Visiting rotations without core completed

[GraceEuphoria]

I was hoping that some of the 3rd and 4th year students could chime in on this one, since nothing seems to pop up when I search. This will only apply for those students who attend a school where you set up your own away rotations, or for those who at least have experience setting up electives.

Did any of you complete your core rotations during the second part of your 3rd year? And if so, did you find that a lot of hospitals wouldn't allow you to rotate with them without that core completed? I know that is the case with UTKnoxville and I was just wondering how much of an issue that is really going to be when I start setting up rotations for this fall. Thanks

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[DocEspana]

Generally speaking, if its a core (IM, Peds, Surgery, OB/Gyn) you can't get an elective til you've done the core. This is true both of any subspecialty in the field (e.g. endocrinology or urology) or just the base field itself since you havent done the core at your affiliate yet. A handful of more well known hospitals will require you to have ever core finished before you can apply for electives.

Of course there are exceptions and such.... but this is why, generally, you see electives almost exclusively being done in the 4th year for most schools since its hard to reliably get them in 3rd year with the requirements various hospitals have. What I've seen (and n=only the people I know personally) is that 3rd year students tend to do electives in radiology, pathology, OMM/NMM or EM since they are all sort of "outside" of the core rotations. The exceptions to this tend to be people from my school who do a lot of derm electives in 3rd year because there is a derm residency affiliated with us and we can literally just ask the DME to take us into the Dermatologist's program, since they are one and the same person.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Yikes, ok....see I was hoping to use the block to explore other subspecialties of the primary care specialties I'm interested in....ex. neonatology after a peds residency.

Well, I guess scheduling PM&R might not be an issue, and that's one I was thinking of doing. And perhaps my thought of doing medical genetics won't be ruined then either? Also, neurology was on the list....should be feasible right? But it will probably ruin my shot of doing an MFM rotation....

I guess the only comfort in this situation is that of the 5 we get to choose on our own for our 3rd year, 3 of them are technically done by physicians on a list set up through the school (1 medicine, 1 surgery, 1 "other" which can be any med, surg or the ROAD). This would indicate that there's a strong chance they'll take me without asking too many questions.

This should be fun lol

Thanks for the reply! If anyone else has anymore info, that would helpful! I want to use the time effectively and see things I might be interested in....I was planning to see the RAD of the ROAD during 4th year when I can split month electives into 2 2wk sections since I'm not interested in them, but want the exposure.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Yikes, ok....see I was hoping to use the block to explore other subspecialties of the primary care specialties I'm interested in....ex. neonatology after a peds residency.

Well, I guess scheduling PM&R might not be an issue, and that's one I was thinking of doing. And perhaps my thought of doing medical genetics won't be ruined then either? Also, neurology was on the list....should be feasible right? But it will probably ruin my shot of doing an MFM rotation....

I guess the only comfort in this situation is that of the 5 we get to choose on our own for our 3rd year, 3 of them are technically done by physicians on a list set up through the school (1 medicine, 1 surgery, 1 "other" which can be any med, surg or the ROAD). This would indicate that there's a strong chance they'll take me without asking too many questions.

This should be fun lol

Thanks for the reply! If anyone else has anymore info, that would helpful! I want to use the time effectively and see things I might be interested in....I was planning to see the RAD of the ROAD during 4th year when I can split month electives into 2 2wk sections since I'm not interested in them, but want the exposure.

IMHO, 3rd year is for honing your clinical skills.... Nobody is going to teach you how to do a thorough physical exam or how to write a decent progress note/H&P or how to present in rounds your 4th yr.... So you should focus on that your 3rd yr... You shouldn't worry about exposure which should be reserved for 4th year. You get enough exposure to different things during your cores (e.g. anesthesia in surgery or medicine subspecialties in medicine core, etc.) to have some ideas about how things operate...

As far as 3rd yr electives, Rads and Path are great...

Also DocEspana wrote a great review of how things work... I 2nd everything s/he said except that EM is usually limited to 4th yr students at most academic places... Also, most university programs, limit electives/away rotations to 4th yr students after they've completed their cores and you certainly wouldn't want to do a subspecialty rotation (e.g. neonatology) before doing the actual cores (Peds and Ob in this case) if you want any meaningful learning experience out of it.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

IMHO, 3rd year is for honing your clinical skills.... Nobody is going to teach you how to do a thorough physical exam or how to write a decent progress note/H&P or how to present in rounds your 4th yr.... So you should focus on that your 3rd yr... You shouldn't worry about exposure which should be reserved for 4th year. You get enough exposure to different things during your cores (e.g. anesthesia in surgery or medicine subspecialties in medicine core, etc.) to have some ideas about how things operate...

As far as 3rd yr electives, Rads and Path are great...

Also DocEspana wrote a great review of how things work... I 2nd everything s/he said except that EM is usually limited to 4th yr students at most academic places... Also, most university programs, limit electives/away rotations to 4th yr students after they've completed their cores and you certainly wouldn't want to do a subspecialty rotation (e.g. neonatology) before doing the actual cores (Peds and Ob in this case) if you want any meaningful learning experience out of it.

Thanks for the feedback!
I def agree on saving my neonate for 4th year....and our EM is set for our 4th year as well by default. I wish I could say that I'd be content spending my electives doing rads, path, etc but the idea of doing so honestly bores me to tears lol. Like I said, I'd rather do those on split electives during 4th year if I can find a place that will allow me to do so (I know those aren't that common).

The "exposure" you're referencing....do you mean to fields of interest? I guess I'm wondering then....if you might want to pursue one of the areas I've listed (ex. PM&R, neuro, medical genetics...), then you'd have to rotate through them during your elective time of 3rd right since application process for residencies starts in early fall....right?

Also, do only 4th year students really present on rounds?? I was under the impression that I'd be starting that 3rd year....mind you, our core rotates through mostly community hospitals, so it may be different for us than for those who rotate through traditional academic settings.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Thanks for the feedback!
I def agree on saving my neonate for 4th year....and our EM is set for our 4th year as well by default. I wish I could say that I'd be content spending my electives doing rads, path, etc but the idea of doing so honestly bores me to tears lol. Like I said, I'd rather do those on split electives during 4th year if I can find a place that will allow me to do so (I know those aren't that common).

The "exposure" you're referencing....do you mean to fields of interest? I guess I'm wondering then....if you might want to pursue one of the areas I've listed (ex. PM&R, neuro, medical genetics...), then you'd have to rotate through them during your elective time of 3rd right since application process for residencies starts in early fall....right?

Also, do only 4th year students really present on rounds?? I was under the impression that I'd be starting that 3rd year....mind you, our core rotates through mostly community hospitals, so it may be different for us than for those who rotate through traditional academic settings.

Rads is a great 3rd yr rotation... IMO it should be a 2 wk core to teach you how to formally read basic imaging (don't tell me you learned it in pre-clinicals, b/c you didn't).... A good path rotation will also be useful....

The first half of your 4th yr is reserved for exposure to the fields of interest while the second half should be reserved for exposure to things that you will not get exposed to as a resident/physician (e.g. ENT going into Psych).

I'm not sure how much elective time you have your 3rd yr, but most academic places won't take you as a third year. PM&R and Neuro can be done as an advanced third yr (second half of 3rd yr AFTER IM), if you can find someone to take you. Also, you'll get exposure to Neuro in IM (hopefully).

Third year finishes in early summer for most schools, giving you 2-3 months to get in some 4th yr rotations in fields of interest before the start of the application cycle (at least for the ACGME side)...

That's not what I said... I said you have to learn to present during 3rd yr (i.e. by presenting and getting corrected by residents/attendings) so you will be prepared during your 4th yr as nobody will take time to teach you that then.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I essentially repeated a lot of my cores except IM and gen surg. In their place I did anesthesia and ENT.

I felt it helped when it came time to do my cores. Gen surg and IM were initially a struggle but I'm a relatively fast learner and picked things up kinda quickly.

I was well-prepped for M4 year, at least.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Rads is a great 3rd yr rotation... IMO it should be a 2 wk core to teach you how to formally read basic imaging (don't tell me you learned it in pre-clinicals, b/c you didn't).... A good path rotation will also be useful....

The first half of your 4th yr is reserved for exposure to the fields of interest while the second half should be reserved for exposure to things that you will not get exposed to as a resident/physician (e.g. ENT going into Psych).

I'm not sure how much elective time you have your 3rd yr, but most academic places won't take you as a third year. PM&R and Neuro can be done as an advanced third yr (second half of 3rd yr AFTER IM), if you can find someone to take you. Also, you'll get exposure to Neuro in IM (hopefully).

Third year finishes in early summer for most schools, giving you 2-3 months to get in some 4th yr rotations in fields of interest before the start of the application cycle (at least for the ACGME side)...

That's not what I said... I said you have to learn to present during 3rd yr (i.e. by presenting and getting corrected by residents/attendings) so you will be prepared during your 4th yr as nobody will take time to teach you that then.

3rd year we have 5 blocks to fill (in my description in the one of the previous posts, I break it down as to how it's done; only two of those are technically electives, though all five are pretty much open to whatever area of interest you want....who you do the rotation with is guided on three of them though). For the students like myself who complete our cores starting in January, SOMEONE is taking them during the fall lol. There are 3 classes ahead of me who have done it, so I will just have to ask them. Our 4th year has 4 required months that are scattered, based on a "lottery" of sorts. So I am unsure at this point what free months I'll have and will cross that bridge when I get closer I suppose

As for the rads/path thing....I definitely do want to do some of that....just not during my few blocks that I have to explore specialty options. And this is a total side note and tangent: while I would never claim to have learned all the basic imaging reading skills in pre-clinicals, you're making me curious as to what most students get in that area. We get quite a bit mixed in with anatomy and our patient skills classes....plus lectures devoted entirely to imaging get sprinkled in with each of our systems usually. There are images on exams usually and we do have to pass a CXR exam as well. Anywho, just curious on what you all get. It's always interesting to see the differences in programs.

 

[scotchtapetest]

3rd year we have 5 blocks to fill (in my description in the one of the previous posts, I break it down as to how it's done; only two of those are technically electives, though all five are pretty much open to whatever area of interest you want....who you do the rotation with is guided on three of them though). For the students like myself who complete our cores starting in January, SOMEONE is taking them during the fall lol. There are 3 classes ahead of me who have done it, so I will just have to ask them. Our 4th year has 4 required months that are scattered, based on a "lottery" of sorts. So I am unsure at this point what free months I'll have and will cross that bridge when I get closer I suppose

As for the rads/path thing....I definitely do want to do some of that....just not during my few blocks that I have to explore specialty options. And this is a total side note and tangent: while I would never claim to have learned all the basic imaging reading skills in pre-clinicals, you're making me curious as to what most students get in that area. We get quite a bit mixed in with anatomy and our patient skills classes....plus lectures devoted entirely to imaging get sprinkled in with each of our systems usually. There are images on exams usually and we do have to pass a CXR exam as well. Anywho, just curious on what you all get. It's always interesting to see the differences in programs.

We get pretty much the same; But sometimes when talking to SOME pre-clinical students, they think having a lecture on CXR makes them an expert in radiology and now they can skip residency and become board eligible for radiology; so it is important to preempt such responses (wasn't directly targeted at you)!

Your clerkship schedule is way too complicated for me to understand but I'm sure there are people at your schools to help you with the specifics. However, pretty much whatever everyone else said on the thread is fairly accurate as general guidelines. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about anything.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

We get pretty much the same; But sometimes when talking to SOME pre-clinical students, they think having a lecture on CXR makes them an expert in radiology and now they can skip residency and become board eligible for radiology; so it is important to preempt such responses (wasn't directly targeted at you)!

Your clerkship schedule is way too complicated for me to understand but I'm sure there are people at your schools to help you with the specifics. However, pretty much whatever everyone else said on the thread is fairly accurate as general guidelines. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about anything.

Haha, no I didn't think you were necessarily targeting me....just wanted to preface my statements with a "I certainly don't know all" clause

You're right....the rotation schedule is definitely confusing. Most of my classmates don't quite have it figured out yet lol. I'm just trying to tackle the beast early, especially since I'll have to start the process of setting up my selectives & electives for the beginning of 3rd year in the upcoming weeks. It should be an interesting experience (or feat, as it's sounding) getting this all worked out.

Thanks for all your responses though! If anyone else who reads through this has any suggestions on where it's possible to set up guest rotations prior to the core ones, please feel free to shoot them my way