******UTH or UTMB...HERE IS IMPORTANT INFO and QUESTIONS!******

[sebsvenmdc]

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Ok, for all of you thinking about UTH or UTMB. Here is information regarding the USMLE Step 1 scores:

Year 1st time taker pass rate avg score
UTH Nat'l UTMB UTH UTMB Nat'l
2002 91% 91% 214 216
2003 89% 92% 96% 208 223 216
2004 86% 92% 93% 208 221 216
2005 92% 93% 96% 219 224 217
2006* 95% 94% 99% 220 228 219

* Indicates preliminary results.

(The UTMB data comes straight from their website. The UTH data came from some admissions person...it's legit.) One more thing to add...the above dates correspond to the year that the exam was taken rather than the year of graduation.)

So, it looks like UTH is doing better with the Step 1.

NOW, BIG QUESTIONS to consider:

Which is more structured? PBL or Traditional? I am thinking the latter. So, even though UTMB offers more free afternoons, it might demand the extra time to tease apart what is relevant from the irrelevant. UTH gives you a syllabi with everything you need to know in it. Does UTMB do this too? I am under the impression that the "self-studying" is LESS structured and may take more time. Therefore, for someone that loves structure, the longer lecture time may make sense, no?

What do you guys think? UTH or UTMB?

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

can you fix that table

 

[sebsvenmdc]

It's annoying...sorry. I had carefully spaced stuff apart, but the SDN software ignored it. It's correct, just carefully pair the numbers with the tabs above.

 

[sebsvenmdc]

Year UTH UTMB Nat'l UTH UTMB Nat'l
2002 91% NA 91% 214 216
2003 89% 96% 92% 208 223 216
2004 86% 93% 92% 208 221 216
2005 92% 96% 93% 219 224 217
2006 95% 99% 94% 220 228 219

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Year...UTH....UTMB...Nat'l...UTH...UTMB...Nat'l
2002....91%......NA.....91%.....214.....NA......216
2003....89%.....96%....92%.....208....223......216
2004....86%.....93%....92%.....208....221......216
2005....92%.....96%....93%.....219....224......217
2006....95%.....99%....94%.....220....228......219

 

[G.O.A.T.]

Year...UTH....UTMB...Nat'l...UTH...UTMB...Nat'l
2006....95%.....99%....94%.....220....228......219

our school told us the average this year was 217........are you sure about the 219? where did you get if from? thanks.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

ok i posted this everywhere. you better be right. who is the person you talked to btw?

 

[NCF145]

Ok, for all of you thinking about UTH or UTMB. Here is information regarding the USMLE Step 1 scores:

Year 1st time taker pass rate avg score
UTH Nat'l UTMB UTH UTMB Nat'l
2002 91% 91% 214 216
2003 89% 92% 96% 208 223 216
2004 86% 92% 93% 208 221 216
2005 92% 93% 96% 219 224 217
2006* 95% 94% 99% 220 228 219

* Indicates preliminary results.

(The UTMB data comes straight from their website. The UTH data came from some admissions person...it's legit.) One more thing to add...the above dates correspond to the year that the exam was taken rather than the year of graduation.)

So, it looks like UTH is doing better with the Step 1.

NOW, BIG QUESTIONS to consider:

Which is more structured? PBL or Traditional? I am thinking the latter. So, even though UTMB offers more free afternoons, it might demand the extra time to tease apart what is relevant from the irrelevant. UTH gives you a syllabi with everything you need to know in it. Does UTMB do this too? I am under the impression that the "self-studying" is LESS structured and may take more time. Therefore, for someone that loves structure, the longer lecture time may make sense, no?

What do you guys think? UTH or UTMB?

How does it look like UTH is doing better? The data suggests the contrary. Also, UTH has both a traditional and PBL curriculum. The PBL just doesn't start until the second year.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I dont think he meant UTH is doing better than UTMB. I think he meant they are just doing better in general, because someone else posted in another thread that the 2005-2006 averages for UTH were 208.

 

[sebsvenmdc]

to answer some questions...

This data is taken verbatim from someone...I am not making it up or distorting it. I guess it's impossible for me to be certain that it is correct. I'm just saying that I asked an official, and this is EXACTLY what I got.

To answer some questions...

It looks like UTH is doing better in terms of their pass rate going up from 86% in 2004 to 95% this year!

UTH does have some PBL in year 2, but I was under the impression that lectures still existed...in other words, I think PBL is just a small aspect of year 2, not most of the show like it is for year 2 at UTMB. Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[NCF145]

to answer some questions...

This data is taken verbatim from someone...I am not making it up or distorting it. I guess it's impossible for me to be certain that it is correct. I'm just saying that I asked an official, and this is EXACTLY what I got.

To answer some questions...

It looks like UTH is doing better in terms of their pass rate going up from 86% in 2004 to 95% this year!

UTH does have some PBL in year 2, but I was under the impression that lectures still existed...in other words, I think PBL is just a small aspect of year 2, not most of the show like it is for year 2 at UTMB. Am I misunderstanding something?

You are right

 

[lilTXcatMD]

Although I am sure you did speak to someone who thought they knew what they were talking about, I would go off the official UTH website documents that state the numbers are actually lower than what you have posted. The links to offical UTH pages with actual scores are posted in numerous other threads.

Addition - if you are a capable student, you can do well on the boards regardless of where you go to school. But if you want to make an informed decision, look at what the schools have published on their websites (even these may be favorably skewed in some way)...

 

[sebsvenmdc]

Although I am sure you did speak to someone who thought they knew what they were talking about, I would go off the official UTH website documents that state the numbers are actually lower than what you have posted. The links to offical UTH pages with actual scores are posted in numerous other threads.

Addition - if you are a capable student, you can do well on the boards regardless of where you go to school. But if you want to make an informed decision, look at what the schools have published on their websites (even these may be favorably skewed in some way)...

Well, the thing is that some of the stats align exactly with the UTH website documents...look at the 91%, 89%, and 86% pass rates. Those align perfectly. The last 2 years data was missing. So, in good faith, I asked about this data that no one knows officially.

 

[lilTXcatMD]

OK, I see what you did. 🙂

Has anyone been able to find any published info on recent UTH scores -- 2005 or 2006? The other schools seem to have it on their website but was unable to find it for UTH on theirs... and they don't have an updated "faculty meeting" program that gives the info like in past years.

 

[afterthought]

Well, the thing is that some of the stats align exactly with the UTH website documents...look at the 91%, 89%, and 86% pass rates. Those align perfectly. The last 2 years data was missing. So, in good faith, I asked about this data that no one knows officially.

Yup, his data match the data I took from the UTH documents (that folks have been referring to). He just added the most recent two years. Thanks, sebsvenmdc! Those numbers alleviate some of my concerns.

 

[sebsvenmdc]

Hi, my future MD friends,

That is exactly what I did. I am impressed that UTMB has been more consistent in their pass rates (like all 90s whereas UTH dipped into the 80s for 2 years), but I was thinking...is UTMB more stringent academically? I wonder if they weed out weaker students before they take USMLE Step 1...that would automatically result in a higher pass rate. This might be total crap. Perhaps the PBL works really well.

 

[G.O.A.T.]

i double checked it........this year's average was a 217.......phew.........that takes nothing away from what your post is about......not really important, just quelling my own fears.

 

[TX515]

Ok, for all of you thinking about UTH or UTMB. Here is information regarding the USMLE Step 1 scores:

Year 1st time taker pass rate avg score
UTH Nat'l UTMB UTH UTMB Nat'l
2002 91% 91% 214 216
2003 89% 92% 96% 208 223 216
2004 86% 92% 93% 208 221 216
2005 92% 93% 96% 219 224 217
2006* 95% 94% 99% 220 228 219

* Indicates preliminary results.

(The UTMB data comes straight from their website. The UTH data came from some admissions person...it's legit.) One more thing to add...the above dates correspond to the year that the exam was taken rather than the year of graduation.)

So, it looks like UTH is doing better with the Step 1.

NOW, BIG QUESTIONS to consider:

Which is more structured? PBL or Traditional? I am thinking the latter. So, even though UTMB offers more free afternoons, it might demand the extra time to tease apart what is relevant from the irrelevant. UTH gives you a syllabi with everything you need to know in it. Does UTMB do this too? I am under the impression that the "self-studying" is LESS structured and may take more time. Therefore, for someone that loves structure, the longer lecture time may make sense, no?

What do you guys think? UTH or UTMB?

I would have to say no. UTMB is very structured. You can go to lectures, read scribes, books, lecture power points....

 

[sebsvenmdc]

I would have to say no. UTMB is very structured. You can go to lectures, read scribes, books, lecture power points....

Interesting, thank you for the advice!

 

[txfisher]

On those averages, I'm pretty sure schools tell students who are not doing well to not take step 1. I think Galveston's 228 is the average for 177 students of the 220-something size class. Does Houston do the same? And if so, how many students don't take the exam? If Houston's average is 220 and UTMB's is 228, but UTMB has their 40 worst students not take it, then the two schools averages could be much more comparable.

 

[G.O.A.T.]

On those averages, I'm pretty sure schools tell students who are not doing well to not take step 1. I think Galveston's 228 is the average for 177 students of the 220-something size class. Does Houston do the same? And if so, how many students don't take the exam? If Houston's average is 220 and UTMB's is 228, but UTMB has their 40 worst students not take it, then the two schools averages could be much more comparable.

ooooh.........and the plot thickens

 

[Mariel]

On those averages, I'm pretty sure schools tell students who are not doing well to not take step 1. I think Galveston's 228 is the average for 177 students of the 220-something size class. Does Houston do the same? And if so, how many students don't take the exam? If Houston's average is 220 and UTMB's is 228, but UTMB has their 40 worst students not take it, then the two schools averages could be much more comparable.

As far as I know, you are required to pass all three steps of the USMLE before you can practice medicine, so all of the students would have to take step 1 eventually.

 

[txfisher]

.

 

[afterthought]

I think it may mean that those 177 are the ones who have gotten scores back by the date they made the graph (because they had to prepare the graph for the earliest interview date). I know you have some flexibility in scheduling the Step 1, so those who took it later may not have had their scores reported before then. Just a guess, though.

 

[TX515]

Interesting, thank you for the advice!

I wanted to add a little more. I always read that UTSA and other schools give a syllabus while UTMB does not offer one. The truth is, UTMB does give a syllabus. And even more, a lecture outline is given online with every lecture powerpoint, which gives the lecture objectives along with assigned readings.

 

[Pkboi24]

As far as I know, you are required to pass all three steps of the USMLE before you can practice medicine, so all of the students would have to take step 1 eventually.

I agree. I'm sure that of the 177 that took the step 1 this last year at UTMB there were a test takers who had deferred from the year before. If the theory is that the students who were unprepared and deferred the step one are more likely to bring down the average score, then it wouldn't really matter in year to year score comparison between the two schools since:

1. Each year of step one score averages will factor in scores from a few late testers belonging to a previous class.
2. This is true of both UTH and UTMB.

This is unless these late testers are left out of the calculations altogether and each year's avg test score is composed only of scores from members of that specific class. Does anyone know if this is the case?

 

[lotsOhotair]

hello guys and gals. i'm here to set the record straight!

some of you have hinted on it, but here's the real meal deal. UTMB monitors their students' performances on exams and practice boards. they take the bottomm 40 and assume they won't do so hot on their uslme and they allow them to postpone taking their boards until after the reporting of the pass rate of their first time test takers. that means that whatever scores are reported are those of the top 80 or so percent of the classes. some schools will do anything to make themselves look a little better!

at UTH, it's a different story. here, you MUST pass your usmle 1 before you can even step foot on the wards! that means that the reported average is the ACTUAL average of EVERYONE in that class. if UTH were to drop the bottom 40, the pass rate would be 100% each year. hell, even if they dropped the bottom 20 it would be 100%!

this year at UTH, the pass rate was 95% with EVERYONE included. that's one point above the national avg. which was 94%. but who knows how accurate the national avg. is when SOME schools only report their top 80 percent. don't be fooled!

if you want to really get down to the nitty gritty....you would be on the verge of insane to choose UTMB over UTH if you had the choice. currently UTMB is hurting. galveston is not the hottest place for medicine. they simply don't have the volume of patients. they are even having to ship people elsewhere to even get the fundamental exposures you need to call yourself an MD.

contrary to that, there is absolutely no better place for medicine in the world than the texas medical center. it's the largest and the greatest. you see the unimaginable here. the things that most medical students only read in the text books. there are over 5.4 million patient visits per year to the texas medical center and memorial hermann hospital (the primary teaching hospital of UTH) gets approximately 25% of those!!! try to find that in galveston. not to even mention the tremendous exposure to the indigent hospital at LBJ general, which is one of two county hospitals in harris county. you add in MD Anderson and texas heart institute and you've got a program that is unmatched.

with all of the growth and prosperity that UTH is experiencing at a time when most med schools are static, UTH is truly an exciting place to be.

bottom line, you should pick the place you are most comfortable at because after all it's 4 years of your life. but you better be thinking about what you're going to see and experience, NOT a score on a freakin standardized exam which says absolutely nothing about your ability to become a great physician. afterall, i've known several med students with MCATs of 38 and above that fail to complete their medical education.

food for thought.

 

[Duckwizard]

hello guys and gals. i'm here to set the record straight!

some of you have hinted on it, but here's the real meal deal. UTMB monitors their students' performances on exams and practice boards. they take the bottomm 40 and assume they won't do so hot on their uslme and they allow them to postpone taking their boards until after the reporting of the pass rate of their first time test takers. that means that whatever scores are reported are those of the top 80 or so percent of the classes. some schools will do anything to make themselves look a little better!

at UTH, it's a different story. here, you MUST pass your usmle 1 before you can even step foot on the wards! that means that the reported average is the ACTUAL average of EVERYONE in that class. if UTH were to drop the bottom 40, the pass rate would be 100% each year. hell, even if they dropped the bottom 20 it would be 100%!

this year at UTH, the pass rate was 95% with EVERYONE included. that's one point above the national avg. which was 94%. but who knows how accurate the national avg. is when SOME schools only report their top 80 percent. don't be fooled!

if you want to really get down to the nitty gritty....you would be on the verge of insane to choose UTMB over UTH if you had the choice. currently UTMB is hurting. galveston is not the hottest place for medicine. they simply don't have the volume of patients. they are even having to ship people elsewhere to even get the fundamental exposures you need to call yourself an MD.

contrary to that, there is absolutely no better place for medicine in the world than the texas medical center. it's the largest and the greatest. you see the unimaginable here. the things that most medical students only read in the text books. there are over 5.4 million patient visits per year to the texas medical center and memorial hermann hospital (the primary teaching hospital of UTH) gets approximately 25% of those!!! try to find that in galveston. not to even mention the tremendous exposure to the indigent hospital at LBJ general, which is one of two county hospitals in harris county. you add in MD Anderson and texas heart institute and you've got a program that is unmatched.

with all of the growth and prosperity that UTH is experiencing at a time when most med schools are static, UTH is truly an exciting place to be.

bottom line, you should pick the place you are most comfortable at because after all it's 4 years of your life. but you better be thinking about what you're going to see and experience, NOT a score on a freakin standardized exam which says absolutely nothing about your ability to become a great physician. afterall, i've known several med students with MCATs of 38 and above that fail to complete their medical education.

food for thought.

Good stuff. A LITTLE biased, but still good. 👍

 

[Pkboi24]

Good stuff. A LITTLE biased, but still good. 👍

I'm sorry, but that post was too biased for me to take seriously. As undecided as I am between UTH and UTMB, hearing someone bash UTMB and alleging that they manipulate their Step 1 scores did not help me make a choice. Perhaps I'd be a little more convinced if the poster included some flaws of UTH as well as the bunch that he threw out regarding UTMB.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

I'm sorry, but that post was too biased for me to take seriously. As undecided as I am between UTH and UTMB, hearing someone bash UTMB and alleging that they manipulate their Step 1 scores did not help me make a choice. Perhaps I'd be a little more convinced if the poster included some flaws of UTH as well as the bunch that he threw out regarding UTMB.

Yea but we all know the flaws I guess,

1.) Not as much PBL for the PBL lovers
2.) Board scores aren't as high as elsewhere, regardless of what lotsofhair said
3.) It's been stated that even tho TMC is great with MD Anderson and THI, how much of that do you actually get exposed to as a med student?
4.) Classes from 9-5 (this one is the one that hits me hard)
5.) Exam weeks

 

[TX515]

hello guys and gals. i'm here to set the record straight!

some of you have hinted on it, but here's the real meal deal. UTMB monitors their students' performances on exams and practice boards. they take the bottomm 40 and assume they won't do so hot on their uslme and they allow them to postpone taking their boards until after the reporting of the pass rate of their first time test takers. that means that whatever scores are reported are those of the top 80 or so percent of the classes. some schools will do anything to make themselves look a little better!

This is not true. I have never heard of UTMB forcing someone to hold off on the step 1 so that the school's average is higher. What I have heard is that if you fail it you can retake it, but if you pass it, you are not allowed to retake it. And as far as residency is concerned, the board scores are the biggest factor, but not the only factor, considered. For me personally, I would rather have the opportunity to be more prepared to take the step one than rotating the Medical Center my third year. But, I didn't choose UTMB over UT-H based on board scores alone. I like UTMB more, the environment, the friendliness, great academics, island life...

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

TX515 what is your response to this:

currently UTMB is hurting. galveston is not the hottest place for medicine. they simply don't have the volume of patients. they are even having to ship people elsewhere to even get the fundamental exposures you need to call yourself an MD.

 

[TX515]

TX515 what is your response to this:

Yeah I've heard about financial troubles, but I can't tell. I think it comes from too much spending. They are in the process of building some new national research lab and expanding clinics to surrounding areas. Read up on this article I just googled: http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2006/hc/200610/20061017utmb.html
In all seriousness, do not doubt the education UTMB offers. Students are not shipped all over the place so they can have a comparable education to other TX med students. However, I will speak up on going other places. I'm a first year and I am required to drive about 30 minutes to this clinic about once every four weeks in order to practice giving exams and to better patient interaction skills. Not all my classmates have to drive, some go to clinics here. But, I don't even think other first year med students at other schools have this opportunity. UTMB offers students the opportunity to learn in Austin as well as places like the Medical Center. So just because you graduate from UTMB doesn't mean you can't experience what the Medical Center can offer.
I've never noticed a small patient population. Of all the places I've been to where medicine is practiced, the place is hustling. UTMB is also responsible for TDCJ.
Did that help?

 

[sebsvenmdc]

Do classes really run from 8-5 at UTH? Holy mother. Isn't this just for the first semester? HELP...what is a realistic lecture and lab schedule. Please break it down:
Monday:
Tuesday:
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday:
If UTMB kids only have class till noon...that gives 5 extra hours per day to study. Surely, this is negated somehow...prepping for the PBL takes more time? What are your opinions people. I am apprehensive about picking a school with a much tougher schedule that doesn't prep me as well!

 

[djfir0]

hello guys and gals. i'm here to set the record straight!

some of you have hinted on it, but here's the real meal deal. UTMB monitors their students' performances on exams and practice boards. they take the bottomm 40 and assume they won't do so hot on their uslme and they allow them to postpone taking their boards until after the reporting of the pass rate of their first time test takers. that means that whatever scores are reported are those of the top 80 or so percent of the classes. some schools will do anything to make themselves look a little better!

at UTH, it's a different story. here, you MUST pass your usmle 1 before you can even step foot on the wards! that means that the reported average is the ACTUAL average of EVERYONE in that class. if UTH were to drop the bottom 40, the pass rate would be 100% each year. hell, even if they dropped the bottom 20 it would be 100%!

this year at UTH, the pass rate was 95% with EVERYONE included. that's one point above the national avg. which was 94%. but who knows how accurate the national avg. is when SOME schools only report their top 80 percent. don't be fooled!

if you want to really get down to the nitty gritty....you would be on the verge of insane to choose UTMB over UTH if you had the choice. currently UTMB is hurting. galveston is not the hottest place for medicine. they simply don't have the volume of patients. they are even having to ship people elsewhere to even get the fundamental exposures you need to call yourself an MD.

contrary to that, there is absolutely no better place for medicine in the world than the texas medical center. it's the largest and the greatest. you see the unimaginable here. the things that most medical students only read in the text books. there are over 5.4 million patient visits per year to the texas medical center and memorial hermann hospital (the primary teaching hospital of UTH) gets approximately 25% of those!!! try to find that in galveston. not to even mention the tremendous exposure to the indigent hospital at LBJ general, which is one of two county hospitals in harris county. you add in MD Anderson and texas heart institute and you've got a program that is unmatched.

with all of the growth and prosperity that UTH is experiencing at a time when most med schools are static, UTH is truly an exciting place to be.

bottom line, you should pick the place you are most comfortable at because after all it's 4 years of your life. but you better be thinking about what you're going to see and experience, NOT a score on a freakin standardized exam which says absolutely nothing about your ability to become a great physician. afterall, i've known several med students with MCATs of 38 and above that fail to complete their medical education.

food for thought.

i think that is quite honestly the dumbest **** i have ever read on this board.... calm down colombo. so what are you the dean or something? don't you realize that even if they did do that, those students would have to take the boards EVENTUALLY.... they've been reporting super high board scores for years. so eventually those people would eventually be incorporated into the average board scores for at least one of the reported periods. 2ndly, if they allow them to take it later don't you think its awesome that they cater to peoples individual needs instead of being like **** it take it anyway, when they know that person won't do as well as they could if they had more time to study. personally i see that as a HUGE plus. at baylor i hear they give an extra 6 months to people to study for their exams and the result is that they have the highest average scores in texas.

no doubt studying medicine at the tmc is an opportunity that would be stupid to pass up. the bottom line is... pre-clinical education at utmb > uth pre-clinical... clinical at uth > utmb... wow no one has heard that before. but the only thing is... at uth you can't opt to go do your pre-clin at utmb.... and at utmb you can opt to go do your rotations anywhere you want.

 

[djfir0]

Do classes really run from 8-5 at UTH? Holy mother. Isn't this just for the first semester? HELP...what is a realistic lecture and lab schedule. Please break it down:
Monday:
Tuesday:
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday:
If UTMB kids only have class till noon...that gives 5 extra hours per day to study. Surely, this is negated somehow...prepping for the PBL takes more time? What are your opinions people. I am apprehensive about picking a school with a much tougher schedule that doesn't prep me as well!

yea not only that, but they only have one exam at a time where as houston's block scheduling makes you take 4 exams a week like every month or something.... it sucks that a school would stress their students out that much.

 

[sebsvenmdc]

Yeah...personally, I think it's freaking dumb that certain med schools ENFORCE taking the USMLE step 1 during a 4-5 week period. The thing is though UTH does have an alternative pathway program for students that are struggling. That is pretty cool. Does UTMB have a similar program? Does UTMB kick kids out more easily than at UTH? This could be another way in which they could keep their board scores high. I'm not insisting that they have some unfair method...perhaps their preclinical really is just that good.

I'M JUST TRYING TO BE CAREFUL NOT TO PUT TOO MUCH STOCK INTO A STATISTIC ESPECIALLY IF THAT STATISTIC HAS POTENTIALLY BEEN TWEAKED. ALSO, PERHAPS THERE IS SOME RANDOM VARIATION IN SCORES...AND THERE ISN'T A CLEAN CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEIR CURRICULUM AND SCORES. PERHAPS THERE SCORES JUST HAPPEN TO BE HIGH TO WHICH ADMISSIONS OFFICERS OF COURSE WILL SAY: "OUR CURRICULUM WORKS."

What are your thoughts, ppl?

I'm not bashing UTMB. It's an excellent school. I'm VERY thankful to be accepted there. I still may go there...but UTH is my dream at the moment.

 

[Texas Doc]

Can someone give us a verifiable cite that backs up the claim that UTMB is loosing its patient base?

It's well documented that UTMB had some cost cutting that took place recently but all appears to be in order now. Does anyone have a cite that indicates otherwise?

UTMB has a huge budget of 1.3 billion compared to 654 million for UTH. Some 12,000 employees. Any business of this size needs adjusting from time to time. Does anyone have a cite suggesting further adjustments are needed?

 

[dancer75088]

Hey guys, just thought you should know, that at the Texas Tech alumni thing in Dallas, I spoke to the dean of admissions about Texas Tech's low board scores and he said that 1). they are working to improve them with their new curric. and 2). some schools (he mentioned no one in particular) do prevent students from taking step 1.

As with everything else on an internet forum, take what you hear with a grain of salt and come to your own conclusions.

 

[afterthought]

Can someone give us a verifiable cite that backs up the claim that UTMB is loosing its patient base?

It's well documented that UTMB had some cost cutting that took place recently but all appears to be in order now. Does anyone have a cite that indicates otherwise?

UTMB has a huge budget of 1.3 billion compared to 654 million for UTH. Some 12,000 employees. Any business of this size needs adjusting from time to time. Does anyone have a cite suggesting further adjustments are needed?

Well, financially, UTMB will remain unstable until it makes bigger moves into Austin, which with the continued push for rotations there and new residencies being started every year (I think it's one per year...), may help fairly soon.

The bottom line is this: Academic medical centers require a balance of privately insured patients and medicare/caid/uninsured patients to be financially viable. UTMB's scales are tipped WAY to the under/uncompensated side, thus their financial troubles. This has led to their moves into Clear Lake (private patients) and Austin (a better balance of public/private patients, and in the second largest US city without a med school).

More money = better faculty recruitment/retainment = better almost everything else you look for in a med school.

If it weren't for its preclinical curriculum, I would have already declined my UTMB offer. (Although, and this is something I haven't looked into as much, more public patients at UTMB could mean better, meaning more hands-on, training in some cases. That's something to think about.) UTMB's future is grim, but that's not to say you wouldn't get a good education there now. Still, it's lucky that a huge number of the practicing physicians in Texas graduated from there, probably making it politically inviable to make huge cuts to the institution.

 

[Pkboi24]

Yea but we all know the flaws I guess,

1.) Not as much PBL for the PBL lovers
2.) Board scores aren't as high as elsewhere, regardless of what lotsofhair said
3.) It's been stated that even tho TMC is great with MD Anderson and THI, how much of that do you actually get exposed to as a med student?
4.) Classes from 9-5 (this one is the one that hits me hard)
5.) Exam weeks

LOL. I believe his name is lotsOHOTAIR.

Priceless...

 

[Pkboi24]

double post

 

[future_dr_house]

hello guys and gals. i'm here to set the record straight!

some of you have hinted on it, but here's the real meal deal. UTMB monitors their students' performances on exams and practice boards. they take the bottomm 40 and assume they won't do so hot on their uslme and they allow them to postpone taking their boards until after the reporting of the pass rate of their first time test takers. that means that whatever scores are reported are those of the top 80 or so percent of the classes. some schools will do anything to make themselves look a little better!

at UTH, it's a different story. here, you MUST pass your usmle 1 before you can even step foot on the wards! that means that the reported average is the ACTUAL average of EVERYONE in that class. if UTH were to drop the bottom 40, the pass rate would be 100% each year. hell, even if they dropped the bottom 20 it would be 100%!

this year at UTH, the pass rate was 95% with EVERYONE included. that's one point above the national avg. which was 94%. but who knows how accurate the national avg. is when SOME schools only report their top 80 percent. don't be fooled!

directly from utmb's website:
" Earlier this summer, with 90 percent of the scores in, the Class of 2008 learned that they achieved a 99 percent passing rate on the USMLE Step 1 Test, surpassing the national average of 92 percent. In addition, our students’ average score was 226, well above the national average of 217."

not completely contradicting your statment but it did say 90% of the scores, not the preposed 80%

 

[Texas Doc]

To be fair, UTMB's budget includes its hospital operations, whereas UTH utilizes affiliate hospitals which have their own budgets. The TMC operated on about $4.6 billion last year, and employed roughly 60,000 people.

Can't dispute that! The TMC is probably the largest medical complex of its kind in the world. Its just that UTH doesn't own it. Do you think that owning your own teaching hospital might be of some benefit to the students?

UTMB has over 1 billion in assets and has a long history of state support. Numerous posters have indicated that the future of UTMB is grim which means the state does not intend to fully support UTMB. I can't see any evidence of this with a new hospital in Clear Lake and new campus for residents in Austin. UTMB will have two hospitals while UTH will have none. UTMB appears to be growing not declining.

If anyone knows of any published data indicating the UTMB will have a grim future because of problems that have not or can not be addressed, please provide us with a cite so that we can all make an informed decision.

 

[afterthought]

UTMB has over 1 billion in assets and has a long history of state support. Numerous posters have indicated that the future of UTMB is grim which means the state does not intend to fully support UTMB. I can't see any evidence of this with a new hospital in Clear Lake and new campus for residents in Austin. UTMB will have two hospitals while UTH will have none. UTMB appears to be growing not declining.

I guess I wasn't clear in my last post. The reason UTMB is expanding to Clear Lake and to Austin is because its current clinical program is not financially viable. Clear Lake and Austin can provide the paying patients that UTMB lacks in Galveston. Demographically, Galveston is no longer a good place for a med school. It's historical roots have tied it down, though. UTMB has no choice but to expand, and that's not a good situation to be in. A struggling school is a school that has less success in recruiting and retaining faculty, who are the backbone of any academic institution.

There is somewhat of a consensus that there will be a med school in Austin someday (emphasis on the someday--and this despite the need for one in underserved South Texas). Whether that means a split UTMB campus, a moved UTMB campus, or an additional school in Austin is up in the air. (I'm not really a biased observer, BTW. I was accepted to both UTH and UTMB, and am still considering both. I'm by no means attacking UTMB. I think its situation is rather unfortunate, especially considering the school's past successes. I'm just trying to explan the hurdles UTMB faces--hurdles that may be relevant to our choice of med school.)

 

[djfir0]

Can't dispute that! The TMC is probably the largest medical complex of its kind in the world. Its just that UTH doesn't own it. Do you think that owning your own teaching hospital might be of some benefit to the students?

UTMB has over 1 billion in assets and has a long history of state support. Numerous posters have indicated that the future of UTMB is grim which means the state does not intend to fully support UTMB. I can't see any evidence of this with a new hospital in Clear Lake and new campus for residents in Austin. UTMB will have two hospitals while UTH will have none. UTMB appears to be growing not declining.

If anyone knows of any published data indicating the UTMB will have a grim future because of problems that have not or can not be addressed, please provide us with a cite so that we can all make an informed decision.

word.. i like how everyone turns into some sort of accountant or financial advisor/dean of the school when it comes to this... the fact is 99.9% of things on this site are just speculation... might as well just flip a coin to pick your school, you are prolly better off doing that then listen to anything on this site.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

i think that is quite honestly the dumbest **** i have ever read on this board.... calm down colombo. so what are you the dean or something? don't you realize that even if they did do that, those students would have to take the boards EVENTUALLY.... they've been reporting super high board scores for years. so eventually those people would eventually be incorporated into the average board scores for at least one of the reported periods. 2ndly, if they allow them to take it later don't you think its awesome that they cater to peoples individual needs instead of being like **** it take it anyway, when they know that person won't do as well as they could if they had more time to study. personally i see that as a HUGE plus. at baylor i hear they give an extra 6 months to people to study for their exams and the result is that they have the highest average scores in texas.

Come on man, chill a little, no need to go on the full defensive. There's good and bad about both schools. I and others are just worried that we will pick a school that doesn't fit us well - at least for me, I picked an undergrad college that wasn't too compatible with me and it made life hell. I'd rather not make the same mistake again. True, soliciting info on a forum is probably a source of some of the flakiest info, but it's also a place where other equally worried people are doing their best to get this info, and who knows maybe it will come out.

But I believe we've all sort of hedged out a standstill here, where without proper documentation from qualified university personnel, we are beginning to be stuck with just statements.

 

[Texas Doc]

I guess I wasn't clear in my last post. The reason UTMB is expanding to Clear Lake and to Austin is because its current clinical program is not financially viable. Clear Lake and Austin can provide the paying patients that UTMB lacks in Galveston. Demographically, Galveston is no longer a good place for a med school. It's historical roots have tied it down, though. UTMB has no choice but to expand, and that's not a good situation to be in. A struggling school is a school that has less success in recruiting and retaining faculty, who are the backbone of any academic institution.

There is somewhat of a consensus that there will be a med school in Austin someday (emphasis on the someday--and this despite the need for one in underserved South Texas). Whether that means a split UTMB campus, a moved UTMB campus, or an additional school in Austin is up in the air. (I'm not really a biased observer, BTW. I was accepted to both UTH and UTMB, and am still considering both. I'm by no means attacking UTMB. I think its situation is rather unfortunate, especially considering the school's past successes. I'm just trying to explan the hurdles UTMB faces--hurdles that may be relevant to our choice of med school.)

I hear what you’re saying but there are a lot of hospitals that don’t exactly have a profitable mix of private pay patients. County hospitals come to mind. It’s only a problem if the supporting government does not want to or does not have the means to fully support the hospital. I was looking for some indication that the state won’t or can’t continue to fully support UTMB. No doubt with the growth of the TMC a lot of private pay patients that through the years went to UTMB now go the TMC. Does having fewer private pay patients have an adverse affect on the student, probably just the opposite is true.

Basing health care decisions solely on a profitable mix of private pay patients would only increase the number of under served areas. Generally, soneone has to subsidize the cost of health care to these areas.

As long as the state is willing to fully support UTMB, their patient mix would not have an adverse effect on their ability to pay or recruit a highly qualified faculty.

Prehaps the flight of private pay patients to the TMC will ultimately have a positive impact on UTMB. Clear Lake and Austin can only expand the posibilities for UTMB students

 

[Teejay]

From all these post, what i can say is that UTMB is expanding. They are moving things to Austin because the Texas Legislature doesn't wanna build another med-school in Austin due to budget cuts, so they told UTMB to pick up the slack, and expand since they are the only state funded school and since there is a projected decline in physicians in the next 10 years. In that way, they can have more med-students and residents admitted at one time.
Secondly, UTMB is building a new hospital in clear lake not because of patient population but because they wanna harnass the resources over they. clear lake is rich and poeple have insurance. Most people that come to UTMB lack insurance, so the school is spending a lot of money on that. So, Instead of clear lake patients going to houston, they can just drive to the nearby UTMB hospital. This means more rotation sites for med-students. UtMB patient population is still huge. They had more 764,000 hospital visits last year with more 71,000 emergencies.
Third, they have a new national lab coming by 2008 which means more money, faculty, prestige and research. The lab only will employ about 1000 professionals.
The advantages of going to UTMB is tremedous. If you are the city kind of person, you can choose to do your rotations in Austin and get drunk everynight. If you are in love with TMC, you can do your rotations they cuz they also have affiliations at TMC. You can do your rotation anywhere you want and thats the flexibility UTMB offers. Besides, you don't get to use the whole TMC as a med-student. The advantage of galveston as a med student is that you have a good study environment and the people of galveston value utmb students a lot that they have discounts in everything. UTMB also have free clinics run by only med-students, so you get to practice on real patients at your own time and pace. Board scores are also great, i believe second best in texas. Y'all should remember that the most important part of med-school is the first two-years because that defines your future medical career. If you screw your boards, you'll end up going into what you never planned for and that will frustrate you the rest of your life. You can always make up your clinical rotation deficits during residency, but you can never make up your first two years. UTMB offers the biggest scholarships amongst texas schools because of their powerful alumni. Most students i know don't even pay school fees. So, weigh you options.
I also think UTH is a great school. The only problem i see is their rigorous curriculum and low board scores. Thier students are great, I have friends over there and they are not any different.
So people!!!, make your choices based on what you want and where you''ll get the best education not by degrading or bashing other schools.

 

[afterthought]

I hear what you're saying but there are a lot of hospitals that don't exactly have a profitable mix of private pay patients. County hospitals come to mind. It's only a problem if the supporting government does not want to or does not have the means to fully support the hospital. I was looking for some indication that the state won't or can't continue to fully support UTMB. No doubt with the growth of the TMC a lot of private pay patients that through the years went to UTMB now go the TMC. Does having fewer private pay patients have an adverse affect on the student, probably just the opposite is true.

Basing health care decisions solely on a profitable mix of private pay patients would only increase the number of under served areas. Generally, soneone has to subsidize the cost of health care to these areas.

As long as the state is willing to fully support UTMB, their patient mix would not have an adverse effect on their ability to pay or recruit a highly qualified faculty.

Prehaps the flight of private pay patients to the TMC will ultimately have a positive impact on UTMB. Clear Lake and Austin can only expand the posibilities for UTMB students

Your assertions about the effects of the proportion of private-paying patients on an academic medical center are overly simplistic. It's a maxim of academic health centers that a good mix of public/private payers is necessary for fiscal stability while still being able to serve their core missions. That's why most med schools are affiliated with both public and private hospitals. You state that seeking this mix only furthers medical inequities, but economics dictate that the opposite is true: If schools don't have enough private patients, they don't have enough money to serve public patients, and their care gets cut back. Exactly that has happened at UTMB: http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/june04/uninsured.htm

County hospitals only exist when there are tax districts or other external funds to adaquately support them. Not a huge priority for our (Republican) legislature, so it falls on the counties, which don't seem to be paying UTMB very well: http://www.utmb.edu/utmbreports/indcare/lbb2005.pdf

The financial status of an institution can potentially affect education in innumerable ways, but the key word is potentially--I'm not sure how it will all play out. But that's all separate from MS's having adaquate access to public patients. The logic that the existence of private patients (or more private patients) leads to less med student access to public patients is flawed. There is no inherent connection. Students choose where to do their rotations and are often shooed away from private patients towards the public ones.

(Emory illustrates this well. It's affiliated with two main hospitals, University Hospital and Grady, a public hospital. University Hospital is not known to be a student friendly place--a sort of look-but-don't-touch type training. Grady is known to be an excellent place to train, and students try to do many of their rotations there. Grady provides the training; University Hospital provides the funding.)

Aside from all this, it seems the UTMB faculty is in somewhat of a turmoil, which I'm not so shocked to learn. Alot of it seems to be based on faculty salaries. http://txfacassn.typepad.com/utmb_galveston_chapter_te/

There are some links at the site above to articles in the Galveston paper that suggest legislators are growing frustrated with UTMB. Their reasons are probably ridiculous, but unfortunately that matters little in our legislature.

The real question is whether any of this would affect MS education... and I can see that answer swinging many different ways.

Again, I'm NOT--repeat, NOT--trying to bash on UTMB. I could talk about the things I don't like about other schools too, but those issues are usually less complex (UTH's preclinical curriculum, board scores, etc) and most have been discussed ad nauseum. I really like UTMB's preclinical curriculum and atmosphere, so I wish these things weren't so troublesome. But I'm sure as hell going to be asking about them when I revisit. With how hard we've all worked to get here, we would be doing a disservice to ourselves if we didn't.

Edit: 100th post! 😉