USMLEs in Australia?

[McLaren]

Does the USMLEs step 1,2 and 3 have a role in applying to a residency in Australia (ie help)? will they take it into consideration?
I know it is a must to set in NZREX, but what about Australia? what exams can increase my chances for having a residency there?

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[nondentist]

I don’t think it has any role to play at all in Australia. But as you know you don’t need any exams to get a job in Australia. (but from this July it is mandatory to pass MCQ part to get registration.
if you want to stay in Australia for longer periods, it is always wise to pass AMC exams. I have passed USMLEs, but none of them seems to care about them in Australia.

 

[jaketheory]

Does the USMLEs step 1,2 and 3 have a role in applying to a residency in Australia (ie help)? will they take it into consideration?
I know it is a must to set in NZREX, but what about Australia? what exams can increase my chances for having a residency there?

the USMLE is a US test for medical licensure in the US. do you really think another country would use it?

In Aus, students graduating from Aus medical schools do not take any licensure exam as in the US. It is not even referred to as licensure in Aus. They call it registration. Only doctors with medical degrees from overseas have to take the Australian Medical Council (AMC) exams. This exam's sole purpose is to ensure that the education of overseas trained doctors is at the level of that provided by Australian medical schools.

 

[McLaren]

thanks for the info...
I know it is obvious that its for the license in the states, but I mean in terms of getting into a competitive position there.
And in New Zealand they require it as I mentioned.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

thanks for the info...
I know it is obvious that its for the license in the states, but I mean in terms of getting into a competitive position there.
And in New Zealand they require it as I mentioned.

Not even Canada uses the USMLEs. again.. they are an exam used only within the US. Some programs may "consider" USMLE scores or "take them into account". However, it is not a focus of the admissions process for most all postgraduate programs outside the US.


Can you please show me where in New Zealand they say they use USMLE scores for registrar (residency) selection? ... If this ->(NZREX) is what you are referring to. Just be aware that this is for registration only (i.e. obtaining a trainee license) and has nothing to do with getting into a specialty program. Sorry.

Specialty training in New Zealand and Australia are both usually overseen/accredited by the same regulatory bodies.

Example: The Royal Australasian College of Surgeons (RACS) accredits training programs in both countries. Hence the requirements for a 1st year registrar (first year resident) position in either country is the same.

If you want to be eligible to apply for a specialty training program as an FMG in Australia. The first thing I would do is sit and Pass the AMC exam, then apply through the specific specialty college that you are interested in. (ex: Surgery – apply through RACS at www.surgeons.org)

If you want to be eligible for a program in New Zealand. You must Pass the NZREX exam through the NZ Med Council. This is what I'm assuming you were referring to when you said they "accept" USMLE scores. Yes, you will need to pass USMLE or they will also accept AMC exam scores from the Australian medical council in lieu of these. (btw: If you want to apply to programs in Australia.. I'm not sure, but I don't think they will accept USMLE scores.. and you will have to sit AMC anyways. So, if you're better off just sitting the AMC exams if you even "think" you may want a position in Australia)


Each specialty program is separate and may have different requirements. Most of them will look at your clinical and research experience, letters of recommendation, etc. Again, you should 1) First.. apply to either the AMC or NZMC for medical registration (ie. License). And then 2) Determine what specialty you wish to pursue and then contact the relavant training body (Royal Australasian College of.. whatever) and enquire as to their requirements.

List of all specialty colleges

Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists
Anesthesiology

Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists, faculty of Pain Medicine
Pain Medicine

Australasian College of Dermatologists
Dermatology

Australasian College for Emergency Medicine
Emergency Medicine

Royal Australian College of General Practitioners
Family Practice

Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Internal Medicine
General Medicine
Cardiology
Haematology
Immunology and Allergy
Clinical Pharmacology
Endocrinology
Gastroenterology and Hepatology
Geriatric Medicine
Infectious Diseases
Medical Oncology
Neurology
Nuclear Medicine
Nephrology
Rheumatology
Clinical Genetics
Sleep Medicine
Palliative Medicine
Thoracic Medicine

Paediatrics and Child Health Division, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Community Child Health
Neonatology and Perinatology
Paediatric Subspecialties (as for Internal Medicine)
Paediatric Emergency Medicine
Paediatric Rehabilitation Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists
Gynaecological Oncology
Maternal Fetal Medicine
Obstetrics and Gynaecology
Obstetric and Gynaecological Ultrasound
Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility
Urogynaecology

Australasian Faculty of Occupational Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Occupational Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Ophthalmologists
Fundamentals of ophthalmic practice
Cataract
Clinical Refraction
Cornea and External Eye Disease
Glaucoma
Neuro-Ophthalmology
Ocular Inflammation
Ocular Motility
Oculoplastics
Paediatrics
Refractve Surgery
Vitreo-Retinal

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Dental Surgeons
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

Royal Australasian College of Medical Administrators
Medical Administration

Australasian Chapter of Palliative Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Palliative Medicine

Royal College of Pathologists of Australasia
General Pathology
Anatomical Pathology
Chemical Pathology
Haematology
Immunology
Microbiology
Oral Pathology
Forensic Pathology
Genetics

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists
Psychiatry

Australasian Faculty of Public Health Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Public Health Medicine

Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Radiologists
Diagnostic Radiology
Radiation Oncology

Australasian Faculty of Rehabilitation Medicine, Royal Australasian College of Physicians
Rehabilitation Medicine

Royal Australasian College of Surgeons
General Surgery
Cardiothoracic Surgery
Neurosurgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Otolaryngology head and neck surgery
Paediatric Surgery
Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
Urology
Vascular Surgery



Hope this helps! Good luck

 

[nondentist]

I would like to correct few things what Dr.Mliisevert told:
1) Even though respective Royal colleges oversees the training and conducts the specialty training examinations, they have nothing to do with registration ( License). You need to obtain license from respective state medical board before you start your training program. AMC also nothing to do with license, you need to get the license from state medical board. After passing the AMC examinations they issue a certificate, based on which you can apply for license with medical board.
2) as I was mentioning before AMC is not required to start the training program. Only exemptions are surgery and GP training. For these two, we should be holding full license and Australian citizen/permanent resident. (for GP rural track training these two conditions are not required). This means we can start any specialty training program ( other than these two) without any examinations ( AMC etc). However from this July they are making it mandatory to pass MCQ part of the AMC to get the registration). In this case you will be getting temporary license for the training program.
3) Competent pathway: recently they introduced this pathway. If you pass all USMLES and had residency training not less than two years in USA, you will be exempted form AMC and will be awarded full license in Australia.
4) New Zealand: if you have USMLEs you will be allowed to take clinical examinations part of the NZFLEX.
5) I don’t know what specialty you are looking for and how long you wanted to stay in Australia, then I can guide you better.

 

[McLaren]

nondentist, jacktheory and Dr.Miisevert thank you very much for clearing the picture, it is helpful.
I'm US citizen IMG, looking for radiology residency in Australia or New Zealand. I will take the AMC examinations or the NZREX...
but I'm a fresh graduate, I need 3 years radiology training. Can I take the training in Australia before registering in RANZCR?
My stay most likely be temporary.I don't know may be I'll change my mind if I like working there.

 

[jaketheory]

nondentist, jacktheory and Dr.Miisevert thank you very much for clearing the picture, it is helpful.
I'm US citizen IMG, looking for radiology residency in Australia or New Zealand. I will take the AMC examinations or the NZREX...
but I'm a fresh graduate, I need 3 years radiology training. Can I take the training in Australia before registering in RANZCR?
My stay most likely be temporary.I don't know may be I'll change my mind if I like working there.

where do you think you will ultimately practice? if you plan to practice in the US, your training in Australia will not likely be acceptable and you would likely have to repeat your radiology training in the US. thus going to aus for the training would be a horrible decision. further, if you want to stay in Aus, as an FMG you will be subject to the 10 year moratorium. Under this you will not be able to access Medicare rebates for 10 years unless you work in an area of need. Thus, you will be excluded from private practice for 10 years unless you work in a rural/remote area.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

There are actually some ways out of this 10 year moratorium. This year there are quite few internationals doing training in areas that would not be considered rural, try downtown Sydney. A friend of mine at USyd got a very nice internship spot at one of the major Sydney teaching hospitals.

If you ask Redshift, he says you can get out of the 10 year block by volunteering a year in a certain designated remote area for a year or two. If you go into certain training programs such as Surgery you will be spending nearly 10 years to fully complete your training. Orthopedics takes about seven years in Australia for example. This moratorium from what I know applies to GPs.

In fact, I met a British GP who came to Australia two years ago and is practicing in Brisbane.

 

[Winged Scapula]

nondentist, jacktheory and Dr.Miisevert thank you very much for clearing the picture, it is helpful.
I'm US citizen IMG, looking for radiology residency in Australia or New Zealand. I will take the AMC examinations or the NZREX...
but I'm a fresh graduate, I need 3 years radiology training. Can I take the training in Australia before registering in RANZCR?
My stay most likely be temporary.I don't know may be I'll change my mind if I like working there.

Why do you only need 3 years of radiology residency? Have you already done 2 years in the US?

At any rate, it would be a mistake to come to Oz for training unless you are sure you would be staying. As noted above, you probably wouldn't get credit for it in the US and wouldn't be able to work here.

 

[jaketheory]

There are actually some ways out of this 10 year moratorium. This year there are quite few internationals doing training in areas that would not be considered rural, try downtown Sydney. A friend of mine at USyd got a very nice internship spot at one of the major Sydney teaching hospitals.

If you ask Redshift, he says you can get out of the 10 year block by volunteering a year in a certain designated remote area for a year or two. If you go into certain training programs such as Surgery you will be spending nearly 10 years to fully complete your training. Orthopedics takes about seven years in Australia for example. This moratorium from what I know applies to GPs.

In fact, I met a British GP who came to Australia two years ago and is practicing in Brisbane.

the 10 year moratorium applies to all FMG's. interns, as well as all other doctors working in public hospitals do not require Medicare provider numbers so as long as they are Australian medical school graduates. thus they are not affected by the moratorium despite being subject to it. this is how one can get a downtown internship position (though that would be still be very hard to get). Exceptions to the moratorium do exist for doctors working in rural/remote areas. Essentially, the more remote you go, the shorter your provider restricions will last. Because specialist training programs can be so lengthy, the effective time subject to the moratorium would only be 10 years minus that required of the training. However, specialists (other than GP's) shouldnt expect any reduction in length of restriction as the more remote areas dont have the population base to warrant specialists.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Why do you only need 3 years of radiology residency? Have you already done 2 years in the US?

At any rate, it would be a mistake to come to Oz for training unless you are sure you would be staying. As noted above, you probably wouldn't get credit for it in the US and wouldn't be able to work here.

Are you sure about that?

Here are a few examples of Australian trained radiologists who it appears were only required to complete 1-2 years of fellowship in the US. They are now US board certified and licensed radiologists.


example 1

example 2

example 3

 

[Winged Scapula]

Are you sure about that?

Here are a few examples of Australian trained radiologists who it appears were only required to complete 1-2 years of fellowship in the US. They are now US board certified and licensed radiologists.


example 1

example 2

example 3

The first and last examples are from radiologists that trained in Oz decades ago and came to the US in the 60s and 70s when it was much easier to move between countries and BC didn't exist. However, I stand corrected. If the OP meets the requirements here he may be eligible for US Board Certification and employment in the US. At any rate, its not as simple as just doing residency in Oz and then being able to come back to the US.

 

[McLaren]

Why do you only need 3 years of radiology residency? Have you already done 2 years in the US?

At any rate, it would be a mistake to come to Oz for training unless you are sure you would be staying. As noted above, you probably wouldn't get credit for it in the US and wouldn't be able to work here.

Sorry my bad, it is 2 years according to:http://www.ranzcr.edu.au/index.cfmhttp://www.ranzcr.edu.au/otds/australia/index.cfm
No I haven't done any radiology training anywhere, I have just completed my Internship.

so can I take these 3 years training in the US without a match (I don't think so) or can I take them in Australia?

 

[McLaren]

the 10 year moratorium applies to all FMG's. interns, as well as all other doctors working in public hospitals do not require Medicare provider numbers so as long as they are Australian medical school graduates. thus they are not affected by the moratorium despite being subject to it. this is how one can get a downtown internship position (though that would be still be very hard to get). Exceptions to the moratorium do exist for doctors working in rural/remote areas. Essentially, the more remote you go, the shorter your provider restricions will last. Because specialist training programs can be so lengthy, the effective time subject to the moratorium would only be 10 years minus that required of the training. However, specialists (other than GP's) shouldnt expect any reduction in length of restriction as the more remote areas dont have the population base to warrant specialists.

this subject is getting complicated everyday..

 

[McLaren]

Are you sure about that?

Here are a few examples of Australian trained radiologists who it appears were only required to complete 1-2 years of fellowship in the US. They are now US board certified and licensed radiologists.


example 1

example 2

example 3

sorry 2 not 3 years

what I mean is part(c)here:http://www.ranzcr.edu.au/otds/nonspecialistquals/index.cfm

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sorry my bad, it is 2 years according to:http://www.ranzcr.edu.au/index.cfmhttp://www.ranzcr.edu.au/otds/australia/index.cfm

I am confused about where you are getting the information that radiology is two years in length in NZ. The website you list above clearly states that training is 5 years in length, and requires 2 internship years and full registration to enter the training (for a total of 7 years after medical school).

No I haven't done any radiology training anywhere, I have just completed my Internship.

Then you are not eligible to enter radiology training in NZ:

Prerequisites for Entry into the Training Program

To be accepted by the RANZCR into the training program, a candidate must:

be a graduate of a medical school recognised by a Medical Board in Australia and the Council of the RANZCR (or have successfully completed both Part I and Part II AMC examinations for overseas medical graduates in Australia)
or
be a graduate of a medical school recognised by the Medical Council of New Zealand and the Council of the RANZCR (or have successfully completed the NZREX for overseas medical graduates in New Zealand)
or
be a graduate of a medical school recognised by the registering authority of the country in which the RANZCR training program is conducted and the Council of the RANZCR
and
be fully registered as a medical practitioner by the registering authority recognised by the Council of the RANZCR, in the state or country in which the RANZCR training program is conducted
and
complete two full years in an approved hospital as an intern/resident.

so can I take these 3 years training in the US without a match (I don't think so) or can I take them in Australia?

Radiology is 5 years of training in the US, which includes the Preliminary Medicine or Surgery year. It is a competitive match and therefore, finding a position outside of the match, while not impossible, is unlikely. You cannot finish radiology in either country in 3 years.

You may or may not get credit for your training outside of the country. If you have done 1 year of internship in the US, you may get credit for that in NZ toward your training but it depends on whether you did a Medicine, Surgical or TY year in the US. Internship is a fair bit different in NZ and OZ with many required rotations that you probably didn't do in the US.

If your question is whether or not it is possible to train in Radiology in Australia or NZ and then come back to the US, it is possible although there are no guarantees obviously.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

sorry 2 not 3 years

what I mean is part(c)here:http://www.ranzcr.edu.au/otds/nonspecialistquals/index.cfm

I agree with Winged Scapula.

If you do wish to apply for a radiology training positon in Australia or New Zealand. I would first obtain my medical registration (license) in Aus or NZ via AMC exams or NZREX. I would then apply for an intern, House officer, resident (not the same as registrar), or other similar general rotating position within a local hopsital for 1 year. During this period you will be eligible to apply for an accredited Radiology training position. If you are lucky, at the conclusion of this one year of general training you will be granted a spot. If you have already completed USMLEs and an internship year in the US then I would obtain and maintain at least one US state medical license. When you complete your Aus/NZ radiology training program, you can then apply to sit your US Board certification exams. Again, you "may" be required to complete an additional year of fellowship in a US program afterwards.

Hope this helps.

 

[McLaren]

yes it does help. thank you all.

 

[McLaren]

If you are lucky, at the conclusion of this one year of general training you will be granted a spot.

what do you mean by this? the spot depends on my evaluation?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

If you are lucky, at the conclusion of this one year of general training you will be granted a spot.

what do you mean by this? the spot depends on my evaluation?

Well of course. You will be evaluated by the RANZCR when you apply to them for a training position.

Prerequisites for Entry into the Training Program

Selection of Radiology Trainees

 

[Marsupilami]

Hi Millisevert,

do you know anything about the competitiveness of Radiology in Oz ? While Rads is very hard to get into in the US, I know that this is not necessarily the case in other countries, that's why I'm asking.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Hi Millisevert,

do you know anything about the competitiveness of Radiology in Oz ? While Rads is very hard to get into in the US, I know that this is not necessarily the case in other countries, that's why I'm asking.

Hey.. I'm sorry I don't have any reliable information on this one for you. It is pretty competitive here as well, but not as competitive as some of the other specialties. Family(general) practice is actually a very attractive option in Australia and New Zealand because of the lifestyle and salary. (In some areas of Australia GPs are making well over 700kUSD/year).

If you are interested in Radiology and are a US graduate.. and you don't mind traveling to live and work in Australia/New Zealand , then applying to complete your radiology training here might not be a bad idea.

I have met a few Canadians and Americans here who are completing their training. I've met one American who completed his med degree and gen surg training in the states and is now completing his cardiothoracic fellowship here, and another who is doing plastics.

 

[Marsupilami]

Hey.. I'm sorry I don't have any reliable information on this one for you. It is pretty competitive here as well, but not as competitive as some of the other specialties. Family(general) practice is actually a very attractive option in Australia and New Zealand because of the lifestyle and salary. (In some areas of Australia GPs are making well over 700kUSD/year).

If you are interested in Radiology and are a US graduate.. and you don't mind traveling to live and work in Australia/New Zealand , then applying to complete your radiology training here might not be a bad idea.

I have met a few Canadians and Americans here who are completing their training. I've met one American who completed his med degree and gen surg training in the states and is now completing his cardiothoracic fellowship here, and another who is doing plastics.

Hi Millisevert,

as German medical student I'm currently looking at my options for the time after graduation. Due to family ties, I have always though of going to the US for residency , but the more I think of it, the less attractive it seems to go down that route. Most American MD's I have met in the past lead rather miserable lives, despite being well off financially. I want to work in order to live, not the other way around, so I thought that residency in Australia would make more sense, even though I would have to go through the immigration process and face longer training.

Rads is just one field I find interesting, others are medicine + subspecialty and neurology.
BTW, are you an American/Canadian who moved to Aus ?

Regards,
Mars

 

[neulite]

I want to work in order to live, not the other way around, so I thought that residency in Australia would make more sense, even though I would have to go through the immigration process and face longer training.

Regards,
Mars

I can very much see this being an American citizen. It's not just medicine, Americans are fueled by getting rich. not just wealthy but in ridiculous amounts. It's evident by these lifestyles of the rich and famous type shows that are constantly on here. They imply if you work hard enough you can get the giant mansion and 10 cars. When in reality no one needs this.

 

[Marsupilami]

I can very much see this being an American citizen. It's not just medicine, Americans are fueled by getting rich. not just wealthy but in ridiculous amounts. It's evident by these lifestyles of the rich and famous type shows that are constantly on here. They imply if you work hard enough you can get the giant mansion and 10 cars. When in reality no one needs this.

You are right. However, it is also the "system" that simply forces people to think about money 24/7 in the US, imho. I can very much understand that, given the huge debt a lot of graduates accrue, money is a major concern and that, interestingly, a lot of docs are even willing to max out those 80 hours during residency to get through it as fast as possible so that they can finally get to the high salaries. Having read the thread about the 56h week ( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=524809 ), it really made me think about my US plans again. And even after residency, most docs I have met so far were working like robots.

 

[devilishangel]

Hi,
I'm still a med student in India, and currently i was just trying to formulate a plan regarding residency..

initially, i intended to go to the US (no surprises eh )... however, I feel that it would be prudent to be well informed of my options other than the US...

So, what I really need to know is what is the procedure for applying for a specialist training in Australia and what are the different processes that one has to go through???

I intend to specialise in Paediatrics, btw...

Hoping for some help!!

Thanks

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I can very much see this being an American citizen. It's not just medicine, Americans are fueled by getting rich. not just wealthy but in ridiculous amounts. It's evident by these lifestyles of the rich and famous type shows that are constantly on here. They imply if you work hard enough you can get the giant mansion and 10 cars. When in reality no one needs this.

Not only do you not need it.. you might actually find it increasingly difficult to obtain and maintain this lifestyle in the US as the American Economy goes south. The US is still a great place to be (compared to some areas of the world)... but it definitly isn't the land of opportunity it once was.

Check this out:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhLPNdjyjyg[/YOUTUBE]

Everyone says get the "f" out while you still can.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I heard rumors that there are some authorities in Australia who want to push for Australian physicians to be treated as equals to US physicians, this would mean that Australian medical graduates would be on equal footing with US graduates for undertaking residency training in the US. Its still not there but might be in a few years.

Also the structure of the USMLE will change substantially, the Step 1 will be removed.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I heard rumors that there are some authorities in Australia who want to push for Australian physicians to be treated as equals to US physicians, this would mean that Australian medical graduates would be on equal footing with US graduates for undertaking residency training in the US..

First of all.. what do you mean. Are you suggesting that Australian medical grads are not equal to US medical grads???

Secondly.. even many of the American and Canadian students who do attend medical school would prefer to stay in Australia to complete their residency training because of more money$$$, training just as good, lifestyle in Oz is good compared to States and Canada (weather, beaches, etc). (except for the usual reason for wanting to go back to be with/near family).

If by that you mean... that there is a push to develop greater reciprocity of accreditation and recognition of training then I agree with you.

Also the structure of the USMLE will change substantially, the Step 1 will be removed.

I haven't heard this... any sources? interesting.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

When I meant by equals, I meant that in the future Australian graduates who wish to complete US residency training can do so without getting an ECFMG, they like Canadian graduates would be the only other foreign medical school graduates that would be treated as equals of US MDs with regards to residency placement. Right now Australian graduates have to have their ECFMG to complete US residency training. In the future they will not consider Aussie grads as IMGs in the States, this will have a very big positive impact on those who wish to complete residency training in the US, it could also potentially make it easier for Canadians who wish to go home after finishing their degree.

This is still something being debated, it still has not yet come to pass.

 

[gmacpac]

That would be great!!! AU treated as locals in USA!!
Whats the source of this information?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

When I meant by equals, I meant that in the future Australian graduates who wish to complete US residency training can do so without getting an ECFMG, they like Canadian graduates would be the only other foreign medical school graduates that would be treated as equals of US MDs with regards to residency placement. Right now Australian graduates have to have their ECFMG to complete US residency training. In the future they will not consider Aussie grads as IMGs in the States, this will have a very big positive impact on those who wish to complete residency training in the US, it could also potentially make it easier for Canadians who wish to go home after finishing their degree.

This is still something being debated, it still has not yet come to pass.

Sounds great! Thanks JoeNamaMD Keep us updated.

 

[jaketheory]

When I meant by equals, I meant that in the future Australian graduates who wish to complete US residency training can do so without getting an ECFMG, they like Canadian graduates would be the only other foreign medical school graduates that would be treated as equals of US MDs with regards to residency placement. Right now Australian graduates have to have their ECFMG to complete US residency training. In the future they will not consider Aussie grads as IMGs in the States, this will have a very big positive impact on those who wish to complete residency training in the US, it could also potentially make it easier for Canadians who wish to go home after finishing their degree.

This is still something being debated, it still has not yet come to pass.

I could not ever see this happening. I think the American AMA, the LCME, and the AGME system would never allow physicians with such a different training system to simply by-pass the normal routes. caribean schools would be the most similar and they surely won't be allowed to skip ecfmg. canada is reasonable as their schools are accredited by the LCME. those organizations love their power and would not give it up. no US organization would ever concede that another country's medical schools are to be considered as equals to US accredited schools. not because the US doesnt think they are good schools, but only because of the extremely stringent and costly accreditation process in the US. noone would even put in the time and money to ensure that the accreditation standards in another country are equal to that in the US, because noone would gain from it (ie. noone in a position to make such comparisons would make any money from it).

So I am highly suspect of it. were it true, that would be great. but i do not seeing it happening in my life time.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Right now its not the case, but in the near future...it might be. I was just talking with one of my professors who is actually from the States, they were talking with the AMA. Already Australian trained physicians have no real issues practicing in Canada if they chose to do so, Canada's requirements are more stringent than the USA. Canadian MDs are not considered IMGs.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I think the American AMA, the LCME, and the AGME system would never allow physicians with such a different training system to simply by-pass the normal routes. caribean schools would be the most similar and they surely won't be allowed to skip ecfmg.

Caribbean schools have no formal accreditation process.. there is equally no formal postgraduate training options in the Caribbean.

Canada's system as JoeNamaMD has already pointed out is more stringent than the USAs. Australian graduates are readily accepted as equivalents in Canada. Both Australia and Canada have very similar accreditation standards and systems of postgraduate training. If Canada's programs are accepted in the US, then logically it would be quite acceptable for Australia as another English speaking 1st world commonwealth nation who has a very similar system and standards to develop a fully reciprocal agreement between the 3 countries.

Residents get paid almost twice as much in Australia then they do in either Canada or the US too.

 

[shan564]

I don't see any reason for the lack of reciprocity. If anything, LCME and ACGME should just look into recognizing the Australian schools and residencies in the same way that they do for US/Canadian schools/residencies. I'd love the opportunity to be able to move back and forth between Oz and the US whenever I so please... I'd like to have the opportunity to come back to the US at some point in the future if I do a residency in Oz.

 

[sunchosen]

Hi all. I'm an Aussie citizen in my final year of med school in USA. I miss australia and would like to do my residency there. I tried taking the AMC MCQ exam this July but was not eligible given that I haven't graduated from med school yet. This mean that I won't be able to take it until July 2009, which won't be in time to apply for the 2010 January intake. Do any of the hospitals offer July intake? I also have some questions about the application process. I've been looking at the postgraduate medical council websites and info there can be confusing. I hope someone can answer the following questions for me.

1. Is there anyway to work in the medical field or begin training without taking both the AMC exams. I heard that the waiting time for clinical part of AMC exam is 9 months. Is that true? I also read that if there are vacant spots left after the match, hospitals will offer it to you even if you have only taken the MCQ exam. Is there any truth to that?
2. what is a competitive AMC exam score to be a strong candidate for the bigger hospitals in melbourne and sydney?
3. I don't think my med school requires USMLE step 2 for graduation. Should I still take it if I don't plan to practice in USA?
4. what percentage of internship applicants actually get matched into a program?
5. Monash Medical Centre in Melbourne has this IMG medical student placement program. http://www.southernhealth.org.au/pd/HMOMgt/img_program.pdf
It says upon successful completion, employment as M.O will be offered. Does anyone know anything about this "successful completion" rate? They don't really say how you'll be graded or what is considered as "successful completion".
6. What do hospitals look for when they open an application? eg. research experience? letters of recommendation? clerkship evals during med school? AMC score? extracurricular activities?
7. How difficult is it to pass the AMC exams? I've heard horror stories about studying 8 months to a year to pass this thing. Considering I'll be fresh out of med school, what are my chances?

I'd really appreciate any response to this post. Thanks

 

[redshifteffect]

An an intern you will be working in a public hospital therefore will not require a medicare number.

The moratorium has a lot of loopholes - such as going to a rural area for a few years, where they have the ability to reduce your moratorium to as little as 1-3 years.

Also this moratorium starts from when you get your PR, or when you are fully registered (which ever comes last), so all of your training counts towards the moratorium.

Finally in most specialities it is possible to do 100% public work. Salaries are still much better then in places like Canada even doing 100% public work - however private practice is more lucrative. Nothing stopping you from doing public work until your moratorium is complete.

Lastly it's not rural areas, it's an "area of need". There is a big difference, there are places even in large metropolitan areas that are in need. For example large chunks of Adelaide is in need. Redcliffe in Brisbane is in need....etc.

 

[redshifteffect]

Dr. Millisevert,

Its' also more then about the pay. I'm currently working with a US board certified Neurosurgeon, and he told me horror storries about the long hours they work in the US. Some of the registrars here complain about long hours, but they wouldn't last a day in the US (according to him). He also told me about the fact that indemnity is about 1/3 of your salary. That's just crazy!

What I think was worse though was the fact that ward rounds there would start at 4am, and consultants (or attendings) had to go back and do their own notes, because at the end of the day they were just as liable as their residents (registrars). *Edit* Also forgot to add he told me, ward rounds started that early because you had to be knife-to-skin by 7am. If you weren't you'd get written up, and 3 write ups and you could get suspended from your training program. You could also forget about cancelling a theatre case - high risk of the hospital being sued. Sounds like a very high pressure environment to work in.

 

[redshifteffect]

Secondly.. even many of the American and Canadian students who do attend medical school would prefer to stay in Australia to complete their residency training because of more money$$$, training just as good, lifestyle in Oz is good compared to States and Canada (weather, beaches, etc). (except for the usual reason for wanting to go back to be with/near family).

If by that you mean... that there is a push to develop greater reciprocity of accreditation and recognition of training then I agree with you.

It's funny how much the mentality has changed on these forums in such a (relatively) short period of time. 7 years ago I don't think anyone was even considering staying. Looks like that trend is changing. I wonder what's going to happen when all the new graduates from Australian schools start graduating though, and what will happen to the overseas students at that time?

 

[Marsupilami]

Dr. Millisevert,

Its' also more then about the pay. I'm currently working with a US board certified Neurosurgeon, and he told me horror storries about the long hours they work in the US. Some of the registrars here complain about long hours, but they wouldn't last a day in the US (according to him). He also told me about the fact that indemnity is about 1/3 of your salary. That's just crazy!

What I think was worse though was the fact that ward rounds there would start at 4am, and consultants (or attendings) had to go back and do their own notes, because at the end of the day they were just as liable as their residents (registrars).

Rounds starting at 4 am ? I have heard this, too, but honestly thought this was a joke.Absolutely sickening.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Rounds starting at 4 am ? I have heard this, too, but honestly thought this was a joke.Absolutely sickening.

Its not a joke. Not so much anymore what with work hour restrictions, but its not unusual to come in at 0500 and start seeing your patients as a medical student or intern. Chief rounds (ie, with the Chief resident) are usually between 0600 and 0700 and attending rounds later.

I remember as a medical student on Surgery in Oz and being told by my US fellowship trained faculty, "we better not hear of you coming in at 0530 to round on the patients like they do in the US. Our patients need their sleep!". But once I returned to the US, it was back to rounding at that time or earlier. I think the earlier I ever started (when not on call), was 0330. If on call, I would start seeing ICU patients at midnight to get through them all by morning (because you would be interrupted with traumas and then get in trouble if you hadn't seen the patients by am rounds).

At any rate, things have gotten better but in surgery for example, since the OR cases start at 0700 or 0730 you have to see the patients before then so as to have a plan for the day, so it might mean coming in pretty early to gather the info and examine the patient, change dressings, etc.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

It's funny how much the mentality has changed on these forums in such a (relatively) short period of time. 7 years ago I don't think anyone was even considering staying. Looks like that trend is changing. I wonder what's going to happen when all the new graduates from Australian schools start graduating though, and what will happen to the overseas students at that time?

I think it has to do with the more global economy, the weakening Dollar(which is actually now starting to stabilize), and other issues such as lifestyle.

 

[LeoMartinipo]

3) Competent pathway: recently they introduced this pathway. If you pass all USMLES and had residency training not less than two years in USA, you will be exempted form AMC and will be awarded full license in Australia.

Can you do this two years training in Norway, before completing all steps of USMLE 1-3?
I extended my new question here too.