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[deleted691894]

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[edawgmd]

The B probably isn't going to be a big deal and it's not going to take a big hit on your GPA. It's anatomy, but a withdrawal is not necessary.

What's more concerning is the "applying late" part. How late are we talking about? Is your primary verified? Even if it is, I think it's too late for you to have any legitimate shot at being accepted this cycle. 512 is a great score and your GPA is great, but instead of applying to those schools and most likely being considered a reapplicant for next cycle, take a gap year and work on your app. I'm sure you'll have a more successful cycle that way. Best of luck!

 

[edawgmd]

Yeah I know it's most likely a waste this cycle just applying to my in states with the expectation of being denied due to lateness thanks for the feedback I am mostly considering dropping it because it doesn't even count towards my major (biochem) and is mostly annoying at this point. I'll see with this next exam grade

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Well if you know it's going to be a waste this cycle then why apply? Just keep in mind that if you submit now, not only will you be at a SERIOUS disadvantage, but you will be considered a reapplicant for the next cycle. State institution often offer the best chances of acceptance for obvious reasons, so why decrease that chance significantly when you can be a very competitive applicant if you apply early next cycle? I am saying this without any negative intentions, but unless you have something that makes you a superstar in your app or you are a URM, your chances now are very slim. You also need to remember that schools will have your application on file and from now until the next cycle ~7 months, you need to have a significant improvement in your app as a reapplicant (Activities, LORs, PS, etc.). Use your time now to maintain a high GPA and get a strong gap year activity.

Don't stress about the anatomy class, your GPA will be fine. Also don't forget that if you take this W, you will need to explain this on your secondaries. If you get an II, it might be something that is brought up by your interviewer and they will think "Why would a potential doctor have a W in an anatomy class without having special circumstances?" So you need to be prepared to have a strong justification for your actions. Hope this helps and best of luck!

 

[Goro]

A W will hurt you more because it will appear that (correctly) you're trying to protect your GPA.

A B will make you appear human.

I am a senior graduating Spring 2017. Just got my MCAT back 512, applying late this cycle to only a few schools. Currently have a 4.0 at my transfer school (been here a year 3.78 at my old institution) should I take a B or withdrawal in Human Anatomy? Currently taking 22 credits so I wouldn't be losing full time status. Never withdrew from a class prior. Thank you for any advice

 

[kb1900]

Does a reapplicant have a large disadvantage?

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Yes it does and almost every secondary asks if you have applied before.

I can't believe how many people don't realize this fact or the fact that two attempt at an mcat are worse than one

 

[Lawpy]

Yes it does and almost every secondary asks if you have applied before.

I can't believe how many people don't realize this fact or the fact that two attempt at an mcat are worse than one

Not always true for the bold especially when dealing with expired scores. Although 3 or more attempts is pretty bad.

 

[kb1900]

Not always true for the bold especially when dealing with expired scores. Although 3 or more attempts is pretty bad.

Totally agreed. I meant specifically people saying "oh if I don't do well my first time I can just take it again" -which is essentially what op is saying with regards to applying

It drives me nuts

 

[kb1900]

No its really not what I was saying in regard to applying, I understand the statistics with this late of an application. Despite this I see not applying as a potential missed opportunity

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well as an outsider, i see it as someone who is going for a high risk high reward long shot who might be shooting themselves in the foot when they dont get in and have a harder time next year.

 

[edawgmd]

No its really not what I was saying in regard to applying, I understand the statistics with this late of an application. Despite this I see not applying as a potential missed opportunity

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Lol believe me. You think you do, but it's not a potential missed opportunity. It's almost a certain "killing your chances of getting into an MD school."

I'm going through my third cycle because I made dumb decisions without doing any thorough research. Applying late first cycle, not having significant changes and jumping into next cycle. As a result, I had to change my entire app to make it even stronger and be disadvantaged as a reapplicant. Not the life you want to go through.... I'm still not having much success this cycle so please make smart decisions. It may seem like there's hope and there's no harm to applying now, but from my experience, it can have serious repercussions. Applying to med schools is about having a strong app, timing, making good decisions, and some luck. Don't shoot yourself in the foot!

 

[Goro]

Depends upon the school.

Reapplying without fixing deficits is never good.

Applying late is NOT a good idea and I can never recommend it.

Does a reapplicant have a large disadvantage?

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[Frogger27]

This site really has a reputation for a reason and kb1900 was completely unhelpful and only seemed to be in the interest of talking down to me. I will talk with the med schools I am considering and then make a choice. I appreciate the legitimate advice and I definitely don't appreciate the condescension I haven't made it to where I am because I am an idiot.

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I don't think kb1900 was being condescending.. Trying to give advice. No one would recommend applying this late. Some schools even have Oct 15 deadlines. You will literally be the last application they look at, and by that time may have 95% of their interview slots filled and all the acceptances handed out.

My advice: apply next cycle and get some tougher skin

 

[MareNostrummm]

Are you taking 22 credits just to graduate on time?

 

[Lawpy]

Just because a score is expired and will not be acceptable for a school's policy, doesnt mean it is not reported and looked at

I don't disagree. I was saying that it's not always true that two scores are worse than one because the first might have expired and the applicant thus had to take the exam again. This is especially true when retaking expired high scores (which wouldn't have been done had these scores been unexpired)

 

[Goro]

Lawper, this is an unwise mindset to have. Pay VERY careful attention to my wise colleague gonnif. I have several Adcom colleague who have no idea that MCAT scores expire, and/or know when said scores expire. Thus, someone who has an expired score, and newer score may very well be viewed differently on first glance by an Adcom member, even up to the point where the adcom decides the candidates fate.

Having a single good score is always the best strategy.

I don't disagree. I was saying that it's not always true that two scores are worse than one because the first might have expired and the applicant thus had to take the exam again. This is especially true when retaking expired high scores (which wouldn't have been done had these scores been unexpired)

Just was making sure the readers at large understand the nuances and dont get caught up in a single idea.

 

[Lawpy]

Lawper, this is an unwise mindset to have. Pay VERY careful attention to my wise colleague gonnif. I have several Adcom colleague who have no idea that MCAT scores expire, and/or know when said scores expire. Thus, someone who has an expired score, and newer score may very well be viewed differently on first glance by an Adcom member, even up to the point where the adcom decides the candidates fate.

Having a single good score is always the best strategy.

? so are these adcoms who are completely oblivious about expired MCAT scores (??) willing to override school policy and interview (and ideally accept) someone with an expired high score?

 

[Lawpy]

I would say that the vast majority of adcom members and evaluators have no idea on the formal school policy for MCAT expiration. That would be a function of admissions staff (not members) for checking on fulfillment. Unless they have set the parameters in the AMCAS compliant software to filter out those results in addition to flagging them, the scores are going to show up

so someone with an expired score can't get interviewed/accepted because the admissions staff would consider them to have not fulfilled the school requirement?

my central doubt hinges on the following: why do scores expire and why do schools have policies regarding expired scores when adcoms and evaluators have no idea about expired scores? why is it required for applicants to retake expired scores in the first place?

 

[Goro]

Admissions Deans are more savvy. I was discussing accepts.

? so are these adcoms who are completely oblivious about expired MCAT scores (??) willing to override school policy and interview (and ideally accept) someone with an expired high score?

 

[wc0921]

I am a senior graduating Spring 2017. Just got my MCAT back 512, applying late this cycle to only a few schools. Currently have a 4.0 at my transfer school (been here a year 3.78 at my old institution) should I take a B or withdrawal in Human Anatomy? Currently taking 22 credits so I wouldn't be losing full time status. Never withdrew from a class prior. Thank you for any advice

To answer your question, take the B. It won't kill you. A withdrawal raises much more of a red flag. Secondly, I echo the above sentiments. Wait a year. Don't risk selling yourself short because you applied late. With your stats, you have a good shot at many programs (assuming there is nothing glaring you're not telling us). Do something productive in this year off. Find some research, shadow, maybe travel and volunteer abroad. Do something that will make you unique and stand out more. If you apply now, and 1. don't get in or 2. settle for less than you could have had if you would have waited, you are going to regret it. Massively.

 

[MareNostrummm]

Well the anatomy part doesn't go to my degree so I took those extra four credits for the education value

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Instead of overloading yourself with 22 units (and getting a B in anatomy) you could have just taken 18 units and used the extra time to volunteer, research, shadow etc.

 

[Lawpy]

You are missing the division of labor here

1) General Policies are set by the school, usually at or around accreditation time
2) Standards for a recent MCAT (usually 2 or 3 years) are generally desired by both AAMC and LCME as reasonable as it should reflect, theoretically, more current ability of the applicant and can be more comparable to the current applicant cohort. The MCAT is the only standardization of applicants across schools.
3) Upon application, the adcom staff (ie the administrative/clerical portion that handles the incoming "paperwork") would deal with non evaluation portion of the admissions process. Part of that in most application intake system is flagging the date when MCAT was taken. So, that would make the file incomplete and will sit with intake until a current MCAT is submitted. It never gets to a adcom reader/evaluator.
4) Lets assume now a fresh MCAT is submitted, along with primary, secondary and LOR, the file is marked complete and passed into readers/evaluators hands and then to adcom for review. Even though the first MCAT is old, it will still be on the application as all MCAT scores are reported. It may be noted on application as old and in a few systems that I have seen, they have configured it out of any MCAT evaluation. But most dont bother. Remember that MCAT, along with GPA, are the parts of the application that get automated processing the most as they numeric.

Lets dig a little deeper here so applicants understand, that essentially all your application information is essentially looked at at least 3 times in different ways.

1) intake/initial screen (admissions office staff). A file gets created when AMCAS transmits to school (or earlier with notice to schools that request). The MCAT and GPA come in. Most schools this will get automatically "scored" or classified. BTW, this is where in multiple MCAT takes, your highest is typically used for this screen, though not always. You get either an overall academic score or classification . Think AP style from Outstanding to subpar/unqualified.

2) Reader/Screener/Evaluator: (formally member of adcom though may or may not be voting on committee depending on how they structure). The MCAT and GPA will be evaluated by this reader who may add or deduct points for multiple MCAT, improvement MCAT, grade trends, Postbacc, and a variety of other reasons.
It here that a reader will unlikely have any knowledge what the school's policy is on old MCAT and may or may not notice how old the scores are. So your raw GPA and MCAT score are evaluated into a school standard point or classification system and will produce an academic score/class for you. The other parts of your application (EC, PS, Secondary) will also be evaluated and scored/classed and ultimately give you a total score/classification. think of this as your review priority. I would very roughly say academic is 40%, primary is 30% and secondary is 30% but that varies widely. All of this gets reported on a scoring/evaluation/summary cover sheet to your application. This included summaries and comments by readers

3) These are then reviewed by the Adcom, which can be whole, a voting section, or step 2 above are subcommittees who are responsible for one group of application from start to finish or other mechanisms. You application may be presented by a reader/evaluator or subcommittee head as advocate. Your score/class is usually review priority and the adcom here will be reading mostly the summary/cover sheets and go into the file upon recommendation of the reader comments (eg "see PS outstanding!" or "strong grade trends" or "notable EC #3". This leads to final cut for II, usually by having reached both a certain score level and having votes on committee. Some day I will write a fuller idea on the dynamics that go one in the "black box" of admissions

Thanks for the detailed writeup on admissions workflow. Saved this for future reference (and also goes to show the importance of being in admissions to see how it works since admittedly i'm acting on incomplete information)

 

[vellez]

If you expect to be rejected, why are you even applying? That's a waste of time, effort, and money + added stress. Why not wait another year and work on your app?

 

[vellez]

Not always true for the bold especially when dealing with expired scores. Although 3 or more attempts is pretty bad.

One solid score is always the best scenario.

 

[edawgmd]

Taking the W but applying next cycle haha that should make the people happy. First W do you think they'll care that much?

You will need to explain that W on all of your secondaries. And you better have a darn good reason or else it is going to hurt your app.

 

[vellez]

Thats what I am doing waiting a year

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Gotcha. Well that's a good idea, IMO.

 

[Lawpy]

One solid score is always the best scenario.

Yes but people don't immediately apply despite excelling on the first attempt (and no, this is not their fault and they have their reasons). Thus, their score expires and they have to retake.

 

[Lawpy]

Is 512 a solid first score does this disqualify me from many schools

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If the 512 is balanced (each subsection = 127 or above), it's a good score for most US MD schools outside the top tiers (a subsection of 126 is OK). If one subsection is unbalanced (<124), it becomes a difficult situation and you may have to retake.

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah my sections were CP:126(68%)CARS:129(95%)BB:128(87%)PS:129(92%)

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I think you're fine for US MD. Don't retake.

 

[edawgmd]

The fact that it doesn't fit anywhere in my major and I didn't want it to distract from my other core courses is going to have to be good enough. This is my first one after all I don't run from a challenge but my core biochemistry classes are challenge enough.

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You still have time to think, but no that is not good enough.

For some context, keep in mind I'm not trying to rip your choice or anything. Just want to help. When I spoke with my Biochem professor (top 30 university if you're curious of credentials), she said that Biochem majors are challenging, but nowhere near what you will encounter in med school. Her husband was a med student while she was getting her PhD and now he is a neurosurgeon at MGH in Boston. She looked at his Biochem notes and told me that the amount our class covers in 1 WHOLE semester was completed in ~2 weeks. In addition, he was taking other classes concurrently Histology, Microbio, Anatomy, Immunology, Cell Bio, Clinicals, etc. The volume of each class was a whole different beast from undergrad classes and many classes taken by grad students. So if you do the math, in one semester of med school, the material is probably ~10+ undergrad classes if you guesstimate.

So if you tell an adcom that an undergrad anatomy class (which is a common bio class to show diverse coursework aside from basic requirements) is a distraction from your "challenging" Biochem courses, they're going to call BS. If you tell them you overloaded on classes, but didn't withdraw before the first month of class and ended up with a W, it shows poor judgment.

Like I said, I believe you that your courses are challenging and I'm not attacking you, but adcoms are not going to like that explanation because they need to make sure their accepted students can handle the material in med school.

 

[edawgmd]

Its not the difficulty more so the time. My younger sister is in the PICU and 22 credits trying to keep it all going and successfully. Its more the time situation and being it's not a requirement it becomes harder to justify to myself as worth while. I'm not in med school yet and I have pulled 4.0 with 21 credits in the past. I'll have a semester after this that'll help smooth over this W its not a pattern its an unfortunate blemish

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I'm sure if you include that in your explanation, it's definitely an acceptable reason as long as you don't have anymore Ws. Good luck with everything!

 

[medbunny56]

A W will hurt you more because it will appear that (correctly) you're trying to protect your GPA.

A B will make you appear human.

what if i'm already in the application cycle? its getting hard to keep up with the anatomy course due to traveling for interviews and would rather take the W and focus on my interviews than get a B

 

[Goro]

Just take the W then. A single one won't kill you.

what if i'm already in the application cycle? its getting hard to keep up with the anatomy course due to traveling for interviews and would rather take the W and focus on my interviews than get a B

 

[medbunny56]

Just take the W then. A single one won't kill you.

Schools don't know I'm taking it right now they will only find out once I send official transcripts (if accepted). Would they ask me why i dropped then? And if so, would my reason for dropping be valid/reasonable? I wasn't expecting to get many interviews after I enrolled

 

[medbunny56]

Well if you know it's going to be a waste this cycle then why apply? Just keep in mind that if you submit now, not only will you be at a SERIOUS disadvantage, but you will be considered a reapplicant for the next cycle. State institution often offer the best chances of acceptance for obvious reasons, so why decrease that chance significantly when you can be a very competitive applicant if you apply early next cycle? I am saying this without any negative intentions, but unless you have something that makes you a superstar in your app or you are a URM, your chances now are very slim. You also need to remember that schools will have your application on file and from now until the next cycle ~7 months, you need to have a significant improvement in your app as a reapplicant (Activities, LORs, PS, etc.). Use your time now to maintain a high GPA and get a strong gap year activity.

Don't stress about the anatomy class, your GPA will be fine. Also don't forget that if you take this W, you will need to explain this on your secondaries. If you get an II, it might be something that is brought up by your interviewer and they will think "Why would a potential doctor have a W in an anatomy class without having special circumstances?" So you need to be prepared to have a strong justification for your actions. Hope this helps and best of luck!

I'm in a similar situation where I have upcoming interviews and am currently enrolled in anatomy. I wasn't expecting to get many interviews when I first enrolled in anatomy but now I'm feeling very overwhelmed with the course and not having enough time for interview prep. I didn't list anatomy on my app so schools don't really know I'm taking it right now they would only find out once I send in official transcripts and if they ask me about it I was thinking of explaining to them that I decided to withdraw to better focus my time on preparing and traveling for my interviews

What do you think?

 

[medbunny56]

I am sorry, but I must strongly disagree with my esteemed colleague from west of st. louis. A student who is willing to to take a W over a B, and thus will have to repeat the course. I am sure this student is think that either their near perfect GPA is in jeopardy and are worried what if I dont get in and have to reapply next year. Well, then you will have to explain a W while you may be re-interviewing and while you are taking the course again. I fail to see how getting a B, which no one, except the applicant will notice, over a W which is much more likely to draw attention. No one will care that you got a B in the course but you.

This an example of the plethora of pernicious premed paranoia pervading postings. That alliteration was inspired by recent news from our president elect.

And now Madam Speaker I yield the floor.

The class is not a requirement for the medical schools that I am interviewing at. I wanted to take the course to help prepare me for medical school however it is consuming my time that I could spend preparing on my interviews and schools don't even know I'm taking the course

 

[MareNostrummm]

If the 512 is balanced (each subsection = 127 or above), it's a good score for most US MD schools outside the top tiers (a subsection of 126 is OK). If one subsection is unbalanced (<124), it becomes a difficult situation and you may have to retake.

How about a 512: 128/124/129/131? Is the 124 CARS, or VR 8 equivalent, that bad especially if 126 is the matriculant average for CARS rather than 127 as in the other 3 sections (so they are already accepting people with slightly lower CARS anyway). 124 is within the standard deviation as well, just on the low side.

 

[Goro]

ANYTHING in your transcript is fair game, especially things that stand out, like spots on an otherwise white canvas.

Schools don't know I'm taking it right now they will only find out once I send official transcripts (if accepted). Would they ask me why i dropped then? And if so, would my reason for dropping be valid/reasonable? I wasn't expecting to get many interviews after I enrolled

 

[MareNostrummm]

I am sorry, but I must strongly disagree with my esteemed colleague from west of st. louis. A student who is willing to to take a W over a B, and thus will have to repeat the course. I am sure this student is think that either their near perfect GPA is in jeopardy and are worried what if I dont get in and have to reapply next year. Well, then you will have to explain a W while you may be re-interviewing and while you are taking the course again. I fail to see how getting a B, which no one, except the applicant will notice, over a W which is much more likely to draw attention. No one will care that you got a B in the course but you.

This an example of the plethora of pernicious premed paranoia pervading postings. That alliteration was inspired by recent news from our president elect.

And now Madam Speaker I yield the floor.

This is unrelated to the OPs comment, but I have two withdrawals during my senior year of undergrad due to a medical illness where I could not finish the quarter ( I was medically excused by a physician and the school accepted it), do I have to disclose what the illness was/ am I likely to be questioned about it during interviews or is it enough to just say that I had a medical reason and leave it at that?

 

[Goro]

Spot on, oh Prince of Punnery

out, out damn spot!