WAMC Interesting Story

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I was curious about my changes at T20 or perhaps any allopathic med school.

Hard Stats:
Valedictorian/Salutatorian at HYPSM (shared)
521 MCAT
Varsity athlete for freshman sophomore (not a “big time” sport but rather on the preppier side. Don’t know if this will have any effect)

Graduated in 2018 and have been working as a middling programmer at various contract gigs since then.

Solid ECs, letters I am guessing are also solid.

Fluent in Spanish, Italian, Ancient Greek (reading/writing), French

Downside:
Arrested Sophomore year for distribution of a controlled substance (think cocaine, MDMA, non prescription benzodiazepines) Plead down to possession plus IA. Very bad decision. Kicked off my team and had to take time off for undergraduate. Finished parole but can’t get it expunged due to statutory limitations.

Tldr: can solid stats overcome questionable past?

edit: during the arrest I was technically charged with evading arrest and class a assault on an officer. These were also dropped.


chances?

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[candbgirl]

You’re going to have to help us here. We need way more than a question.

 

[KnightDoc]

Somewhere between 0% and 100%, depending on what your application looks like.

 

[greys_anatomy]

How were you valedictorian/salutatorian at HYPSM and then also have an IA like that? I'm calling troll

 

[candbgirl]

Try this.

*~*~*~*IMPORTANT: How to Format Your WAMC Thread for Optimal Results and More!!*~*~*~*

Hello, and welcome to the What Are My Chances (WAMC) forum. The purpose of this forum is to Post threads about your chances of acceptance to MD and/or DO schools Have your school list critiqued and modified by other members of SDN Determine how to strengthen your current application General...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Based on purely GPA at my school. Didn’t get into any of the honor societies or prizes because of it but my standing was listed as that and is on transcript. Furthermore, didn’t get chosen to make a speech or anything special. Just listed on graduation brochure.)

 

[Goro]

I was curious about my changes at T20 or perhaps any allopathic med school.

Hard Stats:
Valedictorian/Salutatorian at HYPSM (shared)
521 MCAT
Varsity athlete for freshman sophomore (not a “big time” sport but rather on the preppier side. Don’t know if this will have any effect)

Graduated in 2018 and have been working as a middling programmer at various contract gigs since then.

Solid ECs, letters I am guessing are also solid.

Fluent in Spanish, Italian, Ancient Greek (reading/writing), French

Downside:
Arrested Sophomore year for distribution of a controlled substance (think cocaine, MDMA, non prescription benzodiazepines) Plead down to possession plus IA. Very bad decision. Kicked off my team and had to take time off for undergraduate. Finished parole but can’t get it expunged due to statutory limitations.

Tldr: can solid stats overcome questionable past?

edit: during the arrest I was technically charged with evading arrest and class a assault on an officer. These were also dropped.


chances?

I can't sugarcoat this, you would be DOA at my school. Felonies are deal breakers. Getting the residency position and or licensing may also be very problematic

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I can't sugarcoat this, you would be DOA at my school. Felonies are deal breakers. Getting the residency position and or licensing may also be very problematic

Are misdemeanors also dealbreakers?

thank you

 

[Goro]

Are misdemeanors also dealbreakers?

thank you

Depends upon the misdemeanor.

Crimes against property are usually viewed less seriously than crimes against persons, or those involving moral turpitude. As I have a nephew with a substance abuse disorder, I personally take a dim view of selling drugs.

 

[Goro]

I was curious about my changes at T20 or perhaps any allopathic med school.

Hard Stats:
Valedictorian/Salutatorian at HYPSM (shared)
521 MCAT
Varsity athlete for freshman sophomore (not a “big time” sport but rather on the preppier side. Don’t know if this will have any effect)

Graduated in 2018 and have been working as a middling programmer at various contract gigs since then.

Solid ECs, letters I am guessing are also solid.

Fluent in Spanish, Italian, Ancient Greek (reading/writing), French

Downside:
Arrested Sophomore year for distribution of a controlled substance (think cocaine, MDMA, non prescription benzodiazepines) Plead down to possession plus IA. Very bad decision. Kicked off my team and had to take time off for undergraduate. Finished parole but can’t get it expunged due to statutory limitations.

Tldr: can solid stats overcome questionable past?

edit: during the arrest I was technically charged with evading arrest and class a assault on an officer. These were also dropped.


chances?

Why don't we get some more opinions
@LunaOri
@wysdoc
@Moko
@LizzyM
@Angus Avagadro
@Mr.Smile12
@lord999
@Maimonides1
@Catalystik
@Med Ed

 

[LunaOri]

Drug dealers are not viewed positively; it’s pretty much the opposite of what any school is looking for.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What would be the general ranking of severity of the following crimes or infractions.

-Dealing drugs (felony)
-Assault (misdemeanor)
-DWI (misdemeanor)
-Robbery (felony)
-Plagiarism (IA)
-Public intoxication (IA)
-Identity and credit card theft (felony)
-Illegal possession of firearm (felony)

also what is the cutoff to which a certain crime might not be a auto rejection
asking for a friend

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Basically I am asking because I don’t even know if it’s worth it to apply if it would just be a waste of $7000 that I could put into the market or something.

I am willing to pay even if it means a very small change but if they won’t even look at my application, what’s the point?

 

[Moko]

Drug dealers are not viewed positively; it’s pretty much the opposite of what any school is looking for.

Somewhat ironic

Arrested Sophomore year for distribution of a controlled substance (think cocaine, MDMA, non prescription benzodiazepines) Plead down to possession plus IA. Very bad decision. Kicked off my team and had to take time off for undergraduate. Finished parole but can’t get it expunged due to statutory limitations.

I agree with @Goro and @LunaOri, I would vote "no" in a heartbeat.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Somewhat ironic
View attachment 339447

I agree with @Goro and @LunaOri, I would vote "no" in a heartbeat.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What if it were one of the “lesser crimes” without making light of any of them.

 

[KnightDoc]

Basically I am asking because I don’t even know if it’s worth it to apply if it would just be a waste of $7000 that I could put into the market or something.

I am willing to pay even if it means a very small change but if they won’t even look at my application, what’s the point?

This might seem like a very stupid question, and, if so, I am sorry for asking, but, based on your posts in other threads regarding net present value and opportunity costs, plus your present comment regarding investing application funds in the market, why didn't you rethink your career goals when your unfortunate incident occurred, rather than throwing good money and time after bad and continuing along the premed path without asking the questions you are asking now back then?

It seems as though Wall Street might be more forgiving of your situation than the medical profession, plus they looove Ivy Leaguers and they looove varsity athletes. If your answer is that you cannot imagine doing anything other than medicine, then don't you have to take your shot regardless of the SDN consensus? If not, why did you wait so long to explore the continued viability of this path? Asking for a friend.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

This might seem like a very stupid question, and, if so, I am sorry for asking, but, based on your posts in other threads regarding net present value and opportunity costs, plus your present comment regarding investing application funds in the market, why didn't you rethink your career goals when your unfortunate incident occurred, rather than throwing good money and time after bad and continuing along the premed path without asking the questions you are asking now back then?

It seems as though Wall Street might be more forgiving of your situation than the medical profession, plus they looove Ivy Leaguers and they looove varsity athletes. If your answer is that you cannot imagine doing anything other than medicine, then don't you have to take your shot regardless of the SDN consensus? If not, why did you wait so long to explore the continued viability of this path? Asking for a friend.

I actually have a decent amount of interviews right now (though not quite for front office roles but more for quant/risk management roles). So I guess I’m not putting all of my eggs in one basket. I’m also taking the GRE for finance PhD programs.

I enjoy finance as a hobby and wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to doing it long term, but my dream has always been to be a doctor at a teaching hospital where I could assume both research and clinical roles.

 

[Goro]

-Dealing drugs (felony)

Lethal

-Assault (misdemeanor)

Context would be needed

-DWI (misdemeanor)

Multiple DWIs tend to be lethal. A single one is not especially if it's done prior to the age of 20 in my book

-Robbery (felony)

Lethal

-Plagiarism (IA)

Depends how much malice aforethought there was.

-Public intoxication (IA)

Probably not lethal oh, but the older the applicant was the worst it would look.

-Identity and credit card theft (felony)
-Illegal possession of firearm (felony)

Lethal

also what is the cutoff to which a certain crime might not be a auto rejection

It would depend upon the infraction and the amount of time between the infraction and application depending upon what the infraction was five years might work others may be 10 years. But when I say lethal, there is no statute of limitations.

Here's the problem you're dealing with. Adcoms will have two different thought processes:
1. Why should we admit this person when we have so many other applicants who didn't do anything like this?
2. Is this the sort of person we want in our class?

So I suspect that your medical career is over

 

[greys_anatomy]

@Goro : I would definitely put DWI/DUI as lethal for chances...I wouldn't want someone like that in a med school class

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

@Goro : I would definitely put DWI/DUI as lethal for chances...I wouldn't want someone like that in a med school class

What if said person got serious help after the incident and had documented evidence of not having drank in 4 years? I agree with multiple being lethal of course.

 

[KnightDoc]

@Goro : I would definitely put DWI/DUI as lethal for chances...I wouldn't want someone like that in a med school class

Okay, but you're not an adcom. The reality is that people do come back from it, depending on how young and stupid they were when it happened, how many years have passed, and what they have done to redeem themselves since. So there very well might be someone like that in a med school class, and you'll never know unless they share it with you.

 

[LizzyM]

Think about it this way... would we want to take a chance on having someone who did that in our first year class? on the wards? as our attending physician in 8 years?

If this person were already a member of the second year class, what would we do after this incident? Fos a DWI, I think that the school might intervene to be sure that the student is in treatment for alcohol abuse disorder. The state licensing board would do the same if the offender were a licensed physicain.

Selling drugs... stealing things from people... abuse of children, older adults or the disabled... kiss of death forever as best I can tell.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Think about it this way... would we want to take a chance on having someone who did that in our first year class? on the wards? as our attending physician in 8 years?

If this person were already a member of the second year class, what would we do after this incident? Fos a DWI, I think that the school might intervene to be sure that the student is in treatment for alcohol abuse disorder. The state licensing board would do the same if the offender were a licensed physicain.

Selling drugs... stealing things from people... abuse of children, older adults or the disabled... kiss of death forever as best I can tell.

So an alcohol or drug related offense that convinced a person to become friend of Bill, get help, turn life around etc. and this could be documented through letters might not be an auto rejection? Or would the letters even be read. I mean it would be pretty simple to implement an algorithm that auto rejects anybody with a misdemeanor or IA.

 

[KnightDoc]

So an alcohol or drug related offense that convinced a person to become friend of Bill, get help, turn life around etc. and this could be documented through letters might not be an auto rejection? Or would the letters even be read. I mean it would be pretty simple to implement an algorithm that auto rejects anybody with a misdemeanor or IA.

And this absolutely exists at some schools. At most schools, however, the algorithm flags the application for further manual review, assuming it is otherwise competitive in the first place. At some schools, you don't even receive a secondary with a reported IA.

 

[greys_anatomy]

I mean a DWI/DUI literally could have killed someone...kind of shocked its not being seen as more serious...

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

And this absolutely exists at some schools. At most schools, however, the algorithm flags the application for further manual review, assuming it is otherwise competitive in the first place. At some schools, you don't even receive a secondary with a reported IA.

Honestly, I am kind of glad some won’t send the secondary if there is no chance of admission. Is it probably a good idea to send out more primaries assuming that fewer secondaries will be sent. In other words shift costs up front given the likelihood of a lower primary to secondary conversion rate.

 

[Maimonides1]

Couldn't agree with @Goro and the rest of faculty anymore..!!

Verdict: "DEAD ON ARRIVAL"

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Couldn't agree with @Goro and the rest of faculty anymore..!!

Verdict: "DEAD ON ARRIVAL"

For all of the offenses? Surely public intoxication on its own would be unlikely to doom an app. Clearly it’s less than a DWI or theft

 

[KnightDoc]

Honestly, I am kind of glad some won’t send the secondary if there is no chance of admission. Is it probably a good idea to send out more primaries assuming that fewer secondaries will be sent. In other words shift costs up front given the likelihood of a lower primary to secondary conversion rate.

I totally agree. Contrary to popular opinion, I wish all schools would be much more selective in sending out secondaries. It would save all of us a ton of time and money, but would literally collectively cost the schools tens of millions of dollars that they use to fund their admissions operations.

As a result, under the guise of being able to perform a very thorough holistic review, a few ultimately successful people who might be initially screened out get an opportunity to make their case through their secondaries while literally thousands of people at each school get an opportunity to make a donation before being ghosted for the cycle or being summarily rejected as soon as rejections are released.

This doesn't just apply to applicants with IAs. This applies in general, to all of us. The answer to your question is that it won't work. Most schools will take your secondary money before rejecting you over the IA, if that's what they are ultimately going to do. Relatively few do any screen at all on the front end. And, those that do primarily screen for GPA and MCAT.

 

[LizzyM]

I totally agree. Contrary to popular opinion, I wish all schools would be much more selective in sending out secondaries. It would save all of us a ton of time and money, but would literally collectively cost the schools millions of dollars that they use to fund their admissions operations.

As a result, under the guise of being able to perform a very thorough holistic review, a few ultimately successful people who might be initially screened out get an opportunity to make their case through their secondaries while literally thousands of people at each school get an opportunity to make a donation before being ghosted for the cycle or being summarily rejected as soon as rejections are released.

This doesn't just apply to applicants with IAs. This applies in general, to all of us. The answer to your question is that it won't work. Most schools will take your secondary money before rejecting you over the IA, if that's what they are ultimately going to do. Relatively few do any screen at all on the front end. And, those that do primarily screen for GPA and MCAT.

20-25 years ago, my school did this. One guy didn't get a secondary. A faculty member who was a family friend x 25 years made a plea on his behalf. He got a secondary. He didn't get an interview until someone else with some pull made a plea to the dean of admissions. He was interviewed, admitted, and graduated AOA (honor society). --so much for not being worthy of admission, eh? After that most schools began sending secondaries to everyone. It was around that same time that the application went electronic (2001) and it was suddenly cheap and easy to send the secondary application to everyone rather than printing and snail mailing packets to the selected subset of applicants.

 

[KnightDoc]

20-25 years ago, my school did this. One guy didn't get a secondary. A faculty member who was a family friend x 25 years a plea on his behalf. He got a secondary. He didn't get an interview until someone else with some pull made a plea to the dean of admissions. He was interviewed, admitted, and graduated AOA (honor society). --so much for not being worthy of admission, eh? After that most schools began sending secondaries to everyone. It was around that same time that the application went electronic (2001) and it was suddenly cheap and easy to send the secondary application to everyone rather than printing and snail mailing packets to the selected subset of applicants.

Oh, I totally understand what the schools do and why. As an applicant, I have no choice but to play the game. But, in terms of your story, it doesn't really move me because, while I appreciate the rationale to give us all a shot in return for our $100+ secondary fee, most of us don't know anyone with pull, so we're still not going to receive the opportunity to show that we are AOA caliber that the person in your story did, either at your school or at any of the others that don't prescreen secondaries.

As you know well, given the numbers and the time constraints, most applications are going to be reviewed for a few minutes, tops, before being rejected. That could easily happen without our secondary essays. But then the admissions offices would need another revenue stream to fund their operations.

 

[candbgirl]

I mean a DWI/DUI literally could have killed someone...kind of shocked its not being seen as more serious...

It is being seen as serious. It’s one of those instances where if you put many years between the incident and your application there might be a chance. But you would have to show the you of then is definitely not the you of now by years of remediation and work in the community.

 

[marpmd]

Current M4 here,

Nothing you said is the end of the world, however, it may be the end of a path to medicine for you....for now. If these events happened (including DWI which people have mentioned) as you were an undergrad, or older than 20 years old, they will reflect poorly on your judgement.

Getting into medical school is extraordinarily competitive. I, embarrassingly and shamefully, had a DWI when I was 19. Luckily for me the record was expunged, as I was below the legal limit for a 21 year old.

Even more luckily, no one was hurt.

"No one was hurt". This is a statement I often mutter to myself, and more than that, I see the situation in my dreams over and over again.

"You were young, you made a mistake". I say that to myself constantly.

"Your uncle died when a drunk driver hit him". This happened two years after my own DWI arrest.

I will punish myself forever for what happened, and I will agree with everyone here that has issues with the OP's original statement.

 

[lord999]

DOA for at least a couple of T20 school, mine definitely as you could not get a license in the state with that record. If you came from a privileged background, you would be an automatic disqualify for two of the schools that you possibly graduated from due to stricter enforcement of those policies. Given some of the issues I'm had to deal with over my career (currently appointed on the Board), I always vote against distribution or sales crimes if they would meet the federal standard for employment denial.

By the way, cocaine is treated differently than the rest of your list. Hopefully, it is not that.

 

[zorcandpals]

You only have a conviction for misdemeanor possession right? Thats what i'm getting out of your OP. If so, I dont think you need to report the felony distribution except for a few secondaries that ask. You might need to take more time off and what have you to put distance but possession is a lot more overcomeable than distribution.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Does anybody know if PhD programs for something like finance would be more forgiving as there are fewer issues with licensing.

 

[zorcandpals]

Does anybody know if PhD programs for something like finance would be more forgiving as there are fewer issues with licensing.

They are.

 

[CorgiLoaf]

I would be more worried about getting my medical license. Some states require you to disclose any arrests, even if the charges were later dropped.
In that case, being charged with evading arrest, assaulting a police officer, and possession of hard drugs would likely get you denied for a license. Would be a nightmare to graduate with 300k debt and no way to use your MD.

Some states only ask if you were convicted, in which case possession of hard drugs might not sink you. You should spend a few hundred $ to speak with a licensing attorney before dropping several K on apps.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Regardless, selling drugs is a non starter for admission just 3 yrs since graduation. The 16 "What if?" Questions are irrelevant to OPs initial question. No. Good stats don't overcome a questionable past. Op would have to put more time between his past and demonstrate all the good they have done since. Plenty of high Stat applicants who aren't drug dealers.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Interesting. Teddy Kennedy literally killed somebody and still served in the senate for 35 more years after the fact. Pretty sure he was on the board of HMS and some prominent hospitals in the area.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Interesting. Teddy Kennedy literally killed somebody and still served in the senate for 35 more years after the fact. Pretty sure he was on the board of HMS and some prominent hospitals in the area.

I mean, he also was a Kennedy.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Also was kicked out of Harvard for cheating yet somehow still ended up getting into brown

 

[Goro]

Interesting. Teddy Kennedy literally killed somebody and still served in the senate for 35 more years after the fact. Pretty sure he was on the board of HMS and some prominent hospitals in the area.

Whataboutisms are not a defense. Teddy Kennedy also did not apply to medical school.

 

[gyngyn]

Closing.