USUHS vs. HPSP

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AubreyMaturin

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I am stuck with an enviable dilemma; I have to CHOOSE between medical schools.
I am trying to decide between USUHS or a civilian school + HPSP. I have given it lots of thought, spoken with many people in charge of both the HPSP and USUHS, and am aware of the primary differences between the two (obligations and so forth). However I am interested in more opinions from people who have actually done either program.

After spending about two hours reading the discussions on this chat site, I decided to join up and post.

So I would appreciate any feedback on weather I should choose USUHS or stay civilian and shorten my commitment.




"I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor"
--Lord Horatio Nelson
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AubreyMaturin said:
I am stuck with an enviable dilemma; I have to CHOOSE between medical schools.
I am trying to decide between USUHS or a civilian school + HPSP. I have given it lots of thought, spoken with many people in charge of both the HPSP and USUHS, and am aware of the primary differences between the two (obligations and so forth). However I am interested in more opinions from people who have actually done either program.

After spending about two hours reading the discussions on this chat site, I decided to join up and post.

So I would appreciate any feedback on weather I should choose USUHS or stay civilian and shorten my commitment.




"I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor"
--Lord Horatio Nelson
Click to expand...

You said you're most interested in people who've done one of those programs. I haven't, yet, hoping to enter school for class of 2006.

I have done almost 8 years in the Air Force, now, though. If you're at all unsure, I'd say do HPSP. Less committment = more flexibility later. I racked up an 8 year committment from pilot training and then realized that my dream of becoming a doc was really the right road for me - but I don't have any control over my life until October 2006 at the earliest.
 
Go HPSP for the reasons listed by MoosePilot. Why commit yourself now to a 7 year payback when SO many things will change between now and when you graduate? I would think signing up to give away 4 years of your future would be enough at this point. You can always sign up for more time once your commitment is done but it doesn't work the other way. Once you accept that commitment, you'll be in for that many years no matter what. Maybe even longer if there's stop-loss.
 
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As a USUHS grad (Navy), here's my take on your dilemma. If you have prior military experience or have had SIGNIFICANT exposure to the military environment, ie a military brat, then you're already familiar with the benefits/disadvantages of the military life. If you willing to wholeheartedly accept the phrase "the needs of the military come first", and realistically envision making a career out of military medicine then obviously go to USUHS. Also, realize that the 7 year commitment really doesn't include internship/residency, so you're actually looking at 10 - 12 years depending on your chosen specialty. HPSP will definitely offer more freedom/flexibility, and Heeed! makes a valid point about not knowing what the future holds.

However, if you know the military lifestyle is for you, or you have a family already when heading to med school - strongly consider USUHS. I could blather on incessantly about why I liked it (and will upon request), but without knowing anything else about you I would say look first at HPSP. Figure out what you'll additionally gain by going to USUHS and see if that difference is worth the extra 5 to 7 years commitment.
 
So basically, I am a military brat. My grand father is a retired vice admiral, and my father is a retired spruance class commander. Weather USUHS or HPSP, I wll join the NAV Y. However, I have lived my entire life by my own rules, so I am worried that the military may be a bit of a culture shock.
I have done a lot of research on this choice and continue to do so. I belive that my reasons for wanting to join the military are sound and minimaly idealistic (I won't list them here because they are not unique). I am interested in almost every aspect of medicine, so I think I could fill my interests based on the needs of the NAVY. I look foward to doing a GMO, infact; this is one the drawing points for me. I am happy to take the good with the bad (as mentioned in previous threads) and make the most of it. My outlook on life will always be positive and I look foward to serving my country, rather than myself.
It seems to me that weather I go USUHS or HPSP, I will spend a substantial amount of my career in the service, so may as well go USUHS and reap the benifits.
BTW, for any USUHS grads, what do you thik that the benifits of USUHS are???

I know that much of what I say conflicts with everything else that I say, but that is why this decision is difficult for me.
 
Helodoc,
Please elaborate on what you liked about USUHS. I plan on attending in 2-3 years and would like to hear as much as I can from a prior student. I work with USUHS staff, students and graduates but it's always good to see if the stories match up. So far they have.

AM,
Please read carefully into what has been posted. If you want to make the military a career then go USUHS if not then HPSP. There's the 4 years of school, then 1 intern, then GMO (payback), then residency (additional years), then GMO, then final payback. In the end, say you do a general surgery residency you are looking at having spent 17 years in the military, unless my understanding is way off:
4 years USUHS
1 year intern
2 years GMO
5 years residency
2 years GMO
3 years final payback
17 years TOTAL time....

You would still have to reach 20 without the years at USUHS counting which means 7 more years totaling 24 years of active service at retirement. You are hereby a retiree and civilian life will never be as good as the military used to be or something to that effect.

I think the payback for USUHS is a bit much for someone not 100% sure. If you have a family or know for certain what the military is all about I would choose HPSP. My apologies but I do not believe that being a military dependent prepares you for this decision. Active duty is different from reserve which is different from dependents. Life is too short to commit your youth to the military and not receive something in return. The military is what you make it but you are part of the military and not an individual. OFF TOPIC: What's the deal with the "Army of ONE"???? I fail to understand their point. Just doesn't make any sense to me. Army of one??? So there are about 500k armies of one in the Army? :confused:
 
AubreyMaturin said:
I am stuck with an enviable dilemma; I have to CHOOSE between medical schools.
I am trying to decide between USUHS or a civilian school + HPSP. I have given it lots of thought, spoken with many people in charge of both the HPSP and USUHS, and am aware of the primary differences between the two (obligations and so forth). However I am interested in more opinions from people who have actually done either program.

After spending about two hours reading the discussions on this chat site, I decided to join up and post.

So I would appreciate any feedback on weather I should choose USUHS or stay civilian and shorten my commitment.




"I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor"
--Lord Horatio Nelson
Click to expand...


I think you should also take into account which civilian medical school you're talking about here. If you get into Harvard, I'd say go there. Remember that FAP is an option as well. And then you'll have much more control over your residency.
 
Another thing to remember when you are a 4th year medical student...

USHUS students, Academy grads, Prior military experience, and ROTC students are given priority in the match. This year alone, almost 20% of applicants in the Air Force match were not given the residency of their choice. Out of the 9 Air Force HPSP students at my med school, 5 of us will be doing filght surgery in a year instead of doing our chosen specialties (i.e Anesthesia, Ortho, ER, etc.). What sucks even more is some people that were doing Ortho or ER did not even bother applying for an Intern year. Then mid-december rolls around, they find out they were not granted their Ortho or ER spot, and they are stuck scrambling for a prelim year. Luckily, I am Anesthesia. Even though I was not granted permission to do a residency, I had already applied for an Intern year because Anesthesia requires it anyway. Now before anybody says what med school did you go to, I do go to a DO school. However, on the interview trail I have met applicants from Hopkins that were also not granted residencies and will be stuck doing flight surgery. Do not believe the recruiters or the HPSP website when they tell you 98% get their first choice of residency. NOT TRUE, VERY FALSE, WRONG, BULLS**T!!!!

...BUYER BEWARE, unless you are willing to the possibility of not being able to do a residency for at least 2 years (3 if you count internship) after med school. Sorry to sound like I am complaining, but I hate to see people being mislead by recruiters who really have no clue what military GME is about and what it involves.
 
My opinion is to go USUHS or FAP if you must sign up. If you join HPSP you won't have your first pick of military residency, and you can get seriously screwed that way by not getting a residency in the field you want and not getting a military or civilian residency (depending on which you actually end up wanting). It's only 3 more years, so why not? If you're signing away 8 years of your life (residency + attendingship) 4 years from now (for a total of 12 years! You must have one hell of a crystal ball to see what you want in the next 12 years!), why not tack on 3 more to do it right? Either way you should look at yourself as career military, considering that your training in the military is going to totally color the rest of your medical life even if you leave.

Just my two cents... As for the end of Crooz's post, I would say that neither HPSP or USUHS is appropriate for someone who isn't 100% sure.
 
Wow thank you all for your comments.

I am especially glad to hear from people who have negative outlooks, or are not totally gung-ho-pro-bush-pro-war-zealouts (Neuronox, I am talking to you!!!), becasuse you help balance the scale. Everyone else I have corresponded with focuses only on the positive, and I want my eyes wide open when I make my decision. Make no mistake I recognize almost all bias, and I like want to have lots of different perspectives. On that note: Neuronix, I have read many of your postings on may diffrerent threads, and I want to thank you for your advice on this one (it was actually positive). You echoed many of my thoughts.

I have been leaning towards USUHS, and I continue to do so. Both the positives and the negatives about military servcies are leading me to think that USUHS is best. My reasoning for this choice is the following:

- I realize that I will be commited to the military and all it has to dish out. Although I am generally anti-establishment, I am very patriotic and I will be honored to serve my country as an officer and a doctor. It seems that by accepting finacial assitance I will be obligated to serve a large part of my career (if not the majority of my career) as a military officer, therefore I should "be all I can be", and not pussyfoot around thinking, "maybe I will stay in the service, maybe I will leave after my commmitment." If I go HPSP and get stuck doing two GMO tours before I leave to go civie for residency, I am postponing my career financially and academicaly. Whereas If I do a GMO tour, then a military residency, well then I have already served 6-7 years; and have therefore unwittingly commited to a career in the military. I may as well take out the loans, suffer for a while, and be able to make my own choices. I am entering this knowing that my career, successful or not, will ultimately be in the military.

- It seems that USUHS will give me a leg-up over HPSP. I will learn the rules of the game and how to play it before I roll the dice.

- The best civilian schools that I can hope to get into at this point are TUFTS, BU, UMASS, Miami, or Jeff. First tier schools, but not Harvard or Hopkins. And I don't have specific interest in research, so the point is moot. Or maybe the point is pride; I may be too proud to settle for a "good school", and USUHS holds a unique prestige that Harvard and Baylor can't compete with.

- Because of my background (high-school dropout and general rebel, who worked his way into Tufts and now Medical school), military life will be a culture shock for me. I agree that having family in the service does not qualify me to know military life. In fact, I hav'nt got a clue about it. But becasue of my personality and experience, I will adapt and succeed.

- Finally, ideals: for an instant gradification gen-y-er, there are very few causes to belive in, fewer to fight for, and almost none to die for. However, I would be honored to do all of thee above for for my country, and all I will be doing as a doctor is helping the people who are really doing the beliving, fighing, and dying.


Thanks for reading my short story. If anyone thinks I am a complete wak-job for this line of reasoning pleas let me know.



"Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment."
--Rita Mae Brown
 
Just one point - the patriotism "hoorah" stuff is easily lost in the day to day. Don't count on that to get you through 20 years of service.

You say once you have 7 years of service it's like you've chosen a full military career. I feel kind of the same way, having put in about 8 at this point, but just remember there *is* a big difference between 7 years and 20 years (for those good at math, you might realize it's 13 years difference). That's enough of a difference to start a baby and have him about to enter high school, having grown up in the same place vs. him growing up in 4+ different places. Big difference.

I wouldn't recommend a 7 year committment to anyone who isn't absolutely sure. Because even if you're absolutely sure now, you'll likely feel differently 14 years from now (4 USUHS +3 residency +7 committment).
 
"Learn from the experienced, not the learned" Experience counts for more than all the books, posts, or conversations about the military. Trust MoosePilot when he says that you will lose the patriotism in the day to day. Unless you are with a group of ultra patriotics, namely the Special Forces types I would not expect the patriotism to take you very far. Even these men are doing for their fellow friend and for the job more than just "God & country".

In my estimates USUHS is more of a commitment than HPSP. There have been many HPSP's who never spent anymore than 4 years in the military as a GMO and then got out and entered a residency, kissing the military goodbye forever. I have never met a USUHS grad who didn't do a residency. There are perks to being a USUHS student mainly "head of the line" priviledge in residency slots and such. If one is interested in research USUHS is where it's at. In one way or another the research goes to, thru, or from USUHS and making some contacts will help when it comes time to get the grant reviewed, approved, and managed.

Whichever route you choose I'm sure you'll do fine. The anti-establishment thing isn't bad in the military. It allows us to think outside of the norm. Too many people thinking alike is many time a dangerous thing. Trust me there were plenty of times we would start on a task only to have the Doc come by and give us his/her un-military idea which was better and quicker.

There are pluses and minuses to everything. My best piece of advice is once you make your decision, stick to it. If you experience things which you weren't expecting then come here and tell others. This way more and more people will enter the military with both eyes open instead of what's been going on in years past.
 
MoosePilot said:
Just one point - the patriotism "hoorah" stuff is easily lost in the day to day. Don't count on that to get you through 20 years of service.

Thanks Moose uh... pilot guy.
Your experience is invaluable to me. I agree that Idealism gets lost on the day-to-day. I am by no means an Idealist; there kind of like republicans, out of touch with reality (but at least they're commited). I am, infact, a raging pragmatist. The patriotic stuff is only one of many factors that affect my decision, and I do not see my views as neccesarily patriotic. I see my views as selfish: At the end of the day, I have to do what I feel is right, and what I belive in. Living as a highly paid uptown neurologist is one possible future for myself, but I think that my interests are better served by helping those who need it most. In my opinion, that means marines (and other servicemen, or servicewomen, or uh... servicepeople.). It does'nt really matter if this line of reasoning is right or wrong, becasue I am the only person that I have to convince. Besides as one of my potential collegues from Harvard said, "someone has to join the service, 'cause it sure as **** won't be me."

You are right that I may not feal the same in 14 years, but who can really know how they will feal in 14 years. I am not 21, young minded, and driven by ideals. I am old enough to be in touch with myself and what I want out of life ( and before you poke fun, I am only 28). Everything is a risk, and the payoff of a successful military career is more rewarding to me than the financial compensation that I would recive as a civilian. And if I don't get the "payoff" in the service, I will suck it up and do what I have always done, make the most of what I have.

Oh yeah, and having a kid grow up in four different places is fine look at me, I turned out fine. RIGHT!!!?? HUH!!?? #$ck, **$#, #$%@ it, muther$##@@.





"I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor"
--Lord Horatio Nelson
Click to expand...
 
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AubreyMaturin said:
Neuronix, I have read many of your postings on may diffrerent threads, and I want to thank you for your advice on this one (it was actually positive). You echoed many of my thoughts.
Click to expand...

Glad to be of service. I joined this forum because of the lack of information about MD/PhD programs online. But, since the woman I love signed up for HPSP with alot of misinformation, I'd like to do my best to fill in the gaps there as well.

Good luck!
 
Thanks again NX,
I think that the mis-information (I dare say lies in some cases) is probably the source of the most to the disgruntledness that I have read about on this forum. It really is a shame, becasue I don't thiink these people need to be lied to in order to get them to serve. We are going to be doctors, the upper echeleon of thinking people (or so I would like to believe). I think that if all recruiters where straight with us, and the miltary published more accessable info, then the service would get more quality out of the people it recruits and fewer disgruntled employees.
But then again, what the hell do I know, I have'nt even started the program yet.

I am sorry that you are being drug along with your woman. I hope that the two of you can make the most of it. It can't be all bad.
Whenever any one I know asks me about HPSP, I will direct them to this website, and I will inform my premed advisors to also direct them here. But I also hope that the disgruntled employees don't take over the forum. I like to hear from zealots as well.

Also, I am still looking to hear from a disgruntled USUHS grad. There don't seem to be any. Maybe that is because more than 50% of USUHS acceptences fo to acadamy grads and those with prior miilitary experience, so they don't have disgruntled employess due to my afformentioned theory.
 
Just for the record, I am not really disgrunteled. I admit, I was very upset after the match results for the Air Force were put on line. But, the more I think about it, I am happy that I will be doing a 4 year flight surgery tour. This way I can start my residency right after I finish this, with only loans from undergrad to pay. I know everybody says that you should not choose to be HPSP for the money, but I have friends at my school that will be graduating with a 250,000+ debt. At first I wanted to do only Peds and everybody knows that this is one of the lowest paying specialties. This combined with my wife's loans, I would have been paying this off forever. One more reason that I am happy that I was granted the flight surgery tour is because of the quality of certain GME specialties. For example, Anesthesia is of low quality in the Air Force compared to civilian programs. There are good points to the program (100% board pass rate, good schedule), however they are outweighed by the bad points (Lack of case variety, mostly healthy patients, very few attendings that "like" to teach). In addition, attendings that are not at Lackland AFB, might be inclined to say that their skills are going to waste due to lack of exposure to case variety. I am only speaking from second hand. A couple of former military Anesthesiologist told me that by not matching in the JSGME, it is probably for the better. Furthermore, I am not even going to reapply through the JSGME next year, two years from now, or 4 years from now. If it is like this in Anesthesia, it might also be like this in other surgical specialties. However, if you want to do some kind of primary care, the military is great. Great pay, benefits, no malpractice insurance, no threat of getting sued, retirement possibility, and good continuity (possibly). This is what attracted me in the first place, not to mention the call to serve my country. I just would have liked to have a place like this where I could have easily of obtained info about the HPSP scholarship. I am not saying I would have chosen differently, but I could have made a more informed decision. Hope this helps.



AubreyMaturin said:
Thanks again NX,
I think that the mis-information (I dare say lies in some cases) is probably the source of the most to the disgruntledness that I have read about on this forum. It really is a shame, becasue I don't thiink these people need to be lied to in order to get them to serve. We are going to be doctors, the upper echeleon of thinking people (or so I would like to believe). I think that if all recruiters where straight with us, and the miltary published more accessable info, then the service would get more quality out of the people it recruits and fewer disgruntled employees.
But then again, what the hell do I know, I have'nt even started the program yet.

I am sorry that you are being drug along with your woman. I hope that the two of you can make the most of it. It can't be all bad.
Whenever any one I know asks me about HPSP, I will direct them to this website, and I will inform my premed advisors to also direct them here. But I also hope that the disgruntled employees don't take over the forum. I like to hear from zealots as well.

Also, I am still looking to hear from a disgruntled USUHS grad. There don't seem to be any. Maybe that is because more than 50% of USUHS acceptences fo to acadamy grads and those with prior miilitary experience, so they don't have disgruntled employess due to my afformentioned theory.
Click to expand...
 
sethco said:
USHUS students, Academy grads, Prior military experience, and ROTC students are given priority in the match.
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I cant comment on the Air Force or the Navy, but the match stats show that Army HPSP people do the same if not slightly better in the match than USUHS.

Ed
 
edmadison said:
I cant comment on the Air Force or the Navy, but the match stats show that Army HPSP people do the same if not slightly better in the match than USUHS.

Ed
Click to expand...


Here is the link for the Air Force match results. The thing to look for is everybody that was given a Transitional year deferred. Those are all of the people that were not given residencies thru the match and also the people that only wanted an internship year (i.e Undecided).

http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/medical/PhysicianEducation/default.htm
 
Again, I will write from my perspective as a USUHS grad who had about 8 years prior military experience before going back to med school. I agree, you don't find too many disgruntled USUHS grads. I feel sure there are some out there, but I think the majority of folks who decide on USUHS know they actually (insert gasp here) like the military.

Why did I like my USUHS experience?
- Good education. While USUHS will probably never gain name recognition outside the military, it provided a well-rounded medical education. While it's easy to compare the "hard" data such as avg MCAT scores, ratio of applications to acceptances, etc, when looking at med schools, the real question I had when choosing HPSP versus USUHS was "How will I compare to civilian med school grads?". During internship, you realize that everyone graduates med school with essentially the same fund of knowledge. I felt on par with my fellow interns. Another good way is look at the great equalizer - USMLE scores.

Student cohesiveness. While interviewing at USUHS, I had already been accepted to civilian med schools and I kept hearing from students and staff that one of the biggest draws is the student body. It's true. Not to sound like a chorus from "Koom Bayah", but students there really look out for one another. You'll come to find out that military medicine is a fairly small community and you'll cross paths with each other more than you imagine. So, if anyone is struggling, they will get help because who knows when that person is treating your spouse or child a few years later.

Good perks. I've got to admit, as altruistic as I'd like to be - USUHS is quite the good deal. Let's see, free everything, all active duty benefits and oh, by the way, you're getting paid about $45,800 per yr to GO TO MED SCHOOL (assuming no prior service and single). If you're married - $48,300. If you're married and prior service - $55,600.

Great student body variety. Let's see, in my class about 1/2 had no prior experience, so they provided the "untainted" perspective. In the other half were a good number of academy and ROTC grads. The remainder had varying degrees of prior service to include 3 pilots, 1 F-14 RIO, 4 nuclear submarine officers, 2 surface warfare officers, a few special forces guys (to include a Ranger and USMC Force Recon scout sniper), and several prior enlisted folks. There were enough different backgrounds and personalities to avoid the in-bred mentality that could easily be fostered in such a place.

Great educational opportunities. Again, USUHS is not a revered academic powerhouse, however you can easily have access to the best and brightest. Due to the proximity of the National Inst of Health, Natl Cancer Institute and Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, we were exposed to a good mix of clinical and research oriented lecturers. You'll have the opportunity to travel all around the country during third year clerkships. Then your 4th year electives can be quite varied as well. Oh yeah, did I mention you're getting re-imbursed for most all of this travel?

Great location. You are within about 10 miles of downtown DC. While that is not so cool in the event of a nuclear, chemical or biological attack, otherwise DC is a great place. Sure, DC area traffic is about as fun as tertiary syphilis, but you learn to work around it. Great places to see and better places to eat.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Helo Doc,
I think that USUHS is more of an acedmic powerhouse than "US news and world report" give it credit for. I have been accepte to several 1st tier civilian schools, i.e. Boston University ,which boasts an acceptance rate of 4.5% (good ego boost for me) compared to USUHS ~15-20% acceptance. However, like all stats, this is misleading. BU gets ~10,000 applicatnts compared to USUHS at ~1000. Bu gets more applicants because it is a civilian "possibility", while USUHS is all military. The USUHS application pool is automatically smaller becasue not that many med school applicants want to joint the service, and even fewer want to make the USUHS vs. HPSP commitment (i.e. extended service obligation). Therefore, these stat don't speak of relative prestige, they show the relative number of pre-med students who are interested in a military career.

Also, Since the average applicant applyies to ~15-18 schools. The national acceptance rate average is ~7%, but that is only because the average applicant applies to 15-17 schools. It is not as if only 7% of students get accepted to med school and the other 93% don't make it. In face about 30-40% of all ~50000 applicants will get into at least on school.

I guess my point is that the quality of eucation cannot be determined by the numbers (but you already know that). The numbers don't lie, but the interpreters do.
stats are like a good persuasive arguement, "don't tell the whole turth."
If I tried, I could certainly come up with a stat that shows USUHS as more competitive than most med schools.

Moreover, USUHS has gained significant national name recognition probably due to the quality of its teaching facilities. In fact a few old-snooty Harvard docs I know have told me that they USUHS if very prestigous and reccommend it academically over my other options (BU, GW, TUFTS, UMASS). Also USUHS to Harvard is like apples to oranges, you cannot even compare the same residency matches.

Finally, if USUHS made a point to woo "US News and World Report", as many other schools continue to do, I am sure that their public estimation would increase even more (its all about advertising). But USNandWP is aimed at the masses, while USUHS is only for a select few.

I use this line of reasoning in order to stisfy massage my own ego, rather than to pose an arguement. But feel free to argue!!! And rest assured that the relative prestige of this school is not one of my primary considerations for choosing USUHS, but would be lying if I said I did'nt care at all (in the long run it won't even matter).

I am more intersted in first hand experience than statistics...
...and obviously I have a lot of free time on my hand to hang out in chat rooms.

My final USUHS Vs. HPSP decision is as follows:
USUHS or no military at all. Go all the way or stay home. If settle on the military, I will pursue a career in the military; otherwise I can stay civilian and make more money.





Wesley: "Truly you have dizzying intelect."
Vincini: "WAIT TILL I GET STARTED!!!"
 
Your decision is textbook perfectionist fallacy. It isn't either or. You can do:
1. USUHS & get out eventually
2. USUHS & retire
3. HPSP & get out eventually
4. HPSP & retire
5. FAP & get out eventually
6. FAP & retire
7. DOD civilian contractor

The reason I'm against the "USUHS or bust" philosophy is it doesn't last. I haven't met many who come in as lifers who make it to retirement. This is expecially true of physicians. The physicians who I know that have reached retirement or close to it were predominantly non-traditional. Former pilots, PhD's, tank commanders, nurses, administrators...The HPSP physicians I know who are lifers have left the clinical side of medicine and are now policy makers, adding or removing some of the redtape which now exist.
 
Crooooz,
Agreed. I am not a perfectionist, but I take being called one a complement. A little perfectionism would probabably do me some good. You are right about the military not neccesarily being a career for me, even through USUHS. But my mind set is to shoot for successful career in the service, and then see what happens. I do not need the military to pay for school as I thought I did. I hope to make a career out of the service, and I realize that I may get pushed into retirement one year before my benefits kick in, or I may leave as soon as I serve my commitment. I understand the possibilities, and I am learning about the odds.

Also, I don't know what you mean by non-traditional. I think I am non-traditional: I did not graduate high school, so I spent about 6 years in under-grad. I am married, and have worked in the "real world" since I was fifteen years old.

I like to have options; but no matter what the options, I have to make decisions on them. More options means more decisions, more complications, and ultimately I will be happy just about anywhere.
The way I see it: I can spend the next 20 or so years (probably some of the best of my life) trying to make it in the civilian world, trying to make as much money as I can to pay off my loans and seeking security; measuring success by $$$. Or I can spend the next 20 in the service, not worry as much about the money, hopefully gain experience that I would not get anywhere else, and measure success by my actions and accomplishents. Somewhat Idealistic, I know, but it is also very logistical.

Thanks for the crisicism and keep sending more. I may not argue well, but I can justify my way out of anything.
 
I completely agreed with Croooz statement. Having spent some years in the U.S. Army before medical school I encountered many military physicians who are only retiring because they already spent "X" number of years in the military before USUHS or HPSP.

To Aubreymaturin: First congrats on getting into many good medical schools! I admit USUHS is more than "useless" school that some people refer it to. However, instead caring about other superficial matters I would ask myself if I truly want to dedicate my life to become a military physcian who is willing to die for U.S. If you are allowing these superficial matters to bother you then perhaps consider thinking your decision over and have a talk with military physicians. It appears that you already made up mind to attend the USUHS, but you want to derive some personal assurance to fill up your little insecurity that you've made the right decision from military folks...Just my personal observation.
 
To Aubreymaturin: First congrats on getting into many good medical schools! I admit USUHS is more than "useless" school that some people refer it to. However, instead caring about other superficial matters I would ask myself if I truly want to dedicate my life to become a military physcian who is willing to die for U.S. If you are allowing these superficial matters to bother you then perhaps consider thinking your decision over and have a talk with military physicians. It appears that you already made up mind to attend the USUHS, but you want to derive some personal assurance to fill up your little insecurity that you've made the right decision from military folks...Just my personal observation.[/QUOTE]


True about the "little insecurities", but if I wanted reassurence, I would not ask military folk. I would ask yes-men (you know tools). I'm not seeking assurence, only opinions, criticism, and maybe a good arguement. I learn more when I am wrong about something, or when people don't agree with me (by that logic I should really smart!!!).

I have spoken with several military physicians, and they say all good things. I am not bothered by the superficial stuff, but I am still seriously thinking things over and will continue to do so (I never stop thinking, sometimes that is a problem.) My decision is not final until I sign.

The truth is I have way too much time on my hands this week, and I like to argue.


I suppose the initial purpose of this thread has been lost, so I should reitterate my questioning:

Other then the lenght of commitment (whcih is blatently obvious), what would be the advantages and dissadvanges of attenging USUHS vs. HPSP?

I am interested in points of view from people who have gone through (or are going through) either process. There are many obvious answers that I don't need help looking at. I want details. I want perspectives.

Everyone on this thread has been helpful, and I have recieved several direct emails that where also very informative.
 
AubreyMaturin said:
I suppose the initial purpose of this thread has been lost, so I should reitterate my questioning:

Other then the lenght of commitment (whcih is blatently obvious), what would be the advantages and dissadvanges of attenging USUHS vs. HPSP?

I am interested in points of view from people who have gone through (or are going through) either process. There are many obvious answers that I don't need help looking at. I want details. I want perspectives.

Everyone on this thread has been helpful, and I have recieved several direct emails that where also very informative.
Click to expand...

I'm going through this thought process at the same time you are, so let me put some more of my thoughts out.

USUHS:

Pro - make more $
- have health care
- DC is a cool area
- network with other military medical types
- learn more about military workings which might help in future
- focus on military medicine, which is unique
-- related to above, strong teaching in trauma basics (rumored, I don't know enough)
Con - have to wear a uniform
- traffic sucks in DC area
- housing costs are high
- have to shave every day
- rigid code of behavior
- too much military stuff when you're going to be exposed to that for years after

HPSP

Pro - more flexible school choice
- more flexible region of the country (hometown?)
- more diverse student population
- exposure to civilian medicine

Con - less $
- health insurance paid for, but doesn't include any family
- fewer networking opportunities
- less prestige within the military (depending on school, Harvard is Harvard)

I left things out that were obvious from one list to the other.
 
AubreyMaturin said:
In fact a few old-snooty Harvard docs I know have told me that they USUHS if very prestigous and reccommend it academically over my other options (BU, GW, TUFTS, UMASS).
Click to expand...


Why would you even consider any one of these other schools when you got into UMass? I'm assuming you're a Bay Stater. Why go and spend the money?
 
Sorry about that...your argument is more a false dilemma than a perfectionist fallacy but it could be.

I think you've made your mind up and can say that your posts read as though you'd make a great candidate, due to your mindset. There's non-traditional then there's non-traditional military. I'm talking about the guys/gals who had military careers before deciding to apply to USUHS. Hell, I think non-trads are more common now a days than trads.

Go with your decision and don't look back. I think you'll do fine. You sound like you're thinking things thru pretty well so "Haze grey and underway"
 
bobbyseal said:
Why would you even consider any one of these other schools when you got into UMass? I'm assuming you're a Bay Stater. Why go and spend the money?
Click to expand...

BobbySeal
I am not a Bay stater by choice, but by default. I moved here (because of a girl) and established residency by working and paying taxes. I got into Tufts after a few years at a community college, and here I stay. But do not really want to stay here. Umass provides financial assitance in return for even more of a commitment than the military (and less money.) UMASS is Cheap, but not as cheap as it seems.

If it where all about the money, you are right I would be foolish not to go UMASS. But my choice to enter USUHS or HPSP is not entirely about money. But if I go Civie, Umass will probably be top choice.
 
How much of an advantage is USUHS over HPSP in terms of residency choices, GMO choices, and billet choices? Will you be looked upon more favorably because you graduated from USUHS?
 
AubreyMaturin said:
How much of an advantage is USUHS over HPSP in terms of residency choices, GMO choices, and billet choices? Will you be looked upon more favorably because you graduated from USUHS?
Click to expand...
All things being equal USUHS grads are given first dibs. Yes, you are looked at more favorably because you are dedicating more payback...which equates to being more serious about military medicine. Basically the opinion seems to be that USUHS grads did it for love of country and military. I guess the salary & benefits during medical school were just nice extras.... :rolleyes:

Aubrey if you want the most advantage, in the military, then go USUHS and do well. After you match for residency it doesn't matter whether you are USUHS or HPSP or FAP.
 
This has been a great discussion (for me), though it does'nt seem that others are trying to decide between USUHS or HPSP.

Although I made my final decision to go to USUHS, events have conspired against me and I am going to Boston University on the Navy's dime (HPSP). I am staying because my wife has a really good job and wants to stay in the area, so I had to choose. I will really regret no going to USUHS but...

I think that I could not go wrong either way becasue I can stay in the miltary if I want, or leave if I don't like it. As crooooz said, "once you match for residency it does'nt matter where you went to school."

Since GMOs are one of my primary motivations for choosing the Navy, I will volunteer for one (or two) as soon as I am finished with internship. I may even spend four years on GMO duty, then do a civilian residency. And if I prefer serving my country over making lots of money, I can always go back for more. In USUHS I would be stuck for 7 + residency, so I would have less flexibility if I wanted to serve my time and get out.

Hope this discussion is helpful to all those millions of people who are stuck with the unenviable dilemma of choosing between USUHS and HPSP :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
AubreyMaturin said:
In USUHS I would be stuck for 7 + residency, so I would have less flexibility if I wanted to serve my time and get out.

QUOTE]

Flexibility is key. IMHO you are making the right decision.
Click to expand...
 
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