USNews Rankings

[BioDoc]

Are the ranking legitimate? Its only for graduate school right? A lot of undergrads base their undergrad rankings off of US News and was wondering if graduate rankings trickle down to their undergrad levels.

And does anyone think US News is taking over on what undergrads think is prestigious and what is not? Ultimately this leads to them controlling whatever school students decide to attend right? I am just wondering how many people based their undergrad school just because of these rankings.

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[shiftingmirage]

Yes and no. I think it depends on what you consider makes a school great. US News will usually say how they got to their conclusions. I think one time I saw it say endowment carried a factor of 20% of the total score. I would argue endowment is a pretty crappy way to measure the educational quality of a university. Older universities are going to have larger endowments than newer ones. I believe research is also one of the factors, maybe another 20%. Well, if I want to major in history, do I really care that my institution just got 10M $ grant for stem cell research? Not so much. So big research institutions focus on research more than teaching. So UG classes take a back burner to finding the cure for cancer. Great for society, not so great for the UG student.

Look at what info they use to rank the schools, and decide if those are important to you. (If you do have a copy sitting in front of you, could you post how they create the rankings?)

 

[schrizto]

Huh? U.S. News has rankings for both graduate school and undergrad.

 

[schrizto]

(If you do have a copy sitting in front of you, could you post how they create the rankings?)

They don't release how they calculate the rankings, I believe.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I believe they do, in fact, tell you how they calculate them, or at the very least they tell you the factors that go into calculating them.

However, it's all very manipulatable, and a tiny difference in their rating can make a big difference in ranking just because all of the schools near the top all have very high ratings. Once you reach a certain range (arbitrarily, maybe say the top 25), all of the schools near the top are "good" schools, and beyond that, you just have to decide what you want in a curriculum, where you want to live, etc, to determine what the best school for you is.

 

[Ableton]

I believe they do, in fact, tell you how they calculate them, or at the very least they tell you the factors that go into calculating them.

I believe that you are correct to believe schrizto is wrong in believing they don't release how they calculate the rankings.

 

[MegaProjectile]

Are the ranking legitimate? Its only for graduate school right?

Cleveland Clinic thinks it is. They are proud to proclaim that they are the number one heart center in the nation as you drive through their hospital. In fact, most hospitals trip over themselves for name recognition on US News.

While US News might be an anathema on SDN, hospitals and universities compete fiercely behind-the-scenes for a good spot.

 

[longhorn09]

Is the US news' rank of medical schools only base on the amount of research funding?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Cleveland Clinic thinks it is. They are proud to proclaim that they are the number one heart center in the nation as you drive through their hospital. In fact, most hospitals trip over themselves for name recognition on US News.

While US News might be an anathema on SDN, hospitals and universities compete fiercely behind-the-scenes for a good spot.

I mean, it's good pub. Whether it actually means anything is highly debatable.

Is the US news' rank of medical schools only base on the amount of research funding?

No, there are other factors too. I believe they have residency directors give the schools a rating on how highly they regard graduates of a school, but there's a pretty low respondance rate each year. But I think research funding is the biggest factor.

 

[Tots]

When I applied to Undergrad I didn't even know what US News was.... I just applied to all the UCs(and I was surprised to learn that there were UCs other than LA and Berkeley ) a few Cal-States and Norte Dame( because my family was catholic)

Never heard of Brown, Cornell, Duke, NYU, Dartmouth, until I got into college; I was such an oblivious high school student.

So it might affect some students but it certainly didn't affect me!

 

[MegaProjectile]

Is the US news' rank of medical schools only base on the amount of research funding?

Quality Assessment: Comprises of 40% of total score based on feedback a school receives from deans of other medical schools and residency directors.

Research Activity: Comprises of 30% based on NIH dollars a school and affiliate hospitals receives and amount of research dollar per faculty.

Student Selectivity: 20% of total score based on Mean MCAT Score(13%),Mean Undergraduate GPA (6%), and Acceptance Rate ( 1%).

Faculty Resources: 10% of total score based on faculty to student ratio of a school.

 

[MegaProjectile]

I mean, it's good pub. Whether it actually means anything is highly debatable.

Publicity is good but CC is really the number one heart center in the world though . Phenomenal clinicians and their mortality output matches the hype.

No, there are other factors too. I believe they have residency directors give the schools a rating on how highly they regard graduates of a school, but there's a pretty low respondance rate each year. But I think research funding is the biggest factor.

Nope. See above.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Nope. See above.

Technically, you're correct, and I didn't know the exact formula. However, if you think about it, in reality research dollars is the most variable number out there that can really be affected. All of the top schools have a "quality assessment" between 4.0 and 5.0, and those numbers aren't very helpful to truly differentiate the top schools; whether a top 20 school got a 4.2 vs. a top 10 school getting a 4.4 isn't going to make a huge difference in rating at the end of the day. If all of the schools have a high rating, then it doesn't really play a big factor in the ultimate calculation. That's why research funding winds up carrying so much real weight.

 

[schrizto]

I believe that you are correct to believe schrizto is wrong in believing they don't release how they calculate the rankings.

lol, wordiest way to say "I agree" ever.

 

[just one]

.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Their website says this:

Peer assessment (weighting: 25 percent). The U.S. News ranking formula gives greatest weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's undergraduate academic excellence. The peer assessment survey allows the top academics we consult—presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions—to account for intangibles such as faculty dedication to teaching. Each individual is asked to rate peer schools' academic programs on a 5-point scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished). Those who don't know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly are asked to mark "don't know." The peer score used in the rankings is the average score of those who rated the school on the 5-point scale; don't knows are not counted as part of the average. In order to reduce the impact of strategic voting by respondents, before calculating the average score we eliminated the two highest and two lowest votes each school received. Synovate, an opinion-research firm based near Chicago, in spring 2009 collected the data; of the 4,273 people who were sent questionnaires, 48 percent responded. This is up slightly from last year's 46 percent response rate.

Retention (20 percent in national universities and liberal arts colleges and 25 percent in master's and baccalaureate colleges). The higher the proportion of freshmen who return to campus the following year and eventually graduate, the better a school is apt to be at offering the classes and services that students need to succeed. This measure has two components: six-year graduation rate (80 percent of the retention score) and freshman retention rate (20 percent). The graduation rate indicates the average proportion of a graduating class who earned a degree in six years or less; we consider freshman classes that started from 1999 through 2002. Freshman retention indicates the average proportion of freshmen who entered the school in the fall of 2004 through fall 2007 and returned the following fall.

Faculty resources (20 percent). Research shows that the more satisfied students are about their contact with professors, the more they will learn and the more likely it is they will graduate. We use six factors from the 2008-09 academic year to assess a school's commitment to instruction. Class size has two components: the proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students (30 percent of the faculty resources score) and the proportion with 50 or more students (10 percent of the score). In our model, a school benefits more for having a large proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students and a small proportion of large classes. Faculty salary (35 percent) is the average faculty pay, plus benefits, during the 2007-08 and 2008-09 academic years, adjusted for regional differences in the cost of living (using indexes from the consulting firm Runzheimer International). We also weigh the proportion of professors with the highest degree in their fields (15 percent), the student-faculty ratio (5 percent), and the proportion of faculty who are full time (5 percent).

Student selectivity (15 percent). A school's academic atmosphere is determined in part by the abilities and ambitions of the student body. We factor in the admissions test scores for all enrollees who took the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT and the Composite ACT score (50 percent of the selectivity score); the proportion of enrolled freshmen (for all national universities and liberal arts colleges) who graduated in the top 10 percent of their high school classes or (for institutions in the universities—master's and baccalaureate colleges) the top 25 percent (40 percent); and the acceptance rate, or the ratio of students admitted to applicants (10 percent). The data are for the fall 2008 entering class. In order to better represent the entire entering class, we are now using a value that takes into account the admissions test scores of all entering students who took the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT and the Composite ACT score. Previously, we used only the scores of the test that had the majority of students taking it. The scores of the test that the majority of students take are displayed on the ranking table.


Financial resources (10 percent). Generous per-student spending indicates that a college can offer a wide variety of programs and services. U.S. News measures financial resources by using the average spending per student on instruction, research, student services, and related educational expenditures in the 2007 and 2008 fiscal years. Spending on sports, dorms, and hospitals doesn't count, only the part of a school's budget that goes toward educating students.
Graduation rate performance (5 percent; only in national universities and liberal arts colleges). This indicator of "added value" shows the effect of the college's programs and policies on the graduation rate of students after controlling for spending and student characteristics such as test scores and the proportion receiving Pell grants. We measure the difference between a school's six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2002 and the rate we predicted for the class. If the actual graduation rate is higher than the predicted rate, the college is enhancing achievement.

Alumni giving rate (5 percent). This reflects the average percentage of living alumni with bachelor's degrees who gave to their school during 2006-07 and 2007-08, which is an indirect measure of student satisfaction.

To arrive at a school's rank, we first calculated the weighted sum of its scores. The final scores were rescaled: The top school in each category was assigned a value of 100, and the other schools' weighted scores were calculated as a proportion of that top score. Final scores for each ranked school were rounded to the nearest whole number and ranked in descending order. Schools that receive the same rank are tied and are listed in alphabetical order. Our rankings of accredited undergraduate business programs and engineering programs are based exclusively on peer assessment data gathered from the programs' deans and senior faculty members.

More info at:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educ...-calculate-the-college-rankings.html?PageNr=1

OP- I guess the question is do you see any flaws/omissions with their methods? Do you agree with the % allotments?

 

[randombetch]

I personally used the US News rankings as a factor in selecting my undergrad, and I will again for medical school (although not a very important factor).

Here is an EXCELLENT criticism of the US News rankings, written by the president of Stanford:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

 

[JJMrK]

I believe they do, in fact, tell you how they calculate them, or at the very least they tell you the factors that go into calculating them.

However, it's all very manipulatable, and a tiny difference in their rating can make a big difference in ranking just because all of the schools near the top all have very high ratings. Once you reach a certain range (arbitrarily, maybe say the top 25), all of the schools near the top are "good" schools, and beyond that, you just have to decide what you want in a curriculum, where you want to live, etc, to determine what the best school for you is.

I think I agree with you. From what I've seen, it's hard to see a difference in terms of facilities and quality of education when you're comparing top ~30 schools.

 

[randombetch]

I think I agree with you. From what I've seen, it's hard to see a difference in terms of facilities and quality of education when you're comparing top ~30 schools.

There is a HUGE difference between facilities and quality of education when comparing UCLA/UVA/Tufts/UNC and Harvard/Yale/Princeton.... Huuuuuge difference.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I personally used the US News rankings as a factor in selecting my undergrad, and I will again for medical school (although not a very important factor).

Here is an EXCELLENT criticism of the US News rankings, written by the president of Stanford:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

what a fanfckingtastic letter. i feel i need a cigarette after that

 

[randombetch]

what a fanfckingtastic letter. i feel i need a cigarette after that

LOL, I posted it on my facebook after I read it.

 

[causalinference]

I personally used the US News rankings as a factor in selecting my undergrad, and I will again for medical school (although not a very important factor).

Here is an EXCELLENT criticism of the US News rankings, written by the president of Stanford:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

Apparently the letter fell on deaf ears since it was written in 1996.

 

[JokerMD]

There is a HUGE difference between facilities and quality of education when comparing UCLA/UVA/Tufts/UNC and Harvard/Yale/Princeton.... Huuuuuge difference.

? how do you know? have you actually gone to schools in both of those "leagues" to make a comparison?

 

[chman]

I think one must be at least a little skeptical about rankings of anything. Always consider what the forces behind it might be.

With that being said, I consider U.S News to be a good source, but not the be all end all.

 

[dingyibvs]

what a fanfckingtastic letter. i feel i need a cigarette after that

First, it was written in 1996, a full 13 years ago. It is entirely possible in this day and age that information can be more readily available to USNews for a much more accurate rankings. Perhaps, that is, they're no longer so "far from discovering the method [to rank schools statistically]" I certainly don't see the massive changes in student/faculty ratio anymore, for example.

Second, while upon first glance, a school rising/dropping 3-4 spots in one year may seem "spurious", but it's not so inconceivable when you consider that there really isn't that much difference separating schools ranked 3-4 spots apart from each other, and one large donation or such can perhaps be the difference.

Third, the quality of education of a school can indeed change a good deal over just a short few years. If a school moves its focus and suddenly starts putting massive amounts of money into a program, it can indeed change quite drastically. Adding a hundred million dollars a year can easily attract many top projects and professors over the time of a few years, and it can drastically change the number of quality opportunities a school may offer to a student.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the USNews rankings are the be all end all for judging schools, just that they're not nearly as baseless as that letter indicated.

 

[chman]

Second, while upon first glance, a school rising/dropping 3-4 spots in one year may seem "spurious", but it's not so inconceivable .

In fact, schools are often so close that they are tied on any given year.

 

[CoolWhipp]

I personally used the US News rankings as a factor in selecting my undergrad, and I will again for medical school (although not a very important factor).

Here is an EXCELLENT criticism of the US News rankings, written by the president of Stanford:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

Excellent read.

I base my life on USnews. Every morning that I eat breakfast, I must re-rank my cereal choice in a USnew's ranking-like fashion before consuming any one of them. Top 5 for everything in my life, or bust.

 

[chman]

Excellent read.

I base my life on USnews. Every morning that I eat breakfast, I must re-rank my cereal choice in a USnew's ranking-like fashion before consuming any one of them. Top 5 for everything in my life, or bust.

I was going to go have a BM, but the toilet was not in the US News top five. Looks like I am going to have to wait.

 

[JJMrK]

There is a HUGE difference between facilities and quality of education when comparing UCLA/UVA/Tufts/UNC and Harvard/Yale/Princeton.... Huuuuuge difference.

I'm not really sure what you're even saying. Yale is like 2 spots ahead of UCLA, Tufts is around 50, and Princeton doesn't even have a medical school.

 

[randombetch]

I'm not really sure what you're even saying. Yale is like 2 spots ahead of UCLA, Tufts is around 50, and Princeton doesn't even have a medical school.

Oops, thought we were talking about undergrad!

Yeah, top 25 med schools are pretty much equal

 

[chman]

Oops, thought we were talking about undergrad!

Yeah, top 25 med schools are pretty much equal

Even for undergrad I'm not so sure there is that big of a difference. Plus different schools have better departments, and better professors. For instance, and this is just made up, the biology department at UCLA could have a better one than Yale, and better professors in that department, yet still be ranked lower. Therefor, if you planned on majoring in biology, it would be in your best interest to go to the lower ranked school with the better department. Further, you know that all the professors at the top 20 institutions have many publications, awards, etc. It is only humanly possible to teach so well. At a certain point it is just about clout, pr, and alumni donations.

 

[Myuu]

Cleveland Clinic thinks it is. They are proud to proclaim that they are the number one heart center in the nation as you drive through their hospital. In fact, most hospitals trip over themselves for name recognition on US News.

While US News might be an anathema on SDN, hospitals and universities compete fiercely behind-the-scenes for a good spot.

I would suggest you not drive through CCF as they are not really equipped to handle trauma.

But, yeah, hospitals are huge on rankings/awards/younameit.

 

[randombetch]

Even for undergrad I'm not so sure there is that big of a difference. Plus different schools have better departments, and better professors. For instance, and this is just made up, the biology department at UCLA could have a better one than Yale, and better professors in that department, yet still be ranked lower. Therefor, if you planned on majoring in biology, it would be in your best interest to go to the lower ranked school with the better department. Further, you know that all the professors at the top 20 institutions have many publications, awards, etc. It is only humanly possible to teach so well. At a certain point it is just about clout, pr, and alumni donations.

Well, I agree that UCLA's and Yale's biology program are pretty comparable. Try comparing UVA's music program with Yale's music program, or UCLA's math program with Princeton's math program, or Tuft's psychology program with Stanford's psychology program.

I think the class sizes and availability of courses alone makes a big difference between the top tier schools and highest tier schools. I hear quite a bit about how difficult it is to graduate on time at UCLA because of issues regarding class enrollment.

 

[chman]

Well, I agree that UCLA's and Yale's biology program are pretty comparable. Try comparing UVA's music program with Yale's music program, or UCLA's math program with Princeton's math program, or Tuft's psychology program with Stanford's psychology program.

I think the class sizes and availability of courses alone makes a big difference between the top tier schools and highest tier schools. I hear quite a bit about how difficult it is to graduate on time at UCLA because of issues regarding class enrollment.

Dude, it was a hypothetical comparison. I don't know anything about the biology department at either. I just wanted to illustrate an example.

Yes, class sizes do matter and are probably the biggest advantage to going private.

 

[CoolWhipp]

As long as there are ignorant people is this world, the vast majority of people will always put ivy leagues at the top regardless of any logical thought presented to them. Ivy league (and Ivy-like league) grads have it better.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Also, just because a school is ranked #1, doesn't mean you will like it. Schools have personalities. Perhaps you want to be surrounded with nerds that don't know how to socialize, never drink, and do hw all day. Perhaps you want to be at a school that tailgates before everyfootball game. Maybe you want a school that gives you freedome to design your own curriculum. Maybe you want a school with none/a little/ a lot of greek life. Class size is important, but if you don't like the people in your class, you wont enjoy the college experience as much.