UTSW vs McGovern vs Long

[23LeGoatJames23]

UTSW
Pros

• Close to home
• I have lots of friends who attend, plus I have been doing research with faculty there for >2 years so I have a lot of support there
• Very highly ranked which will help for residency matching
• True p/f
• Great public and private hospital

Cons

• Highly competitive
• Doesn't seem like students there are happy overall
• Step scores didn't blow me away

McGovern (UT Houston)
Pros

• TMC is largest medical center in the world
• Solid curriculum
• Amazing clinical rotation sites
• Good balance of competitive and collaborative

Cons

• Competing with many students for available clinical resources
• Houston cost of living is fairly high
• Houston is very humid
• 4 hour drive means I won't see family very often

Long UTH San Antonio
Pros

• Very affordable COL
• 4 months off for step 1
• Very friendly and collaborative environment
• Seems like students have a good amount of free time relative to other schools

Cons

• Not as many clinical opportunities as UTSW/McGovern
• Not true p/f
• Graded quizzes weekly
• 5 hour drive from my family

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[Eurycea]

I think your list hits all of the highlights. Most would rank UTSW first out of the three unless you really love SA or Houston over Dallas

 

[m1redsox]

UTSW because it’s close to home, has P/F, and is the most well-known. Additionally, your cons for UTSW seem more like speculation and hearsay compared to your cons for McGovern and Long.

 

[electropartyogram]

UTSW > McGovern > Long.

 

[Phys270]

Just copied and pasted this from the thread for Long SOM / San Antonio where I posted a second ago. Thought this might be relevant to at least one of you.

----

Before reading this: I’m a current MS2 student writing this review for future students considering attending this school. This is basically a bunch of stuff that would have affected my decision to attend this school if I had known about it before coming here. I ultimately ended up choosing this school because they gave me a 5k/yr scholarship on top of the cheap tuition which I felt like was too good of a deal to turn down- but you get what you pay for as they say! So here we go:

Lecture curriculum is disorganized and has poor overlap with what is tested on national board exams. Beware of using outside exam prep resources at this school! The exam writers at this school like to target obscure material that is not covered in popular board exam prep courses as a means of penalizing students who do not focus on material taught by the school’s lecturers (despite this material being less high yield for medical board exams).

A special course called clinical skills which teaches toward USMLE step 2 is mandatory during first and second year. Because this is critical STEP1 learning time, the clinical skills course is a sort of handicap for those looking to score highly on step 1, since students from other schools spend all of their time studying the basic science. In spite of the grading in the clinical skills course being highly subjective (aka sometimes you do great and sometimes you flunk and they never tell you why), it is worth more grade points than any other preclinical course, thus many straight-A students lose their chance for AOA because of this course (it runs for 2 years and you don't get your final grade until the end of 2nd year), making it another drawback for those interested in applying to competitive residencies. Many students say the clinical skills course was valuable for learning physical exam skills, though, and that it eased the learning curve in 3rd year. My experience is that the general agreement among most students here is that they would have rather not been required to take the course at all, and that either way you’d pick up on what you need to know in the first few weeks of clinical rotations.

There are many other required attendance activities at this school which seem to waste more time than proving helpful for learning material- Synthesis being one example. Synthesis is an activity where you spend three hours one day per week being quizzed on and discussing various facets of a single patient case in a group setting. The amount of learning in Synthesis equates to about 20 minutes of focused study using a STEP1 question bank. It is a HUGE waste of time.

Overall, I’d say this is a pretty average school and going here is a great idea if you like the idea of doing primary care and didn't get into a lot of other schools. You’ll learn enough to pass the boards and you’ll learn lots of things that might be applicable in practice even if they will not be on board exams.

Really, the challenges with this school highlight the failings in our national education system to determine what makes a good doctor and what things should matter when evaluating residency applicants. Unfortunately, the philosophy held by the leaders of this school doesn’t match up well with the philosophy of most residency directors overseeing admission into competitive specialties.

Per the associate dean of student affairs, speaking in a STEP exam prep meeting for 2nd year students: “STEP1 is a licensing exam. Does it really matter how high you score as long as you pass? Does anyone ask you what your score on your drivers license exam was?”

Contrast this with UTMB (galveston), who cancelled lectures to allow students more time to Anki because they realized it was more efficient for getting good board scores.

Alas I think that is all I have to say.

-------

Just some demographic info about myself for those who are curious, I'm currently gearing up to take STEP1 with practice test scores around 245ish- because I started doing Zanki at the beginning of MS2. Realized that class material alone was barely enough to get a passing STEP score. My MCAT was 520 and GPA from college 3.78. Looking to do Opthalmology (a competitive specialty). So far I have 4.0 in preclinical classes but it's been a heck of a challenge studying for both STEP and studying for class (remember, poor overlap between the two). Got acceptances from all of the Texas schools except Baylor and A&M. Chose San Antonio based on suburban campus and scholarship.

 

[clutchtho]

Just copied and pasted this from the thread for Long SOM / San Antonio where I posted a second ago. Thought this might be relevant to at least one of you.

----

Before reading this: I’m a current MS2 student writing this review for future students considering attending this school. This is basically a bunch of stuff that would have affected my decision to attend this school if I had known about it before coming here. I ultimately ended up choosing this school because they gave me a 5k/yr scholarship on top of the cheap tuition which I felt like was too good of a deal to turn down- but you get what you pay for as they say! So here we go:

Lecture curriculum is disorganized and has poor overlap with what is tested on national board exams. Beware of using outside exam prep resources at this school! The exam writers at this school like to target obscure material that is not covered in popular board exam prep courses as a means of penalizing students who do not focus on material taught by the school’s lecturers (despite this material being less high yield for medical board exams).

A special course called clinical skills which teaches toward USMLE step 2 is mandatory during first and second year. Because this is critical STEP1 learning time, the clinical skills course is a sort of handicap for those looking to score highly on step 1, since students from other schools spend all of their time studying the basic science. In spite of the grading in the clinical skills course being highly subjective (aka sometimes you do great and sometimes you flunk and they never tell you why), it is worth more grade points than any other preclinical course, thus many straight-A students lose their chance for AOA because of this course (it runs for 2 years and you don't get your final grade until the end of 2nd year), making it another drawback for those interested in applying to competitive residencies. Many students say the clinical skills course was valuable for learning physical exam skills, though, and that it eased the learning curve in 3rd year. My experience is that the general agreement among most students here is that they would have rather not been required to take the course at all, and that either way you’d pick up on what you need to know in the first few weeks of clinical rotations.

There are many other required attendance activities at this school which seem to waste more time than proving helpful for learning material- Synthesis being one example. Synthesis is an activity where you spend three hours one day per week being quizzed on and discussing various facets of a single patient case in a group setting. The amount of learning in Synthesis equates to about 20 minutes of focused study using a STEP1 question bank. It is a HUGE waste of time.

Overall, I’d say this is a pretty average school and going here is a great idea if you like the idea of doing primary care and didn't get into a lot of other schools. You’ll learn enough to pass the boards and you’ll learn lots of things that might be applicable in practice even if they will not be on board exams.

Really, the challenges with this school highlight the failings in our national education system to determine what makes a good doctor and what things should matter when evaluating residency applicants. Unfortunately, the philosophy held by the leaders of this school doesn’t match up well with the philosophy of most residency directors overseeing admission into competitive specialties.

Per the associate dean of student affairs, speaking in a STEP exam prep meeting for 2nd year students: “STEP1 is a licensing exam. Does it really matter how high you score as long as you pass? Does anyone ask you what your score on your drivers license exam was?”

Contrast this with UTMB (galveston), who cancelled lectures to allow students more time to Anki because they realized it was more efficient for getting good board scores.

Alas I think that is all I have to say.

-------

Just some demographic info about myself for those who are curious, I'm currently gearing up to take STEP1 with practice test scores around 245ish- because I started doing Zanki at the beginning of MS2. Realized that class material alone was barely enough to get a passing STEP score. My MCAT was 520 and GPA from college 3.78. Looking to do Opthalmology (a competitive specialty). So far I have 4.0 in preclinical classes but it's been a heck of a challenge studying for both STEP and studying for class (remember, poor overlap between the two). Got acceptances from all of the Texas schools except Baylor and A&M. Chose San Antonio based on suburban campus and scholarship.

Coming back to old posts bc deciding. You have like my exact stats. Anyways I was wondering if your opinion has shifted at all in the past few months especially with dedicated time and finishing preclinical. Do you wish you had chosen UTH or UTSW or are you happy with your choice?

 

[Eurycea]

Coming back to old posts bc deciding. You have like my exact stats. Anyways I was wondering if your opinion has shifted at all in the past few months especially with dedicated time and finishing preclinical. Do you wish you had chosen UTH or UTSW or are you happy with your choice?

Phys270 ended up posting this message in the same thread a little while later which might answer some of your questions:

Current MS2 at Long here. I posted my perspective on some of the drawbacks of this school a while back (page 8 of the thread?) and got some heat from other folks at this school. Just wanted to say a few things after reading all the replies and also in light of the new STEP1 changes.

First, I wanted to apologize for anything that I said that may have been offensive to those who love our school. My post was intended to be helpful, not hurtful- I regret how it was offensive to some of the current students that really like it here. I have definitely had my frustrations but I really love the people at Long and overall it has been a great environment for student well-being, which is something that really sets this school apart.

Second, my main point was that it seemed like the leaders of this school didn’t take step1 seriously enough and focused too much on step2, which seemed disadvantageous since residencies currently use step1 scores to screen applicants and care little about step2. The new change making step1 pass/fail will apply for those in your entering class, and this change likely means that step2 may become the new step1, i.e., what most residency directors use to screen applicants (Using numbers to screen people is crumby, but at least Step2 probably correlates better with being a good doctor than step1- so this is a step in the right direction).

The fact that we learn step2-type information during our preclinical years here at Long is suddenly a huge plus, not a drawback. The lesser focus on step1 is a plus too since it’s just pass fail now. And I’m sure that for you guys, the 4 months of step1 study time that they’ve been giving us will get moved in some way to make time for step2 studying instead.

When the dean of student affairs said that step1 should be treated like a drivers license exam, he was right- but it was frustrating to us students because the hard fact was that we had a broken system where high step1 scores seemed like the only thing that mattered. I think that’s what prompted the step1 scoring change. The step1 frenzy was making people do stupid things like doing Anki cards all day instead of serving in the student clinics, getting involved in research, etc. The excessive focus on step1 was really hurting our medical education.

I’m not sure if the leadership at our school knew the change was coming, but the philosophy of not letting step1 be blown out of proportion was an important factor in the development of of the school’s current curriculum. Now with the change, the curriculum is spot on. Compared to the other Texas schools (who may be making adjustments to their curriculum over the next few years), our preclinical curriculum is already really helpful for step2 material and has tons of useful information above and beyond what is tested on STEP1. The timing and depth of the clinical skills course is also great if you’re not pitting it against excessive STEP1 studying.

Given the choice between Long and another Texas school at the present, knowing what I know now about the board exam situation and the overall feel of this school, I’d say hands down this is the place to be.

Feel free to direct message me if you have any questions or anything about my change of opinion here. Hope this post was helpful for the few of you who might still be deciding

 

[Raider1]

Phys270 ended up posting this message in the same thread a little while later which might answer some of your questions:

Current MS2 at Long here. I posted my perspective on some of the drawbacks of this school a while back (page 8 of the thread?) and got some heat from other folks at this school. Just wanted to say a few things after reading all the replies and also in light of the new STEP1 changes.

First, I wanted to apologize for anything that I said that may have been offensive to those who love our school. My post was intended to be helpful, not hurtful- I regret how it was offensive to some of the current students that really like it here. I have definitely had my frustrations but I really love the people at Long and overall it has been a great environment for student well-being, which is something that really sets this school apart.

Second, my main point was that it seemed like the leaders of this school didn’t take step1 seriously enough and focused too much on step2, which seemed disadvantageous since residencies currently use step1 scores to screen applicants and care little about step2. The new change making step1 pass/fail will apply for those in your entering class, and this change likely means that step2 may become the new step1, i.e., what most residency directors use to screen applicants (Using numbers to screen people is crumby, but at least Step2 probably correlates better with being a good doctor than step1- so this is a step in the right direction).

The fact that we learn step2-type information during our preclinical years here at Long is suddenly a huge plus, not a drawback. The lesser focus on step1 is a plus too since it’s just pass fail now. And I’m sure that for you guys, the 4 months of step1 study time that they’ve been giving us will get moved in some way to make time for step2 studying instead.

When the dean of student affairs said that step1 should be treated like a drivers license exam, he was right- but it was frustrating to us students because the hard fact was that we had a broken system where high step1 scores seemed like the only thing that mattered. I think that’s what prompted the step1 scoring change. The step1 frenzy was making people do stupid things like doing Anki cards all day instead of serving in the student clinics, getting involved in research, etc. The excessive focus on step1 was really hurting our medical education.

I’m not sure if the leadership at our school knew the change was coming, but the philosophy of not letting step1 be blown out of proportion was an important factor in the development of of the school’s current curriculum. Now with the change, the curriculum is spot on. Compared to the other Texas schools (who may be making adjustments to their curriculum over the next few years), our preclinical curriculum is already really helpful for step2 material and has tons of useful information above and beyond what is tested on STEP1. The timing and depth of the clinical skills course is also great if you’re not pitting it against excessive STEP1 studying.

Given the choice between Long and another Texas school at the present, knowing what I know now about the board exam situation and the overall feel of this school, I’d say hands down this is the place to be.

Feel free to direct message me if you have any questions or anything about my change of opinion here. Hope this post was helpful for the few of you who might still be deciding

Although it's early, my goal is to match in PM&R (not too competitive of a specialty). I have interviews at McGovern, UTSW, & Long. Given what you know, and being that the specialty I hope to go into is not too competitive, which school/environment/culture would you recommend?

 

[clutchtho]

Although it's early, my goal is to match in PM&R (not too competitive of a specialty). I have interviews at McGovern, UTSW, & Long. Given what you know, and being that the specialty I hope to go into is not too competitive, which school/environment/culture would you recommend?

UTSW is obviously the best school ranking wise but i have classmates who didn't rank them first bc of culture/fit (and obvi other classmates who did and din't get in)

McGovern and Long are very similar from the looks of it. McGovern has the advantage of being slightly higher ranked (i think 52 vs 55) and in Houston med center. Long has the advantage of being slightly cheaper and don't have competition from Baylor in the city.

looking at match lists both see solid match into competitive fields (Long had everyone who applied ortho last 2 years get in and McGovern has more Ortho matches). For less competitive stuff like PMNR you probably should just decide through interviews which feels like the best fit, where your family is located, etc.

Both have similar primary care rates ~42% and Long has a higher percent of students going out of state (51 vs 42) which can be a positive or negative depending on your priorities lol

 

[Raider1]

UTSW is obviously the best school ranking wise but i have classmates who didn't rank them first bc of culture/fit (and obvi other classmates who did and din't get in)

McGovern and Long are very similar from the looks of it. McGovern has the advantage of being slightly higher ranked (i think 52 vs 55) and in Houston med center. Long has the advantage of being slightly cheaper and don't have competition from Baylor in the city.

looking at match lists both see solid match into competitive fields (Long had everyone who applied ortho last 2 years get in and McGovern has more Ortho matches). For less competitive stuff like PMNR you probably should just decide through interviews which feels like the best fit, where your family is located, etc.

Both have similar primary care rates ~42% and Long has a higher percent of students going out of state (51 vs 42) which can be a positive or negative depending on your priorities lol

Thank you. I from Houston, but my wife and kids enjoy and are excited to possibly move to SA. Was placing Long before McGovern for that reason, but as iffy about maybe missing out on UTSW. All you ever hear is "prestige," part of me says, that would be cool just to say I went to a top-ranked school. then another part of me is like "what does that matter if my goal isn't to get into some crazy competitive field/match?" anyways, just thinking out loud and thank you for your input. It's nice to have other people's viewpoints instead of just going crazy in my own head.

 

[clutchtho]

Thank you. I from Houston, but my wife and kids enjoy and are excited to possibly move to SA. Was placing Long before McGovern for that reason, but as iffy about maybe missing out on UTSW. All you ever hear is "prestige," part of me says, that would be cool just to say I went to a top-ranked school. then another part of me is like "what does that matter if my goal isn't to get into some crazy competitive field/match?" anyways, just thinking out loud and thank you for your input. It's nice to have other people's viewpoints instead of just going crazy in my own head.

For sure, I was literally in your shoes a few months ago (except not married but longterm GF also in Houston). I LOVED my interview day at Long and so for me it was an easy choice to rank it higher. I know its probably harder for you guys with everything being online.

I don't really know what I want to do but Long (and also Mcgovern and SW) have near 100% matches for students who ended up applying to competitive specialites. You just have to be honest with yourself and put the work in for that field.

Also one thing i would advise is to not go in 'set' on a particular field. Faculty here is great and you'll have tons of opportunities to look around at other specialities. At the end of the day, UTSW has the most prestige without a doubt. Long and McGovern both also have grades instead of pass fail so it can get stressful. But the most important choice is where you and your family want to live for the next 4 years of your life.

Ironically i got assigned a PMnR mentor so its been cool learning about it from her.

But yeah McGovern is very city like versus San Antonio which is more akin to a huge suburb (at least around the med center). I don't know how old your kids are but that may play a factor on what type of environment they'd rather live in.

 

[DokterMom]

Thank you. I from Houston, but my wife and kids enjoy and are excited to possibly move to SA. Was placing Long before McGovern for that reason, but as iffy about maybe missing out on UTSW. All you ever hear is "prestige," part of me says, that would be cool just to say I went to a top-ranked school. then another part of me is like "what does that matter if my goal isn't to get into some crazy competitive field/match?" anyways, just thinking out loud and thank you for your input. It's nice to have other people's viewpoints instead of just going crazy in my own head.

Houston, San Antonio and Dallas are very, very different places, as are the three schools you mention.
Surely, you felt more comfortable in some than others?

As you're probably aware, the area surrounding UTSW is not the best place to live on a med student budget. Houston and San Antonio both have better affordable apartments nearby. FWIW, I've also heard that Long has the happiest med students, so I'd factor that in as well if it felt like a good fit for you.

 

[Raider1]

Asking advice and updating on my previous post. I've been accepted to both UTSW & McGovern (both will be free to attend). I live in Houston (married/kids). If I go to UTSW I would rent an apt and visit home when I can. Is the "prestige" and increased residency options worth the move. (Also, I live 1 hr from McGovern so I would commute)

I know this is subjective and ultimately my decision, but I wouldn't mind hearing other's perspectives and opinions. IM AT A LOSS!

 

[m1redsox]

UTSW is a T20-25 school. It’s worth a move. Plus an hour commute would get reallyyyyy old.

 

[m222222]

I am not from TX. Is UTSW widely considered to have a cutthroat / competitive atmosphere among students?

 

[Eurycea]

Agree with other poster than commuting an hour across Houston each day would suck. Think long and hard about what that would look like every day.

I will disagree with "increased residency options". McGovern (and several other TX schools) are not as far away from UTSW as you might think. You won't have any problem matching into what you want from McGovern. It is 90% up to you and the effort you put in. You could make an argument you'd be better able to expend that effort with close family support in Houston.

 

[m222222]

As a student at UTSW I do not think the students are as cutthroat as people make it out to be. In a class of ~240 of course not everyone is peachy, but people readily share resources, Anki decks, try to come up with creative virtual study groups, etc. The school is far from perfect, but I can honestly say the class (at least mine and from what I hear others feel similarly) is probably more of a pro than a con. Just my .02c

Thanks! Can you elaborate on what you think UTSW does very well vs the areas where you think it falls short? I’m considering it and would love to learn more, particularly as someone who has never had the opportunity to visit.

 

[Skittsie13]

Can your family not move with you to Dallas? If they're stuck in Houston, I don't think the difference between UTSW and McGovern is enough to leave your spouse and children behind...