WAMC 510/3.75 Third Time Reapplicant (In 2021)

[rss1080]

Demographics:

• Virginia resident
• White male
• Chemistry major from honors college in 2018
• Working full time since graduation

Stats

• cGPA/sGPA: 3.75, 3.8
• MCAT 506 (2017 128/126/125/127)-> 506 (2018 128/125/126/127) -> 510 (2019 128/127/127/128)

Research

• 600 Hours total
• 1 Poster
• 1 published abstract
• 1 co-first author in a hopefully prestigious journal with an impact factor of 11.5, otherwise one with an impact factor of 3. This will be completed by application
• All of the publications are related, culminating in publication to the journal

Clinical Experience - Volunteering (296 total):

• 96 in ED
• 200 in PACU, Bone Marrow Transplant, STICU, Cancer Center
• Last in 2018 due to working 60+ hours a week since and family commitment, so I am unable to have a consistent free time

Clinical Experience - Employment (1100-1200 total):

• 515 hours as ED scribe until the program was terminated
• Likely at least 500 hours as an orthopedic scribe by application time, currently employed
• Likely at least 100-200 hours as an ED scribe by application time, currently employed

Shadowing:

• Cardiothoracic Surgery - 11
• ED - 24
• Orthopedic Surgery - 20 (Will be probably around 50-80 by the time I apply)

Other Extracurriculars/employment:

• President of service organization
• 200 hours non-clinical volunteering in service organization
• Research assistant
• Research data assistant (Helped manage organization data and flow of participant info, separate from other research)
• Member of health policy club
• Waiter
• Worked concessions at concert venue
• Tutor at College institution, promoted to leadership (1200 hours)
• Website designer recently started a company that I think I will include on my application only if I get enough users. Its completely unrelated and was mainly a project to teach me coding skills, but I turned it into a "company" and will go live soon. To clarify though it is an official LLC and I coded everything myself, I dont know how this would help me on my application though)

Schools

• VCU
• EVMS
• Virginia Tech
• UNC
• University of Maryland
• George Washington
• Georgetown
• Drexel
• Geisinger
• Tulane
• Louisville
• Toledo
• Rosalind Franklin
• Quinnipiac
• Penn State
• Loyola Stritch
• Albany
• Rush
• All DO schools I am eligible for without a DO recommendation as I have never worked with or shadowed a DO physician.

I will be a third time (and last time, regardless of outcome) applicant this upcoming cycle and I decided to start working and redoing everything now because what I have done previously is obviously not working. I know my MCAT is likely my problem, in addition to being an all-around not competitive applicant, but I cannot keep doing this year after year. In a way it feels like I am a 4th time applicant because I was rejected from my schools guaranteed admission program, but I digress. I am getting a head start on my application for the next cycle to allow me to work on it slowly and really improve and think about everything. Additionally, one area I think looks bad is my lack of continued volunteering after graduation. Honestly, I have been unable to find time to volunteer as any volunteer shift would require me to take the whole day off and I have bills and student loans to pay and with low pay of scribing jobs that means a lot of hours working. Is there any advice on how I should state this in my application or am I just overthinking it? Additionally, one question I had was how important it is to match some schools recommendation requirements exactly. For example, with schools that require recommendations from say 2-3 science professors, is it important to meet that exactly or if I apply with strong recommendations from my employers and physicians I work with would that be fine? I only have 1 science professor recommendation that he can re-use, and I feel it is too big of a gap to ask the professors to write me a recommendation after 2 years out of school, when I barely talked with them in the first place. How do people who are out of school for 5-6 or more years apply to these schools with these requirements? Sorry if I come off as arrogant or rude, I promise that is not at all my attention. I am mainly frustrated and any advice I can get to improve my application or change my school list would be greatly appreciated, or even if I should just give up and move on. Thanks again for your time!

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[Mr.Smile12]

Demographics:

• Virginia resident
• White male
• Chemistry major from honors college in 2018
• Working full time since graduation

Stats

• cGPA/sGPA: 3.75, 3.8
• MCAT 506 (2017 128/126/125/127)-> 506 (2018 128/125/126/127) -> 510 (2019 128/127/127/128)

Research

• 600 Hours total
• 1 Poster
• 1 published abstract
• 1 co-first author in a hopefully prestigious journal with an impact factor of 11.5, otherwise one with an impact factor of 3. This will be completed by application
• All of the publications are related, culminating in publication to the journal

Clinical Experience - Volunteering (296 total):

• 96 in ED
• 200 in PACU, Bone Marrow Transplant, STICU, Cancer Center
• Last in 2018 due to working 60+ hours a week since and family commitment, so I am to have a consistent free time

Clinical Experience - Employment (1100-1200 total):

• 515 hours as ED scribe until the program was terminated
• Likely at least 500 hours as an orthopedic scribe by application time, currently employed
• Likely at least 100-200 hours as an ED scribe by application time, currently employed

Shadowing:

• Cardiothoracic Surgery - 11
• ED - 24
• Orthopedic Surgery - 20 (Will be probably around 50-80 by the time I apply)

Other Extracurriculars/employment:

• President of service organization
• 200 hours non-clinical volunteering in service organization
• Research assistant
• Research data assistant (Helped manage organization data and flow of participant info, separate from other research)
• Member of health policy club
• Waiter
• Worked concessions at concert venue
• Tutor at College institution, promoted to leadership (1200 hours)
• Website designer recently started a company that I think I will include on my application only if I get enough users. Its completely unrelated and was mainly a project to teach me coding skills, but I turned it into a "company" and will go live soon. To clarify though it is an official LLC and I coded everything myself, I dont know how this would help me on my application though)

Schools

• VCU
• EVMS
• Virginia Tech
• UNC
• University of Maryland
• George Washington
• Georgetown
• Drexel
• Geisinger
• Tulane
• Louisville
• Toledo
• Rosalind Franklin
• Quinnipiac
• Penn State
• Loyola Stritch
• Albany
• Rush
• All DO schools I am eligible for without a DO recommendation as I have never worked with or shadowed a DO physician.

I will be a third time (and last time, regardless of outcome) applicant this upcoming cycle and I decided to start working and redoing everything now because what I have done previously is obviously not working. I know my MCAT is likely my problem, in addition to being an all-around not competitive applicant, but I cannot keep doing this year after year. In a way it feels like I am a 4th time applicant because I was rejected from my schools guaranteed admission program, but I digress. I am getting a head start on my application for the next cycle to allow me to work on it slowly and really improve and think about everything. Additionally, one area I think looks bad is my lack of continued volunteering after graduation. Honestly, I have been unable to find time to volunteer as any volunteer shift would require me to take the whole day off and I have bills and student loans to pay and with low pay of scribing jobs that means a lot of hours working. Is there any advice on how I should state this in my application or am I just overthinking it? Additionally, one question I had was how important it is to match some schools recommendation requirements exactly. For example, with schools that require recommendations from say 2-3 science professors, is it important to meet that exactly or if I apply with strong recommendations from my employers and physicians I work with would that be fine? I only have 1 science professor recommendation that he can re-use, and I feel it is too big of a gap to ask the professors to write me a recommendation after 2 years out of school, when I barely talked with them in the first place. How do people who are out of school for 5-6 or more years apply to these schools with these requirements? Sorry if I come off as arrogant or rude, I promise that is not at all my attention. I am mainly frustrated and any advice I can get to improve my application or change my school list would be greatly appreciated, or even if I should just give up and move on. Thanks again for your time!

How did you do in your past application attempts (applications, II, alternates/waitlists, rejects without interview, etc.)? Did you apply to DO schools your last time seeing that you were unsuccessful after your first attempt? How much networking did you do before your starting applying in the first place and since then have you maintained any relationships with students at the schools where you really want to go? Are there any items in your description on your application that you are not disclosing such as IA, discoverable items on CBC, etc.? Describe the service opportunity with your community service club, and any other non-school-oriented volunteering you have done (say with a church/faith-based organization). Did you totally revamp your PS in your reapplication?

For LOR's, if a school has a required "recipe" of LOR's, you have to match it (preferred's don't count). You may want to consider asking for a new LOR (or at least re-dated to current time), but you hopefully have had a very strong relationship with the professor in the first place. Employers and other physicians don't usually substitute for a bonafide professor letter unless the physician was a research supervisor and has a professor appointment.

There are lots of DO's in Virginia, and their state organization is very active. You should have no trouble finding a DO or three at least to talk to over coffee, and in all your scribing experience I would be surprised if there wasn't a DO you met nowadays. They are out there, and while not all schools require you to shadow a DO, you should at least know who they are.

 

[candbgirl]

Do you have any nonclinical volunteering to those less fortunate than yourself in the community? You have something buried in your list of ECs but I have no idea why it’s there and what you did. You need shadowing of a primary care doc. I’ve read, that some DO schools will accept a letter from a MD. You might check that out . I’d take Rush off your list. You don’t have anywhere near the service hours they expect.

 

[rss1080]

How did you do in your past application attempts (applications, II, alternates/waitlists, rejects without interview, etc.)?
This application cycle I have received 2 interview invites with no mention of waitlists, otherwise rejections without interviews. In the previous cycle I received one interview invite and was placed on the waitlist.
Did you apply to DO schools your last time seeing that you were unsuccessful after your first attempt?
No, that is entirely my fault because I did not use interfolio and my letter writers would not have submitted the recommendations for several months and by the time I had that completed I felt it would be too late.
How much networking did you do before your starting applying in the first place and since then have you maintained any relationships with students at the schools where you really want to go?
I do not have much networking and am honestly not that familiar with the best way to go about this. Any advice would be appreciated.
Are there any items in your description on your application that you are not disclosing such as IA, discoverable items on CBC, etc.?
No, I live a boring life and have not even received a speeding ticket. The only thing I can maybe think of is I submitted my application in July, so it was kind of late.
Describe the service opportunity with your community service club, and any other non-school-oriented volunteering you have done (say with a church/faith-based organization).
To make it short, it was a large variety of service projects and fundraisers that were completed throughout the year, many of which were long-term commitments. Examples include raking leaves for the elderly, completing activities with patients with dementia, collecting toys for kids in the cancer center, etc. I have also completed random service activities that total maybe 100 hours with several autism groups, but I did not include this on my application as I had no other spots to fill.
Did you totally revamp your PS in your reapplication?
No, I did not as I met with 2 Deans of Admissions and contacted several schools and they said my personal statement was good. I will be completely revising it for this upcoming cycle though.

As for the DO's, there has not been a single one employed at any of the groups I have worked with. I suppose I can work harder on finding one to meet and talk with. The letters I can mostly match as I have one science professor and my research professor. The problem is I do not have a third professor for the schools that would like 3 professors. Thanks for any advice you are able to give me and taking the time to look over everything.

 

[rss1080]

Do you have any nonclinical volunteering to those less fortunate than yourself in the community?
Those 200 hours in the service organization that I become president of involves working with those less fortunate. It wasn't one set volunteer experience, but a variety of different activities, projects, and fundraisers that we would do.
You need shadowing of a primary care doc.
Can I ask why? I have never heard of this before and am curious how it will be different compared to the other experiences.
I’ve read, that some DO schools will accept a letter from a MD.
A handful do and I will be applying to them.
I’d take Rush off your list. You don’t have anywhere near the service hours they expect.
I was not aware of this and you are correct, thank you. Do you know of any other schools I should be applying to or should I focus my efforts on DO schools?

 

[bluepeony]

You need shadowing of a primary care doc.
Can I ask why? I have never heard of this before and am curious how it will be different compared to the other experiences.

Many MD students and the majority of DO students go on to become PCPs. Thus, it is important to shadow primary care providers so you understand what you're getting yourself into.

 

[rss1080]

Even if I know it is not something I would want to do? I am leaning heavily towards ED or surgery, but realistically ED as I probably won't be able to match into the surgical specialities.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Connect with DOs in Virginia: Home

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[Mr.Smile12]

You also mentioned you don't have a third professor letter. With a 4-year undergrad GPA above 3.7, many admissions committee faculty members will find that excuse (can't get 3 professors) rather telling. You went through a major without knowing your faculty, especially with so many A's on your transcript.

You also don't need to use Interfolio for DO applications, I thought. Could you ask your references to send them to AACOMAS directly? Yes Interfolio makes things easier...

Finally, with the exception of your in-state schools, any programs you have applied to twice, drop from your list for your third application. They've had a chance to evaluate your potential and unless they gave you specific advice to improve, the silence should inform you about where they stand.
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[candbgirl]

Even if I know it is not something I would want to do? I am leaning heavily towards ED or surgery, but realistically ED as I probably won't be able to match into the surgical specialities.

Frankly , primary care shadowing is strongly encouraged if not expected . Try doing a search on this forum and you will see replies from many actual ADCOMS recommending some primary care shadowing. You have applied twice without much success, you should want to do anything possible to fill in possible holes. This is an easy fix, why are you against it? And you might end up in primary care, so don’t close that door as a premed.
Have you thought about getting help with your interviewing skills? You’ve interviewed three times with no acceptances so maybe there is something you can improve on in that area. For this cycle, have the schools sent out interview results? Did they give a date for results? You might still be accepted this year so don’t give up hope until you hear one way or another.

 

[rss1080]

First I'm sorry if I came off as against it or rude, that was really not my intention and I didn't mean to come off that way. I know you're just trying to help me and I greatly appreciate it. I was just curious because I know plenty of medical students who never shadowed primary care and I have never heard of this before. I additionally know that primary Care is not for me, so I never saw a use pursuing shadowing for it. I will definitely look into it and will likely try to get some primary care shadowing hours. One school this cycle has already denied me and I have not heard anything definitive from the other school. The previous cycle I was told my problem was not my interview, which especially confused me because I don't know why they would offer me an interview in the first place. Again, I am sorry for coming off as against anything, I promise I am open to any advice, and my questions are only to help me clarify some things and truly understand. If it hasn't come off yet I am very naive about this whole process and really need some guidance.

 

[rss1080]

The two professors that I know are all in the chemistry department. I didn't believe a third chemistry professor would be particularly helpful. The only other real department I was ever in for any meaningful period of time was biology and every professor opened the class with they only give recommendations to preceptors of their classes and wouldn't even meet with me unless I met first with a preceptor, then the TA, then they would meet, which I never did. It might have just been my luck of the draw, but that was my experience. The interfolio comment was just based on the time it took for my recommenders to resubmit their recommendations for this previous cycle, which took months. I imagined I would have had the same struggle with submission to DO's and I didn't want to pressure them especially after I had already bothered them for the past 2 years for recommendation submissions. As for the schools, if they give me specific reasons that I should improve upon should I apply there again? Do you have any other advice on schools to apply to? As I told the other poster I am very sorry if I come off as rude or not open to advice, that is not at all what I am intending. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to both look at my application and give me specific advice. Thanks again.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The two professors that I know are all in the chemistry department. I didn't believe a third chemistry professor would be particularly helpful. The only other real department I was ever in for any meaningful period of time was biology and every professor opened the class with they only give recommendations to preceptors of their classes and wouldn't even meet with me unless I met first with a preceptor, then the TA, then they would meet, which I never did. It might have just been my luck of the draw, but that was my experience. The interfolio comment was just based on the time it took for my recommenders to resubmit their recommendations for this previous cycle, which took months. I imagined I would have had the same struggle with submission to DO's and I didn't want to pressure them especially after I had already bothered them for the past 2 years for recommendation submissions. As for the schools, if they give me specific reasons that I should improve upon should I apply there again? Do you have any other advice on schools to apply to? As I told the other poster I am very sorry if I come off as rude or not open to advice, that is not at all what I am intending. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to both look at my application and give me specific advice. Thanks again.

Recommendations: I am not at your school to understand the position of your biology faculty. Even with such ultimatums, I knew plenty of professors who wound up writing dozens of letters. (As the chief author of committee letters, I could not write a supportive reference letter unless it's for a summer program... I was writing one for every medical school applicant anyway.) In my opinion, it's part of the unpaid part of the job as a premed prerequisite professor to write those letters as long as one is honest with the strength of those letters' support for the candidate.

You still find a way around. You had physics, biochem, upper level biology as well. I guarantee they write letters for the students they liked in spite of any warnings that they have their rules. You ask questions in lecture or discussion. You socialize with your professors through Biology Club or department socials like toy would eighth Chemistry socials. There are also non-science professors like psychology or social science. Maybe your Honors College dean has a faculty appointment? In any case, your school likely got students into medical school in spite of tree biology department's rules and your chemistry professors could have helped I'd tippy asked them for help.

A lot of this is conjecture and hypothetical. Regardless, no medical school faculty member is going to spend one second understanding your biology professors' reticence to write reference letters. All they know is that you didn't meet their expectations, and that could be enough to place your file in a lower priority category when it comes to offers. Or it might not.
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[rss1080]

Recommendations: I am not at your school to understand the position of your biology faculty. Even with such ultimatums, I knew plenty of professors who wound up writing dozens of letters. (As the chief author of committee letters, I could not write a supportive reference letter unless it's for a summer program... I was writing one for every medical school applicant anyway.) In my opinion, it's part of the unpaid part of the job as a premed prerequisite professor to write those letters as long as one is honest with the strength of those letters' support for the candidate.

You still find a way around. You had physics, biochem, upper level biology as well. I guarantee they write letters for the students they liked in spite of any warnings that they have their rules. You ask questions in lecture or discussion. You socialize with your professors through Biology Club or department socials like toy would eighth Chemistry socials. There are also non-science professors like psychology or social science. Maybe your Honors College dean has a faculty appointment? In any case, your school likely got students into medical school in spite of tree biology department's rules and your chemistry professors could have helped I'd tippy asked them for help.

A lot of this is conjecture and hypothetical. Regardless, no medical school faculty member is going to spend one second understanding your biology professors' reticence to write reference letters. All they know is that you didn't meet their expectations, and that could be enough to place your file in a lower priority category when it comes to offers. Or it might not.
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This actually puts me at ease, thank you. Asking for recommendations has been the part about this I dread the most. Do you think it would be OK to email some of these professors after not having talked with them for 3-4 years asking for a recommendation if I explain the situation? It probably won't be a biology professor, but that was what immediately popped into my head. Do you have any advice on what schools I should apply to, or anything else?

 

[Faha]

When you reapply I suggest all these MD schools:
VCU
EVMS
Virginia Tech
West Virginia
George Washington
Georgetown
Wake Forest
NOVA MD
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
Seton Hall
Albany
New York Medical College
Vermont
Quinnipiac
NOVA MD
Tulane
Oakland Beaumont
Wayne State
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
St. Louis
Creighton
TCU-UNT
Also apply to at least 8 DO schools and include CUSOM and VCOM (all achools)

 

[Mr.Smile12]

This actually puts me at ease, thank you. Asking for recommendations has been the part about this I dread the most. Do you think it would be OK to email some of these professors after not having talked with them for 3-4 years asking for a recommendation if I explain the situation? It probably won't be a biology professor, but that was what immediately popped into my head. Do you have any advice on what schools I should apply to, or anything else?

As it stands, if they said no, that's probably just as well. All you can do its ask.

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[WISHMELUCK2]

I agree about trying to find a primary care physician to shadow. I know some medical schools want people to go into primary care (even if you know you do not want to you should never mention that - i think medical schools want you to go into it with an open mindset). Additionally, I think maybe interview prep could help, go over the most common questions and have bullet points you want to hit when they are asked. Do not make it sound rehearsed but definitely practice the "why medicine, tell me about yourself, biggest strenth and weakness questions". Lastly, your EC's do not sound bad at all, more importantly, is how you portray them and the way you write about them. Simply stating that you help the geriatric/underserved community is not enough. You must really dive into it, and focus on how the experience has made you grow as a person, which will ultimately make you a better physician in the future. I think that is one of the most important parts of the application - how does this activity make me grow and what did I get out of it. Its great that you have a published research paper, but you must emphasize what you gained from that experience. Best of luck! Fingers crossed on the one interview from this cycle.