Vaccines 100% cause autism, right?

[ChrisGriffen]

If vaccines dont cause autism, then what does? The tooth fairy?

Gluten

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[loris]

If vaccines dont cause autism, then what does? The tooth fairy?

http://www.pathfindersforautism.org/resources/research/tooth_fairy_for_autism_

This seems extraordinarily suspicious.

 

[WillburCobb]

Gluten

Nah, that just makes your dick fly off.

 

[Kahreek]

Well expect for maybe antibiotics, but otherwise sounds about right.

and sewer systems, if you are into epidemiologic/public medicine stuff

 

[Kahreek]

^Yeah, this is true. Antibiotics are like SAS boot camps for bugs - in the end it just makes them stronger, better, faster.

I would have guessed that clean water / sanitation / clean food projects would have had a bigger impact than vaccines, but that's based on nothing other than my own intuition.

that is right

 

[giantswing]

What is it that someone said once?
"You're so dumb you don't know how dumb you are, and no one can explain how dumb you are to you, because you're too dumb to understand how dumb you are."
Paraphrased, source unknown.

Something like that.

 

[FutureOncologist]

SHOW YOU WHAT DATA DUDE! LIKE SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS ARE LOOKING FOR A DEBATE HERE AND I AM TELLING YOU, YOU HAVE THE WRONG EFFING ONE! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GOOGLE THE **** AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT EEEEEEVERYONE ELSE CAN. CAN YOU READ. READ WTH I SAID. NOT A PROFESSIONAL, NOT CLAIMING FACTS, JUST GIVING PERSPECTIVE ON WHY PEOPLE START TO QUESTION THE VACCINES. I DONT HAVE ANY DATA AND NEVER CLAIMED TO. HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR CAN YOU BE. THIS FORUM IS FOR CRAP, ANYTIME SOMEONE SAYS ANYTHING THAT ISNT TO THE LIKES OF A SCIENCE DRONE ITS ATTACKED. I WAS ASKING FOR YOUR INPUT SO WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT YOU WANT FROM ME. I AM GIVING YOU THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE AVERAGE PATIENT THAT MIGHT GO INTO A PEDS OFFICE AND DECLINE A VACCINATION. .....THATS IT! GOT IT! YOURE A FRIGGIN MEDICINE RESIDENT BUT YOU CANT READ? NOT TO MENTION THERE ARE LIKE 5 OTHER THREADS UNDER THIS ONE ON THE SAME TOPIC SO WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE PULLING IT FROM. THEIR ASS? ITS OUT THERE. I NEVER SAID IT WAS FACT, BUT ALL IT TAKES IS A SEED OF DOUBT WHEN IT COMES TO PEOPLES KIDS. SAVE YOUR SMART ASS SARCASM. IT IS WASTED HERE.

youre a f*** MD and incapable of responding to something with little more diplomacy than a 10 year old.

 

[Trek19]

It depends on the vaccine, and whether you get them here or in Europe. Heard of Pandemrix? Causes narcolepsy. If your patient is concerned about vaccinations and you dismiss it as "ignorant" you are not representing the profession well, IMO.

HPV vaccine? Pneumococcal? No thanks.

MMR? Polio? Hellllllllllllll yeah.

Also, antivaxxers are found in third world countries. Off hand I'm thinking of Nigeria's polio vaccine boycott that was pushed by islamic religious leaders. They told the people it was going to make them infertile and give them cancer or something.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

It depends on the vaccine, and whether you get them here or in Europe. Heard of Pandemrix? Causes narcolepsy. If your patient is concerned about vaccinations and you dismiss it as "ignorant" you are not representing the profession well, IMO.

HPV vaccine? Pneumococcal? No thanks.

MMR? Polio? Hellllllllllllll yeah.

Also, antivaxxers are found in third world countries. Off hand I'm thinking of Nigeria's polio vaccine boycott that was pushed by islamic religious leaders. They told the people it was going to make them infertile and give them cancer or something.

You should play in traffic. It is unbelievable how stupid most people are, but it makes me cringe thinking that someone might find this forum on a google search and read how stupid some medical students are also.

Don't take that as a compliment though....because you are clearly a pre-med, possibly a high schooler with that post.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

The way that these anti vaccine people spin and twist things, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets cited in some stupid ass article with a title like "even medical students dont believe in vaccines!"




Its dangerous and stupid for parents to not get vaccinated for google reasons.
There are no words for how dangerous and stupid you are for entering the medical field with those ideas. I genuinely hope you never are granted a medical license.

 

[fancymylotus]

edit or delete your posts, the vultures here will report you and you will get in trouble. srsly.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Haha I did, but you guys quoted me into the history books. Im probably banned now. Bye everyone!!

 

[Shikima]

This really was an epic fishing expedition.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

It's good to try to educate people with sensitivity towards their skeptical views of science, Pharma, and "conventional medicine" because that's one way we'll be able to spread the truth in the era of Dr. Google. Many people are emotion-driven, and will shut down if you try to act superior or just throw a bunch of science speak at them. It makes me think that med students would do well to take classes in sales and marketing because people's views can easily be swayed by charismatic speakers and storytelling.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Thanks. I have a bit of a temper with this topic as you may have noticed.

 

[Trek19]

You should play in traffic. It is unbelievable how stupid most people are, but it makes me cringe thinking that someone might find this forum on a google search and read how stupid some medical students are also.

Don't take that as a compliment though....because you are clearly a pre-med, possibly a high schooler with that post.

Wow, this goes to show how your position is more grounded in blind belief than anything. I'm not sure which particular part of my post sent you into a foot-stomping temper tantrum but here is the CDC's release on Pandemrix. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html

Basically, if your patient is concerned about vaccines after hearing stuff you can explain that no adjuvanted influenza vaccines are licensed or used in the United States. Or you could tell them to go play in traffic for challenging your belief system.

Also, I'm at a T10 US Allopathic school. Stop projecting your insecurities on me.

 

[Trek19]

The way that these anti vaccine people spin and twist things, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets cited in some stupid ass article with a title like "even medical students dont believe in vaccines!"




Its dangerous and stupid for parents to not get vaccinated for google reasons.
There are no words for how dangerous and stupid you are for entering the medical field with those ideas. I genuinely hope you never are granted a medical license.

What is your goal here? To put me back in my place with lock-step physicians chanting in unison? Where did the empathy and skepticism go? To properly persuade you need truth, trust, and dialog. So far we have been failing at this and from your attitude it is easy to see why. Patients need to feel like they can discuss their vaccine concerns with their physician without being arrogantly steamrolled. If they can't, then they will take their children to a crystal healer instead- and we will have failed them.

 

[VisionaryTics]

What is your goal here? To put me back in my place with lock-step physicians chanting in unison? Where did the empathy and skepticism go? To properly persuade you need truth, trust, and dialog. So far we have been failing at this and from your attitude it is easy to see why. Patients need to feel like they can discuss their vaccine concerns with their physician without being arrogantly steamrolled. If they can't, then they will take their children to a crystal healer instead- and we will have failed them.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

What is your goal here? To put me back in my place with lock-step physicians chanting in unison? Where did the empathy and skepticism go? To properly persuade you need truth, trust, and dialog. So far we have been failing at this and from your attitude it is easy to see why. Patients need to feel like they can discuss their vaccine concerns with their physician without being arrogantly steamrolled. If they can't, then they will take their children to a crystal healer instead- and we will have failed them.

Empathy? I do not empathize with anyone who wants to be in the healthcare profession who doesn't encourage patients to get vaccinated. When patients come to you with their concerns, you are expected to give them facts that they can make major health decision based off of.
You are actually a danger to patients. People are going to listen to you. If you ever make it into medical school your stupid opinions will be taken seriously by others.

No, I have no empathy for that.

 

[Trek19]

Empathy? I do not empathize with anyone who wants to be in the healthcare profession who doesn't encourage patients to get vaccinated. When patients come to you with their concerns, you are expected to give them facts that they can make major health decision based off of.
You are actually a danger to patients. People are going to listen to you. If you ever make it into medical school your stupid opinions will be taken seriously by others.

No, I have no empathy for that.

What are you even talking about, of course I am going to recommend vaccines to patients. And I'm going to know why I recommend them and which ones are more important than others. I think your reading comprehension is lacking. I will put it simply for you:

1) There are some issues with vaccines. Those issues are not as bad as the diseases they prevent. Dismissing the problems without addressing them is arrogant and stupid.
2) Anti-vaxxer movements are not new. They are not just a first world problem. Knowing where and why they happen is important to solving this issue.
3) MMR and polio vaccinations, I think, should be mandatory to receive social benefits due to the danger to society these diseases represent.
4) Pneumoccocal and HPV vaccinations are overrated.***

***But I still personally got them, anyway. Along with small pox, rabies, anthrax, jap encephalitis and a whole lot of other stuff most people don't need.

 

[Trek19]

Anti-vaxxers love to rally around crap like Pandremix to say - HAHA SEE VACCINES ARE EVILZZZ.

Pandremix is just an example of a medication with a difficult to detect adverse event in standard clinical trials. It actually represents a success of adverse effect monitoring and reporting systems, rather than the failure that anti-vaxxers wish it to represent.

It also says nothing about the relative safety of other vaccines - it was a vaccine developed specifically for H1N1 and basically only used in the single 2009 outbreak.

The reason they rally around this crap is because many physicians have never heard of Pandremix or dismiss it immediately as "crap" rather than address it head on. Your explanation is exactly what those patients need to hear, not some arrogant, paternalistic BS. "STUPID ANTIVAXXERS NO PROBLEM HERE I HOPE YOU DIE" is not a mature way to solve "HAHA SEE VACCINES ARE EVILZZZ" is it?

 

[Trek19]

The reason they rally around this crap is because many physicians have never heard of Pandremix or dismiss it immediately as "crap" rather than address it head on. Your explanation is exactly what those patients need to hear, not some arrogant, paternalistic BS. "STUPID ANTIVAXXERS NO PROBLEM HERE I HOPE YOU DIE" is not a mature way to solve "HAHA SEE VACCINES ARE EVILZZZ" is it?

 

[Wordead]

What are you even talking about, of course I am going to recommend vaccines to patients. And I'm going to know why I recommend them and which ones are more important than others. I think your reading comprehension is lacking. I will put it simply for you:

1) There are some issues with vaccines. Those issues are not as bad as the diseases they prevent. Dismissing the problems without addressing them is arrogant and stupid.
2) Anti-vaxxer movements are not new. They are not just a first world problem. Knowing where and why they happen is important to solving this issue.
3) MMR and polio vaccinations, I think, should be mandatory to receive social benefits due to the danger to society these diseases represent.
4) Pneumoccocal and HPV vaccinations are overrated.***

***But I still personally got them, anyway. Along with small pox, rabies, anthrax, jap encephalitis and a whole lot of other stuff most people don't need.

Why are pneumococcal and hpv vaccinations overrated?

Also, your own cdc link says there is no link between narcolepsy and vaccination

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Why are pneumococcal and hpv vaccinations overrated?

Also, your own cdc link says there is no link between narcolepsy and vaccination

This idiot also probably thinks science and research are overrated.

Be prepared for a nice rebuttal to the CDC statement you cited. I am prepared for rain man over here to post a pretty sweet huffington post article about how vaccines really do cause narcolepsy.

 

[Trek19]

Why are pneumococcal and hpv vaccinations overrated?

Also, your own cdc link says there is no link between narcolepsy and vaccination

Go back and read it again, it says the US-licensed H1N1 vaccine used in the US had no association with narcolepsy. Unlike the European version.

HPV vaccination is recommended for 11 year olds but dumps antibodies to cancer causing strains before they are even in their 20s. I will pull up the research if you like. Pneumococcal has a ridiculous NNT without a change in mortality in seniors.

 

[Trek19]

This idiot also probably thinks science and research are overrated.

Be prepared for a nice rebuttal to the CDC statement you cited. I am prepared for rain man over here to post a pretty sweet huffington post article about how vaccines really do cause narcolepsy.

Okay, I will walk you through the article. H1N1 vaccine used in Europe showed association with narcolepsy in children in multiple European countries. That vaccine was not licensed in the US. In response to these findings, the CDC looked at the vaccine used in the US and said there was no association with narcolepsy. Understand now?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Okay, I will walk you through the article. H1N1 vaccine used in Europe showed association with narcolepsy in children in multiple European countries. That vaccine was not licensed in the US. In response to these findings, the CDC looked at the vaccine used in the US and said there was no association with narcolepsy. Understand now?

Wow yea I totally understand now thanks.

 

[ACSurgeon]

You underestimate the intelligence and awareness of the average physician. I'm a surgery resident and had heard about pandremix my intern year.

You also mistake venting frustration on a physician centered website (I.e. our safe place) with ignorance and malice. The way we talk about these issues here, an emotional outlet for our own frustrations, isn't representative of how we communicate with patients

You are very calm and level headed. Just putting this out there...

 

[Trek19]

You underestimate the intelligence and awareness of the average physician. I'm a surgery resident and had heard about pandremix my intern year.

You also mistake venting frustration on a physician centered website (I.e. our safe place) with ignorance and malice. The way we talk about these issues here, an emotional outlet for our own frustrations, isn't representative of how we communicate with patients

I would agree with you but Wordead and ChrisGriffen, for example, can't even properly read and comprehend a CDC news release.

 

[Wordead]

Go back and read it again, it says the US-licensed H1N1 vaccine used in the US had no association with narcolepsy. Unlike the European version.

HPV vaccination is recommended for 11 year olds but dumps antibodies to cancer causing strains before they are even in their 20s. I will pull up the research if you like. Pneumococcal has a ridiculous NNT without a change in mortality in seniors.

What does the bold statement above mean? Sure, let's see the research please.

And why on earth would you look at NNT and mortality for a vaccine? Those sound like terrible metrics for a vaccine's efficacy.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

.

 

[Trek19]

@ChrisGriffen Well you deleted your post, but I wasn't offended. I took your gleeful agreement and "dogpiling" in post #133 as tacit agreement with his position.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Yea we are done here. Please PLEASE post your stupid thoughts on this topic on your admissions essays when you apply.

 

[Trek19]

What does the bold statement above mean? Sure, let's see the research please.

And why on earth would you look at NNT and mortality for a vaccine? Those sound like terrible metrics for a vaccine's efficacy.

The bolded refers to the quadrivalent HPV vaccinations lack of long term anti-HPV neutralizing antibody levels. I will get the research and post it here or PM you if you like. As far as metrics for expensive vaccine efficacy, what do they teach you to use?

Edit: Here is a recent abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25483701
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf --- Table 20/21

I think the quadrivalent vaccination is a start, but without more research it shouldn't be replacing pap smears any time soon (like they want to do in Australia).

 

[Trek19]

Yea we are done here. Please PLEASE post your stupid thoughts on this topic on your admissions essays when you apply.

Yawn.

 

[Patassa]

Trek19 is handling himself well. Your control over your emotions in the face of irrational lashing out will serve you well in the future. Doctors aren't known for their critical thinking, med students even less so, the response toward you is typical.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Trek19 is handling himself well. Your control over your emotions in the face of irrational lashing out will serve you well in the future. Doctors aren't known for their critical thinking, med students even less so, the response toward you is typical.

You should wait until you actually are in medical school before you weigh in on how medical students and doctors think.

 

[Psai]

Trek19 is handling himself well. Your control over your emotions in the face of irrational lashing out will serve you well in the future. Doctors aren't known for their critical thinking, med students even less so, the response toward you is typical.

Who are you? I find it difficult to believe that you're actually a medical student

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Who are you? I find it difficult to believe that you're actually a medical student

He's not. I checked post history

 

[Patassa]

You two girls are so cute.

And one of you really sucks at deductive reasoning.

Circle your wagons.

 

[Patassa]

Who are you? I find it difficult to believe that you're actually a medical student

Who are you? Show me yours and I'll show you mine, precious.

 

[plumazul]

 

[Ost3oclast]

In b4

 

[fancymylotus]

Omg stop already before one of you gets banned

 

[Patassa]

Back on topic. @Trek19. You're a-OK in my book. Not sure about all this anymosity being directed toward you or hopefully toward me because I've taken up for you. (Maybe it should stay in the DO forum for the DO med students?)

Questioning is fine and good. It's the dogma blow hards you gotta worry about. Those who become angry, threatening, vengeful or just irrational at the slightest sign of their world view being questioned do nothing but show the weakness of themselves or their position. Go and brush your shoulders off.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Look its a forum. Every post reads with a little more bite than it really should but Im man enough to apologize, i was being a dick. Sorry trek, i was being over the top

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

It depends on the vaccine, and whether you get them here or in Europe. Heard of Pandemrix? Causes narcolepsy. If your patient is concerned about vaccinations and you dismiss it as "ignorant" you are not representing the profession well, IMO.

HPV vaccine? Pneumococcal? No thanks.

MMR? Polio? Hellllllllllllll yeah.

Also, antivaxxers are found in third world countries. Off hand I'm thinking of Nigeria's polio vaccine boycott that was pushed by islamic religious leaders. They told the people it was going to make them infertile and give them cancer or something.

Certainly, there are anti-vaxxers in developing countries. A section of the militarized north of Nigeria staged a boycott of vaccines for complicated reasons, some having to do with superstitious fears of a sterilization/AIDS spreading conspiracy, and more legitimately to do with concurrent deaths involving the testing of an unlicensed fluoroquinolone. Northern Nigerian militants have made the world news in more recent years with even more astounding acts of small mindedness.

In related news, the Taliban have taken a prominent role in the anti-vax world stage by murdering vaccination workers in Pakistan. This is for a combination of ideological and practical reasons (if your goal in life is to subvert the modern world into a medieval theocracy).

So yes, there are people in the developing world who are championing the cause of their religious exemption, if you will.

In the United States, the anti-vaccination movement is predominantly white, middle class, educated (though not in biological sciences), and largely sequestered from disease. By and large, it a population with the good health derived from adequate nutrition and a functioning public health system, combined with the disposable income to seek "alternative" therapies to indulge their ennui and treat their non-illnesses. With this, there is also the luxury of combining centuries abandoned hypotheses of vitalism with a foggy grasp of "new paradigm shifting sciences" such as epigenetics and nutrigenomics to create an appealing set of mantras and self reinforcing belief systems that have little to do do with objective reality.

What do these disparate groups have in common? Willful ignorance. It is called ignorance because it is ignorance.

Certainly, dismissing concerns as ignorant will alienate patients. I doubt most people here would do that to their patients, be they gum smacking 24 y/o yoga instructors bloviating about nutrition or impoverished Nigerian or Pakistani families. Being able to express dismay on an anonymous internet forum is a different thing.

However, when you make queries like "Heard of Pandemrix? Causes narcolepsy." expect an acerbic response. A blithe statement like that could have come straight from LivingWhole, VacTruth, or AgeofAutism. I am sure that you know that "associated with an increased risk of" is not the same as "causes", yet you said it anyway. Were you interested in discussing adverse neurological sequelae of vaccination? Not a productive way to initiate the conversation.

However, I too find the sociology of the anti-vax movement interesting. Most of my perspective comes from articles published in Pediatrics and Vaccine, as well as my own internet forays and personal observations from living in Woo-ville, along with an interest in global health. Feel free to PM me if you have any other interesting sources.

Salaam,

Brick

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

A blithe statement like that could have come straight from LivingWhole, VacTruth, or AgeofAutism.

Don't forget Natural News. They're the same people who rail against using microwaves. It's disturbing.

Also, props for using the word "bloviating," haha. Insightful post!

 

[Psai]

Nvm

 

[Trek19]

Certainly, there are anti-vaxxers in developing countries. A section of the militarized north of Nigeria staged a boycott of vaccines for complicated reasons, some having to do with superstitious fears of a sterilization/AIDS spreading conspiracy, and more legitimately to do with concurrent deaths involving the testing of an unlicensed fluoroquinolone. Northern Nigerian militants have made the world news in more recent years with even more astounding acts of small mindedness.

In related news, the Taliban have taken a prominent role in the anti-vax world stage by murdering vaccination workers in Pakistan. This is for a combination of ideological and practical reasons (if your goal in life is to subvert the modern world into a medieval theocracy).

So yes, there are people in the developing world who are championing the cause of their religious exemption, if you will.

In the United States, the anti-vaccination movement is predominantly white, middle class, educated (though not in biological sciences), and largely sequestered from disease. By and large, it a population with the good health derived from adequate nutrition and a functioning public health system, combined with the disposable income to seek "alternative" therapies to indulge their ennui and treat their non-illnesses. With this, there is also the luxury of combining centuries abandoned hypotheses of vitalism with a foggy grasp of "new paradigm shifting sciences" such as epigenetics and nutrigenomics to create an appealing set of mantras and self reinforcing belief systems that have little to do do with objective reality.

What do these disparate groups have in common? Willful ignorance. It is called ignorance because it is ignorance.

Certainly, dismissing concerns as ignorant will alienate patients. I doubt most people here would do that to their patients, be they gum smacking 24 y/o yoga instructors bloviating about nutrition or impoverished Nigerian or Pakistani families. Being able to express dismay on an anonymous internet forum is a different thing.

However, when you make queries like "Heard of Pandemrix? Causes narcolepsy." expect an acerbic response. A blithe statement like that could have come straight from LivingWhole, VacTruth, or AgeofAutism. I am sure that you know that "associated with an increased risk of" is not the same as "causes", yet you said it anyway. Were you interested in discussing adverse neurological sequelae of vaccination? Not a productive way to initiate the conversation.

However, I too find the sociology of the anti-vax movement interesting. Most of my perspective comes from articles published in Pediatrics and Vaccine, as well as my own internet forays and personal observations from living in Woo-ville, along with an interest in global health. Feel free to PM me if you have any other interesting sources.

Salaam,

Brick

Well put. I think another factor that the various anti-vax groups have in common is a mistrust of medical professionals, maybe due to perceived loss of credibility by physicians.

Yes, my original comment was off-the-cuff, but not intended to be inflammatory. At the time I thought there was an established mechanism, but I see that it is not yet the case. The point I was trying to make is that there are indeed adverse neurological events associated with vaccination, and dismissing them off-hand is a good way to lose credibility in the eyes of anyone with an internet connection. That loss of credibility applies to us all.

I really appreciate your thoughtful post.