WAMC/Advice: Am I/How to become Competitive for T20s (2023-2024 cycle)

[cassidy_grace2325]

Hi! I would really appreciate some brutally honest advice about my app, and if I should wait to apply/what direction to go to maximize my chances at T20. I've had different advisors tell me I need to focus on retaking the MCAT, others telling me I need another gap year to continue focusing on my narrative. I'm concerned about my shadowing and volunteering, but I also think these are things I can address next semester and be ready to go in time for applications. Would love help with school, as well as advice on whether I'm ready to apply to be competitive for T20s! Thank you guys so much and happy holidays

1. sGPA: 3.85, cGPA: 3.82
2. MCAT: 513 (128/128/128/129)
3. FL resident URM (African American female)
4. Ivy League school, c/o 2024 (1 gap year during the pandemic, contemplating taking a second after graduating to buff application)
5. Clinical Experience: 900hrs 911 EMT, 100hrs running workshops in infant respiratory care with LMIC hospitals (FUTURE: going to begin training as a doula in the new year, hoping to get more experience there)
6. Research Experience: 1000hrs with mfm global health lab (co-first author pub), 2500 hrs with current women's health lab (3rd author pub) (FUTURE: beginning thesis prep in teen pregnancy)
7. Shadowing: 25hrs ER/OBGYN (FUTURE: going to get on this during the christmas break lol)
8. Nonclinical Volunteering: 200hrs with teaching middle schoolers theater (FUTURE: beginning shifts at women's center in Jan)
9. Varsity athlete (4000hrs), Board member for drama club/been in 7 different student productions (2500hrs), founder member of black athletic affinity group (1000hrs) founding member of new sexual assault coalition (300hrs)

Schools I'm Currently Considering:
UCLA (dream school)
USC
UCSF
UCSD
Stanford (lol)
Colorado
Michigan
UF
UMiami
Dartmouth
Brown
Emory
Howard
Yale
Columbia (bigger lol)
Oregon
Northwestern
Ohio State
Washington

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

You’ll get into multiple T20s likely with full tuition scholarships at a few

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Can I ask what your narrative is? I don't know what you think you need to do to boost that.

Yeah, a little more shadowing will help you. Whatever you do with community service off campus or after you graduate will help, but it didn't seem like a critical area to improve from what I can read.

Your MCAT is fine, so I'm guessing your advisors want you to have a higher score for a stronger chance at "higher tier" (their Ivy peer) schools. How important is this?

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

Can I ask what your narrative is? I don't know what you think you need to do to boost that.

Yeah, a little more shadowing will help you. Whatever you do with community service off campus or after you graduate will help, but it didn't seem like a critical area to improve from what I can read.

Your MCAT is fine, so I'm guessing your advisors want you to have a higher score for a stronger chance at "higher tier" (their Ivy peer) schools. How important is this?

Given that I split my time pretty evenly on campus between maternal health work, volleyball, and theatre (with maybe more time spent on the latter two since the pandemic) I've been told that my app may not look as focused on medicine itself/too random. I've been told to take a gap year and demonstrate that medicine is my priority (I'm not entirely sure how else to do this besides maybe just doing more research/clinical work??). They also aren't super thrilled that I don't have any medical-related ECs.

I'm not super interested in any other schools other than the ones I have listed, but was worried about schools like Yale, Columbia, Stanford and Northwestern bc my MCAT is very much on the low end for those schools! I was told that my stats are suboptimal for UCLA/other schools around there and have just been receiving a lot of pressure to retake. My score was around the same as my FLE average, and I just don't know what I would do differently.

 

[YoungMoneyMint]

If you scored around your FLE average, I don’t think I would risk a retake. Like @Mr.Smile12 said, I think another 25-30 hours of shadowing would be super helpful. Not too sure what you could beef up otherwise.

Your app blows mine out of the water (other than MCAT, but I am ORM), and I’ve gotten IIs from several T20s so far, including into one on your list w/ a full-tuition scholarship.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

If you scored around your FLE average, I don’t think I would risk a retake. Like @Mr.Smile12 said, I think another 25-30 hours of shadowing would be super helpful. Not too sure what you could beef up otherwise.

Your app blows mine out of the water (other than MCAT, but I am ORM), and I’ve gotten IIs from several T20s so far, including into one on your list w/ a full-tuition scholarship.

Thank you for your advice! Definitely going to prioritize shadowing. Huge congrats on your IIs and scholarship!! Are there any adjustments you would make to the current school list I have?

 

[YoungMoneyMint]

Thank you for your advice! Definitely going to prioritize shadowing. Huge congrats on your IIs and scholarship!! Are there any adjustments you would make to the current school list I have?

Hmmm, I would definitely add Duke, Pritzker, Mayo, Cornell, Vandy, Hopkins, and Harvard. All of the above LOVE service oriented students who are interested in research.

Hopkins and Vandy do like their high MCATs but they both give you a ton of space in their secondaries to elaborate on your interests and activities, which is hopefully where you’re going to shine.

I think Kaiser is a good shout too; they’re extremely competitive, but they’ll find you if you’re a good fit (speaking from personal experience.)

I would also err on the side of adding a few mid-tiers (Cincy, Iowa, Rochester etc.), but I’m not sure if those are schools you’d be into.

Also, UW is probably a donation so I’d remove that one; they accept VERY few OOSers that don’t live in neighboring states.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

Hmmm, I would definitely add Duke, Pritzker, Mayo, Cornell, Vandy, Hopkins, and Harvard. All of the above LOVE service oriented students who are interested in research.

Hopkins and Vandy do like their high MCATs but they both give you a ton of space in their secondaries to elaborate on your interests and activities, which is hopefully where you’re going to shine.

I think Kaiser is a good shout too; they’re extremely competitive, but they’ll find you if you’re a good fit (speaking from personal experience.)

I would also err on the side of adding a few mid-tiers (Cincy, Iowa, Rochester etc.), but I’m not sure if those are schools you’d be into.

Also, UW is probably a donation so I’d remove that one; they accept VERY few OOSers that don’t live in neighboring states.

HUGELY helpful regarding UW, had no idea about this! I will definitely begin researching some mid-tiers to add on here, have been worried this list is too top heavy/unrealistic! I've also heard similar things regarding Hopkins and Vandy, and wasn't sure if those would be donations as well, but very valuable information. I'm unsure how to research whether some of the other T20s I have on my current list are service minded (specifically looking at UCSF, Stanford, and Columbia), and I find it very hard to determine just from their mission statements (a lot of them have begun to bleed together for me haha). Any word on these schools?

 

[YoungMoneyMint]

Happy to help, I know that it can get confusing!

UCSF is THE service T20 (other than UW), so they are probably one of the more service-friendly schools on your list.

I don’t think Columbia is particularly service-oriented tbh (although I could be mistaken!) Nobody I know who had a service-oriented app interviewed there, but they had at every other school on your list (including Stanford, Hopkins etc.)

Stanford I think is a little bit more tricky. From what I know about them, they’re into the cream-of-the-crop of whatever endeavor (service, athletics, research, business etc.) They’re super difficult to predict, but your profile is likely a good fit, because you’re not just checking boxes but excelling at what you’ve chosen to do (which is a little bit of everything!)

Regardless of whether schools on here are service-oriented or not, you have far more research than the average applicant (myself included.) Even though you want to emphasize service, I think even the research-powerhouse schools would be able to see the value you would add as a potential contributor to research as a whole. So I say you just shoot your shot wherever you’re interested, but make sure you’ve got a somewhat more-balanced list and avoid the OOS-unfriendly schools

 

[a_distant_dream]

Your app reminds me of one of my friends that got into UCLA Geffen + Harvard in 2020. They didn’t have any research at all. Maybe @LizzyM could chime in on (URM 3.8/513 + multiple pubs) vs (3.7/519 + no research)?

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

Your app reminds me of one of my friends that got into UCLA Geffen + Harvard in 2020. They didn’t have any research at all. Maybe @LizzyM could chime in on (URM 3.8/513 + multiple pubs) vs (ORM 3.7/519, no research at all)?

That's extremely encouraging to hear! Did your friend take a post-grad gap year? Just curious!

 

[a_distant_dream]

That's extremely encouraging to hear! Did your friend take a post-grad gap year? Just curious!

Yep, one gap year!

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

You will get into some t5’s.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

You’ll get into multiple T20s likely with full tuition scholarships at a few

Eh...I would not be that sanguine about it. The URM boost means that OP's going to be treated like she's got a 520 MCAT. They'll be in the top half of the pack for top-20 schools, but I wouldn't call them a platinum grade rock star at this point. MCAT's too low for top schools to be slavering over the OP; I'd recommend a retake and a 520+ if they're really gunning for top schools.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

Eh...I would not be that sanguine about it. The URM boost means that OP's going to be treated like she's got a 520 MCAT. They'll be in the top half of the pack for top-20 schools, but I wouldn't call them a platinum grade rock star at this point. MCAT's too low for top schools to be slavering over the OP; I'd recommend a retake and a 520+ if they're really gunning for top schools.

So you recommend a retake to try to get a little closer to 520? i'm not set on Hopkins, WashU, or NYU, but for some of the schools in the bottom half of T20 is it worth the retake? I really appreciate your perspective

 

[based_tuskenraider]

I think you're being shortsighted by focusing only on maximizing your chances on getting into T20s. I've had friends with similar stats have wildly varying levels of success with T20s and T5s. Unless you're trying to go for a super duper fancy speciality there's no reason to focus on the ranking of a school, which is very subjective anyways, and think about which school are the best fit for you and your career. I wouldn't retake a 513 and I think your stats are good as is and your EC's are good.

As of now, your school list is wayyyyy too top heavy and too short. Like I said it's a crapshoot with the T20s so a more diverse school list would help you. I'd look out for school list advice from Faha or Goro. You could also use the Wedgedawg rating system to get an idea of how your school list should be.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

I think you're being shortsighted by focusing only on maximizing your chances on getting into T20s. I've had friends with similar stats have wildly varying levels of success with T20s and T5s. Unless you're trying to go for a super duper fancy speciality there's no reason to focus on the ranking of a school, which is very subjective anyways, and think about which school are the best fit for you and your career. I wouldn't retake a 513 and I think your stats are good as is and your EC's are good.

As of now, your school list is wayyyyy too top heavy and too short. Like I said it's a crapshoot with the T20s so a more diverse school list would help you. I'd look out for school list advice from Faha or Goro. You could also use the Wedgedawg rating system to get an idea of how your school list should be.

Definitely going to check those resources out, thank you so so much for the advice!!!

 

[a_distant_dream]

I think @based_tuskenraider has some good points. A 513 will get you into many places and a retake carries many risks (you might get a 520, but you also might do worse which would really tank your chances and be a huge waste of time / energy). I personally won't comment on school list because I must admit I did a terrible job in this regard (T20 + my state schools).

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

So you recommend a retake to try to get a little closer to 520? i'm not set on Hopkins, WashU, or NYU, but for some of the schools in the bottom half of T20 is it worth the retake? I really appreciate your perspective

1) Why do you want a top 20 school specifically?
2) If you have a genuinely good reason for wanting a top school, yes, retaking would help...IF you can get a 518+ on the retake.
3) If you want to simply get into a reputable US MD school, you are good to go as is. Pack fodder at the top 20s, solid anywhere else.

I'd retake if, and only if, I was consistently breaking 520 on AAMC practice tests. That would make you a solid top 20 applicant.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

1) Why do you want a top 20 school specifically?
2) If you have a genuinely good reason for wanting a top school, yes, retaking would help...IF you can get a 518+ on the retake.
3) If you want to simply get into a reputable US MD school, you are good to go as is. Pack fodder at the top 20s, solid anywhere else.

I'd retake if, and only if, I was consistently breaking 520 on AAMC practice tests. That would make you a solid top 20 applicant.

I don't really need a top 20 school specifically, I think I'm using that phrase as another way to say "how to I make myself the most competitive applicant that I possibly can," which doesn't always translate into a T20 matriculant. A reputable med school is any med school across the board right?

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I don't really need a top 20 school specifically, I think I'm using that phrase as another way to say "how to I make myself the most competitive applicant that I possibly can," which doesn't always translate into a T20 matriculant. A reputable med school is any med school across the board right?

Almost all US MD schools are reputable, with the exception of Cal Northstate.
Make yourself the most competitive you can: retake only if you’re killing practice tests dead. Otherwise, apply as you are.

 

[based_tuskenraider]

I'd honestly apply as you are. I don't think it's worth taking the MCAT again especially when your chances are already solid. You'd just be losing another year of potentially solid income

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I'd honestly apply as you are. I don't think it's worth taking the MCAT again especially when your chances are already solid. You'd just be losing another year of potentially solid income

Yeah, the OP's a solid applicant everywhere but the top 20s and probably pack fodder there. That 513 MCAT may keep you out of the very top schools.

 

[mike-sheree]

Don’t lose sight of what is really the end goal: board certification in specialty of your choice and (probably) post fellowship sub specialty. ANY decent U.S. med school can get you into ANY residency depending on what you do during those 4 years. And for fellowship, what you do during your 3-6 years of residency. You don’t need to overthink this with your background.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

Hi! I just recently posted on here asking about being competitive for the 2023-2024 cycle and received some really helpful feedback! I've created a school list and just wanted to some advice on whether my head was in the right place/if there were any other recommendations! Thank you guys


1. sGPA: 3.85, cGPA: 3.82
2. MCAT: 513 (128/128/128/129)
3. FL resident URM (African American female)
4. Ivy League school, c/o 2024 (1 gap year during the pandemic, contemplating taking a second after graduating to buff application)
5. Clinical Experience: 900hrs 911 EMT, 100hrs running workshops in infant respiratory care with LMIC hospitals (FUTURE: going to begin training as a doula in the new year, hoping to get more experience there)
6. Research Experience: 1000hrs with mfm global health lab (co-first author pub), 2500 hrs with current women's health lab (3rd author pub) (FUTURE: beginning thesis prep in teen pregnancy)
7. Shadowing: 25hrs ER/OBGYN (FUTURE: going to get on this during the christmas break lol)
8. Nonclinical Volunteering: 200hrs with teaching middle schoolers theater (FUTURE: beginning shifts at women's center in Jan)
9. Varsity athlete (4000hrs), Board member for drama club/been in 7 different student productions (2500hrs), founder member of black athletic affinity group (1000hrs) founding member of new sexual assault coalition (300hrs)

School List:

UCLA

Northwestern

USC-Keck

UCSF

Stanford

UF

Michigan

Emory

Ohio State

Mayo

Yale

Case Western

Cornell

Kaiser

FAU

Dartmouth

Arizona- Phoenix

Miami

Colorado

Brown

Albert Einstein

Quinnipiac

UPitt

Mt. Sinai

Cincinatti

Baylor

Duke

Wash U (kind of a crapshoot, considering deleting)

UCF

Virginia

USF

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It doesn't help me at this time to advise you since so many hours are upcoming when it comes to experiences. You know the areas that you need help with. If you are trying to go for one of the fifty T20's, you need to ramp up your volunteering and some shadowing in areas that are different from your EMT work. Again, you are working on this, and I think if you rack up the hours after a year, you'd be even stronger as an applicant. Sometimes starting things the semester before looks like "box-checking", even if it is not your intention.

Regardless, you are on the right track. Have you connected with any affinity groups like SNMA?

 

[chilly_md]

Hi! I just recently posted on here asking about being competitive for the 2023-2024 cycle and received some really helpful feedback! I've created a school list and just wanted to some advice on whether my head was in the right place/if there were any other recommendations! Thank you guys


1. sGPA: 3.85, cGPA: 3.82
2. MCAT: 513 (128/128/128/129)
3. FL resident URM (African American female)
4. Ivy League school, c/o 2024 (1 gap year during the pandemic, contemplating taking a second after graduating to buff application)
5. Clinical Experience: 900hrs 911 EMT, 100hrs running workshops in infant respiratory care with LMIC hospitals (FUTURE: going to begin training as a doula in the new year, hoping to get more experience there)
6. Research Experience: 1000hrs with mfm global health lab (co-first author pub), 2500 hrs with current women's health lab (3rd author pub) (FUTURE: beginning thesis prep in teen pregnancy)
7. Shadowing: 25hrs ER/OBGYN (FUTURE: going to get on this during the christmas break lol)
8. Nonclinical Volunteering: 200hrs with teaching middle schoolers theater (FUTURE: beginning shifts at women's center in Jan)
9. Varsity athlete (4000hrs), Board member for drama club/been in 7 different student productions (2500hrs), founder member of black athletic affinity group (1000hrs) founding member of new sexual assault coalition (300hrs)

School List:

UCLA

Northwestern

USC-Keck

UCSF

Stanford

UF

Michigan

Emory

Ohio State

Mayo

Yale

Case Western

Cornell

Kaiser

FAU

Dartmouth

Arizona- Phoenix

Miami

Colorado

Brown

Albert Einstein

Quinnipiac

UPitt

Mt. Sinai

Cincinatti

Baylor

Duke

Wash U (kind of a crapshoot, considering deleting)

UCF

Virginia

USF

I have merged your post with the original WAMC discussion.

Remove Arizona Phoenix and consider adding Indiana. Baylor uses TMDAS, so be mindful of whether you want to go through that process for just 1 school. You could replace it with NYU since you have other NY schools on your list and they would come to be around the same cost before any financial aid (after factoring in the higher COL vs Baylor but free tuition at NYU). Be sure to gain a significant number of hours at the women's shelter.

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

It doesn't help me at this time to advise you since so many hours are upcoming when it comes to experiences. You know the areas that you need help with. If you are trying to go for one of the fifty T20's, you need to ramp up your volunteering and some shadowing in areas that are different from your EMT work. Again, you are working on this, and I think if you rack up the hours after a year, you'd be even stronger as an applicant. Sometimes starting things the semester before looks like "box-checking", even if it is not your intention.

Regardless, you are on the right track. Have you connected with any affinity groups like SNMA?

I really really appreciate this! I've worried that the volunteering specifically will look like ticking a box, and have been debating whether I should apply now or wait another year to really maximize my chances :/ I have the strongest urge to apply now because I'm so excited about it, but I think I might hold off another year.

I haven't connected with SNMA! I can look that up and become in involved now though

 

[cassidy_grace2325]

I have merged your post with the original WAMC discussion.

Remove Arizona Phoenix and consider adding Indiana. Baylor uses TMDAS, so be mindful of whether you want to go through that process for just 1 school. You could replace it with NYU since you have other NY schools on your list and they would come to be around the same cost before any financial aid (after factoring in the higher COL vs Baylor but free tuition at NYU). Be sure to gain a significant number of hours at the women's shelter.

Sounds good! Was concerned that my stats won't qualify me for NYU (which I'm learning is a stat ***** school), but I completely forgot about the TMDAS

 

[MDMechEngr]

You will receive multiple As from schools that are on your list. The one I attend that is on your list likely will give you a full scholarship. No need to retake the MCAT in my opinion.