- Joined
- Mar 18, 2003
- Messages
- 2,271
- Reaction score
- 7
more than an md, not quite a DO.....PublicHealth said:
emedpa said:more than an md, not quite a DO.....
md's.....PublicHealth said:Are you referring to MDs or DCs in this program?
FoughtFyr said:3. It will be VERY interesting to see if the rotation survives USC's next LCME audit, I do not see how they can justify learning objectives that do not have an accepted scientific basis in the medical community. (Medical students are not taught experimental therapies as part of any cirricula - if there is no accepted basis, it is not taught.) Believe what you want about chiropractic but you can not debate the simple fact that it is not accepted by the medical community as a whole.
- H
awdc said:It's not so strange since there are some medical schools that have electives in alternative medicine therapies. (UCI comes to mind. I think Mt. Sinai students also have an alternative medicine elective open to them as well.) Anyways, the article states that the medical students/interns will only be observing patient care in the chiropractic clinic. BTW, chiropractic manipulation is an accepted part of back pain and various methods used by chiropractors are part of accepted care of certain musculoskeletal problems.
FoughtFyr said:It is somewhat accepted, but not as a medical methodology nor as a medical procedure (that is one performed by MDs). My medical school had alternative medicine as a course (and yes, PH, before you ask, I did well in it) but it wasn't to this level.
It will be interesting to follow this...
- H
chirodoc said:FoughtFyr...I'm puzzled why are you so accepting of acupuncture but so skeptical about chiropractic?
chirodoc said:Man, are you seriously saying b/c it's been done a thousand years means it works?
chirodoc said:Now are you seriously saying DD Palmer invented putting your hands on someone and moving a joint? Bone setting is thousands of years old, too.
chirodoc said:I think (as an asian) that some people fall in love with our culture just b/c it's attractive, not b/c it's valid. Just like that Feng Shui stuff. Give me a break.
chirodoc said:If that's the case then I need to bind some feet and get me a hotty...woo hoo. That's after I kill me a Giant Panda Bear and eat his liver so I can have 'stamina'.
chirodoc said:As a chiropractor, I'm no fan of chiropractic. But I think there should be a separation from talking about joint manipulation (what chiropractors do) and chiropractic (how chiropractors sell what they do). I think there is good evidence for the conservative, efficacious use of joint manipulation, however, I don't see any plausible reason to market it as a separate and distinct profession. I guess I would apply the same distinction needle therapy and accupuncture. One admits there is some evidence it has a beneficial effect as a therapy and the other addresses a healing art based on non-sense 'meridian' and chi energy in my gut. That is not chi...that is last nights burrito.
chirodoc said:Just having fun with you FoughtFyr...I heard you've got relative D.C.'s and can't stand them so if that's the case I can understand the hostility. But this is like kissing a twin and telling her, "man, I'm glad you're not as ugly as your sister". One profession full of BS is as bad as another full of BS.
611 said:Just to be fair, there are many allopathic, osteopathic, etc. screw-ups that end up in our emergency room also. But that is a different issue.
jesse14 said:The USC students doing rotations is just another example of increased integration of chiropractic into "traditional" academia.
I also just found out yesterday that my biomechanics TA is a 2005 graduate of the CMCC (which has degree granted status) who is doing additional work to get a fellowship in sports science in partnership with York University and the CMCC. Therefore, a chiropractic college, in partnership with an accredited University, is providing post-doctural studies.
---- just another case of chiropractic gaining integration. I know it's a small step, but it's a step many believed wouldn't happen (MD students at USC doing rotations in chiropractic)
Also, if chiro is so "useless" then why would a good med school such as USC ellect to tarnish its reputation in hopes of giving its students training in chiropractic?
What's the process a school must go through to add a new rotation? I would think a lot of work/study would be involved...
611 said:Just curious, other than Palmer, what other Chiropractic colleges have you visited?
chirodoc said:I still think you medics love it b/c it's still needles and you guys love needles.
jesse14 said:The USC students doing rotations is just another example of increased integration of chiropractic into "traditional" academia.
jesse14 said:I also just found out yesterday that my biomechanics TA is a 2005 graduate of the CMCC (which has degree granted status) who is doing additional work to get a fellowship in sports science in partnership with York University and the CMCC. Therefore, a chiropractic college, in partnership with an accredited University, is providing post-doctural studies.
jesse14 said:---- just another case of chiropractic gaining integration. I know it's a small step, but it's a step many believed wouldn't happen (MD students at USC doing rotations in chiropractic)
jesse14 said:Also, if chiro is so "useless" then why would a good med school such as USC ellect to tarnish its reputation in hopes of giving its students training in chiropractic?
What's the process a school must go through to add a new rotation? I would think a lot of work/study would be involved...
chirodoc said:It does trouble me though to hear that you, one physician out of 600,000, has seen so many cases of chiropractic malpractice and yet there is no pulic outcry or scrutiny. You have to understand that if there are that many cases then it's either exaggeritis (which I do treat ) or the biggest cover up in medicine (which defeats the purpose of bashing chiropractic).
FoughtFyr said:A fourth year (or intern-year, it is really hard to tell from the press release) elective rotation is hardly "increased integration". CAM rotations are common.
Umm, yeah, not so much. You said yourself he "is doing additional work to get a fellowship in sports science", so the DC alone was not sufficent. I would be VERY surprised to hear that the DC is considered acceptable for "post doctoral" work. More likely the school is considering this as routine graduate level study (in pursuit of a degree or certificate). In any event, at the graduate level self designed cirricula are common - I wouldn't credit that as a partnership any more than if chirodoc gains admission to medical school will his education be a partnership between his chiropractic college and his medical school. Your TA is getting graduate training beyond the DC, big deal.
Keep the dream alive!
Actually, while I do believe the press release, it is interesting that USC has not advertised this at all. It is difficult to tell, due to "mixed" terminology (the participants are referred to both as "interns" which would be first post graduate year MDs and as "medical students" which generally describes pre-graduates) who is actually doing the rotations, but in either event, it is certainly elective and USC is keeping it on the "down low". And lets be clear (from the OP):
"While completing chiropractic rotations, the medical interns will be allowed to observe, but not participate in, the discussion, palpation, assessment and adjustment of patients." {emphasis added}.Creating an observational experience for either group (interns or medical students) is very easy. In fact, I know of several schools that electively send students or interns to foriegn countries to observe medical practices that would not be acceptable in the U.S. This is no different.
BTW - I think USC is concerned about their reputation with this program. Here is a challenge - see if you can find any press release originating from USC regarding this program or find any mention of it on a USC website. I couldn't. I think we both know the reason why...
Just keep drinking the kool-aid Jesse!
- H
jesse14 said:simple question: If USC is so worried about their rep then why,as the press realese states, would USC come to the CCCLA to ask them to do rotations in chiropractic? USC MUST see some benifit and importance in it's med students doing rotations in chiro or they simply wouldn't have sighned on for it. I also e-mailed the school (USC) to see if they would provide me with more information on this development. As soon as i hear anything, i'll be sure to let you know.
chirodoc said:It's like kissing your redneck sister. You've got to get the experience somewhere but you don't want everyone to know about it.
.....Just a joke...I don't mean literally your sister since now I know you have a brother in law. I guess I should say kissing "a" erythematic sister. There now it's politically correct.
611 said:The Chiropractic schools do vary greatly especially in their treatment of basic and clinical sciences, as do medical and osteopathic schools domestically and internationally.
611 said:I don't think most Chiropractors want to write presciptions. The Chiropractic colleges I am familiar with ( National in Chicago) and others have a 10 semester (=5 academic years) program. As with any professional, there are good and bad. It's how you apply your educational background when you get out into the field of practice. I have met healthcare providers in every discipline who had to have cheated their way through school because their clinical decisions were not to be believed. Thankfully, that is the minority.
611 said:Again, atleast the schools I am familiar with go 12 months a year. Some of the clinical decisions I have seen over the years would knock your socks off. It makes you "wonder" how they ever got through school. You will see this over the many upcoming years of your practice. I wish all professionals had the dedicated you seem to have. I would certainly hope if I ended up in an ER you or someone with your dedication would be there to help me.
611 said:Again, maybe some schools recruit patients(as many dental schools do for their clinics) if there is not a big patient base, but not the schools I am familiar with. Maybe the schools in rural areas need to do that to get their patients. I can't speak for the schools I am unfamiliar with, I can only speak of the ones I know of first hand.
611 said:Again, I can only comment on that with which I am familiar. Unfortuanately, the quality of education varies greatly from institution to institution. No patient recruitment went on with the institution with which I am familiar. Would a greater variety of exposure to clinical conditions help to make chiropractors better diagnosticians?...definately. The school in Chicago has a program with Rush that allows it's students access to rounds which is a start toward improvement of the clinical chiropractic education.
jesse14 said:simple question: If USC is so worried about their rep then why,as the press realese states, would USC come to the CCCLA to ask them to do rotations in chiropractic? USC MUST see some benifit and importance in it's med students doing rotations in chiro or they simply wouldn't have sighned on for it. I also e-mailed the school (USC) to see if they would provide me with more information on this development. As soon as i hear anything, i'll be sure to let you know.