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Lawper

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Why not just make lecture attendance optional and allow students to watch videos/read powerpoints/do flashcards etc. at home? Just have mandatory tests at the end of the block.
 

IslandStyle808

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I was okay with the article until this part:

"In an active learning setting, you expect the students to learn about the equations before they get there. And when you get into the classroom setting, the students work in groups solving pharmacokinetic problems. Cases are presented where the patient gets a drug in a certain dose at a certain time, and you're looking at the action of that over time and the concentration of the drug in the blood."

Seriously? Your still making them come to class and waste their time. That picture looked so much like our mandatory flipped session, which I think are a large time sink. It made me cringe as soon as I saw the picture.
 
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pyrrion89

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Feel bad for these schools completely hijacked by overpaid PhD administrators who use the med students as lab rats for their experiments on higher education. Too bad they never have to experience what it's like to be at the butt-end of these mandatory exercises.
 

Syncrohnize

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A good example would be the teaching of what we would call pharmacokinetics — the science of drug delivery. So, how does a drug get to the target organ or targeted receptor?

Way to pick the one lecture in medical school that involves semi-abstract concepts. Everything else is not like this. You need books/lectures to develop some level of comfort with the material and then people can play whatever games they want with the material, take pictures, and then make it the front page of their website. The first TED talk where Dr. Khan discussed the flipped classroom discussed things like live-monitoring of students as they worked so teachers could efficiently cycle around the room. At the time, it was a novel concept and I remembered feeling butterflies at the end of the video as the camera panned to Bill Gates who was standing up and applauding. Since then frankly I've seen no one truly incorporate all the elements Khan discussed yet everyone is trying to cash in on the "flipped classroom" fad by branding their educational approach as such and it's getting really old, really fast. Show me something that works and if it truly works, I'll bet that once it has true success in one school, it'll spread like rapid fire and within two years it'll be the standard at most schools. Medical education is somewhat recalcitrant to change, but buzzwords and catch phrases like XBL, flipped classroom, etc. are just distractions used to further the cause of "overpaid PhD administrators who use medical students as their lab rats" as @pyrrion89 so eloquently puts it.
 
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Obnoxious Dad

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The purpose behind this Vermont nonsense and PBL is to prevent the use of the cheapest and most time efficient methods of studying during the preclinical years: streaming video, power points and canned outlines. The bozos who run medical education in this country want it to continue to be as expensive, exclusive, time consuming and aggravating as possible. If a medical school creates effective on line and printed resources for 150 students, it has created those materials for every person on the planet who is fluent in English. That's a nonstarter for the jamokes who want to maintain their empires.

The first two years of medical school should be as cheap as a community college but it won't happen because the medical school administrators, the AAMC and the AMA will never let it happen.
 

zero0

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Sooo... TBL? Not exactly revolutionary. Not necessarily right either, just different. I don't mind lectures so long as I'm watching them from my couch
 

mehc012

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My school still has lectures...but they're optional and not recorded. Some students go to them, some skip all of them. I've done a mix of both, and honestly did just as well either way. Lecture isn't where I do the majority of my learning, and I say that as someone who does learn better from lecture than average. Our curriculum is mostly based off of PBL (we also have some TBL, but everyone largely admits that it's a waste of time, and the administration has mostly phased it out except for Pharm).

Honestly, here where they've fully committed to it and support it in multiple ways (each group has a faculty or M4 facilitator, and it's clear what we're supposed to learn), it's not a time sink or a waste of time. It took us a while to learn how to learn in this setting, and so if most places throw it in intermittently to test it out, I'm not surprised if it's not super successful done that way. We have fewer lecture hours each week than we have PBL, and as I said many people skip all of those, with no recordings, and learn solely from the PBL setup with no issue.
 

atomi

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What a joke.

These snakeoil salesmen have infiltrated medicine, along with many other professionals schools, in one of the most corrupt schemes ever to line their pockets at the expense of young people who don't really have any other choice.
 
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Osteoth

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I honestly believe if the only required activities we had were the "doctoring" lectures and workshops we would be better off studying ourselves and having periodic "shelves" to test our knowledge compared to a national average.

I used to HATE medical school exams that tested either nothing or the specific minutia the lecturers work on while ignoring the big picture we actually care about.
 

username456789

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I always found that knowing everything made it easy. Learn it all, and you'll do fine whether it's minutiae or "big picture" being tested. (In reality it's always both).

That said, "flipped classroom" and similar garbage is ridiculous, and just an excuse to get some educators a couple publications at the expense of our future doctors.

My school had ~2 hours of optional lectures daily, with exceptionally good note set handouts. It was understood that the lectures were a 30,000 mile flyover review, and the work was yours to put in the time and learn. Because it was understood that no matter how much time he spends going to lectures, you still have to essentially spend the same amount of time is anyone else working with the material at home. We did have excellent learning support, so that if you had any questions or concerns about the material, our professors were always available to help.
 

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I always found that knowing everything made it easy. Learn it all, and you'll do fine whether it's minutiae or "big picture" being tested. (In reality it's always both).

That said, "flipped classroom" and similar garbage is ridiculous, and just an excuse to get some educators a couple publications at the expense of our future doctors.

My school had ~2 hours of optional lectures daily, with exceptionally good note set handouts. It was understood that the lectures were a 30,000 mile flyover review, and the work was yours to put in the time and learn. Because it was understood that no matter how much time he spends going to lectures, you still have to essentially spend the same amount of time is anyone else working with the material at home. We did have excellent learning support, so that if you had any questions or concerns about the material, our professors were always available to help.
My school at the time had a reputation for being really old school, but it really was all about the syllabus with my school. I didn't really care what else they did or didn't have us do as long as the class had a good syllabus to study from.

I'm a little terrified about the new curriculum at my school that they're rolling out for the new students... though they're finally transitioning to Pass/Fail, which would have been nice for someone like me who always seemed to score an 89 on every damn test...
 
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Goro

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It may come as a surprise to some of you that when it comes to medical school curriculum design, MDs rule the world. Look at the editorial board of, say Academic Medicine
Academic Medicine

And flipped curriculum = active learning. There is a data that works too. And better than passive learning, for sure. You adult learners are not mere vessels into which we pour our collective knowledge.

Since my school has moved to a flipped model, our exam results have been the highest ever, and it's starting to show up in Board results as well.

@Osteoth, I can fully sympathize with you at having to deal with course content that was the lecturer's research area. This is nothing new, either. A clinician colleague of mine who went to Stanford in the late 1970s went through exactly the same thing! These people have no business teaching.

But I'll counter your "testing on nothing at all" with the possibility that you were such a good student that it may have seemed like nothing, but you knew the material so well!

There's some other nonsense in the thread spouted by a loose cannon, so I can't respond to it.
 

softball2344

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My school at the time had a reputation for being really old school, but it really was all about the syllabus with my school. I didn't really care what else they did or didn't have us do as long as the class had a good syllabus to study from.

I'm a little terrified about the new curriculum at my school that they're rolling out for the new students... though they're finally transitioning to Pass/Fail, which would have been nice for someone like me who always seemed to score an 89 on every damn test...
I go to this school. So far it's been fine since it's very much a hybrid curriculum. This might change when things pick up and we get into the organ systems... We still get the syllabus so even though the lectures are a little skimped it's no big deal. The CBL requirement is basically just a time sink that (if anything) serves to reinforce the material.
 

WingedOx

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I go to this school. So far it's been fine since it's very much a hybrid curriculum. This might change when things pick up and we get into the organ systems... We still get the syllabus so even though the lectures are a little skimped it's no big deal. The CBL requirement is basically just a time sink that (if anything) serves to reinforce the material.
I'm a bit of a luddite, but I thought that the pre-clinical curriculum was one of the things the school did really well. What's her name who wrote the description of the new curriculum on the school's website (Dr. Rattner's replacement?) did NOT do a good job of selling it.

(you can dig through my 7k posts to find my rants about the clinical years though).
 
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IslandStyle808

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I'm a bit of a luddite, but I thought that the pre-clinical curriculum was one of the things the school did really well. What's her name who wrote the description of the new curriculum on the school's website (Dr. Rattner's replacement?) did NOT do a good job of selling it.

(you can dig through my 7k posts to find my rants about the clinical years though).
I think your confusing your likes with the amount of messages LOL. (I added one more like for good measure).
 

mmmcdowe

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I said goodbye to lectures about 1 week in. I said goodbye to PBL about 1 hour in.
 

softball2344

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I'm a bit of a luddite, but I thought that the pre-clinical curriculum was one of the things the school did really well. What's her name who wrote the description of the new curriculum on the school's website (Dr. Rattner's replacement?) did NOT do a good job of selling it.

(you can dig through my 7k posts to find my rants about the clinical years though).
I agree terrible - none of us had any idea of what we were really getting into until week 1. Idk how long ago you were in school but MANY schools have moved over to this type of curriculum. To the point where the old one was considered outdate -don't get me wrong though I would rather gone to an all-lecture school though if I had the chance. We actually have more lectures than I thought (in-person and online) which is certainly comforting.

(Unfortunately?) The clinical years are staying the same! I'm too lazy to go back so if you don't mind what was the major problems you encountered (besides being spread out)?
 
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