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WAMC: What Are My Chances

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by Therapist4Chnge, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. psych.meout

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    Some work at a suicide hotline may be helpful, especially since it is related to long-term interests, but the issue with most clinical experience before grad school is that it quickly leads to diminishing returns. At that stage, you just don't have the experience and training to do the higher level work that is more amenable and impressive to grad programs. There are some positions at that level out there with more advanced responsibilities, e.g., psychometrist positions, but they are relatively few and far between compared to the number of people applying for grad programs.

    You'll probably get better returns on your investments of time and energy if you focus more on getting clinically-oriented research experience. This will get you the requisite research experience while simultaneously working with clinical populations and issues. Furthermore, the more research work you do, the more likely it is that you will get posters and pubs from it. These research products are impressive in and of themselves, but they also offer opportunities to network with people in the field who might eventually become POIs for your eventual grad school apps.
     
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  3. fluidityt

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    Thanks =]

    My plan was kind of to do both. I'm worried that if I don't do the hotline training though, over the next X years I will have to deal with a scenario where I am trying to help someone without any training again... and that is one of the worst feelings, when someone comes to you saying they want to do those things to themselves, and you just have to wing it in hopes of convincing them to get help, call a hotline or police... That's happened a few too many times to me... I really feel like I need to do this.

    I don't have much going on this semester... just working and brushing up on some stuff for the fall. Will start sending messages to people at the university though, maybe I can get in on something early research related!
     
  4. artsyann

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    Crisis Text line is a good one to volunteer for. I volunteer with them.
     
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  5. Indiana_Jane0411

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    I also volunteered with Crisis Text Line before applying (and throughout my first year of a PhD program). I think you definitely want to make sure whatever you’re doing allows you to get experience but does not take away for more beneficial app boosters (read: research experience). CTL fit that role for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  6. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center
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    Research experience will be crucial to strengthening your application for grad school. Get yourself into a research lab ASAP. This might take a little legwork on your part but the sooner you get started, the better. I also transferred as an undergraduate from a smaller campus to a large research university, and despite plentiful opportunities there I still had to knock on several doors before finding a match. Even if there is not a suicide prevention researcher on campus, you could find some related experience working for someone who studies depression, self-harm behaviors, underserved populations, etc. Good luck!
     
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  7. fluidityt

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    Hey again everyone... I've written this from scratch about 4 times now because I honestly don't even know...

    So as you can see from my join date, I've been on the pre-med mindset for about 6 years... back then I made my decision to follow Psychiatry over the other forms of counseling / therapy (including clin psych).

    But now, after two years of not being a neurotic pre-med, and finally looking at class schedules for university, my mind starts drifting back to 6 years ago... when I had a simple goal of having that 45-55 minute of couch time, and devoting myself to being the best talker possible... before the "prestige", pay, and flexibility that Psychiatry had to offer swayed me... and before studying bio, chem, and the like seduced me... <note, pay and "prestige" don't mean anything to me anymore... the flexibility is still alluring though>



    So I've spent a dozen or more hours reading threads the past few days, just to get a rough idea of where I am, and what I need to do...
    But then I see the crazy small acceptance numbers for clinical programs, and I know that (minus the MCAT and coursework), following this path will be harder... And I'm only just looking at this path now, realistically.

    After all of these years I've accumulated close to 1000 hours of research, volunteer, and work experience, and I've somehow managed to keep my grades near perfect.. I know that I'll need to prove myself in university (it's been a long time since I've taken 15+ credits), and that I'll need to get into another lab yesterday, but is it really <that> unlikely for dedicated people with great grades and experiences to get in? (not specifically me)

    I know medical school has somewhere around %40 acceptance, but that is of a VERY narrow pool of people.. people that have been weeded out by rigorous science courses, the brutal MCAT, and high GPA and sGPA cutoffs.


    I know there are no answers except ones I find myself, and I'm not even sure what my question is here. It's just the only other person that I usually go to for advice is telling me to stay with medicine, because they themselves were in a psych phD program (not clinical though), and think med would be a better fit for me.

    So yeah. Not even sure what I'm posting. I feel like a neurotic freshman again, now sitting at 6 years of school, and 3 years of tutoring / mentoring freshman ;}



    Is this path really that freaking unlikely to get in for someone like me? I'm a patient person, but it has been 6 years. I don't want it to be another 5 years with a near 4.0 and a CV as long as this post and still be wondering if I'll have a shot of getting that couch...?

    thanks and /neuroticRamble


    (ps, i know there are tons of master's programs that involve couches, but I'm really hungry for science, and want the best possible training if available.)
     
    #4056 fluidityt, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  8. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    What do you want to be doing on a day to day basis in your career? These are vastly different paths for the most part. As far as the prestige, neither really carries much of that once you're in the healthcare realm, so I'd let those dreams die a merciful death
     
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  9. fluidityt

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    Haha yes, I meant /back then/ it felt more prestigious...

    I want my couch.. and the thought of being involved in research sounds great too. (sounds pretty clear cut, right?)

    But I've been HEAVILY seduced by bio, chem, and the thought of being ANY type of doctor the past half decade. And I know to have that couch for any extended period of time would require me to charge people cash, or underpay myself a lot to work with more diverse populations.

    So not having the couch, i'm sure I would be fine too, and would be a great physician of any type (so my professors and mentors have told me). Which is why, I don't want to change tracks if it's really going to be that unlikely.
     
  10. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    By couch, do you mean you want to do therapy? As for research, kind of depends on how much you want to do, and if you want a substantive role in it or not.
     
  11. fluidityt

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    Yes. The therapy has always been the driving factor for me. Research would be nice, but only if it's available, or if there is a really good opportunity I would focus on that for a while (if that makes sense?)... I'm a flexible person... but yes, I think that to push mental health forward, everyone needs to be involved... So I would want to contribute.

    But the seduction of medicine, and psychiatry, has only gotten greater the more biochem stuff I take... and the more alluring medicine can be, treating complex disorders, or being the sole 'go to' person maybe in a rural area (family + psych dual).

    I don't think I'll ever come to a decision, honestly. It's not quite flipping a coin territory, but knowing if the clinical path is honestly even available would be good.



    Because I'm so flexible, and have so many interests, I think 'Ok, what would be best for society?' and then things get even more complicated...
     
  12. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    I would talk to some people. In all of the hospital settings I've been in (VA, non-profit, private) psychiatrists do pretty much all med management. No therapy. You could do a cash only private practice and do med management and therapy if you'd want, but then you'd pretty much be giving up any chance at research as you won't have institutional affiliation and resources. Also, you don't really get training in research in med school or beyond. Unless you search it out on fellowship or something. If you go Clinical Psych, you could do therapy and research in certain settings. Both careers treat complex disorders. Sounds like you need to do some deep thinking about what you'd really want to be doing in your career, and what you'd be willing to live without before going on to the next step.
     
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  13. fluidityt

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    Yes... you'd think after 6 years I would have figured things out by now, haha?

    But still... I think part of the decision will come back to 'can I actually get in.' I KNOW I can get into medical school.. I've spent 6 years working towards that, and have been given constant guidance and counsel, and know what I need to do to get there.. as long as I dont screw my first year of university up royally, I should be able to get in...

    But this whole phD thing is a new field for me... and I've been reading the past week or so all day about it, and looking through other WAMC... and it seems like if I get some more research in, and smack down the GRE, I would have a decent shot of getting in over the next half decade (fingers crossed not that long though).

    I know it's not a race.. and I shouldn't base decisions on stuff like that... but it still seems like a factor.. and the whole 'not knowing' where I stand competition wise is enough to remind me of levels of neuroticism that haven't felt in years...
     
  14. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    Well, getting in, is a challenge for both. Both options have diploma mills that you can get into as long as you can sign for a loan. But, for reputable schools, admission rates are pretty low. For most PhD programs, you're looking at 2-10% admittance rates. You've got plenty of time, so you should just be setting up to be able to do both if you want to keep your options open.
     
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  15. DCDMB

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    Would love to hear your thoughts on what I am missing to better prepare myself if this doesn't go so swell this year:

    BA in Global Studies and Human Rights (3.78)
    MS in Education (4.0)
    Took Grad course in developmental psychology (4.0)
    Took at least 12 credits of UG Psychology, including Psych Stats (4.0)
    6 months of UG research experience
    Master of Science thesis action research project
    5 years working in Education/Civic engagement as an instructor, education administrator
    Certified wilson reading tutor
    6 months teaching in Cameroon

    GRE: Verbal 159, Quant 150, A 6.0

    Alas, as I do not have a undergrad background in psych, my subject score looks not so hot - 610. Not impressive

    Applied to PCOM (accepted), Drexel, Temple, Northwestern (rejected), NYU (Counseling PhD), Georgia State, Widener

    Should've applied to more schools...

    I'm 29, so I am really not looking to delay too much starting a long program.
     
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  17. fluidityt

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    Uhhhhhh....?

    You have an acceptance... congratulations, future Dr. DCDMB!
     
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  18. DCDMB

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    Haha thanks!
    But my goal is really to be in a fully funded PhD program..so I suppose that's where I was aiming my question. But I appreciate it :)
     
  19. AkiraShinichi

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    Background:
    I realized very late (senior year of college) that instead of an M.D in psychiatry I would like to pursue a PhD in clinical psychology. The biggest reason being, I would like to emphasize the psychotherapy/testing patients process of treatment rather than seeing the patient for 15 min and then prescribing medicine. While I understand that MD's in Psychiatry, who have private practices, can hold hour long sessions, I would like to focus on the behavioral portion of treatment and continue research as part of my education.

    One major setback that is holding me back before applying to a Clinical Psychology program is my GPA. I am Bio psychology Major, minor in Japanese:

    totGPA = 3.28 major GPA = 3.37 psych GPA = 3.71

    My experiences include
    • 200 clinical hours (=140 in a neurology clinic + 50 in pediatrics)
    • President of two clubs and founder of one
    • 3.5 years of lab experience in a Neuroendocrinology lab ( 1 published paper, 2 posters, 1 undergraduate grant)
    What are your suggestions in terms of how I can "make up" for my GPA? Post-bacc graduate level classes at university extensions ? A masters? ??? I also plan to take a year or two off to work as a research assistant/ technician - any opinions on that?
     
  20. psych.meout

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    This is more appropriate for the WAMC thread, but the short answer is that a master's program is your best choice.
     
  21. AkiraShinichi

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    @psych.meout
    Any suggestions on specific master programs? (Psychology...??)
     
  22. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
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    Agreed that that this fits in the WAMC thread. However, I don't see a reason you could not be competitive for doctoral programs assuming your GRE IS competitive
     
  23. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist
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    Mod Note: Merged into the WAMC thread
     
  24. JoePianist

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    I agree with @Justanothergrad: I believe you're nearly competitive to apply for doctoral Clinical Psychology programs, pending your General GRE score. Generally on the GRE, you should aim to score a 155 on the Quantitative and Verbal sections each and a 4.0 on the Analytical Writing Section.

    You had mentioned being a Biological Psychology major, so I don't think post-baccalaureate classes will be necessary. Your Psychology GPA is good as well. And regarding your overall GPA, you can perhaps address your average GPA in your Statement of Purpose (SOP) essay on your applications. I'm guessing that you may have struggled a bit with your pre-medicine classes, so perhaps you can explain in your SOP that you didn't feel that medicine was the right fit for your career interests, for example.

    I also see that you have significant clinical and laboratory experience, which you should also emphasize on your applications since most Clinical Psychology doctorate programs are shifting towards an emphasis on biological science. However, I would recommend that you look into psychology research labs at nearby universities and see if you can become a research assistant for a year or two. As you may know, academic labs often have websites where you can read about ongoing projects, so that's where you should start looking. Reach out to the head researcher of the labs by email or phone, explain your situation, and see if they can get you in.

    I hope this helps, and feel free to message me if you'd like more guidance :)
     
  25. PsyD2019

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    Hey! Thanks. Did you hear back?
     
  26. PsyD2019

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    I posted a couple of days ago and have since taken it to the heart to focus on getting some research experience before applying for a Psy.D. I however still plan to apply in the fall of 2018 and would love to hear if someone can tell me if they believe my research experience will be sufficient and how my chances might look in general. Planning on applying to 3 Psy.D programs (Rutgers (top choice), Yeshiva, CW Post).

    Education:
    Vordiplom (Used to be equivalent to Bachelor's but is now only equivalent to Associate's) in Political Science in Germany GPA: 2.9 (yep, I know.. pretty bad - scared this might be a deal breaker)
    BA: Liberal Studies GPA: 3.9
    MA: Counseling GPA: 4.0

    Clinical Experience:
    1 year experience as mental health counseling intern at substance abuse outpatient clinic
    I will be looking into finding a part-time job (so that I can still do research) to begin in May so will have an additional 8 months of clinical experience by the time I apply (either private practice, community mental health center, child welfare agency etc.)

    Research experience:
    Just joined one research lab as a volunteer RA (11 months by the time I apply)
    Planning on joining a second research lab as a volunteer RA one in May (8 months by the time I apply)
    Possibly joining a third research project

    Volunteer experience:
    Crisis text volunteer
    Founded post-partum support group

    GRE's:
    not taken yet
     
  27. logicpsych2012

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    Yeah, I got interviews to all of my PsyDs except Baylor/Rutgers and one PhD!
     
  28. PsyD2019

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    Congratulations!! Would you mind letting me know how it went and what they asked? Also what is your clinical and research experience if you don't mind me asking? Good luck!!!! :)
     
  29. PsyD2019

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    Can anyone advice on this please? Many thanks!
     
  30. psych.meout

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    I wouldn't worry about your GPA from the "Vordiplom," because your undergrad and grad GPAs are so good.

    Focus on doing well on the GRE and getting more research experience, but you should also be applying to significantly more than three programs to increase your chances of admission,as well as geographically diversify your application locations. You should also consider the financial costs of the programs you've chosen, as it's quite easy to accrue >$100,000 debt from tuition alone in the latter two. Maybe consider some more balanced, fully-funded PhD programs.
     
  31. JoePianist

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    I think sticking to volunteering in two labs is sufficient – three labs might be overboard. More importantly, you'll want to get involved in contributing to papers, posters, abstracts, and presentations produced in these labs – make sure you talk to the head researcher in each lab to express your interest early on!
     
  32. logicpsych2012

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    I sent you a private message.
     
  33. PsyD2019

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    Hi,

    Thanks a lot! I did not think my research experience would be sufficient to apply to PhD's but I will consider it. Unfortunately I cannot apply anywhere outside of New York area because of my husband's job(which we will need more than ever during grad school :))
     
  34. PsyD2019

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    Oh I did not even see! Let me check. Thanks!
     
  35. BulbaThor

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    Quick question,

    Should I even bother applying with a 3.0 GPA for a PhD program? I dropped out of high school then failed a whole year of college 10 years ago and I've had an upward trend ever since. Should I look into Master's Programs then try to apply to a PhD? I should note that my Psychology GPA is 3.8
     
  36. psych.meout

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    An upward trajectory is good, but you may be too low to directly go into a PhD program. A master's program with a thesis would be a great way to demonstrate you can handle graduate-level coursework while getting plenty of research experience.
     
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  37. BulbaThor

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    Thanks! I figured as much. Would really good GRE scores even affect my chances?
     
  38. psych.meout

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    If you just killed it and had other really impressive stats (e.g., first-author posters and pubs) you might get admitted, but it's going to be a stretch.
     
  39. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    Maybe, if it was 90%+ at a minimum. You'd also need to have good research experiences and some awesome letters of rec to offset that GPA.
     
  40. calimich

    calimich Assistant Professor
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    Yes! I had a lower undergrad GPA than you and nearly 0 research experience when I applied. Given, 10 years had passed since undergrad, I excelled in a related career, and my GRE's were excellent. I think a key point was being able to articulate how lived experience informed my research & clinical interests. Feel free to pm if you'd like.
     
  41. koharu

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    Would I be wasting my time getting a second master’s before applying to PhD clinical psych programs? I graduate in May with an MSW and my GPA is currently 3.75. My undergrad GPA was 3.09 and GRE scores are 150 V, 148 Q, and 4 Writing. I have ZERO research experience and not many letters of recommendation. (My MSW degree is online and while its a rigorous and top ranked program, I’m unable to build relationships with my teachers and I didn’t build relationships during undergrad either.)

    Should I get a master’s with a thesis? Even if I take the GRE again and get excellent scores, would I have a good chance at getting into a PhD? Any other advice/tips?

    Don't know if it helps to note that I did horrible the first couple of years of undergrad but started improving after year 2/3 - my GPA was 3.55 - 3.96 during my last two years of undergrad and my psych GPA was 3.79.
     
  42. psych.meout

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    Without any research experience, there's basically no chance of getting into clinical psych PhD programs. That's definitely an area where you will need to make progress, however you do it, e.g., an RA position, another MA/MS, etc.

    As far as GPAs and GREs go, often high GRE scores can compensate for less competitive GPAs, as can grad GPAs. The problem is that I'm not sure that online degrees will really help you. It might even hurt you at some programs.

    Why not continue with the MSW and get licensed? Why is it that you want to go for a PhD in clinical psych? What is it that you want to do and why is a clinical psych PhD key to doing that?
     
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  43. koharu

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    I considered doing both - waiting a couple of years to apply to phd programs and spending those years gaining more work experience/LCSW and paying off debt and student loans. My ultimate goal would be to return to get a phd, though.

    I want to get a PhD in clinical psychology to further research pathology and mental health ( my primary areas of interest are children/families and at-risk youth). Career wise, I want to work in a university setting and focus on doing research and teaching. I feel that having a PhD would be helpful because I would be seen as an expert within the field which would allow me to also offer consulting services to agencies/organizations. Getting the highest degree within psychology is something really valuable to me as I'm really passionate about the field.

    I just worry that too many years out of school may hurt me when applying or that having multiple Master degrees may make me overqualified for PhD admission or give the impression of a lack of direction or indecisiveness - though I believe the fields are closely related. (My transcript doesn't indicate my MSW is online and my school is brick-and-mortar so programs won't know unless I disclose this information).
     
    #4091 koharu, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  44. wtfook

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    I think you would need to focus your interests a lot more before doing a PhD. There are several ways you can research "families and at risk youth." For example, are you interested in youth in the juvenile justice system? Foster youth? Family therapy? School based interventions? And within THOSE factors are you interested in looking at interventions, preventative care, depression, oppositional disorders, ADHD, anxiety, suicidal behavior, trauma, etc... There are people all over the country in both clinical and counseling programs doing these things so just saying "children/families and at risk youth" is too broad.

    From there, you can definitely get your LCSW, work off loans, and join a research lab. OR you can work at a research institution doing therapy and see if you can't join a team at your work place. I absolutely know people who have done that, worked enough hours to get licensure WHILE doing research to focus their interests, and then later started a fully funded PhD Program. Honestly, I wouldn't focus so much on the clinical vs. counseling part so much as who is doing work in the area that you are interested in. There are prof in clinical and counseling programs working within those general populations and in a range of focuses.

    I totally understand the age concern. If it helps, I am turning 30 this year and I am only finishing up my 1st year of my doctoral program. Honestly, I have had personally weird questions about my age from interviews at clinical programs but never from counseling programs. Others may have different experiences, and I'm sure there are counseling programs that will throw the age card at you, especially if you are a woman (like I am). Age should not matter based on skill alone. You have more experience and maturity! It's only a problem if the program is worried about you taking time off to start a family, and if they are that type of program, clinical or counseling you don't want to be there.
     
  45. singasongofjoy

    Psychologist

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    I'm pretty sure that's one of those questions they are not supposed to ask about, so it is interesting that you did get asked about your age. I was 28 when interviewing and never got any questions about my age, and it never crossed my mind that I might be (but I wouldn't consider 28 and 30 to be "old," so...). What kind of questions did you get and were they from faculty or students?
     
  46. artsyann

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    I got asked about my age, my husband’s profession and how many kids I have. It made me very uncomfortable.
     
  47. wtfook

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    Yeah unfortunately even if they're not supposed to ask you that you may get some people who just cannot keep their biases in. I was 28 when I was interviewing as well and it was jarring for me too, since I didn't really expect it. But it was my first interview of the cycle so after that I paid close attention to whether a program seemed supportive of women (of any age) who may take an indirect path. I got only one comment from the faculty member I was interviewing to work with. He said something along the lines of, "You know you're older than the students we typically take." And he said something after that that kind of alluded to my plans for the future within my personal life without directly saying it. So I was a little confused and wasn't sure how to answer, and only later did I realize he was asking about my personal life.
     
  48. wtfook

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    Yeah I bet. That's totally unprofessional.
     
  49. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist
    Psychologist Faculty

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    Unethical for sure. If they cross those boundaries during interview, it is safe to assume that behavior predicts future behavior.

    Everything is data.
     
  50. Passion4Kids

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    Hi everyone, I am a junior undergraduate student who wants to go to a clinical phd program after college with a child emphasis. I am a Child, Youth and Family Studies major with a minor is psych and sociology. I recently changed my major just last year because I decided med school wasn’t the right route for me. Bc of this all my science classes were terrible I got C’s or C+s in all my hard sciences which brought my gpa down. Currently my cumultive gpa is close to a 3.0 This semester my new classes are amazing and I love them! I’m hoping to get all A’s this semester to bring my gpa up to a 3.4-3.5 range. I still want to be able to graduate on time (May 2018). I will be taking more psych classes as well. I have been doing a lot of research on grad schools and my dream school is Northwestern University because one of their labs I fell in love with. I know they only accept 4-8 people though which scares me. I will also be taking the GRE this summer so I have started studying for that already. I have already been involved with research at the university I started doing research in August of 2017. And I am still working in that lab as an RA. I am also going to try and get some clinical experience this summer by working at a mental health facility and try to find a research lab this summer and take more psych classes as well. I also did work at a summer camp last summer and worked with children and adults with disabilities.

    These are the few schools that I am looking at:

    Univ of Denver
    Univ of Pitt
    Univ of Georgia
    Univ of Alabama Birmingham
    Univ of Massachusetts
    Northwestern
    Rutgers
    UC SAN DIEGO
    UCLA

    Does anyone know if I would be a competitive applicant? Also are there any less competitive clinical psych programs that I should apply to? I have to apply tona variety of them! Please let me know I need someone’s help!! I’m really scared of the GRE bc I hate standardized tests but I’ll see how it goes this summer! Any thoughts???
     
  51. psych.meout

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    This belongs in the WAMC thread.
     
  52. Passion4Kids

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    Hi everyone, I am a junior undergraduate student who wants to go to a clinical phd program after college with a child emphasis. I am a Child, Youth and Family Studies major with a minor in psych and sociology. I recently changed my major just last year because I decided med school wasn’t the right route for me. Bc of this all my science classes were terrible I got C’s or C+s in all my hard sciences which brought my gpa down. Currently my cumulative gpa is close to a 3.0 This semester my new classes are amazing and I love them! I’m hoping to get all A’s this semester to bring my gpa up to a 3.4-3.5 range. I still want to be able to graduate on time (May 2019). I will be taking more psych classes as well. I have been doing a lot of research on grad schools and my dream school is Northwestern University because one of their labs I fell in love with. I know they only accept 4-8 people though which scares me. I will also be taking the GRE this summer so I have started studying for that already. I have already been involved with research at the university I started doing research in August of 2017. And I am still working in that lab as an RA. I am also going to try and get some clinical experience this summer by working at a mental health facility and try to find a research lab this summer and take more psych classes as well. I also did work at a summer camp last summer and worked with children and adults with disabilities. Also another thing is it required for me to take the Psych GRE? I looked at the schools I'm looking at and a lot of them only require the general GRE. Also the psych GRE is only available for a couple times during the year and not in the fall so I was planning on just taking the general one.

    These are the few schools that I am looking at:

    Univ of Denver
    Univ of Pitt
    Univ of Georgia
    Univ of Alabama Birmingham
    Univ of Massachusetts
    Northwestern
    Rutgers
    UC SAN DIEGO
    UCLA

    Does anyone know if I would be a competitive applicant? Also are there any less competitive clinical psych programs that I should apply to? I have to apply to a variety of them! Please let me know I need someone’s help!! I’m really scared of the GRE bc I hate standardized tests but I’ll see how it goes this summer! Any thoughts???
     
    #4100 Passion4Kids, Feb 20, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
    Indiana_Jane0411 likes this.

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