Vanderbilt ($$) vs. UCLA ($$$) vs. Stanford ($?) vs. UCSF ($?)

[bulbabulba]

Thanks in advance for any input you may have! I was blessed to receive multiple great acceptances, and I just want to make as much of an informed decision as possible. What is the most important to me in choosing a medical school would be (in no particular order): the cost, the fit, and how well I am trained for whatever residency I end up going to.

I know that no matter which one of these schools I go to, my training will be amazing, so I guess the deciding factors would be cost and fit. My financial situation is hard since my family can’t support me and is not super well-off. My projected family contribution for FAFSA is ~$8,000/year. I’ve never been in huge debt before and I still haven’t heard back from financial aid at UCSF or Stanford, which would shape my decision for sure.

UCLA
Pros

• Geffen Scholar = Full tuition, room and board, and expenses all paid for! :O
• More residency choices for my SO
• I got into the PRIME program, which is a small community of students that care about serving the underserved and can be a community for me
• Highly ranked in research and primary care (not sure how important these US News rankings are?), but the patient population (in the various hospitals) is diverse which will train me well to work in underserved areas in the future

Cons

• I didn't really feel like I "fit" at UCLA while touring the medical school. But I was also really nervous and preoccupied about the interview
• The large class size (170) seems a bit overwhelming to me
• Commuting to all of the hospitals 3rd year sounds stressful but I guess others have gone through it
• I'm not a fan of the LA area

Vanderbilt
Pros

• Full tuition scholarship! (but not housing/board like UCLA Geffen)
• New environment for me to explore (Nashville seems exciting and up-in-coming)
• I am URM, and the diversity office seems active and engaging
• I am very interested in having a 1 year pre-clinical curriculum. The students I met like their professors and appreciate the extra time to distinguish themselves for residency applications

Cons

• Far away from my SO in med school and difficult to match if he doesn't score an away there
• Far away from my family (entire family in California, brother in the Northeast)
• I've heard the hospitals don't have a very diverse patient population

UCSF
Pros

• I really felt at home here! The students I met cared about the same things I did
• Highly ranked in research and primary care (not sure how important these US News rankings are?). Research is great here and the hospitals are new and fancy, with a very diverse patient population
• (still pending) I may get into the PRIME program, which is a small community of students that care about serving the underserved and can be a community for me
  
• Close to college friends and family

Cons

• Rent is cray and I was hoping to live by myself in med school which most likely won't be possible in SF...
• I don't know what my financial package will be (still awaiting need-based aid); the admins even admitted UCSF doesn't have much $$ given lack of public funds
• Competitive for my SO to match in his particular specialty
• The larger class size (~150) seems a bit overwhelming to me

Stanford
Pros

• I have a solid set of advisors at this institution (as well as upperclassmen that I know)
• It's very closely tied to the undergrad and other grad programs, and I would be interested in collaborating/working on an interdisciplinary project
• Close to college friends and family
• Research opportunities are great and I can take a year off to dive deeper if I wanna

Cons

• I really do not like living in the suburbs
• I don't know what my financial package will be (still awaiting need-based aid)
• Multiple students have complained about the caliber of the teaching which worries me, but I also know much of the 1st 2 years is self-study

Thank you all for any insight or input you may have ^_^

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[frosted2]

Nashville suuuuuucks compared to LA. NO comparison.

UCLA ALL THE WAY!!!

 

[BeingTime]

From what you wrote I would narrow it down to UCLA or UCSF.


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[medivh101]

Congrats on the great acceptances! It's great you got scholarships at Vandy and UCLA. Could you elaborate more on why you found Nashville more exciting than LA?

 

[DNC127]

LA sucks.

If I were you I would choose Stanford. Reasons: 1. The top programs seem to "inbreed" when it comes to residency applications. 2. This is your one shot to wear "Stanford Medicine" hoodies the rest of your life, which is about as cool as an honor as it gets. 3. Sports. I went to every home football game this year and it was huge for my mental health lol.

But then again, I couldn't be paid to live in LA, and I place a lot of emphasis on hoodies and athletics so we may have different mindsets.

 

[To be MD]

@Goro was just writing the other week that it would be foolish to turn down a full ride at a top20 school for a top5.

I would strongly suggest UCLA!

 

[neekzg]

Full ride is incredibly hard to turn down, but I actually have some classmates at UCSF who turned down the Geffen scholarship to come here. I believe they were able to get really generous offers from financial aid but I haven't asked exactly how much. Indeed the cost of living in the city is pretty crazy but most of us who need it receive the Cost of Living supplement which is an additional grant offered to students living off campus to make the rent a bit easier to swallow. If living by yourself is a really huge priority, this is unfortunately impossible in the city unless you're really making big bucks. I went to UCLA for undergrad and thought Westwood/LA was a pretty sweet place to live but so far SF has been way more fun and accessible without needing a car.

I'm in the PRIME program--it's really great to have the small community and extra support, but to be honest, the entire institution as a whole feels like an extension of the values and passions our program shares. It is a very social justice oriented place that is really mindful of prioritizing diversity, equity and inclusion.

Good luck with your decision! Let me know if I can answer any questions about UCSF or PRIME. (Or the UCLA Westwood area)

 

[hubbsbubbs]

I'm super biased on this one (for a wide variety of reasons), but here we go anyways. It doesn't sound like you really liked UCLA? Full-ride is awesome, but being happy for four years is important too. I had a friend who got a full-ride (albeit undergrad) to UCLA but didn't vibe well with the school, ended up having regrets. Stanford gives good financial aid packages, and there's lots of cash going around for med students who want to do research (there's a formal program for it, called MedScholars -- super simple to get set up with it, I know I a lot of students who do it). Then again, Palo Alto is safe and all but not really the place to be. Not much in the way of liquor stores, underserved populations, or young people (except on campus, trust me on this one, old people are everywhere here). There are underserved in East Palo Alto, but once you're there, East PA is actually pretty far off from Stanford. You won't get opportunities like you would in PRIME at UCLA/UCSF.

From my standpoint, UCLA and Stanford look like the best options (mostly for financial reasons). It sounds like UCSF is where you fit in best? But the cost of living is ridiculous. I've lived near all three schools, and the amount I paid to share a 1 bedroom with someone was $800 in Westwood, $1050 in Palo Alto, $1350 in SF. To be fair I was young when in LA and had a gross lifestyle. Also, if you live in the sunset in SF it wouldn't be so bad, I think, and it's close to the Parnassus campus.

The reality is that all three schools are going to give you an exceptional education and research opportunities. They're basically the three best schools in CA to study medicine. It should come down to cost, location, proximity to family, fit, and populations of interest.

 

[frosted2]

I literally know someone who turned down the Geffen scholarship for a top 5 medical school, and he has spent over 300k and says it was the worst decision he ever made.

It so incredibly stupid to turn down a full-ride at one of the best schools in the country. So. Stupid.

Also, 170 students is not a large class size. That is below average. Harvard's class is about that size.

I encourage you to not do stupid things. Good luck .

 

[frosted2]

I am a female and I would give my left *** for a Geffen scholarship.

 

[oopsaloo]

I literally know someone who turned down the Geffen scholarship for a top 5 medical school, and he has spent over 300k and says it was the worst decision he ever made.

It so incredibly stupid to turn down a full-ride at one of the best schools in the country. So. Stupid.

Also, 170 students is not a large class size. That is below average. Harvard's class is about that size.

I encourage you to not do stupid things. Good luck .

I have to disagree. I don't that it's "incredibly stupid" to turn down a full ride, especially if you're turning it down under the right set of circumstances (which is subjective, BTW). In fact, I'd almost argue that it's misinformed to think that turning down a full ride is stupid. OP, check out a thread I started for my roommate's dilemma on pretty much the same topic: Has anyone ever picked a top 5 school over a full ride to a top 20-25 school?

For example, if you really prefer one school over another, see yourself not being happy at the school you got the full ride at, or have certain career goals that are only possible because of the opportunities at certain schools. Or if finances are not a big factor in your decision.

I know several people who turned down full rides to attend top 5 schools and are incredibly happy with their situation. I also know others who have taken up the full rides over other awesome med schools and are enjoying their financial freedom. It goes both ways (or maybe I just happen to know a bunch of happy med students).

The bottom line is, it's not stupid either way you choose - because you're making an informed decision. It's understandable if you choose the full ride, and it's also understandable if you want to go with a different school because of other reasons.

That being said, if you like UCLA and see yourself thriving there, go for the Geffen Scholarship! It is an amazing opportunity. If you dislike UCLA and feel like you might not be happy there, because of fit or other reasons, then don't be harsh on yourself if you decide to turn it down in the end.

 

[To be MD]

I have to disagree. I don't that it's "incredibly stupid" to turn down a full ride, especially if you're turning it down under the right set of circumstances (which is subjective, BTW). In fact, I'd almost argue that it's misinformed to think that turning down a full ride is stupid. OP, check out a thread I started for my roommate's dilemma on pretty much the same topic: Has anyone ever picked a top 5 school over a full ride to a top 20-25 school?

For example, if you really prefer one school over another, see yourself not being happy at the school you got the full ride at, or have certain career goals that are only possible because of the opportunities at certain schools. Or if finances are not a big factor in your decision.

I know several people who turned down full rides to attend top 5 schools and are incredibly happy with their situation. I also know others who have taken up the full rides over other awesome med schools and are enjoying their financial freedom. It goes both ways (or maybe I just happen to know a bunch of happy med students).

The bottom line is, it's not stupid either way you choose - because you're making an informed decision. It's understandable if you choose the full ride, and it's also understandable if you want to go with a different school because of other reasons.

That being said, if you like UCLA and see yourself thriving there, go for the Geffen Scholarship! It is an amazing opportunity. If you dislike UCLA and feel like you might not be happy there, because of fit or other reasons, then don't be harsh on yourself if you decide to turn it down in the end.

Turning down UCLA for a school 7 rankings higher is the utter definition of *****ic.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

 

[oopsaloo]

Turning down UCLA for a school 7 rankings higher is the utter definition of *****ic.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

Did I mention anywhere in my post that ranking is a reason someone should turn down UCLA? No. If other factors played a role (e.g. family, SO circumstances, unique opportunities that are important for OP's career goals) and finances were not a huge factor (e.g. significant aid from another school), then the OP would NOT be *****ic for turning down UCLA because they have their own reasons.

And I'm not arguing that OP should turn down UCLA. I actually voted for UCLA in the OP's poll because it is an incredible opportunity. However, don't make the OP feel bad for making his or her own decisions either way. They are clearly not *****ic because they've secured these awesome acceptances.

 

[To be MD]

Did I mention anywhere in my post that ranking is a reason someone should turn down UCLA? No. If other factors played a role (e.g. family, SO circumstances, unique opportunities that are important for OP's career goals) and finances were not a huge factor (e.g. significant aid from another school), then the OP would NOT be *****ic for turning down UCLA because they have their own reasons.

And I'm not arguing that OP should turn down UCLA. I actually voted for UCLA in the OP's poll because it is an incredible opportunity. However, don't make the OP feel bad for making his or her own decisions either way. They are clearly not *****ic because they've secured these awesome acceptances.

I'm not calling you anything or OP anything--the decision has not yet been made.

I've met plenty of people who are geniuses in many aspects of their life and complete idiots when it comes to money, relationships, etc. I would say someone who spent 300k for 7 rankings belongs in the "financial idiot" crowd. But, that's okay. It's not my money. I'm sure OP will enjoy med school wherever s/he goes.

As the saying goes ("stupid is as stupid does"), being stupid means making stupid decisions.

 

[neekzg]

I literally know someone who turned down the Geffen scholarship for a top 5 medical school, and he has spent over 300k and says it was the worst decision he ever made.

It so incredibly stupid to turn down a full-ride at one of the best schools in the country. So. Stupid.

Also, 170 students is not a large class size. That is below average. Harvard's class is about that size.

I encourage you to not do stupid things. Good luck .

If your other option lands you in 300k extra in debt then I agree, this is not a good decision. If you happen to get a good enough scholarship such that attending the other school ends up being tuition free or better, I think it's worth considering the other factors such as fit, proximity to social support, where you want to spend the next four years.

 

[Astra]

If Stanford costs around 150k, I'd go there. Otherwise, UCLA

 

[kneeshoe]

First, I would narrow down to UCLA vs UCSF vs Stanford. Stanford is an amazing opportunity and I think you should highly consider it once you receive a financial aid decision - they are usually quite generous. I'm not quite sure what you meant by the caliber of teaching. The research opportunities here are really limitless. If you really do not like suburbs, then I would rule out Stanford here.

In regards to UCLA vs USCF, a full ride is VERY hard to say no to, especially for any school in top 10-20. Based on what you said, I believe UCSF is the clear choice for you if the financial aid package is generous enough. The diverse population is found at both UCLA and UCSF, so that isn't a problem. The rent for UCSF is high I agree, but if you really felt that you fit there better, than it is worth it. Also not sure how much your SO factors into this, but they should be fine regardless. None of those class sizes are considered large, btw.

TLDR choose Stanford or if aid is generous enough, choose UCSF if aid is generous enough and since you felt like you fit in there, otherwise, definitely go for UCLA (I think you would fit in well here too - give it another shot. The PRIME program is basically equivalent and you will be in a great community)

 

[Radiata20]

@bulbabulba Current UCLA Geffen Scholar here. I think there are valid reasons to turn down a full-ride here or a similar institution, especially if there are strong enough personal ties to a particular region. For example, maybe you have an ailing family member whom you'd like to be nearby, and be able to easily visit on their deathbed while in med school. No one here could fault you for turning down this scholarship for that. The cost of and debt incurred from medical education is significant, and you will keep it for decades. But the memories of being with your loved one during their final moments, those you will keep for a lifetime.

I certainly know friends who were in the same position as me and choose to go to Stanford/UCSF/Ivy/Hopkins, instead of taking the Geffen Scholarship. For what it's worth, all of us are equally happy at the moment, despite making different decisions when faced with the same choice. Most of the above posters have covered the pros and cons pretty well already, so I'll just try to briefly address some of your concerns about our school, and throw in one piece of advice and an offer at the end:

• The large class size (170) seems a bit overwhelming to me--Certainly a valid consideration, and one that I thought about. I went to a VERY small high school, with a smaller class size than almost any med school aside from Mayo and CCLCM, so trust me when I say I understand the benefits of a small class size as well as anyone. No, you will not know all 180 of your classmates here as well as you would have known your classmates at somewhere with 90 students per class. But statistically, you will meet 2x as many people with whom you get along, 2x as many people with whom you share the same strange/quirky/unique interests, and 2x as many best friends whom you'll keep for life.

• Not sure how important these US News rankings are?--Haha let's be real, they're not. But if you do care about rankings, Ronald Reagan Medical Center (our teaching hospital across the street from our classrooms) is ranked #1 in California, as well as #1 on the entire West Coast, which our deans are proud of in a very tongue-in-cheek manner. And seeing as the in-house bias for UCLA Health-affiliated residency programs accepting UCLA DGSOM graduates is quite significant...just saying.

• Commuting to all of the hospitals 3rd year sounds stressful but I guess others have gone through it--If you don't want to commute, you could always rank the Reagan continuity highly, and simply be walking across the street from campus to do the majority of your rotations. The VA and Cedars are also both within easy driving distance. With the ones farther away, some students will move to an apt closer to their rotation sites.

• I'm not a fan of the LA area--I'm not a fan of "LA" in general either, but we are in Westwood which is VERY different from what people think of when they think of LA. We are in an idyllic bubble next to Beverly Hills and Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, on a thriving academic campus filled with undergraduates, graduates, and professional students in every field you could imagine. But at the same time, we are within easy driving distance to the VA, and safety net hospitals are only a little farther away. This, I assume, is a big benefit for you, considering your PRIME interests.

• I didn't really feel like I "fit" at UCLA while touring the medical school. But I was also really nervous and preoccupied about the interview--Did you have a chance to attend our Second Look Weekend? If not, I can arrange for you to revisit and "shadow" a student for a day here if you'd like, to get a better feel for the school. Let me know if you'd like this, I'm confident you'll fit in just fine.

Finally, I've said this in a few other threads, but I only repeat it because I think it's the most important thing to tell you. (You can see that I try to be unbiased about this, and put the same advice in a thread even when there it likely argued for the poster to choose the other institution, which was giving him/her a better scholarship than UCLA.)

Ask any attendings you know for their advice. The mentors who know you can give you better, more tailored insight than anyone here on this forum. I was faced with a similar decision, between UCLA with the scholarship vs. another top school in CA. I had personal ties related to the other school, and had a hard time letting go of it. But after asking all 9 attendings who knew me, every single one without even the slightest hesitation said to go to UCLA without question. It wasn't the only thing that swung my decision-making, but the advice of 9 seasoned attendings isn't something to take lightly either. After mapping out exactly what effect the debt would have on my monthly finances for x years, and making my peace with being farther away from personal ties up north, I committed here and have never since regretted it. Hope to see you here in July

 

[binderpaper]

OP do you mind posting your stats/ECs? Those are some amazing acceptances!

 

[bulbabulba]

Thank you everyone everyone for your input! Haha I got a bit overwhelmed by all of the responses at first but you guys really have some great insight and it has really helped shaped my decision-making process. I am so grateful to hear all of your ideas!

So I've been to Second Look for Vandy and Stanford, and also got my Financial Aid packages from Stanford and UCSF. These new updates have allowed me to pretty much rule out Vandy. Although I enjoyed the Second Look, I really don't think it would be the right decision for me to choose Vanderbilt over UCLA and the Geffen Scholarship.

The Financial Aid packages at both Stanford and UCSF have really forced me to think about my finances and how it will affect my long-term wellness. USCF would put me at about $160k in debt, federal unsubsidized loans. I haven't gone to the UCSF Second Look just yet but what I've heard from students I've spoken with doesn't change much of my impression of the school. It still seems awesome with a great social mission which really fits what I'm looking for in a program. Also, a lot of the debt at UCSF (~30k per year so ~120k overall) would be in living expenses . I knew it was expensive to live in The Bay but I wasn't expecting THAT. So if any current students have any insight into reducing that living cost in anyway I would appreciate hearing more about that!

Stanford on the other hand, would be <$100k of debt with no interest (they have these fancy Stanford loans that have a 0% interest rate?). Many current students spoke with me about ways to reduce that while in school (paid research through MedScholars like you mentioned @hubbsbubbs --thanks! They also spoke about TAing, being a Grad School RA which is 0% work, etc). And the amorphous "fit" felt perfect during the Second Look. I truly enjoyed my time with every single person I met! It seemed like the university worked really hard to connect students with mentors and opportunities that will propel their career forward. This is just ~20 hours of an impression though so...

And for UCLA, the more I contemplate it the more I realize how important finances are because of my background and the lack of social stability there is in my family (I love my family to death we're just a bit poor >_< ). I can definitely see how removing that burden of debt would make me a more focused and less anxious medical school student. Also based on the students I've spoken to, UCLA seems like a great place, and after spending a small amount of time in Westwood I know I could grow to appreciate it and the city as a whole. I have gotten the impression that the advising at UCLA PRIME is wonderful, although I don't know much about the advising at UCLA overall. If anyone can speak on that I would love to hear your input.

So like some of you suggested, I've decided that Vanderbilt isn't quite for me. The debt at UCSF seems a bit daunting, and based on what I have heard from Stanford students, >$100k could be manageable? It all seems scary to me tbh. And for UCLA, I am planning to find the time to spend at least a day or so on campus to get a feel of everything even though I wasn't able to come to Second Look.

Therefore if I could ask a follow-up question since you have all been so helpful: do these new numbers from financial aid ($160k at UCSF and >$100k at Stanford) change very much?

 

[differentiating]

The Financial Aid packages at both Stanford and UCSF have really forced me to think about my finances and how it will affect my long-term wellness. USCF would put me at about $160k in debt, federal unsubsidized loans. I haven't gone to the UCSF Second Look just yet but what I've heard from students I've spoken with doesn't change much of my impression of the school. It still seems awesome with a great social mission which really fits what I'm looking for in a program. Also, a lot of the debt at UCSF (~30k per year so ~120k overall) would be in living expenses . I knew it was expensive to live in The Bay but I wasn't expecting THAT. So if any current students have any insight into reducing that living cost in anyway I would appreciate hearing more about that!

I'm honestly not sure if anyone takes out the full COA - I don't, and I don't have any need-based funding, though I will admit that my rent is likely lower than many of my classmates'. But IIRC, the COA is meant to overestimate the actual costs somewhat so as to allow for people to take out those extra loans if needed for any reason.

Options for reducing cost off the top of my head include applying for on-campus housing (it's a lottery system, but depending on whether you're willing to have roommates/etc., can save significant amounts on rent for 2 years), limiting going out drinking/for food/etc., part-time jobs (not recommended but people do it), & applying for scholarships where eligible. It's also worth noting that (for 1st year at least) you shouldn't be spending $1000+ on books, so you can save some money there as well.

That being said, obviously if money's a major concern, the Geffen is going to be more bang for your buck (even if it means you're stuck in LA).

 

[dpmd]

You say part of your motivation is working with underserved communities. Think about how much more flexible you can be with job choices once you finish up in whatever specialty you choose if you have no debt to pay off. Also, think about how much financial help you would be able to give your family if you have no debt. 100k is not a lot compared to people with 300k but it is enough that you might think twice about spending half your time at a free clinic or on international medical missions.

Also, yeah, LA kinda sucks but having done a rotation at UCLA I found that there is a little community right around the hospital that you can walk to and hang out with friends or do your shopping so you don't have to brave LA traffic all the time. And you could always go places on holidays or long weekends to get your fix of whatever kind of setting you desire (even if it means taking out a few thousand dollars worth of loans per year to fund it while still coming out way ahead financially)or to visit your friends (which honestly, it might be better if you aren't right by them or you might not make as many or as close friends at school since it will be easier to stay with the group you already know, plus if they aren't as busy as you it might tempt you to flake on studying or school related activities to spend time with them)

 

[hubbsbubbs]

You say part of your motivation is working with underserved communities. Think about how much more flexible you can be with job choices once you finish up in whatever specialty you choose if you have no debt to pay off. Also, think about how much financial help you would be able to give your family if you have no debt. 100k is not a lot compared to people with 300k but it is enough that you might think twice about spending half your time at a free clinic or on international medical missions.

Also, yeah, LA kinda sucks but having done a rotation at UCLA I found that there is a little community right around the hospital that you can walk to and hang out with friends or do your shopping so you don't have to brave LA traffic all the time. And you could always go places on holidays or long weekends to get your fix of whatever kind of setting you desire (even if it means taking out a few thousand dollars worth of loans per year to fund it while still coming out way ahead financially)or to visit your friends (which honestly, it might be better if you aren't right by them or you might not make as many or as close friends at school since it will be easier to stay with the group you already know, plus if they aren't as busy as you it might tempt you to flake on studying or school related activities to spend time with them)

Agreed. Based on your goals, I think UCLA makes more sense. The campus might be in a nice area, but you're still in LA, and a short bus ride in any direction will take you to a place with people in need. Palo Alto, however, is a very rich, old neighborhood (and when I say old, I mean old people). Stanford is surrounded by rich cities (cupertino, san jose, mountain view, etc.), and east palo alto (the area that could use your help the most) isn't very accessible for a number of reasons.

Traffic in LA sucks, but you probably won't spend too much time on the 405 anyways. It's not like Stanford has the best roads either. 280, 101, and 85 are all jam-packed at peak hours. You're gonna get traffic no matter where you go.

That being said, 100k at Stanford isn't really 100k. As you mentioned, they have a lot of resources for you to cut that number in half (or even more so). I've even seen undergraduates sign up for "research assistantships" and cut their tuition by 25% for a year, with very little extra work considering the get published while they're at it. You can TA, do med scholars, intern somewhere nearby. SRI is pretty close (in Menlo Park), and there's a Merck like a block off campus. The list doesn't end there.

Clearly, I've spent a great deal of time at both schools so I can say with confidence that you have an awesome dilemma in front of you. You can't really go wrong here.