Veterinary Research

[firstborn]

I was just wondering if it would hurt at all to do research in a lab where the PI is a veterinarian (also has a PhD in immunology). The research is in oncology, specifically the "mechanisms of neoplastic transformation and tumor progression." Common sense tells me that it shouldn't matter what kind of research, but I was just curious to see what any of you who have possible gone through this think.

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[VTBuc]

I did research on genetically modified chickens and received nothing but positive feedback regarding it. I think the fact that your project is on something as relevant as cancer biology will make it even more of a positive.

 

[schrizto]

Well, let me ask you this: If she only had that PhD, would you be asking this question? It sounds like basic science research not so much veterinary research.

 

[Morsetlis]

Research is research. Your ability to discuss the research and your pub/pres/poster will matter more than the actual field.

 

[firstborn]

Sounds good, thanks everyone!

 

[surftheiop]

I was just wondering if it would hurt at all to do research in a lab where the PI is a veterinarian (also has a PhD in immunology). The research is in oncology, specifically the "mechanisms of neoplastic transformation and tumor progression." Common sense tells me that it shouldn't matter what kind of research, but I was just curious to see what any of you who have possible gone through this think.

I think DVM's are arguably just as important to human health research as MD's are. They develop animal models for human diseases which allows for a huge amount of research to be done that could never be done on humans.

Several DVM's gave talks to my BioMed engineering class and all of them were working on human diseases with animal models.

 

[metallica81788]

Sounds like good research to me.

Sort of unrelated, did you know that applying pre-vet students can list veterinary research experience as veterinary clinical experience? That would be the AMCAS equivalent of taking your research hours and listing those under research and shadowing.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Sounds like good research to me.

Sort of unrelated, did you know that applying pre-vet students can list veterinary research experience as veterinary clinical experience? That would be the AMCAS equivalent of taking your research hours and listing those under research and shadowing.

You can list it as clinical experience if you want, but you can't count the hours twice or anything. It's just a choice of which category to put it in (vet experience vs animal experience).

 

[Morsetlis]

I think DVM's are arguably just as important to human health research as MD's are. They develop animal models for human diseases which allows for a huge amount of research to be done that could never be done on humans.

Several DVM's gave talks to my BioMed engineering class and all of them were working on human diseases with animal models.

I worked on a chimeric mouse model for hepatitis under an MD/PhD. You don't need a DVM to work with animal models (although, granted, the research facility must have a DVM supervising).

 

[eringobraugh]

Sounds like good research to me.

Sort of unrelated, did you know that applying pre-vet students can list veterinary research experience as veterinary clinical experience? That would be the AMCAS equivalent of taking your research hours and listing those under research and shadowing.

Yes, it's the AMCAS equivalent but technically we can only list it as veterinary research experience if we are working under the supervision of an actual vet (not just a phD) which would practice the same techniques in a clinical setting. Since, obviously they work with animals in both situations whereas "animal experience" can be anything that has to do with animals. It's not really the same way things work in the medical world.

And Tiktaalik, I'm glad I'm not the only prevet lurking on the pre allo forum!

 

[metallica81788]

You can list it as clinical experience if you want, but you can't count the hours twice or anything. It's just a choice of which category to put it in (vet experience vs animal experience).

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

It seemed a little sketchy to me.

 

[surftheiop]

I worked on a chimeric mouse model for hepatitis under an MD/PhD. You don't need a DVM to work with animal models (although, granted, the research facility must have a DVM supervising).

But in several cases the animal models are first invented by a DVM.

Then everyone else can go use them

 

[Morsetlis]

Um... not in my case! But if you say so.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

It seemed a little sketchy to me.

yeah... only sketchy if there was such a thing as a section reserved for "veterinary clinical" experience. The only 3 sections for experience on the VMCAS are "veterinary experience," "animal experience," and "non-animal related experience" if I remember correctly.

Vet experience is any experience involving animals that is supervised by a health professional (MD, PhD, or DVM/VMD... though some things don't seem to count). My research under an MD PI involving a bunch of mouse models = vet experience. Cause I mean... how much of a difference is there between mouse models of a human tumor vs. dog tumor when you're doing basic science?

A lot, if not most, of successful applicants have thousands of hours of experience spanning various aspects of the field. Plus, someone who only has research experience will not have too great a chance at vet school anyway... I was asked why not go for a PhD after talking about my research, even though I have 3000+ hours of animal and "real" clinical veterinary experience.

hehe, only half kidding: what's more sketchy to me is that standing in the front desk of a hospital chatting with other pre-meds on a friday night = clinical experience. volunteer experience maybe (though i'm not sure exactly how helpful those people are), ... but clinical experience???

 

[Minnerbelle]

But in several cases the animal models are first invented by a DVM.

Then everyone else can go use them

I think most PhD or MD headed labs that use animal models generally design their own (without a DVM)... and I would bet that more transgenic/knockout mouse strains are designed by PhDs than DVMs. But it's true that the first transgenic mouse was developed at Penn's vet school.

 

[eringobraugh]

Yes, the lab I work in now has published two mouse orthotopic cancer models and we are currently working on a third. My PI is an MD/PhD not a DVM

 

[metallica81788]

yeah... only sketchy if there was such a thing as a section reserved for "veterinary clinical" experience. The only 3 sections for experience on the VMCAS are "veterinary experience," "animal experience," and "non-animal related experience" if I remember correctly.

Vet experience is any experience involving animals that is supervised by a health professional (MD, PhD, or DVM/VMD... though some things don't seem to count). My research under an MD PI involving a bunch of mouse models = vet experience. Cause I mean... how much of a difference is there between mouse models of a human tumor vs. dog tumor when you're doing basic science?

A lot, if not most, of successful applicants have thousands of hours of experience spanning various aspects of the field. Plus, someone who only has research experience will not have too great a chance at vet school anyway... I was asked why not go for a PhD after talking about my research, even though I have 3000+ hours of animal and "real" clinical veterinary experience.

hehe, only half kidding: what's more sketchy to me is that standing in the front desk of a hospital chatting with other pre-meds on a friday night = clinical experience. volunteer experience maybe (though i'm not sure exactly how helpful those people are), ... but clinical experience???

Definitely agree here. That's why I made sure my ER experience would actually be worthy of being called clinical experience. Anybody that lists an activity like that as 'clinical experience' is lying.

As long as the 'veterinary experience' section can discriminate between research and actual time with vets in a clinic/hospital setting, then it's legit.

My intention of not sidetracking this thread has failed.

 

[surftheiop]

I think most PhD or MD headed labs that use animal models generally design their own (without a DVM)... and I would bet that more transgenic/knockout mouse strains are designed by PhDs than DVMs. But it's true that the first transgenic mouse was developed at Penn's vet school.

Definitely true, given the fact that there are probably at least 500X as many PhD's and MD's in the world!

I was just pointing out for the OP that DVM's do plenty or research that is relevant to human heath, so that the person's degree shouldn't dissuade him from joining the lab.

I for one was surprised this semester when about 5 or 6 researchers from the Vet school came to my biomedical engineering class and gave talks about research related to human diseases , before then I had no idea that academic DVM's did so much human related research.

 

[Tiktaalik]

(Since we've already basically come to the conclusion that the research is just fine.)

Here's a question I thought of when reflecting on this thread earlier today - if a premed got involved in research under an MD/PhD that was part clinical/part research (say a clinical trial of a new drug, for example), how would that person list it on their application?

Part of the reason prevets don't distinguish between research experience with animals and clinical experience with animals is because (as Minnerbelle pointed out) when we do research on animals, we're doing research on patients. Even though I'm sure it doesn't come up often, I'm curious how a similar situation would be expressed on the AMCAS. I'm not premed and not planning on switching after getting into vet school, (yay!) but if someone could indulge my curiosity, I'd be grateful.

eringobraugh, I kinda pop in and out to check on things. Since I want to do comparative med research (and be one of those DVM/PhDs everyone here's talking about!), I like to keep up on what's going on in the world of human medicine

Edit: @ metallica: Don't worry, we had to itemize and describe every activity that contributed to our hours in each category, so 500 hours at the front desk would have to be listed as "500 hours, responsibilities included slacking off at the front desk and not much else"