Veterans Affairs Pharmacist Job Question

[Amicable Angora]

Hello everyone, what is considered a good offer for a full time pharmacist position in the VA? Anyone have any thoughts on starting grade/step and/or other benefits or bonuses or lifestyle? Thank you.

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[Saiyo]

I think most people start at step-1, apparently some people get offered higher based on experience-but I don't think I've heard of anyone successfully negotiating for higher.
Lifestyle and benefits are really good, there's another recent thread where people are going into convoluted details about how good a federal job is..

 

[lord999]

You have to understand that your hiring supervisor is not the person who determines that. It's a committee called the Professional Standards Board.

12/1 for new grads/post residents unless the resident was trained within a federal system (VA, but DoD and HHS also accepted). 5 years outside experience, it is possible to argue to the PSB for a Step 3 or 4. MS automatically adds two steps. The most that a PSB can consider is 10 years outside and the highest step without the VISN PSB convening is Step 6. Unusual specialists (oncology at the BCOP level, pharmacoeconomics, informatics, and research at the local level, policy and public administration FACHE at the national level) are usually appointed at GS 13 rather than GS 12 initially. Local station (medical center) PSB's may go up to GS 13 but cannot appoint the Associate Chief if that is the second in command, VISNs usually consider all supervisory positions up to GS 14 and technical 13's and make the initial recommendation for GS-15 Chiefs or VISN Pharmacy Executives, and the National PSB considers all clinical and technical 14's (VISN technical and National technical regardless if they work for PBM or not), and all 15's (and for the few Chiefs of Pharmacy that are still 14, can exercise a veto vote on the VISN). There is an alternate one for CMOP, which does not consider any adjustments and hires strictly for GS-12/1 or GS-13/1 on position for new entries.

Do not take a promise for any step above 1 seriously unless you have prior federal service; the supervisor cannot promise that although they can argue for it. You are allowed to appeal your boarding up to the next level if you disagree, it sometimes is overridden but not usually. If you are a veteran and even if you service was not in the Medical Corps, there is a specific rule that is supposed to consider time in uniform for step placement that is global to all Title 38 healthcare position. Pharmacy's current handbook does not make where the placement should be explicitly in those cases, but an informal rule is that an additional step is given for every four years in the service over and above what the initial placement for previous service would have been.

In terms of shift hiring, that is actually positional. So, if you were hired to nights or evenings, your paperwork for committing hours in personnel action (SF-50) will reflect that. However, most pharmacists do not have that written into their personnel actions because it denies flexibility unless it is truly a differential shift. (So, depending on things, unless the SF-50 has a "no weekend" on the hours, you can be assigned to weekends even if you were promised otherwise).

 

[Amicable Angora]

Thank you two for your help, I appreciate it.

 

[deleted820760]

@Amicable Angora I hope you find an amazing job!

 

[mfdoom]

Lord999 obviously has the pro insight here. Anecdotally, the people I know who finished a PGY1 got placed at step 1. Those who finished PGY2 got step 2. They say to write as much as possible for your KSAs since they can't assume anything about your experience, but I feel like all new-ish grads get put at step 1 by default. Some VAs give a 1- or 2-step increase for a BPS specialty certification, though I think this may be based on budget and isn't guaranteed.

 

[lord999]

@lord999 VA has too much drama and subpar care, wouldn't you say? Should OP look into IHS?

Yes, I've addressed that elsewhere. I assume if they are going to work here especially now, that they already know the story well enough about the politics and the patient population such that it doesn't bother them. The rank and file clinical and operations pharmacists only have to deal with the supervision; it's highly unlikely that they have to deal with outside personnel except for sexual harassment issues.

 

[Saiyo]

They say to write as much as possible for your KSAs since they can't assume anything about your experience, but I feel like all new-ish grads get put at step 1 by default.

At first I did just that and my resume ended up looking like I copy-pasted the pharmacist job description! Plus, everybody knows what a hospital/ retail pharmacist does, so I don't think theres much point in embellishment. I've gotten no callbacks though so maybe I'm wrong haha.

 

[workingfarmer]

You have to understand that your hiring supervisor is not the person who determines that. It's a committee called the Professional Standards Board.

12/1 for new grads/post residents unless the resident was trained within a federal system (VA, but DoD and HHS also accepted). 5 years outside experience, it is possible to argue to the PSB for a Step 3 or 4. MS automatically adds two steps. The most that a PSB can consider is 10 years outside and the highest step without the VISN PSB convening is Step 6.

Does the MS (Masters degree?) still add two steps for a brand new GS-12 hire for 0660 series?

 

[ValeRx]

Does the MS (Masters degree?) still add two steps for a brand new GS-12 hire for 0660 series?

Barely anything adds steps these days. They brought our graduated residents in as GS-12 Step 1. BCPS doesn't even add steps anymore.

 

[samven582]

You have to understand that your hiring supervisor is not the person who determines that. It's a committee called the Professional Standards Board.

12/1 for new grads/post residents unless the resident was trained within a federal system (VA, but DoD and HHS also accepted). 5 years outside experience, it is possible to argue to the PSB for a Step 3 or 4. MS automatically adds two steps. The most that a PSB can consider is 10 years outside and the highest step without the VISN PSB convening is Step 6. Unusual specialists (oncology at the BCOP level, pharmacoeconomics, informatics, and research at the local level, policy and public administration FACHE at the national level) are usually appointed at GS 13 rather than GS 12 initially. Local station (medical center) PSB's may go up to GS 13 but cannot appoint the Associate Chief if that is the second in command, VISNs usually consider all supervisory positions up to GS 14 and technical 13's and make the initial recommendation for GS-15 Chiefs or VISN Pharmacy Executives, and the National PSB considers all clinical and technical 14's (VISN technical and National technical regardless if they work for PBM or not), and all 15's (and for the few Chiefs of Pharmacy that are still 14, can exercise a veto vote on the VISN). There is an alternate one for CMOP, which does not consider any adjustments and hires strictly for GS-12/1 or GS-13/1 on position for new entries.

Do not take a promise for any step above 1 seriously unless you have prior federal service; the supervisor cannot promise that although they can argue for it. You are allowed to appeal your boarding up to the next level if you disagree, it sometimes is overridden but not usually. If you are a veteran and even if you service was not in the Medical Corps, there is a specific rule that is supposed to consider time in uniform for step placement that is global to all Title 38 healthcare position. Pharmacy's current handbook does not make where the placement should be explicitly in those cases, but an informal rule is that an additional step is given for every four years in the service over and above what the initial placement for previous service would have been.

In terms of shift hiring, that is actually positional. So, if you were hired to nights or evenings, your paperwork for committing hours in personnel action (SF-50) will reflect that. However, most pharmacists do not have that written into their personnel actions because it denies flexibility unless it is truly a differential shift. (So, depending on things, unless the SF-50 has a "no weekend" on the hours, you can be assigned to weekends even if you were promised otherwise).

I got hired at GS12 step 8 at my facility

 

[lord999]

I got hired at GS12 step 8 at my facility

Yes, but beggars aren't choosers considering your facility. This is a place where veterans live in the dark, literally. Given what you know now, potentially you could demand a QSI.

To the OP, it's required that the MS is relevant and there is funding now, it is no longer automatic, unfortunately.

 

[Sparda29]

What does the VA use for it's software? Epic?

 

[RxAddyCt]

Barely anything adds steps these days. They brought our graduated residents in as GS-12 Step 1. BCPS doesn't even add steps anymore.

Really? I thought it adds two steps for your first certification? I have to ask my HR again to see if this is accurate. Might differ at various locations then.

 

[RxAddyCt]

What does the VA use for it's software? Epic?

Nope. We use Vista and CPRS. Vista is where you perform backdoor drug entry and order verification. CPRS is everything else- reading provider notes, looking up labs, etc. In the next couple of years we're going to be switching to Cerner. Though I like Epic a lot better.

 

[samven582]

Nope. We use Vista and CPRS. Vista is where you perform backdoor drug entry and order verification. CPRS is everything else- reading provider notes, looking up labs, etc. In the next couple of years we're going to be switching to Cerner. Though I like Epic a lot better.

Me too! I wish the government chose Epic! @lord999 what's the reason the VA chose Cerner? DoD?

 

[samven582]

Yes, but beggars aren't choosers considering your facility. This is a place where veterans live in the dark, literally. Given what you know now, potentially you could demand a QSI.

To the OP, it's required that the MS is relevant and there is funding now, it is no longer automatic, unfortunately.

How do I ask for that? Is this an HR thing?

 

[Sparda29]

Nope. We use Vista and CPRS. Vista is where you perform backdoor drug entry and order verification. CPRS is everything else- reading provider notes, looking up labs, etc. In the next couple of years we're going to be switching to Cerner. Though I like Epic a lot better.

Cerner, ew.

 

[lord999]

Me too! I wish the government chose Epic! @lord999 what's the reason the VA chose Cerner? DoD?

It's a long story but we fired all their executives Over two years and turned Corner into a defense contractor.

 

[workingfarmer]

Really? I thought it adds two steps for your first certification? I have to ask my HR again to see if this is accurate. Might differ at various locations then.

I was under the same impression about BCPS and yes MS I heard most the time does mot qualify.....so are steps equivalent to time in service?

 

[bacillus1]

Gotta add to this thread: for clinical specialists, many VAs will hire you as a GS13, as long as the announcement is posted as such. Seems like you can negotiate your step based on experience a bit, depending on the VA, but you cannot negotiate grade. For samven, VA pay in your area is abysmal...probably why people can negotiate a bit. You guys should get a salary survey, if you haven't yet.

 

[ValeRx]

I was under the same impression about BCPS and yes MS I heard most the time does mot qualify.....so are steps equivalent to time in service?

Nope, no step increase for BCPS. At least, not while you're already a VA employee and you earn that certification. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it, myself included. There's no financial incentive, they don't reimburse, and you get no raise out of it. It just costs you more money every year to keep it going for no return whatsoever.

 

[bacillus1]

Nope, no step increase for BCPS. At least, not while you're already a VA employee and you earn that certification. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it, myself included. There's no financial incentive, they don't reimburse, and you get no raise out of it. It just costs you more money every year to keep it going for no return whatsoever.

Actually depends on the VA. Many do SAA for BCPS (2 steps) while you are already a VA employee, but will not consider it for step increase as a new hire.

 

[rxdawg21]

Nope, no step increase for BCPS. At least, not while you're already a VA employee and you earn that certification. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it, myself included. There's no financial incentive, they don't reimburse, and you get no raise out of it. It just costs you more money every year to keep it going for no return whatsoever.

We get 2 steps for bcps first time, one for each additional. Think 5 max steps? We get one for publication. We get 1 for cde or bc adm. however, va in our visn don’t that are in more desirable locations.

This may not last forever as the head of the local va is the final person to sign off. But can confirm it is still happening here

 

[workingfarmer]

Nope, no step increase for BCPS. At least, not while you're already a VA employee and you earn that certification. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it, myself included. There's no financial incentive, they don't reimburse, and you get no raise out of it. It just costs you more money every year to keep it going for no return whatsoever.

And why would a GS12 step 6-8 accept a position as GS 13 step 2-3 when the GS step 12 pay is greater than the latter?

 

[Versed06]

And why would a GS12 step 6-8 accept a position as GS 13 step 2-3 when the GS step 12 pay is greater than the latter?

If you're a GS 12 Step 6-8, you SHOULD be transitioning to a GS 13 Step 5 at least based on your salary, as your promotion means to go from your GS 12 salary to the GS 13 salary that's just above your current GS 12 salary plus 2 steps within the GS 13 grade (roughly $5,000 more annually). The obvious perk of the GS 13 position is better working hours (M-F 8 to 4:30, no weekends, off all federal holidays) but of course you're sacrificing the extra money from losing shift differential. It's worth it it if you're trying to obtain a certain clinical/managerial position toward the end of your career, you just have to hope that the timing/circumstances allows you to reach that benchmark sooner than later, if at all. True story: A former coworker of mine went from a GS 12 to a GS 14 Associate Chief within 4 years and will likely be a GS 15 Chief in a matter of weeks.

 

[lord999]

If you're a GS 12 Step 6-8, you SHOULD be transitioning to a GS 13 Step 5 at least based on your salary, as your promotion means to go from your GS 12 salary to the GS 13 salary that's just above your current GS 12 salary plus 2 steps within the GS 13 grade (roughly $5,000 more annually). The obvious perk of the GS 13 position is better working hours (M-F 8 to 4:30, no weekends, off all federal holidays) but of course you're sacrificing the extra money from losing shift differential. It's worth it it if you're trying to obtain a certain clinical/managerial position toward the end of your career, you just have to hope that the timing/circumstances allows you to reach that benchmark sooner than later, if at all. True story: A former coworker of mine went from a GS 12 to a GS 14 Associate Chief within 4 years and will likely be a GS 15 Chief in a matter of weeks.

And depending on her/his/other leadership, labor relations, and the front office, could find herself/himself/pronoun of choice out of a job or in AIB hell in a year. Most 15's last less than three years. Of all the 15's that have passed 7 years, virtually none (I think it's like 3 out of 36) that have not faced at least one Board or Inquiry with them as defendant.

 

[samven582]

And depending on her/his/other leadership, labor relations, and the front office, could find herself/himself/pronoun of choice out of a job or in AIB hell in a year. Most 15's last less than three years. Of all the 15's that have passed 7 years, virtually none (I think it's like 3 out of 36) that have not faced at least one Board or Inquiry with them as defendant.

I still have no clue how my chief and associated chief are still employed at my station.

 

[lord999]

I still have no clue how my chief and associated chief are still employed at my station.

I do, given how often your station is in the news, they are far down the problem list. If you are going to be an incompetent, corrupt supervisor, do it at a place where you literally can't be inside certain buildings for health reasons as front office has bigger problems than labor relations.

 

[samven582]

I do, given how often your station is in the news, they are far down the problem list. If you are going to be an incompetent, corrupt supervisor, do it at a place where you literally can't be inside certain buildings for health reasons as front office has bigger problems than labor relations.

Rumor has it they just got a raise

 

[Versed06]

I still have no clue how my chief and associated chief are still employed at my station.

At a certain station I know of, one Associate Chief has caused their inpatient supervisors to leave their roles one after another due to poor management skills (like 6+ over the last 8 years). However, from what I've been told, the Chief isn't measured by inpatient pharmacy metrics (outpatient only), so there's no incentive for him/her/upper manager to intervene. I've doubted the sincerity behind the VA inpatient pharmacy's intended purpose to provide the best pharmaceutical care for hospitalized Veterans for years now (as, from personal observation, it's difficult to achieve without consistent, mindful leadership), and I've instead accepted that it will be sacrificed in a heartbeat to avoid confrontation/paperwork with certain problematic supervisors (i.e. prior military) as long as upper management gets their bonuses and everything stays afloat. I also think it's safe to assume that most if not all VA inpatient pharmacy service needs will be sidelined/much less prioritized in favor of outpatient pharmacy needs as outpatient is customer-service driven and produces the financial benefit, so don't expect a lot of support/communication/accountability from your leaders if you're an inpatient pharmacist.

 

[lord999]

At a certain station I know of, one Associate Chief has caused their inpatient supervisors to leave their roles one after another due to poor management skills (like 6+ over the last 8 years). However, from what I've been told, the Chief isn't measured by inpatient pharmacy metrics (outpatient only), so there's no incentive for him/her/upper manager to intervene. I've doubted the sincerity behind the VA inpatient pharmacy's intended purpose to provide the best pharmaceutical care for hospitalized Veterans for years now (as, from personal observation, it's difficult to achieve without consistent, mindful leadership), and I've instead accepted that it will be sacrificed in a heartbeat to avoid confrontation/paperwork with certain problematic supervisors (i.e. prior military) as long as upper management gets their bonuses and everything stays afloat. I also think it's safe to assume that most if not all VA inpatient pharmacy service needs will be sidelined/much less prioritized in favor of outpatient pharmacy needs as outpatient is customer-service driven and produces the financial benefit, so don't expect a lot of support/communication/accountability from your leaders if you're an inpatient pharmacist.

Depends on size of station and front office priorities. I can tell you one West Coast Northern Cal inpatient pharmacy has always been heavily focused on due to prominence and is one that I'd have no hesitation getting care from (too bad their outstanding Associate Chief untimely dropped dead from an MI last year), and then there is GLA and Portland, where I'm not sure I've ever known a time when they weren't screwups.

West Coast does practice very differently than East Coast and the Midwest. When you've seen one VA, you've seen one VA. Although gross incompetence and bureaucratic games is a universal here.

 

[samven582]

At a certain station I know of, one Associate Chief has caused their inpatient supervisors to leave their roles one after another due to poor management skills (like 6+ over the last 8 years). However, from what I've been told, the Chief isn't measured by inpatient pharmacy metrics (outpatient only), so there's no incentive for him/her/upper manager to intervene. I've doubted the sincerity behind the VA inpatient pharmacy's intended purpose to provide the best pharmaceutical care for hospitalized Veterans for years now (as, from personal observation, it's difficult to achieve without consistent, mindful leadership), and I've instead accepted that it will be sacrificed in a heartbeat to avoid confrontation/paperwork with certain problematic supervisors (i.e. prior military) as long as upper management gets their bonuses and everything stays afloat. I also think it's safe to assume that most if not all VA inpatient pharmacy service needs will be sidelined/much less prioritized in favor of outpatient pharmacy needs as outpatient is customer-service driven and produces the financial benefit, so don't expect a lot of support/communication/accountability from your leaders if you're an inpatient pharmacist.

Honestly this make perfect sense. Where do you find these metrics?

 

[lord999]

VSSC and OPES. The pharmacy budgetary are on the MCA site.

 

[workingfarmer]

Rumor has it they just got a raise

How would you even go about applying to another VA position without your current supervisor not knowing, that probably plays a big role when looking for new positions?

 

[bacillus1]

How would you even go about applying to another VA position without your current supervisor not knowing, that probably plays a big role when looking for new positions?

I did not tell my supervisor that I am applying for jobs. None of my references were my supervisor. However, now that I got a (tentative) offer, I told him so he can anticipate VetPro paperwork that he may have to deal with.

 

[lord999]

How would you even go about applying to another VA position without your current supervisor not knowing, that probably plays a big role when looking for new positions?

Your supervisor does not know unless they have an in with the HR staff. And unless you are applying for a position locally, the HR staff only know that your jacket is active rather than what or where until you are selected and they would have to be purposefully looking (as in, their read is logged as opposed to the passive reports). If you apply locally though, everyone knows. If you ever make it to Central Office, it's a big problem as HRMACS services all VACO/VHACO/OIG appointments.

 

[pinkpharmd]

If you're a GS 12 Step 6-8, you SHOULD be transitioning to a GS 13 Step 5 at least based on your salary, as your promotion means to go from your GS 12 salary to the GS 13 salary that's just above your current GS 12 salary plus 2 steps within the GS 13 grade (roughly $5,000 more annually). The obvious perk of the GS 13 position is better working hours (M-F 8 to 4:30, no weekends, off all federal holidays) but of course you're sacrificing the extra money from losing shift differential. It's worth it it if you're trying to obtain a certain clinical/managerial position toward the end of your career, you just have to hope that the timing/circumstances allows you to reach that benchmark sooner than later, if at all. True story: A former coworker of mine went from a GS 12 to a GS 14 Associate Chief within 4 years and will likely be a GS 15 Chief in a matter of weeks.

Would appreciate your input if you can provide any information. Let's say I am a GS 12/10 and the salary is 130K. I am offered a position to be GS 13 but the GS 13/10 salary is 120K. Therefore I was given an answer by HR that because I am going from 12 to 13 that is a promotion and they decided to see what GS12/8 at my current VA is and even that number was around GS 13/9 at the new location and of course, they could not hire me as a GS 13/9 because he said the other people are nowhere near a GS13/9. I told the HR person that is not my problem if anything I should be offered a GS13/10 because I am taking a 10K pay cut but then he said the cost of living is less. I later said well I have an expensive lifestyle! They offered me a GS 13/6 and the pay cut made no sense to me. In the end, I declined the position, I am not a fan of pain management with a pay cut! Only in the VA! What are my rights in this situation? I had no idea they would offer me the job, I guess these PMOP positions are not desirable. I am not trying to get a GS 13 to move up the ladder. I was not able to negotiate a GS13/10 which would have been a pay cut but acceptable to me. Thank you

 

[lord999]

Would appreciate your input if you can provide any information. Let's say I am a GS 12/10 and the salary is 130K. I am offered a position to be GS 13 but the GS 13/10 salary is 120K. Therefore I was given an answer by HR that because I am going from 12 to 13 that is a promotion and they decided to see what GS12/8 at my current VA is and even that number was around GS 13/9 at the new location and of course, they could not hire me as a GS 13/9 because he said the other people are nowhere near a GS13/9. I told the HR person that is not my problem if anything I should be offered a GS13/10 because I am taking a 10K pay cut but then he said the cost of living is less. I later said well I have an expensive lifestyle! They offered me a GS 13/6 and the pay cut made no sense to me. In the end, I declined the position, I am not a fan of pain management with a pay cut! Only in the VA! What are my rights in this situation? I had no idea they would offer me the job, I guess these PMOP positions are not desirable. I am not trying to get a GS 13 to move up the ladder. I was not able to negotiate a GS13/10 which would have been a pay cut but acceptable to me. Thank you

That's ridiculous and immediately appealable.

Under the EASY rules, you were supposed to be 2 step and promote. As you are taking a paycut, it's supposed to be ceiling.

Promotions

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

 

[pharmey]

Learned a lot from this thread. Are there any other VAs out there that pay OT as straight time and not time and a half?

 

[workingfarmer]

Learned a lot from this thread. Are there any other VAs out there that pay OT as straight time and not time and a half?

for residents might be different. but for regular employees cannot go against OPM regs for OT unless it's blatant disregard/mistake

 

[lord999]

for residents might be different. but for regular employees cannot go against OPM regs for OT unless it's blatant disregard/mistake

Actually, mandatory overtime DOES NOT require Premium pay as a Hybrid 38 matter. A memo has to be reauthorized every year for premium pay for OT. Management used to have pharmacists bid for OT, but lost when locum had to be hired.

 

[workingfarmer]

Actually, mandatory overtime DOES NOT require Premium pay as a Hybrid 38 matter. A memo has to be reauthorized every year for premium pay for OT. Management used to have pharmacists bid for OT, but lost when locum had to be hired.

Interesting, not sure if I would work for any specific agencies that are unable to obtain OT pay for their folks

 

[lord999]

Interesting, not sure if I would work for any specific agencies that are unable to obtain OT pay for their folks

Ok, you should know that none of them did before 0660 got put on the OPM scarcity list. There’s enough pharmacists where the memo may not be renewed. Retention pay has almost completely ended (I got my last legacy pharmacist retention last year).

 

[workingfarmer]

Ok, you should know that none of them did before 0660 got put on the OPM scarcity list. There’s enough pharmacists where the memo may not be renewed. Retention pay has almost completely ended (I got my last legacy pharmacist retention last year).

never heard that VHA had retention pay for 0660; so how do hospitals manage staffing weekends for 0660's without OT memo?

 

[lord999]

never heard that VHA had retention pay for 0660; so how do hospitals manage staffing weekends for 0660's without OT memo?

By forced assignment if nothing else. There used to be a thing with unequal assignment to weekends to "encourage" quitting. Unless you have one of the old positions that is no-weekend (yes, they still exist for those hired before 2007 or 2008), you can work every weekend on forced assignment with only the Title 5 differential on top. I think all 0660 positions is anytime after that time period. Nurses also had a no-weekend position for quite a number of years, but virtually all of them converted (for a cash bonus) to the nurses schedule. Many of the 0660 who had the preferential scheduling were bought out as well (I definitely took the payment.)