn a higher income. what am i missing here? am i a naive predent? is 250k debt still worth it? my family is willing to pay 40k a year i pick up the 60k, but even then that debt amount scares me
There being no upward ceiling in dentistry is one of the best parts. I could've gone the tech route, but I want to return back to South Dakota and there is no room to job swap and negotiate salaries like bigger metropolitan areas. Nursing? Been there as an assistant. While there is always demand and some upward mobility, it can be exhausting and is definitely not for everyone.

While there is some uncertainty in the future with cost of schools, covid implications, corps, and insurances, dentistry is still a great career if you're able to keep your debt low

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the other option people say is to go be a nurse or go into tech, but the problem with nursing is that you dont have the same autonomy and you dont have the potential to earn a higher income. what am i missing here? am i a naive predent? is 250k debt still worth it? my family is willing to pay 40k a year i pick up the 60k, but even then that debt amount scares me
A lot of dentists on SDN think $250k in student loan is doable. If I were you I would take your family’s offer.
 
Count yourself lucky if you can get out of dental school in this day and age with just a $250K balance.
 
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I wonder how many of USC grads get into their $135k/yr (before interest) three years Ortho program. Typically, most Ortho programs accept couple of their own pre-doc students. So in the case of USC today; $650k for the DDS degree plus $500k for the ortho degree. So there is at least couple of people at USC taking close to $1.15M in student loans before they see their first patient. All those numbers will go up next year, and year after.... and it will be around $1.5M in few years from now.

Every pre-dent who interviews there should have a mandatory pocket calculator.


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I wonder how many of USC grads get into their $135k/yr (before interest) three years Ortho program. Typically, most Ortho programs accept couple of their own pre-doc students. So in the case of USC today; $650k for the DDS degree plus $500k for the ortho degree. So there is at least couple of people at USC taking close to $1.15M in student loans before they see their first patient. All those numbers will go up next year, and year after.... and it will be around $1.5M in few years from now.

Every pre-dent who interviews there should have a mandatory pocket calculator.


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Damn 1.15 million to become an orthodontist. They better give their orthos diamond encrusted brackets at that price tag.
 
Damn 1.15 million to become an orthodontist. They better give their orthos diamond encrusted brackets at that price tag.

I’m guessing that ortho program might be the easiest to get in. Would be interesting to know what their applicant to acceptance ratio is. I wouldn’t be surprised if they accept applicants with GI bill checks.


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I’m guessing that ortho program might be the easiest to get in. Would be interesting to know what their applicant to acceptance ratio is. I wouldn’t be surprised if they accept applicants with GI bill checks.


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According to ADA HPI data, they received 180 applications for 6 positions for the 2019 entering class.

Compare that to the 99, 15 and 62 applications that UCLA , MedStar, and Maimonides received, respectively. The difference is those programs PAY you to become an orthodontist. Another piece of evidence showing that most dental students are completely ret@rded when it comes to finances.
 
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According to ADA HPI data, they received 180 applications for 6 positions for the 2019 entering class.

Compare that to the 99, 15 and 62 applications that UCLA , MedStar, and Maimonides received, respectively. The difference is those programs PAY you to become an orthodontist. Another piece of evidence showing that most dental students are completely ret@rded when it comes to finances.

Could it be that every applicant applies to USC ortho as their plan B, C, D, E or F program?


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Scenario 1: Attend UCLA ortho straight out of dental school and accumulate 500k debt, which most likely ends up as 800k-1mil by the time you pay it off, which is actually even worse since it's post tax ( pre-tax it would be at least 1.1-1.5 mil at a 33% effective tax rate) and that's just the residency debt.

Scenario 2: Apply to the free/stipend ortho programs, if you don't get in work for a year and reapply. Assuming you get in after applying twice, the only way it's not worth it is if that extra yr of ortho income is way way greater than the GP income (800k??). Congrats, you just earned a million dollars.

That being said most of the people in my school interested in ortho are all 2nd generation dentists/have no debt and are going to work for their parents' practices afterwards so maybe they don't care?

Perhaps the UCLA ortho applicants are marginal applicants with weaker stats that are willing to pay any price to get in? Seems unlikely since UCLA is 'prestigious', but I don't know anything about ortho really.
 
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Could it be that every applicant applies to USC ortho as their plan B, C, D, E or F program?


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Possibly, but I would think that the programs that pay are the most desirable and should get the most applicants.
 
According to ADA HPI data, they received 180 applications for 6 positions for the 2019 entering class.

Compare that to the 99, 15 and 62 applications that UCLA , MedStar, and Maimonides received, respectively. The difference is those programs PAY you to become an orthodontist. Another piece of evidence showing that most dental students are completely ret@rded when it comes to finances.

UCLA required 5 LORs from what I remember. A reason I could definitely see reducing the number of applicants. But I agree I’m surprised USC had more.
Medstar is a troubled program. I think they were in danger of even accepting a new class. Maimonides is not a name brand program so I’m not surprised it has less applicants. I have noticed that NY based hospital programs aren’t that popular compared to traditional programs for whatever reason, even with the stipend.
 
Speaking of the NY hospital programs, Maimonides does not participate in match and by applying to some match programs, you forfeit your ability to apply to non-match schools. Additionally, other schools like St Barnabas require experience (1 year GPR or few years working) before applying, thus taking out anyone applying straight out of school.
 
. I have noticed that NY based hospital programs aren’t that popular compared to traditional programs for whatever reason, even with the stipend.

I felt the same way when I applied to ortho residency years ago. I lived on the west coast and going to school on the east coast seemed crazy. I did not apply to USC or any other mega expensive residency. I graciously accepted a NY residency that paid a stipend. Unless you are independently wealthy ... you would have to be crazy to pass up a stipend paying ortho residency. I came out ahead financially. I had hospital housing. Health insurance. Got to park in a parking structure (parking is huge in NY). Tuition fully paid and I had money left over. Win-win. You will see things in a hospital setting that you will never see in a traditonal DS.

My TOTAL DS and residency debt was less than 100K. Might have been around 80-90K. I don't recall exactly since it was such a small, insignificant number that had ZERO influence on my future plans to buy an ortho practice.

During these times of high DS debt. Choose the cheapest dental school and seriously, if given the opportunity to go to residency for FREE. Do it. Just like dental school. No one cares where you went to DS. Patients do not care. Same for ortho residencies.

Hearing these stories of students going into ortho with debts above 500K is crazy talk. Above 400K is pushing it.
 
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My husband and I are both dentists. We both went to University of Michigan for dental school, with in-state tuition. He graduated in 2001, and I graduated in 2004. I think he maybe had 90k in debt, and I had around 115k. We paid his debt off in 10 years, and mine in 12.

In 2007 we bought a practice in a small town in Michigan. Back then the nearest corporate office was hours away. Now, we have an Aspen 30 miles away. I haven’t noticed any competition or patient loss, tucked away in our little rural area. I still think dentistry can be lucrative and fun...if you don’t want to live in an urban area with lots of competition.

As for tuition rates....holy hell. I mean I know I’m old now, but what happened.......?
 
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Scenario 1: Attend UCLA ortho straight out of dental school and accumulate 500k debt, which most likely ends up as 800k-1mil by the time you pay it off, which is actually even worse since it's post tax ( pre-tax it would be at least 1.1-1.5 mil at a 33% effective tax rate) and that's just the residency debt.

Scenario 2: Apply to the free/stipend ortho programs, if you don't get in work for a year and reapply. Assuming you get in after applying twice, the only way it's not worth it is if that extra yr of ortho income is way way greater than the GP income (800k??). Congrats, you just earned a million dollars.

That being said most of the people in my school interested in ortho are all 2nd generation dentists/have no debt and are going to work for their parents' practices afterwards so maybe they don't care?

Perhaps the UCLA ortho applicants are marginal applicants with weaker stats that are willing to pay any price to get in? Seems unlikely since UCLA is 'prestigious', but I don't know anything about ortho really.

UCLA ortho is a paid program. Getting ~$60,000 stipend and no tuition.
 
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USC is the only dental school I got into this cycle (my 1st cycle). After looking at the tuition rate I don't know if its worth it as an international student.
 
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USC is the only dental school I got into this cycle (my 1st cycle). After looking at the tuition rate I don't know if its worth it as an international student.

No it is not.
 
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I know it is hard to hear but I would start over and try your best to do what you can to get into a cheaper School. $600K+ with interest is a death sentence. Many people will be in big trouble when their tax bomb comes. No one will blink an eye either, these "rich dentists" can afford it.
 
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In my estimation, the best indicator is when we see the tuition and fees for some schools edge closer to $200k first year COA. 5-10% of dental schools have already passed the $150k first year threshold, many more will do so in the next 2-3 years. Schools like Midwest, USC, NYU, and the new private schools are leading the pack - the Rolex schools (sarcasm!). So if these programs raise their 1st yr tuition and fees 3-5% each year for the next 5-6 years, we will see the first dental school in the US to charge $200k/yr (with the 7-8% interest). To me, that would be the tipping point and a psychological red line crossed for most applicants. That will draw a significant attention (through media, blogs, youtube, etc) at levels we haven’t seen before to the public - specially to the families and friends of the pre-dents, and it will eventually effect the enrollment numbers at those expensive schools first.

Then again, we did have the Orthodontist with $1M+ in student loans featured in New York Times and other national papers last year, and that didn’t have much effect on D1 enrollment at any school. He might have been seen as an outlier or irresponsible on his part - and to be fair, to some degree it was. But when hundreds of dentists graduate with about $1M in student loans, that story will end up on CBS 60 minutes, TikTok and whatever other high channel of information will be, and that story will be synonymous with dentistry and dentists moving forward. It will be a conversation starter for sure, even among the most random of people.


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the zoomers see thebentist on tiktok and now they all want to be orthodontists, it's still somewhat popular. I think he did one video (out of like 200) where he talked about his debt
 
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USC is the only dental school I got into this cycle (my 1st cycle). After looking at the tuition rate I don't know if its worth it as an international student.
Another option is to take a year off, get a low-waged unskilled labor job (I am not sure if you can find one right now because of the Covid shutdown), and reapply. There is no guarantee that you will get in again. I believe that the lenght of training for international students is only 2 years.......so you will owe $300k, instead of $600k.
 
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I believe that the lenght of training for international students is only 2 years.......so you will owe $300k, instead of $600k.
I don't think OP is a foreign trained dentist so he/she will have to do the full 4 years. So yeah, looking at $600k in debt.
 
I don't think OP is a foreign trained dentist so he/she will have to do the full 4 years. So yeah, looking at $600k in debt.
If he'll have to return to his home country to practice dentistry, then it's probably not worth it. US is one of the very few countries, where dentists (especially the practice owners) can make a lot of money. I don't know what his home country is. If the plan is to work as an associate for the rest of one's life and only make $120-150k/year, then I don't recommend taking out $600k loan.

Another cheaper option is to get into a dental school in his home country.... and then apply for 2-year advanced standing programs in the US.
 
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Trust me its not a cheaper route anymore My school in the Midwest charges 400k+ for foreign trained dentist program for two years. As a foreign dentist, I pay more as COA than regular 4year DDS. This is fast becoming a racket!
If he'll have to return to his home country to practice dentistry, then it's probably not worth it. US is one of the very few countries, where dentists (especially the practice owners) can make a lot of money. I don't know what his home country is. If the plan is to work as an associate for the rest of one's life and only make $120-150k/year, then I don't recommend taking out $600k loan.

Another cheaper option is to get into a dental school in his home country.... and then apply for 2-year advanced standing programs in the US.
 
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the zoomers see thebentist on tiktok and now they all want to be orthodontists, it's still somewhat popular. I think he did one video (out of like 200) where he talked about his debt

To be fair the general tiktok audience will get thoroughly clapped the moment they take organic chemistry. I don't think we have to worry about tiktokers becoming orthodontists lol
 
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I just finished undergraduate studies and starting dentistry. Unfortunately, I have to pick between USC or applying again next year.
 
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I was just listening to studentloanplanner on Howard Farran podcast. he said that incoming NYU students are projecting to graduate with 750k of debt

crazy
 
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I just finished undergraduate studies and starting dentistry. Unfortunately, I have to pick between USC or applying again next year.

apply again...... you know if you're $400k maybe bite the bullet and not apply again but USC and NYU are different animals...
 
I just finished undergraduate studies and starting dentistry. Unfortunately, I have to pick between USC or applying again next year.
I would not pay $600,000+ to become a dentist.

B7AB5F82-FDAD-4667-8798-16476E6F5B4A.jpeg


Big Hoss
 
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Another option is to take a year off, get a low-waged unskilled labor job (I am not sure if you can find one right now because of the Covid shutdown), and reapply. There is no guarantee that you will get in again. I believe that the lenght of training for international students is only 2 years.......so you will owe $300k, instead of $600k.

i think total tuition is the same for international student (at lease in my school). They just double it even though It’s only 2 years.
 
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Like I have friends that went to state schools to be an accountant for $60k total. They started at $60k as accountants and can work their way up and increase their pay with CPA cert and promotions. That is a good deal. Some companies fund their masters and now they are $80k. One of buddies is in his 3rd year after masters and making $120k....... soooo all of that for $60k. So why do you want to go to dental school $400k+ to start at $120-150k? If you enjoy it that is another thing, but I bet 90% of pre-dents just do it for the "money" what 56 year old Dr. Bill's life that was in $100k of debt from dental school looks like.
 
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Just ball parking it here, but at $650,000 in loans your monthly payment will be around $4,500 for 20 years. That’s you paying nearly $1,100,000 over the life of the loan. Of course this is paid back with money after you’ve paid taxes. So you’ll need to have earned around $1,400,000 to pay that $650,000 back. No thanks!

Big Hoss
 
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Just ball parking it here, but at $650,000 in loans your monthly payment will be around $4,500 for 20 years. That’s you paying nearly $1,100,000 over the life of the loan. Of course this is paid back with money after you’ve paid taxes. So you’ll need to have earned around $1,400,000 to pay that $650,000 back. No thanks!

Big Hoss

You can likely refinance the loans at a lower interest rate, though, after graduation and finishing training. Still, its quite bad, though.
 
Just ball parking it here, but at $650,000 in loans your monthly payment will be around $4,500 for 20 years. That’s you paying nearly $1,100,000 over the life of the loan. Of course this is paid back with money after you’ve paid taxes. So you’ll need to have earned around $1,400,000 to pay that $650,000 back. No thanks!

Big Hoss

Yikes....
 
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Makes me sad for our young dentists.
 
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USC was honest when I interviewed there in 2010 - they knew it then and it's still true now, the only way to pay back the loans at these levels is through income-driven repayment.

At some point, the funding just has to be cut off. How six figures a year can be justified to become a dentist is beyond me.
 
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USC was honest when I interviewed there in 2010 - they knew it then and it's still true now, the only way to pay back the loans at these levels is through income-driven repayment.

At some point, the funding just has to be cut off. How six figures a year can be justified to become a dentist is beyond me.

How have creditors not shut off the tab yet? With some much money being excused, I don’t understand how it’s being continued. Someone isn’t collecting what they expected, and it’s going to get worse.
 
How have creditors not shut off the tab yet? With some much money being excused, I don’t understand how it’s being continued. Someone isn’t collecting what they expected, and it’s going to get worse.
It's in the government's hands and beaucracy is intentionally designed to be inefficient and slow, any changes will be reactionary and after the fact. News outlets will track the stories for a couple of weeks and then..oh hey a shiny nickle look at that
 
Where the hell is all that money going? My god, i can’t even fathom that much money being dished out to just get your DDS diploma.

I wonder that too. I interviewed for a faculty position last year (not USC) and turned it down. They offered 1 year commitment of 8 hours a week for whopping $9000. Schools tuition is $100k/year and my colleague who went there said predocs send their crowns to China...so they are not paying their faculty nor are they are using a quality lab service. It is just puzzling.
 
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I wonder that too. I interviewed for a faculty position last year (not USC) and turned it down. They offered 1 year commitment of 8 hours a week for whopping $9000. Schools tuition is $100k/year and my colleague who went there said predocs send their crowns to China...so they are not paying their faculty nor are they are using a quality lab service. It is just puzzling.

I heard most people who take the faculty position do it for other benefits (good health insurance, getting their son/daughter into the program, etc) and not necessarily just the paycheck.


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I heard most people who take the faculty position do it for other benefits (good health insurance, getting their son/daughter into the program, etc) and not necessarily just the paycheck.


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yes,I get that. But my point is some schools have no reason to charge tuition this high. Obviously im not speaking for every schools out there. But it is unfair for dental students to carry such heavy financial burden for 20-30 years while some schools are willing cut corners in such way (i.e. sending crowns to china. If they are willing to sacrifice on the quality of final restorations, I cant imagine what else they are doing to cut costs). Anyhow, I personally believe that student loan is going to be the biggest problem in dentistry.
 
yes,I get that. But my point is some schools have no reason to charge tuition this high. Obviously im not speaking for every schools out there. But it is unfair for dental students to carry such heavy financial burden for 20-30 years while some schools are willing cut corners in such way (i.e. sending crowns to china. If they are willing to sacrifice on the quality of final restorations, I cant imagine what else they are doing to cut costs). Anyhow, I personally believe that student loan is going to be the biggest problem in dentistry.


It's amazing what some of these administrators get away with
 
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For anyone who is applying to dental school and has other choices than USC. Please consider the cheaper school. USC’s curriculum/ clinical skills is no different compare to other schools. I don’t even know where the money goes. There is nothing specific about the dental school & yet they allow themselves to charge the dental students that much money for tuition.
 
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I wonder that too. I interviewed for a faculty position last year (not USC) and turned it down. They offered 1 year commitment of 8 hours a week for whopping $9000. Schools tuition is $100k/year and my colleague who went there said predocs send their crowns to China...so they are not paying their faculty nor are they are using a quality lab service. It is just puzzling.
A large number of instructors at dental schools are foreign-trained dentists who can’t get their licenses in the US so they have no other option.
 
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For anyone who is applying to dental school and has other choices than USC. Please consider the cheaper school. USC’s curriculum/ clinical skills is no different compare to other schools. I don’t even know where the money goes. There is nothing specific about the dental school & yet they allow themselves to charge the dental students that much money for tuition.

They are so entrenched in scandals its unbelievable
 
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I think the reason USC and other schools are raising their tuition and fees this year is because they expect the student loans interest rates to fall by this July, and will stay low for at least the next couple of years or so. Expect dental schools to increase tuition and fees at full steam during that period. USC first year COA will pass the $160k mark in 18 months.


new federal student loans will come with historic-low interest rates – 2.75% for those disbursed after July 2020. Currently, rates are between 4% and 6%.


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I think the reason USC and other schools are raising their tuition and fees this year is because they expect the student loans interest rates to fall by this July, and will stay low for at least the next couple of years or so. Expect dental schools to increase tuition and fees at full steam during that period. USC first year COA will pass the $160k mark in 18 months.


new federal student loans will come with historic-low interest rates – 2.75% for those disbursed after July 2020. Currently, rates are between 4% and 6%.


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It's criminal that lower rates will lead to schools taking advantage of the situation, as they always do. They should let students who graduated refinance instead at new rates. My program (not dental) have raised their tuition for the first time in years by 5% this summer. Luckily I only have one semester left.
 
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It's criminal that lower of rates will lead to schools taking advantage of the situation, as they always do. They should let students who graduated to refinance instead at new rates. My program (not dental) have raised their tuition for the first time in years by 5% this summer. Luckily I only have one semester left.
Didn't you want to to dental but changed your mind? What ended up happening? I think we are in the same cycle a few years back
 
Didn't you want to to dental but changed your mind? What ended up happening? I think we are in the same cycle a few years back
Yea I thought the debt was too much and went PA instead (my whole program costs less than 1 year at USC). Good thing cause I didn't like anything hands on in PA school, so I don't think I would have made a good dentist! It was a very easy switch in terms of pre-requisites, I just needed a little paid healthcare experience, so I had to take a gap year. So if anyone thinks they are too deep in their pre-dental journey, there are always other options to consider as long as you haven't started d school yet. If I were a freshman in college again, I would have majored in nursing. Would have been an even cheaper journey overall. I'm still bitter that ADA refused to refund my $400 testing fee, which speaks a lot about them..
 
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