VSAS: Will DO students be shut out of fourth year rotations?

[Redrox]

Has the VSAS program been discussed at your guys's schools? Is anyone concerned or upset as I am? I understand that the program right now is limited but I can really see it growing in the future as the idea of a central application system is a good one.

Here's the letter that was sent to us explaining the situation:

Dear Osteopathic Medical Students:

The American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC) has started a centralized application service for fourth year rotations outside of a student’s home institution. The Visiting Student Application Service (VSAS) was launched in April 2008 at 10 U.S. Liaison Committee for Medical Education (LCME) accredited host schools, and is expanding.

However, the current VSAS program restricts eligibility to students enrolled at U.S. LCME-accredited schools. Therefore, osteopathic medical students applying for senior electives cannot apply through the centralized application service and are requested to utilize either the Extramural Electives Compendium (EEC), or to individually contact the program of interest for information and to request elective rotations.

The American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) and the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) remain committed to providing the best opportunities for osteopathic medical students. We are actively in discussion with the AAMC to expand this service to include osteopathic medical students.

During the interim, we are requesting all students with personal experiences or problems to contact us directly. These stories will show the impact of this restriction, and help us to advocate for change. The point of contact at AACOM is Tyler Cymet, D.O. ([email protected]). Thank you for your time.

____

I am not being alarmist, as long as the AACOM is allowed in the ground floor all will be well, but action must be taken and quickly.

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[jonb12997]

individually contact the program of interest for information and to request elective rotations.

the way I look at this, what's the big deal with doing it this way?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Has the VSAS program been discussed at your guys's schools? Is anyone concerned or upset as I am? I understand that the program right now is limited but I can really see it growing in the future as the idea of a central application system is a good one.

Here's the letter that was sent to us explaining the situation:

Dear Osteopathic Medical Students:

The American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC) has started a centralized application service for fourth year rotations outside of a student’s home institution. The Visiting Student Application Service (VSAS) was launched in April 2008 at 10 U.S. Liaison Committee for Medical Education (LCME) accredited host schools, and is expanding.

However, the current VSAS program restricts eligibility to students enrolled at U.S. LCME-accredited schools. Therefore, osteopathic medical students applying for senior electives cannot apply through the centralized application service and are requested to utilize either the Extramural Electives Compendium (EEC), or to individually contact the program of interest for information and to request elective rotations.

The American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) and the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) remain committed to providing the best opportunities for osteopathic medical students. We are actively in discussion with the AAMC to expand this service to include osteopathic medical students.

During the interim, we are requesting all students with personal experiences or problems to contact us directly. These stories will show the impact of this restriction, and help us to advocate for change. The point of contact at AACOM is Tyler Cymet, D.O. ([email protected]). Thank you for your time.

____

I am not being alarmist, as long as the AACOM is allowed in the ground floor all will be well, but action must be taken and quickly.

I hope this isn't step 1 in a huge line of ways that MD residencies and school sites close their doors to DOs due to recent issues.

 

[DOinMS]

There are currently 63 schools using VSAS. It seems that the move is primarily a way for AAMC to make more money ($15/school).

 

[JaggerPlate]

There are currently 63 schools using VSAS. It seems that the move is primarily a way for AAMC to make more money ($15/school).

Good to know.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I hope this isn't step 1 in a huge line of ways that MD residencies and school sites close their doors to DOs due to recent issues.

Yeah, when DO residencies are open to MD students, then you can talk about "closing doors" to each other.

There are currently 63 schools using VSAS. It seems that the move is primarily a way for AAMC to make more money ($15/school).

...how do you figure? It's a centralized freakin' system, that's a huge improvement. And it's not like you have to sign up for 30 programs (like you do for med school & residency), you sign up for a few. I think it's worth $15 a pop. And the 63 schools have all agreed not to charge additional application fees.

 

[Redrox]

Jeff,

I agree entirely. I see a centralized system for 4th year electives analogous to the matching system. Absolutely the way of the future, and I just fear being left behind.

And in fear of opening up an ugly huge tangent, I absolutely agree that DO residencies should be open to MD's.

 

[hooperg]

Jeff,

I agree entirely. I see a centralized system for 4th year electives analogous to the matching system. Absolutely the way of the future, and I just fear being left behind.

And in fear of opening up an ugly huge tangent, I absolutely agree that DO residencies should be open to MD's.

Unfortunately, the only way I see the osteopathic profession progressing in such a manner is when the implanted leadership of the AOA and associated organizations "expire." Their collective aged, conservative mentality of "DO =/ MD because we touch stuff" is frustrating, stupid, and detrimental to the education of all Osteopathic physicians.

Like it or not, we really need our allopathic comrades' support, and the least we could do is open our humble residencies to them!

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Unfortunately, the only way I see the osteopathic profession progressing in such a manner is when the implanted leadership of the AOA and associated organizations "expire." Their collective aged, conservative mentality of "DO =/ MD because we touch stuff" is frustrating, stupid, and detrimental to the education of all Osteopathic physicians.

Like it or not, we really need our allopathic comrades' support, and the least we could do is open our humble residencies to them!

Amen.

 

[digitlnoize]

Unfortunately, the only way I see the osteopathic profession progressing in such a manner is when the implanted leadership of the AOA and associated organizations "expire." Their collective aged, conservative mentality of "DO =/ MD because we touch stuff" is frustrating, stupid, and detrimental to the education of all Osteopathic physicians.

Like it or not, we really need our allopathic comrades' support, and the least we could do is open our humble residencies to them!

Agreed. Although, we'd either need to drop OMM, or make them take extra CE's in it or something prior to starting...

 

[pianoman511]

Agreed. Although, we'd either need to drop OMM, or make them take extra CE's in it or something prior to starting...

I guess the only problem with that is if we drop OMM, it's not really an osteopathic rotation any more (we can call it that - but bottom line it's just the same as an allopathic). If we make MD students take some extra CE's in OMM, then we defeat the purpose of going through two years of OMM classes to learn something which an MD student can learn in a few hours.

It's a wonderful catch-22.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I guess the only problem with that is if we drop OMM, it's not really an osteopathic rotation any more (we can call it that - but bottom line it's just the same as an allopathic). If we make MD students take some extra CE's in OMM, then we defeat the purpose of going through two years of OMM classes to learn something which an MD student can learn in a few hours.

It's a wonderful catch-22.

So then maybe OMM should be made optional. Has there ever been any sort of survey done to determine what percentage of DOs actually use OMM in practice? Maybe OMM training should come in the form of an "OMM fellowship" that comes after residency.

 

[Peptoboy]

I like this thread, I think the VSAS will just turn out to be a better organizational tool and I don't think it will result in "pushing out" D.O.'s. The AMA has shown Osteopathic physicians a lot of respect the past 10 years or so and I don't see that stopping. I think progress is being made, just slowly!

 

[futuredo32]

So then maybe OMM should be made optional.

Then what would be the point of osteopathic schools? They'd be no different from allopathic schools.

 

[homeboy]

I guess the only problem with that is if we drop OMM, it's not really an osteopathic rotation any more (we can call it that - but bottom line it's just the same as an allopathic). If we make MD students take some extra CE's in OMM, then we defeat the purpose of going through two years of OMM classes to learn something which an MD student can learn in a few hours.

It's a wonderful catch-22.

In my 2 years of clinical rotations, ~half were with DOs. I performed OMM on 1 rotation, on a grand total of 2 patients.

Bottom line: dropping OMM means absolutely NOTHING unless you're seeking it.

 

[TruthMD]

These are MD schools they have the right to do as they wish with their rotation sites. Little mean OLD AOA can't do anything to control this.

You guys should be upset at your DO school and your valuble AOA.

 

[JaggerPlate]

These are MD schools they have the right to do as they wish with their rotation sites. Little mean OLD AOA can't do anything to control this.

You guys should be upset at your DO school and your valuble AOA.

multiple posts reported. please report trolling/spamming posts from this member.

 

[JaggerPlate]

EDIT: Just read up on TruthMD's posting history ... apparently he was a DO student who 'transferred' or started over or something at SGU. I cannot express how invalid his opinion is, and I still suggest reporting any offensive posts. Sad.

 

[TruthMD]

EDIT: Just read up on TruthMD's posting history ... apparently he was a DO student who 'transferred' or started over or something at SGU. I cannot express how invalid his opinion is, and I still suggest reporting any offensive posts. Sad.

you must be kidding. Cause I say something that is opposite to your believes. Believe it or not there are many in DO program who feel the same as me. The only difference is I had the guts to leave and restart from scratch at an MD school.

Do you even know what a troll is? you ignorant and just refuse to hear a different opinion than yours.

 

[TruthMD]

EDIT: Just read up on TruthMD's posting history ... apparently he was a DO student who 'transferred' or started over or something at SGU. I cannot express how invalid his opinion is, and I still suggest reporting any offensive posts. Sad.

Again why would it be invalid. Cause you are ignorant. I say its not AOA's business to control what MD schools do with their rotations and that you should be angry at your DO school and your AOA and my opinion becomes invalid. You are brainwashed get a life and open your eyes. There are opinions other than yours.

 

[Amy B]

Let's just keep things civil and remember no personal attacks and no DO vs MD fighting.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Again why would it be invalid. Cause you are ignorant. I say its not AOA's business to control what MD schools do with their rotations and that you should be angry at your DO school and your AOA and my opinion becomes invalid. You are brainwashed get a life and open your eyes. There are opinions other than yours.

Hahaha ... thank you for saving me from this spell of thinking I should study medicine in the US, as I plan to practice in the US. Man, for a second, I was thinking about class sizes, attrition rates, board pass rates, clinicals, and matching when CLEARLY the goal is to do anything to get the 'MD.' I wish I would have known that I could study in a 3rd world country. Hopefully I can start med school twice too, as these are all obviously better options. Again, I won't respond to you again because you're an absolute joke.



Edit to everyone else: I'm really not trying to bash Caribbean medical schools, just respond to Truth's blabber. Sorry to ANYONE else I offended.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

These are MD schools they have the right to do as they wish with their rotation sites. Little mean OLD AOA can't do anything to control this.

You guys should be upset at your DO school and your valuble AOA.

What, as if going to a Caribbean IMG is a more attractive option?!? Give me a break.

Where do you think you're going to match coming from an IMG?

Again, not trying to offend people here but it seems as though you're the one igniting most of this DO vs. MD acrimony

 

[TeamZissou]

EDIT: Just read up on TruthMD's posting history ... apparently he was a DO student who 'transferred' or started over or something at SGU. I cannot express how invalid his opinion is, and I still suggest reporting any offensive posts. Sad.

Honestly people can we just ignore this. Don't let a good thread go to wase. (ie "Questions about DO's and specialties" thread)

 

[cliquesh]

So then maybe OMM should be made optional. Has there ever been any sort of survey done to determine what percentage of DOs actually use OMM in practice? Maybe OMM training should come in the form of an "OMM fellowship" that comes after residency.

The department chair of OMT at AZCOM told me that 8% of DOs use OMT regularly.

 

[NPEMTIV]

The department chair of OMT at AZCOM told me that 8% of DOs use OMT regularly.

That's probably not far off. If you look at the current reimbursement system its much easier (and possibly more profitable) for the physician to utilize a medication treatment over a 15 minute appoint than an OMT technique over 20 minutes. Then again, I would think that its possible that the 8% is an average over all specialties and you might see a big variance between specialties. For instance, a neurosurgeon probably doesn't use OMM very often despite some OMM Profs. swearing they should. Some PM&R or FPs may do much more than 8%. Depends.... Plus I'm just speculating off what I've observed at my school particularly.

 

[PipiChen]

AAMC has a two prong approach in solving this physician shortage. First, shake the hands of DOs and relieve the imminent constraint. Concurrently, expand the enrollment capacity of MD granting schools and grant preliminary accredidation to new schools so they can recruit students at different phases (at various stage they can ensure they match with the increased enrollment at colleges. It also avoids from accepting subpar candidates if all the new schools come online all at once!). Behind the scene, the theme that unifies all these efforts is to reinforce the stronghold of MD as the mainstream physicians by shuning DOs and IMG from their residencies eventually. I see all these efforts and administrative fences setup to protect MD graduates and their own turf. Unfortunately, with reduced clinical training opportunities, it will be harder for DOs or IMGs to get good residencies later. It is a snow-ball approach, the more it rolls the bigger the issue later will be.

 

[snrub]

Wow, this scares the bejeesus out of me as a 2nd year DO student. Seems on the surface that any sort of "back door" scenario for visiting DO's/IMG's would be during months that would be of no benefits to ensure matching at prospective spots.

 

[Peptoboy]

AAMC has a two prong approach in solving this physician shortage. First, shake the hands of DOs and relieve the imminent constraint. Concurrently, expand the enrollment capacity of MD granting schools and grant preliminary accredidation to new schools so they can recruit students at different phases (at various stage they can ensure they match with the increased enrollment at colleges. It also avoids from accepting subpar candidates if all the new schools come online all at once!). Behind the scene, the theme that unifies all these efforts is to reinforce the stronghold of MD as the mainstream physicians by shuning DOs and IMG from their residencies eventually. I see all these efforts and administrative fences setup to protect MD graduates and their own turf. Unfortunately, with reduced clinical training opportunities, it will be harder for DOs or IMGs to get good residencies later. It is a snow-ball approach, the more it rolls the bigger the issue later will be.

The only problem with this statement is that there are allopathic residencies that do not even come close to filling at the present and need IMG and DO students to fill. I think they would like to have US MD students, but to stay open they must fill their spots or risk closing. At the current rate of expansion they will not find a way to fill all spots with no DO/IMG students.

 

[Peptoboy]

Wow, this scares the bejeesus out of me as a 2nd year DO student. Seems on the surface that any sort of "back door" scenario for visiting DO's/IMG's would be during months that would be of no benefits to ensure matching at prospective spots.

I understand your worry, but I do not think it is waranted. Most of the time to do a visiting MD clerkship rotation you already need to personally coordinate with the program, nothing is really changing. I think it truly just a way for them to make more money.

 

[bioman2006]

FWIW, I checked out a small sample of rotation sites on this issue. The ones that use VSAS (Kansas U, UMichigan, Vanderbilt, UVA, UArkansas, UMass, Columbia, Ohio State, Georgetown, UTennessee, UWashington) have a separate DO application for their programs.

Interestingly, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Kansas, Arkansas, Columbia, Washington, and Tennessee will allow DO students to rotate, but exclude international students from their programs.