WAMC Decent GPA, Low CARS, MSc, Canadian, School List

[victorias]

Interested in MD and MD/PhD programs
What are my chances? Feedback on school list appreciated

Non Traditional, ESL, Low SES, Female, NOT URM, Canadian

Education:
BSc Biology
MSc Medical Sciences

Undergraduate GPA (3.3,3.67, 3.95, 4.0) - strong upward trend
cGPA = 3.61
sGPA (BCMP) = 3.50
All Other GPA = 3.82

Graduate GPA = 3.95

MCAT = 129/123/130/129 (511), 86th percentile
This was a retake score, same low CARS issue in the past

Research experience - I have been involved in research since 2009

During undergrad:

- Completed a 4th year thesis research project (undergraduate)
- Completed a research based field course (experiential learning opportunity)
- 1 online small publication, not peer reviewed (first author from undergraduate)
- 1 oral talk/presentation at a local conference
- 3 years employment experience as a Lab Technician position (total 2000 hours)
- 7 months Research Assistant in Health and Social Science lab (total 200 hours)

During graduate school

- conducted experiments in the lab (2.5 years, 40-70 hours/week)
- 2 peer reviewed publications - original research papers (one first author and one third author)
- 7 national and international conference posters/abstracts
- 3 local invited talks/presentations

After graduation
- 1.5 years of full time work experience in research (2500 hours, ongoing)

EC's

Employment:
1 year full time job in fast food (40 hours/week)
1 year part time office job (10 hours/week)

Clinical Volunteering:
1.5 years Hospital volunteering (150 hours) - followed hospital staff (techs, nurses etc) around the department (shadowed?), direct patient interaction
1 year rehab group volunteer (110 hours) - direct patient interaction, worked one on one with the patients and their families on my own
*No "shadowing" ??? But grew up around family members in medicine so well aware of the life of a physician

Misc.
Undergraduate and Graduate school scholarships
Dean's Honor Roll for 3 years
1 year member + 1 year executive committee member of graduate student club
6 years Active member of a student club
6 months student events/orientation organizer
1 year peer mentoring
3 years Teaching assistant for science courses/labs (bio, chem, stats)
Recreational swimming
Fluent in 4 languages

Potential LOR's (My letters are mostly academic based. EC's were from a few years back so not sure if I can get letters from there. Any feedback on this? )

Undergraduate thesis Supervisor (PI)
Graduate Thesis Supervisor (PI)
Graduate Thesis Advisor/Committee member = he is a faculty member in US
Graduate course instructor
2 Undergraduate Course Instructors
Current boss (assistant dean of the faculty, also a science prof but he never taught me for a course, I just work under him)

My questions:

- What are my chances for MD and also for MD/PhD programs? Would it be worth applying to both?
- Do I need to provide explanation in the application for my low CARS score (ESL)? Id so, how and in which section?

Current school list:

Michigan State university collage of human medicine
Chicago Medical school at Rosalind Franklin (MD only)
Georgetown University School of Medicine
New York medical college
Central Michigan University
SUNY upstate
Virginia Commonwealth University
Wayne State University
Medical College Wisconsin
Sidney Kimmel Medical College
George Washington University School of Medicine
West Virginia University School of Medicine
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine (MD only)
Stony Brook University School of Medicine
University of Maryland School of Medicine
UT Southwestern (MD/PhD)

I would appreciate feedback and input.

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PeruvianMD]

I also got a low CARS score because I am ESL too. Some schools I interviewed at told me they took this into consideration. It seems you have a good amount of research, why not apply to the cleveland clinic lerner program at case western?

 

[victorias]

I also got a low CARS score because I am ESL too. Some schools I interviewed at told me they took this into consideration. It seems you have a good amount of research, why not apply to the cleveland clinic lerner program at case western?

Thanks! Is this program different than the one at Case Western?
I checked Case Western website but they no longer accept Internationals. This website says that Internationals can apply. I am confused.

 

[Goro]

I do not think that you'll have any luck with MD schools. DO should give you some love. Internationals need to have Harvard/Stanford class stats.

 

[LizzyM]

@Goro won't she need DO shadowing and a DO letter for DO schools? CARS 123 is a non starter at the top school. ESL or not you still need to consume and digest massive amounts of literature in a short time period. Native speakers of Spanish might get more leeway as that is a trade off schools might be willing to make but French and other languages not so much.

 

[victorias]

@LizzyM Thanks! Is there a shot at low-mid tier schools? I listed some in my post - is there any use of applying for those this cycle?

Since the MCAT was a retake (third attempt) for me, I am worried that another retake might hurt my chance more than helping me, even if I am able to bring up the CARS to 125-126. Overall MCAT score is decent and I believe my extensive research experience and EC's are decent too. Any suggestions?

 

[Goro]

MD letter and shadowing are fine for most DO schools. At least 14 COMs accept international students...OP will have to check requirements for each. UNECOM and MSUCOM are best chances

@Goro won't she need DO shadowing and a DO letter for DO schools? CARS 123 is a non starter at the top school. ESL or not you still need to consume and digest massive amounts of literature in a short time period. Native speakers of Spanish might get more leeway as that is a trade off schools might be willing to make but French and other languages not so much.

 

[PeruvianMD]

Thanks! Is this program different than the one at Case Western?
I checked Case Western website but they no longer accept Internationals. This website says that Internationals can apply. I am confused.

The university program doesn't accept internationals anymore but the college program (cleveland clinic) still does. And think about applying DO, I got in without a DO letter.

 

[gyngyn]

UTSW matriculated exactly 0 internationals.
What were your MCAT scores?

 

[victorias]

UTSW matriculated exactly 0 internationals.

Thanks for letting me know.
@Fencer suggested it for their MD/PhD program

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks for letting me know.
@Fencer suggested it for their MD/PhD program

They didn't interview a single international for MD/PhD.

 

[LizzyM]

MD/PhD is difficult for internationals because the funding often comes from federal grants that are restricted to US citizens.
Taking the MCAT 3 times and doing poorly in verbal/CARS is not a promising sign. I would not be optimistic about your chances.

 

[victorias]

MD/PhD is difficult for internationals because the funding often comes from federal grants that are restricted to US citizens.
Taking the MCAT 3 times and doing poorly in verbal/CARS is not a promising sign. I would not be optimistic about your chances.

Do I still have a shot at MD schools if I retake and score 125+ on CARS this time?
How bad would it look if I can raise the CARS but overall score stays the same or even goes down a point or two? I am just trying to assess the risks involved in retaking.
- My first two attempts were on the old MCAT and those scores are pretty much expired now (2012 and 2014).

Do you see any other "fixable" weakness in the rest of my application that needs improvement?

Any suggestions on what the next plan of action should be for me?

I was hoping to apply early this cycle and see how it goes but it seems there is no point in doing that.

 

[gyngyn]

"Old" MCAT scores are still visible and are considered in the evaluation of candidates.

 

[LizzyM]

Needing 4 attempts to score "at or above the median" for CARS does not inspire confidence. You would not be a candidate at my school and I don't know enough about other schools to have an opinion.

 

[victorias]

Needing 4 attempts to score "at or above the median" for CARS does not inspire confidence. You would not be a candidate at my school and I don't know enough about other schools to have an opinion.

Is your school among the one I have mentioned on my list above?

 

[victorias]

What were your MCAT scores?

First time applicant

My MCAT scores are:
10/6/10/T (2012)
10/6/8 (2014)
129/123/130/129 = 511 (2017)

I am worried that another retake might hurt my chance more than helping me, even if I am able to bring up the CARS to 125-126. But at the same time, it doesn't seem like a good idea to apply with the 123 CARS even though overall percentile and science scores have improved this time.

 

[gyngyn]

Is your school among the one I have mentioned on my list above?

It's against ToS to identify posters...

 

[gyngyn]

First time applicant

My MCAT scores are:
10/6/10/T (2012)
10/6/8 (2014)
129/123/130/129 = 511 (2017)

I am worried that another retake might hurt my chance more than helping me, even if I am able to bring up the CARS to 125-126. But at the same time, it doesn't seem like a good idea to apply with the 123 CARS even though overall percentile and science scores have improved this time.

You are right. Multiple MCAT's are seen as an independent risk factor at many schools.

 

[victorias]

You are right. Multiple MCAT's are seen as an independent risk factor at many schools.

Thank you, I understand that.

Is there any data available on which schools would automatically screen me out due to low CARS and which ones do a more holistic review of the entire application?

Are all the schools on my list entirely out of reach?

Current school list:

Michigan State university collage of human medicine
Chicago Medical school at Rosalind Franklin
Georgetown University School of Medicine
New York medical college
Central Michigan University
SUNY upstate
Virginia Commonwealth University
Wayne State University
Medical College Wisconsin
Sidney Kimmel Medical College
George Washington University School of Medicine
West Virginia University School of Medicine
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine
Stony Brook University School of Medicine
University of Maryland School of Medicine

 

[JibsGuy52]

Apply DO. I don't like your chances for MD with those retakes. I am a fellow Canadian and just accepted a DO program with similar stats.


Specifically;

MSUCOM
TOUROCOM
UNECOM
NOVA
Midwesterns
WesternU

 

[nonamesleft]

I applied ~8 years ago as a rising college senior. At time of app (only applied once): low GPA, 11PS, 11VR, 10BS, and Q (only score - taken as a rising junior). FWIW, I was also ESL (grade school). Filled out almost every space for the EC stuff. Of my interviews, 2 were US MD/PhD programs. My interpretation of my cycle, verified somewhat by some feedback from schools when I thought I would need to reapply, was 1) my ECs/research/PS were decent, 2) I had REALLY good research letters (I was a very stats-weak MD/PhD applicant) and pretty good academic letters, 3) my grades were a problem but my MCAT passed most initial screens.

From what I've seen of the incoming classes, admissions has only gotten more competitive. I'm fairly certain that my stats (if applying now) would not get me the interviews I did.

My concern for you (which seems to be shared by others here) is that your MCAT score won't make it past the screening process for adcoms to really even consider the ESL or the strengths of your application. In addition, there are "ESL" people that do well on the verbal section of the MCAT. In my super-optimistic (and possibly over-optimistic viewpoint), if you really wanted to apply to MD-granting schools, then you should apply VERY broadly, focusing on Canadian friendly schools. If money is tight, you could focus on schools that screen pre-secondaries. This way, you would know after spending ~$30/school, rather than ~$100/school, if your stats would be competitive enough.

 

[gyngyn]

Is there any data available on which schools would automatically screen me out due to low CARS and which ones do a more holistic review of the entire application?

Are all the schools on my list entirely out of reach?

All schools that I'm familiar with review their target candidates holistically.
For the most part, internationals need to be "better" in some way than similar domestic applicants.

This is a much better list, but some of these choices are not high yield. Maryland, for example, only matriculated 4 internationals and their MCAT median is above your best score. Jefferson also has a median higher than your best score and only interviewed 20 of 733 international applicants (matriculating 8). SUNY Upstate only matriculated 2 regular MD internationals.

 

[victorias]

All schools that I'm familiar with review their target candidates holistically.
For the most part, internationals need to be "better" in some way than similar domestic applicants.

This is a much better list, but some of these choices are not high yield. Maryland, for example, only matriculated 4 internationals and their MCAT median is above your best score. Jefferson also has a median higher than your best score and only interviewed 20 of 733 international applicants (matriculating 8). SUNY Upstate only matriculated 2 regular MD internationals.

Thanks! Any others I should add or remove? What about Dartmouth - I heard they like non trads?

Current list:

Michigan State university collage of human medicine
Chicago Medical school at Rosalind Franklin
Georgetown University School of Medicine
New York medical college
Central Michigan University
Virginia Commonwealth University
Wayne State University
Medical College Wisconsin
George Washington University School of Medicine
West Virginia University School of Medicine
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine
Stony Brook University School of Medicine

 

[victorias]

I applied ~8 years ago as a rising college senior. At time of app (only applied once): low GPA, 11PS, 11VR, 10BS, and Q (only score - taken as a rising junior). FWIW, I was also ESL (grade school). Filled out almost every space for the EC stuff. Of my interviews, 2 were US MD/PhD programs. My interpretation of my cycle, verified somewhat by some feedback from schools when I thought I would need to reapply, was 1) my ECs/research/PS were decent, 2) I had REALLY good research letters (I was a very stats-weak MD/PhD applicant) and pretty good academic letters, 3) my grades were a problem but my MCAT passed most initial screens.

From what I've seen of the incoming classes, admissions has only gotten more competitive. I'm fairly certain that my stats (if applying now) would not get me the interviews I did.

My concern for you (which seems to be shared by others here) is that your MCAT score won't make it past the screening process for adcoms to really even consider the ESL or the strengths of your application. In addition, there are "ESL" people that do well on the verbal section of the MCAT. In my super-optimistic (and possibly over-optimistic viewpoint), if you really wanted to apply to MD-granting schools, then you should apply VERY broadly, focusing on Canadian friendly schools. If money is tight, you could focus on schools that screen pre-secondaries. This way, you would know after spending ~$30/school, rather than ~$100/school, if your stats would be competitive enough.

Thanks for the insight!

I understand my stats are low, so I have dropped the idea of applying for MD/PhD.

But I would like to apply to MD schools at some point. As it stands, CARS/verbal score is for sure holding me back from applying to any Canadian schools (I don't meet the cutoffs). For the US, I have emailed a lot of schools and was told there is no specific cutoff, only a holistic review of the application.

I am just trying to weigh the options and look at the pros/cons of retaking. I need some help with coming up with a concrete plan.

Another thing on my mind - if I wait for another year before applying, some of my prereqs will become more than 10 years old. Some schools informed me that they would require me to retake the first year prereqs if they are more than 10 years old. I don't see this as a feasible option for me.

 

[gyngyn]

Go ahead and apply, then.

 

[JibsGuy52]

Another thing on my mind - if I wait for another year before applying, some of my prereqs will become more than 10 years old. Some schools informed me that they would require me to retake the first year prereqs if they are more than 10 years old. I don't see this as a feasible option for me.

You are playing with fire here by applying MD and MD only. Don't be naive and apply DO as well.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I think you need to take a step back and tell us what your long term goal is here in order for us to give you proper advice. Why are you applying to medical and/or graduate school? Do you want a career as a clinical researcher? Or do you want to be a clinician? Or a basic researcher? There is more than one path to get to each of these, but advising someone like you who has some significant impediments to getting accepted to medical school will depend on where you're hoping to end up in the long run.

If you want to be a basic or translational science researcher, I would suggest that you strongly consider PhD-only programs. These are very international-friendly; most will cover your tuition and living expenses; and you do not need to deal with medical school at all. With your research background, you would likely be very competitive for these programs. Before applying, you would likely need to take the GRE if you haven't already.

If you want to be a clinical physician, a graduate degree is not necessary at all. The issue then becomes one of getting you into a medical school and residency. I would agree with the above posters who advised you to focus on getting into a DO school in that case, although keep in mind that you will likely need to do residency in the US as well if you go this path. To be more competitive for DO apps, you should definitely find a DO to shadow so that you can get a DO LOR.

If you want to be a clinician scientist (do clinical research), I would still advise you to go to DO school, and then do a clinical research MS degree either during med school (take a fifth year to do the MS) or afterward. Many med schools offer these programs, and admission to them is trivial for someone who already has an MD or DO.

In general, getting into graduate school (and getting it paid for) is relatively easy. So you should first seriously consider whether you even need an MD/DO for your career goals. If you decide that you do need to have an MD/DO, then you should focus your effort on getting into a medical school. You can always go to grad school later, during or after your medical training.

 

[hello-doc]

I do not think that you'll have any luck with MD schools. DO should give you some love. Internationals need to have Harvard/Stanford class stats.

My apologies for reviving a 3 year old post. But I’m just incredibly confused. Could you please elaborate on “ Harvard/Stanford class stats?” When I looked at the AAMC data for 2019-2020 MD matriculants, the MCAT/GPA means for Non-citizen/non-PR were 513/3.78. Am I interpreting the table wrong?

Or is 513/3.78 considered Harvard/Stanford class stats? Thank you.

 

[Faha]

You should concentrate on a DO application and I suggest these schools:
AZCOM
CCOM
KCU-COM
LMU-DCOM
MSUCOM
MU-COM
NSU-KPCOM
UNECOM
Touro-NY
WCU-COM

 

[Goro]

My apologies for reviving a 3 year old post. But I’m just incredibly confused. Could you please elaborate on “ Harvard/Stanford class stats?” When I looked at the AAMC data for 2019-2020 MD matriculants, the MCAT/GPA means for Non-citizen/non-PR were 513/3.78. Am I interpreting the table wrong? View attachment 319483Or is 513/3.78 considered Harvard/Stanford class stats? Thank you.

My understanding is that table is skewed by International students who are already undergraduates at the parent institutions of the medical schools.

 

[hello-doc]

You should concentrate on a DO application and I suggest these schools:
AZCOM
CCOM
KCU-COM
LMU-DCOM
MSUCOM
MU-COM
NSU-KPCOM
UNECOM
Touro-NY
WCU-COM

You should concentrate on a DO application and I suggest these schools:
AZCOM
CCOM
KCU-COM
LMU-DCOM
MSUCOM
MU-COM
NSU-KPCOM
UNECOM
Touro-NY
WCU-COM

Hi Faha,
I appreciate your effort to help. Tho Im not sure if you generated the list for me? Since I didn’t post my stats, can you please advice why I should only focus on a DO application?
Thank you

 

[Faha]

Hi Faha,
I appreciate your effort to help. Tho Im not sure if you generated the list for me? Since I didn’t post my stats, can you please advice why I should only focus on a DO application?
Thank you

Sorry, I did not realize this post was 3 years old so just ignore my suggestions !

 

[JibsGuy52]

Hi Faha,
I appreciate your effort to help. Tho Im not sure if you generated the list for me? Since I didn’t post my stats, can you please advice why I should only focus on a DO application?
Thank you

Feel free to PM me. I’m a Canadian DO.