USUHS NAVY or ARMY ?

[tdinh12]

I'll have my interview at USUHS in a few weeks and I'm trying to decide which brand to go (I'm leaning toward Navy and Army ). I'm from California and it would be nice if I could get back here during my 3rd/4rd year, internship, residency. Can anyone from either Navy or Army give me some current information about the likelihood of getting into a residency vs going to a GMO tour for each brand. What are some factors that affect the possibility of getting to the preferred location of choice? Any information that you wish you know before you accept the school's offer? Thank you!

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I won't pretend to know the answer, but when we had our orientation, they told us that the Navy is slowly phasing out GMOs with the exception of dive and flight. However, they also said that while more residents will do straight through training, they still need people to do operational medicine, so the difference will effectively be that you could do your fleet time after residency rather than before. I believe that's closer to what the Army does.

So you likely won't escape it, you'd just be residency trained when you go.

Edit: also depends on the specialty. Some will likely almost always require a gmo tour.

 

[tdinh12]

I won't pretend to know the answer, but when we had our orientation, they told us that the Navy is slowly phasing out GMOs with the exception of dive and flight. However, they also said that while more residents will do straight through training, they still need people to do operational medicine, so the difference will effectively be that you could do your fleet time after residency rather than before. I believe that's closer to what the Army does.

So you likely won't escape it, you'd just be residency trained when you go.

Edit: also depends on the specialty. Some will likely almost always require a gmo tour.

Does certain specialty have a higher chance of going straight to residency? for example family med vs anesthesiologist ?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Does certain specialty have a higher chance of going straight to residency? for example family med vs anesthesiologist ?

Like I said, I'm no expert. I worked with a GMO who has applied for rads twice and didn't match either time. She told me rads is absurdly competitive. I think there is a Navy anesthesiologist on here who can give more insight into anesthesiology specifically, but family med is one of the few that offer straight through contracts upfront. EM has begun doing categoricals too apparently, but I don't know what percentage of applicants get categorical versus intern only spots and won't speculate.

On the other hand, the internists I know went straight through. However, I asked about going straight into fellowship and was told that is very uncommon.

Things also fluctuate and may be different in 4 years, but I think it is likely that competitive specialties like rads will stay the way they are.

 

[HighPriest]

The Army will probably not send you on a GMO tour unless you fail to match, switch residencies, or ask for a GMO tour. That being said, you will almost certainly not be stationed in California, unless you're at Ft. Irwin, which is reportedly the third layer of hell. Also, don't join the Army. The Army sucks for the myriad of reasons that I and others have listed elsewhere on this site.

 

[Perrotfish]

I won't pretend to know the answer, but when we had our orientation, they told us that the Navy is slowly phasing out GMOs with the exception of dive and flight. However, they also said that while more residents will do straight through training, they still need people to do operational medicine, so the difference will effectively be that you could do your fleet time after residency rather than before. I believe that's closer to what the Army does.

The Navy has been 'phasing out' GMOs for longer than current applicants have been alive.

 

[HighPriest]

Everybody has a plan to do everything. The Army has been almost ready to start a new PT test format since the mid-80s.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The Navy has been 'phasing out' GMOs for longer than current applicants have been alive.

Fair enough. As I said, just reporting what I was told at orientation. You guys know better than me.

 

[WernickeDO]

Ahhh...the GMO phase-out. The kind of general malaise that the hopeful possess and the non-select lament.

Take your pick: Get stuck in a $#!tty operational job before you gain any real skills or after residency when the aforementioned skills rot. If you join the military, you will ALWAYS be at risk for one of these jobs, either as a intern (GMO) or as a board certified doc.

OP if your goal is to live and practice in California then avoid the military. Yes the Navy has spots in CA but there's no guarantee you will get that assignment despite your native affiliation. If you stay civilian then you can apply to CA schools and when you graduate apply to CA residencies.

And yes, Ft Irwin is the 3rd layer of hell. Leave it to the Army to find the worst section of CA and set up shop there.

 

[68PGunner]

As a prior enlisted soldier in the Army, stay the hell away from the Army. Join the Navy if you have to choose one between the two branches. Army is 3x worse than the Navy in term of everything. Don't get suckered by your recruiter bragging about Ft. Irwin in California. I have been to the hellhole known as NTC 5 times throughout my 4 years in the Army. There's not a single word to describe the magnitude of suck in that hole. It's like a nuclear wasteland in the middle of nowhere.

 

[deleted707454]

Whats the best Army base?


(i.e. where should I top spot my residency app)

 

[Gastrapathy]

Tripler, Madigan, DC

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Ahhh...the GMO phase-out. The kind of general malaise that the hopeful possess and the non-select lament.

Take your pick: Get stuck in a $#!tty operational job before you gain any real skills or after residency when the aforementioned skills rot. If you join the military, you will ALWAYS be at risk for one of these jobs, either as a intern (GMO) or as a board certified doc.

OP if your goal is to live and practice in California then avoid the military. Yes the Navy has spots in CA but there's no guarantee you will get that assignment despite your native affiliation. If you stay civilian then you can apply to CA schools and when you graduate apply to CA residencies.

And yes, Ft Irwin is the 3rd layer of hell. Leave it to the Army to find the worst section of CA and set up shop there.

Yeah, that was what I got out of it and tried to include in my post. Basically, even if you don't get sent to the fleet after intern year, you're likely to go at some point. I'm honestly not sure if I'd rather go after intern year or finish residency first.

 

[backrow]

I'm honestly not sure if I'd rather go after intern year or finish residency first.

Primary care: after residency is better in my opinion.

Surgical or non primary care: before. Going after can be a big time career downer


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Primary care: after residency is better in my opinion.

Surgical or non primary care: before. Going after can be a big time career downer


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That's a good point. I asked Col Buller (the current CO at USUSH) about it, since he's an OB/GYN. He said it is rough coming back after a gmo tour and having to relearn procedures you haven't done for a couple years.

 

[BlackFrancis33]

Argument(s) against joining the Navy - I see my Navy colleagues flocking to Admin positions >> Army to make the next rank. The O-5 promotions have been brutal in the Navy compared to the Army. In the Navy, if you do a 2 year GMO after intern year (likely), then a 2-4 year residency, then serve the last 2 years of your 4 year commitment, you will only receive your full specialty pay for 2 years. The equivalent Army path is med school-residency-then 4 years of receiving full specialty pay. I can't argue with JRTC, NTC, and the post-residency operational tour in the Army, which are rough.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

If you are doing FM and fail to match in the military match, can't you just match in the civilian match? How do people pursuing FM or peds or other less competitive specialties do GMO tours unless volunteering to do one?

 

[TheEarDoc]

Everybody has a plan to do everything. The Army has been almost ready to start a new PT test format since the mid-80s.

If most of us are running 2 miles in the time they want for war eagle than either,
1. The enemy has overrun us
2. They air dropped some twinkies 2 miles out and the first fatty there gets the whole lot

 

[pgg]

If you are doing FM and fail to match in the military match, can't you just match in the civilian match?

No. A non-select is a trip to GMO-land.

Military members must be selected for a deferment in the military match in order to enter the civilian match.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

No. A non-select is a trip to GMO-land.

Military members must be selected for a deferment in the military match in order to enter the civilian match.

Is that pretty rare to be selected for deferment?

 

[pgg]

Is that pretty rare to be selected for deferment?

I wouldn't say "rare" so much as extremely variable and unpredictable. The number of deferments available depends on projected needs for the specialty at that particular moment, which might be zero or some or a few but not a lot.

And bear in mind that the military match isn't like the civilian match. The civilian match merges program and applicant rank order lists in a way such that, by nature of the algorithm, the best applicants tend to wind up at their top choices. That is generally how it goes in the military match; however, a competitive applicant who ranks "deferral" #1 might find himself selected to an inservice residency because the PDs want the best residents in their programs. It's a selection process not a neutrally arbitrated match process.

In other words, it's probably unwise to approach the military match with any level of confidence about obtaining a deferral.

 

[HighPriest]

Medium-rare

 

[j4pac]

PM&R is essentially impossible to match in the Navy. There are always many Navy docs that GMO and GTFO...but that process is even more intimidating under USUHS. If someone was remotely interested inPM&R and wanted to go USUHS, I’d probably tell them to go the Army route. But yeah...there are VERY few reasons I’d even think that Army over Navy would be a good decision.

 

[pawprint]

If you are doing FM and fail to match in the military match, can't you just match in the civilian match? How do people pursuing FM or peds or other less competitive specialties do GMO tours unless volunteering to do one?

"Less competitive specialties". Please be aware that what may be not-competitive in the civilian world is not the same as the military match. For Navy pediatrics, for example, there were 30 people who applied this year for 14 spots, and they did not grant any civilian deferments for peds . Meaning that for the >50% of people who applied who did not match pediatrics, they were not allowed to apply to civilian pediatric programs. They were given another specialty. Civilian match rate for pediatrics is in the upper 90's%, but is one of the most competitive specialties in the military (<50% this year).

For the Match process, The Navy requires everyone rank 2 specialties that they would like to apply to (and can rank as many programs inside each specialty). They also require everyone to apply to ERAS, so that people who don't match any programs in their #1 ranked Navy specialty, #2 ranked Navy specialty, and no other spots were available in any Navy residency, they should plan on having a back-up in the civilian match. However, they will work their hardest to make sure the Navy has all of its spots filled before it grants a deferment because you did not have a good enough application to match into the military specialty of your choice. If you rank dermatology and pediatrics as your #1 and #2, and you don't match into either and neither specialty has civilian deferment spots, you may find yourself in a random spot in another specialty that has an opening.

The nice thing about the Navy is that if you fail to match into your specialty of choice for intern year, you can go do a GMO and reapply and have almost a guaranteed spot in the specialty of your choice when you come back. Or you can do GMO and get out and apply to civilian residency where you will also have a good chance of matching into your specialty of choice. So its not the end of the world if you don't match into what you want initially.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

"Less competitive specialties". Please be aware that what may be not-competitive in the civilian world is not the same as the military match. For Navy pediatrics, for example, there were 30 people who applied this year for 14 spots, and they did not grant any civilian deferments for peds . Meaning that for the >50% of people who applied who did not match pediatrics, they were not allowed to apply to civilian pediatric programs. They were given another specialty. Civilian match rate for pediatrics is in the upper 90's%, but is one of the most competitive specialties in the military (<50% this year).

For the Match process, The Navy requires everyone rank 2 specialties that they would like to apply to (and can rank as many programs inside each specialty). They also require everyone to apply to ERAS, so that people who don't match any programs in their #1 ranked Navy specialty, #2 ranked Navy specialty, and no other spots were available in any Navy residency, they should plan on having a back-up in the civilian match. However, they will work their hardest to make sure the Navy has all of its spots filled before it grants a deferment because you did not have a good enough application to match into the military specialty of your choice. If you rank dermatology and pediatrics as your #1 and #2, and you don't match into either and neither specialty has civilian deferment spots, you may find yourself in a random spot in another specialty that has an opening.

The nice thing about the Navy is that if you fail to match into your specialty of choice for intern year, you can go do a GMO and reapply and have almost a guaranteed spot in the specialty of your choice when you come back. Or you can do GMO and get out and apply to civilian residency where you will also have a good chance of matching into your specialty of choice. So its not the end of the world if you don't match into what you want initially.

What is it that determines if someone is allowed to apply for civilian residencies? Is it the specialties you ranked in the military match? The quality of the applicant trying to match? The need for GMO’s? Or just random?

 

[SirGecko]

The nice thing about the Navy is that if you fail to match into your specialty of choice for intern year, you can go do a GMO and reapply and have almost a guaranteed spot in the specialty of your choice when you come back. Or you can do GMO and get out and apply to civilian residency where you will also have a good chance of matching into your specialty of choice. So its not the end of the world if you don't match into what you want initially.

That point may be a bit overstated. While doing a GMO can help your application it by no means gauruntees a specific specialty. You still need to be competitive for the specialty and the navy has to want another person trained in that specialty. There are definitely people still don’t match for what they want after gmo tours.

 

[pawprint]

What is it that determines if someone is allowed to apply for civilian residencies? Is it the specialties you ranked in the military match? The quality of the applicant trying to match? The need for GMO’s? Or just random?

Its specialty dependent. Each year there is a memo given out by BUMED that describes how many spots are open for each specialty, how many deferments for each specialty are allowed, and more. Typically for the specialties that are granted deferments, the deferment spots are the most competitive. It varies though. 2 years ago I knew a person applying for Navy surgery and she ranked deferment as her last choice of placement for surgery (she wanted to do residency in the Navy). She was actually not given a Navy spot and she had not applied to ERAS because she thought that the deferment spots would go first and she would at least get something in the military. So she kind of got screwed over because the military granted her civilian deferment for residency but she had not applied for any civilian residencies. It was because of that situation, and others similar to it, that it is now required everyone apply to ERAS, even if the specialties you apply for aren't allowed deferments. Just in case the last few spots the Navy has in another specialty you didnt initially rank just happen to be for civilian deferment.