Warning to all Indian Pre-Meds: Read My Story

[dockdock]

This is a forum and an open exchange of ideas from people within or with experience with the field of medicine.

He never said he HATES medicine as you say, he said after introspection and experienced realized it wasn't how he wanted to spend the balance of his life. Parents pressuring their children to go into medicine is a prevalent theme, and even moreso in Indians. Explain how he is so malignant again?

edit: I will concede his last post was a little hostile.

I agree, Northerner. My last post was hostile. I edited it to be more diplomatic.

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[Premedtomed]

It's an open forum. I'm a US-trained MD. I think that settles the matter.

no offense why not do something creative then?
US is all about entrepreneurship - seems like you are an intelligent person.
Start something if you want people to listen to you in a more constructive manner.

Something about Indians here in the US(or anywhere else) that I can say is - lack of interest in entrepreneurship is an issue. There are a great number of Indian (Bhartiya) entrepreneurs but more are needed

THINK BIG

 

[Northerner]

He is doing something creative.

He is also reflecting on his experiences to address a cultural theme, in an effort to help others gain perspective on their own lives and experiences. The only reason I would guess people would be threatened by that would be insecurity, and they're quite possibly the ones who need to hear it the most.

 

[dockdock]

DockDock's mom, if you are reading this, Please Please Please stop forcing him to keep posting in this forum, It is not healthy for his mental status and may deteriorate his abilities in his newly found occupation and studies in physics (was it???)

Your words imply that you "look down" on a field like physics. You seem to be mocking the field I've chosen.

THIS is my problem with the Indian community and medicine. No, being a physicist will not win me any accolades in the local Indian community; I won't ever be the big social hot-shot amongst the Indians.

Besides studying physics, I play in a rock band. All of these things are ridiculed by the Indian community. Perhaps you think I'm less than you now; perhaps you don't understand that I graduated from a US medical school (a top-ranked one). Perhaps you don't understand I didn't need to use the go-to-India loophole.

My only goal is that maybe some Indian kid who's being pressured into medicine will reconsider.

I consider medicine to be the most important job in the world; I don't think it should be used as a status symbol. Viewing it as a status symbol leads to people ending up in medicine when they have no real desire to be there; it makes people say, "I'm going to be a doctor, hell or high water." And then some of those people use the loophole method.

I know of an Indian kid who failed out of a BS/MD program here in the states; that was FIVE YEARS ago. What has he done since then? Absolutely nothing. He has no degree, no skills, never had a job. He's been trying to get into another med school abroad. Does he like helping people? No. Why then is he doing this? Why doesn't he just move on and get another job? Simple: the status. His parents are doctors, and they're the social hot-shots in the local Indian community. Having a son who's in business instead of medicine? HA! They'll never allow it.

Ah well, continue the flaming, please.

 

[BDS-DMD]

I think dockdock has taken a very brave yet correct stand. I do know a few people back home in India who were forced into Med/Dental School. Some failed badly, others did very well because they worked hard. But they were a mental wreck.

Here in the US, people have the chance of doing something else with their lives even after say Med school. Imagine the condition of the people in India who were forced into it and now have to do something they never wanted to for the rest of their lives.

FYI, I finished dental school in India 3 years ago and am now in the dental school here(both top ranked ones). I chose to go into dentistry by choice and am very happy about it.

 

[Premedtomed]

Having a son who's in business instead of medicine? HA! They'll never allow it.

Ah well, continue the flaming, please.

This is what I don't like. We (Indians, Bhartiya Peoples) are very good at following a system. But when it comes to taking a risk or being a little bold, we tend to shy away. Culturally speaking, ( if you cannot understand my confidence, which stems from achieving success here in the US and exlporing the American culture, then this might not make sense) we need to be more optimistic and open to newer challenges.

This is a very broad generalization

 

[Premedtomed]

FYI, I finished dental school in India 3 years ago and am now in the dental school here(both top ranked ones). I chose to go into dentistry by choice and am very happy about it.

Couldn't get in a medical school

just kidding (a little medical humor)

 

[BDS-DMD]

ha! ha!

I don't know how much you know about the medical education scene in India but it is pretty bad.

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

I agree with you. Quite a bit of the Indian premeds I have met also are in it for the money as well. I find that as a group they tend to cheat more as well. I am not saying that the other American students did not cheat, however I found it quite odd that all the Indians would be sitting together and whispering during exams. I have also dealt with complaints from other American students who have witnessed cheating among them as well. They also have the audacity to brag about cheating as well. Thankfully, in cases where they have been caught they have been suspended. However, I feel that Asians are no smarter than whites, hispanics or blacks. The fact of the matter is your education depends on how much time that you spend on it.

 

[DrWBD]

Dockdock, your original posting illustrates a very real problem that too many people want to pretend doesn't exist.
You should take it as a credit that so many desi SDNers feel the need to vilify you for expressing your viewpoint.

 

[drrinoo]

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3340


Steve Raymer
YaleGlobal, 16 February 2004




Rahul Sharma, a resident physician of Indian origin, examines a patient at New York's Bellevue Hospital: The opportunities for his fellow countrymen to join his profession in the US may be shrinking. (Photo (c) Steve Raymer 2004)

NEW YORK: Around 600 B.C., more than a century before the Greek physician Hippocrates became the greatest healer of his era, the Indians Atreya and Susrata established medical schools in separate parts of the subcontinent. About the same time, Indian doctors developed a code of ethics that required healers to maintain patient confidentiality and lead a life dedicated to caring for the sick.

Today Indian doctors have become a powerful influence in medicine across the world - from North America and Great Britain to East Africa, Malaysia, and Singapore. Nowhere is their authority more keenly felt than in the United States, where Indians make up the largest non-Caucasian segment of the American medical community. Indian doctors have found a home in the medical marketplace, where they are a mainstay in primary patient care in urban and rural areas. Numbering over 38,000, physicians of Indian origin account for one in every 20 doctors practicing medicine in the US. Another 12,000 Indians and Indian-Americans are medical students and residents - doctors in specialty training - in teaching hospitals across the country. And Indians make up roughly 20 percent of the "International Medical Graduates" - or foreign-trained doctors - operating in the U.S.





But new challenges may slow the influx of Indian doctors. Many say they are having difficulty getting US visas after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. And a professional backlash has challenged new immigrants looking to join the lucrative American medical establishment.

"It's never been easy to come to the United States, but it is even more difficult now," says Sharad Lakhanpal, president of the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (AAPI) and a clinical professor of medicine at University of Texas-Southwestern in Dallas. "Moreover, there are many subtle forms of discrimination. Even second-generation Indians feel discrimination in application for residencies and fellowships at teaching hospitals. Some just don't get applications sent to them."

Ironically, these challenges come at a time when the US medical establishment, led by the powerful American Medical Association (AMA), says the country now faces a physician shortage in some regions and specialties. For the past two decades, the AMA and the government-appointed Council on Graduate Medical Education have recommended that US medical schools maintain a near-steady supply of 16,000 new doctors a year, despite a population increase of 24 percent between 1980 and 2000. Now worried about a potential shortfall of physicians, the AMA says international medical graduates (IMGs) can help meet the needs of a growing and aging population, and has pledged to help speed up visas for foreign doctors.





But young doctors who obtain their medical degrees in India find it increasingly difficult to travel to the United States for advanced medical education unless they or a spouse already hold a green card that entitles them to permanent residence, or unless they agree to work in areas defined by the government as medically underserved.

Getting a visa for a two-to-five-year-long residency at a university or teaching hospital is only the first of several challenges facing Indian doctors seeking to work in the United States. In the 1960s and 70s, IMGs were heavily recruited to fulfill the Medicare program's promise of free medical care for every American over the age of 65. Today, Indian doctors must return to India after completing their advanced training unless they agree to set up practice in rural or low-income areas.

"IMG's play a vital role in areas with shortages," Ahmed Faheem, a Beckley, West Virginia psychiatrist originally from India, told a recent high-level AMA meeting. "If you don't ease off the visa requirements, then it's going to get worse."

For the Indian doctors who are allowed by US authorities to fill these less glamorous primary care jobs, there is still no guarantee they can make a livable income in an era of sky-high medical malpractice insurance and managed care schemes. And rural areas typically need more generalists than specialists, which makes it difficult for a heart surgeon or radiologist to earn a living outside of major cities.





Today, Indian doctors seeking admission to US residency training programs must first fly to either Singapore or Bangkok to take qualifying examinations not given in India. Next they must obtain a US visa to travel to Atlanta for a "clinical skills assessment" test before applying to any American university or teaching hospital's specialty course. Once accepted into a program, they can only receive a US visa back in India - a process that can cost upwards of $5,000 and take a year or more to complete.

"It was definitely much easier to come to the USA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's - before the cutback in visas," says Parag Mehta, an internist and attending physician, or teacher, at New York Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn. Mehta practiced medicine for seven years in his native state of Gujarat in India before coming to the New York with his wife, a green card holder and obstetrician. "Having a green card is now the most common ticket into the US medical system. I see it with my students every year."

Another challenge facing Indian doctors and others who are primary care, or family practice "generalists", is their lack of bargaining power with the big insurance companies and health maintenance organizations (HMOs) that cover more than 160 million Americans. Indian doctors, lead by the AAPI, say that reductions in doctorsfederal and state funds for health care have forced HMOs to hire fewer and cheaper doctors - and that HMOs are dumping competent foreign-born and foreign-educated doctors. .
"The quality of health care goes down when HMOs start to hire the cheapest people around," says Doctor Lakhanpal of AAPI. "That's why we need collective bargaining power at the state level."





After years of sitting on the political sidelines, Indian-Americans - affluent, educated and doubling in number every 10 years - are starting to flex their muscles in Washington. Indian physicians are lobbying at the state and federal level, quizzing presidential candidates, and working with the 167-member Indian Caucus - a group of US congresspeople friendly to India and Indian-Americans. The AAPI has a full-time legislative office in Washington that is pushing a nationwide limit on malpractice insurance premiums, collective bargaining with HMOs, a Patients' Bill of Rights law, and uniform medical licensing for all 50 states. The organization also fields complaints about professional discrimination, and was a driving forcing in passing the 1992 Anti-Discrimination in Medicine bill.

Despite the hurdles Indian doctors in the US may face, many remain committed to their calling. Organized by the AAPI, doctors and nurses of Indian origin have established free walk-in clinics across the US to treat senior citizens and patients who are indigent, lacking health insurance, or unable to see a physician during normal clinic hours.

"This country has been very nice to us," says the AAPI's Lakhanpal. "The weekend clinics are sort of our way of giving back to community."

Yet although Indian doctors have carved a comfortable niche in the American medical community, red tape and discrimination may slow their success and exacerbate a looming national health care crisis

Irony: Despite the contributions of 2 generations of Indian/Indian American physicians to the USA, only a few have made significant inroads into the American psyche, i.e., these physicians still fight an uphill battle (despite the wealth they have accumulated)

On the other hand, the IT industry has put Indians front and center in their parade....now Indian Institute of Technology is quickly mentioned routinely along the lines of MIT or CalTech....in such a short period time, Indian engineers, scientists, venture capitalists....have made significant positive inroads into the American psyche...with far less visibility (Indian doctors interface with the general population more than Indian engineers) and in far less time....rarely do you see Indian physicians (except CNN) featured as much Vinod Khosle or other IT giants.

Any thoughts?

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Irony: Despite the contributions of 2 generations of Indian/Indian American physicians to the USA, only a few have made significant inroads into the American psyche, i.e., these physicians still fight an uphill battle (despite the wealth they have accumulated)

On the other hand, the IT industry has put Indians front and center in their parade....now Indian Institute of Technology is quickly mentioned routinely along the lines of MIT or CalTech....in such a short period time, Indian engineers, scientists, venture capitalists....have made significant positive inroads into the American psyche...with far less visibility (Indian doctors interface with the general population more than Indian engineers) and in far less time....rarely do you see Indian physicians (except CNN) featured as much Vinod Khosle or other IT giants.

Any thoughts?

There are far less doctors than compared to engineers to make an impact. Secondly only those docs that are US citizens and have graduated from US medicals schools have the opportunity to make this strong impact.

Even though there are so many Indian docs in the USA, many of them are foreign borned, foreign trained...and this seems to be a substantial hinderance in the educational and research contributions in the USA. In addition, the number of accepted US citizen (indian origin) into US medical schools is around 20%. And it is from that 20% you get the "Sanjay Guptas" that make a strong impact into the American Psche.

Anyone agree/disagree?

 

[Premedtomed]

There are far less doctors than compared to engineers to make an impact. Secondly only those docs that are US citizens and have graduated from US medicals schools have the opportunity to make this strong impact.

Even though there are so many Indian docs in the USA, many of them are foreign borned, foreign trained...and this seems to be a substantial hinderance in the educational and research contributions in the USA. In addition, the number of accepted US citizen (indian origin) into US medical schools is around 20%. And it is from that 20% you get the "Sanjay Guptas" that make a strong impact into the American Psche.

Anyone agree/disagree?

I guess we are making progress (maybe slow) though.

 

[Northerner]

Irony: Despite the contributions of 2 generations of Indian/Indian American physicians to the USA, only a few have made significant inroads into the American psyche, i.e., these physicians still fight an uphill battle (despite the wealth they have accumulated)

On the other hand, the IT industry has put Indians front and center in their parade....now Indian Institute of Technology is quickly mentioned routinely along the lines of MIT or CalTech....in such a short period time, Indian engineers, scientists, venture capitalists....have made significant positive inroads into the American psyche...with far less visibility (Indian doctors interface with the general population more than Indian engineers) and in far less time....rarely do you see Indian physicians (except CNN) featured as much Vinod Khosle or other IT giants.

Any thoughts?

What exactly is it that you want? There are lots of indian physicians (or at least that's what people in this thread seem to be proclaiming) and they are plenty visible in the field. Do you feel indian physicians are treated differently than other physicians?

 

[dockdock]

Dockdock, your original posting illustrates a very real problem that too many people want to pretend doesn't exist.
You should take it as a credit that so many desi SDNers feel the need to vilify you for expressing your viewpoint.

Much thanks.

I also knew an Indian girl in college who wound up in Stanford med school...very soon after, during her 2nd year, she had a mental breakdown. Seems she was so strongly forced into this field by her parents that she just snapped.

She wound up in intensive psychiatric treatment for a year (my old roommate's wife was this girl's college roommate, so I have the inside info).

Ah well...

 

[Energon]

Irony: Despite the contributions of 2 generations of Indian/Indian American physicians to the USA, only a few have made significant inroads into the American psyche, i.e., these physicians still fight an uphill battle (despite the wealth they have accumulated)

On the other hand, the IT industry has put Indians front and center in their parade....now Indian Institute of Technology is quickly mentioned routinely along the lines of MIT or CalTech....in such a short period time, Indian engineers, scientists, venture capitalists....have made significant positive inroads into the American psyche...with far less visibility (Indian doctors interface with the general population more than Indian engineers) and in far less time....rarely do you see Indian physicians (except CNN) featured as much Vinod Khosle or other IT giants.

Any thoughts?

I think the American populace actually has high regards for Indian physicians (atleast here in the tri state area). As far as Indian physicians not being as high profile as their IT counterparts there are a few things to consider.

1. IT as a field is fairly new, and in many ways guys like Narayan Murthy, Nandan Nilekani etc are the trailblazers.

2. Also, a lot of the Indian physicians who have migrated here find it difficult to obtain high profile positions like Deans of medical schools etc being foreign graduates... that however does not mean they are not highly regarded for being good physicians.

3. Although not as much as IT, India is being talked about as a country where complex medical procedures can be sought.

4. As far as the comparison between Indian Medical institutions vs IIT is concerned, there are a few differences. Dont get me wrong, there are some great universities like AIIMS, KEM/GS seth etc etc that provide world class medical education; however, I feel they are a bit defficient when it comes to groundbreaking research. All in all I feel like the medical education system hasn't emotionally matured yet. Just take an insitution like TIFR for instance... just look at how conservative they are when it comes to research projects. I have 4 cousins (3 guys and one girl) who graduated from TIFR, all of them had to come to the US in order to pursue research. The sad thing is, they didn't have to leave because Indian institutions do not have the monetary funding or the lack of facilities... but rather because of the highly conservative/defeatist attitude held by senior faculty members.. who HAVE to sponsor PhD candidates. Unless this mentality changes, these institutions cannot reach their potential like the ones in South Korea or Singapore for instance.
It just so happens that all 4 of my cousins are going back (2 have already gone back)... it only when guys like them take over the educational scene will there be changes (if they opt to go into academia that is).

 

[Northerner]

I think the American populace actually has high regards for Indian physicians (atleast here in the tri state area). As far as Indian physicians not being as high profile as their IT counterparts there are a few things to consider.

1. IT as a field is fairly new, and in many ways guys like Narayan Murthy, Nandan Nilekani etc are the trailblazers.

2. Also, a lot of the Indian physicians who have migrated here find it difficult to obtain high profile positions like Deans of medical schools etc being foreign graduates... that however does not mean they are not highly regarded for being good physicians.

3. Although not as much as IT, India is being talked about as a country where complex medical procedures can be sought.

4. As far as the comparison between Indian Medical institutions vs IIT is concerned, there are a few differences. Dont get me wrong, there are some great universities like AIIMS, KEM/GS seth etc etc that provide world class medical education; however, I feel they are a bit defficient when it comes to groundbreaking research. All in all I feel like the medical education system hasn't emotionally matured yet. Just take an insitution like TIFR for instance... just look at how conservative they are when it comes to research projects. I have 4 cousins (3 guys and one girl) who graduated from TIFR, all of them had to come to the US in order to pursue research. The sad thing is, they didn't have to leave because Indian institutions do not have the monetary funding or the lack of facilities... but rather because of the highly conservative/defeatist attitude held by senior faculty members.. who HAVE to sponsor PhD candidates. Unless this mentality changes, these institutions cannot reach their potential like the ones in South Korea or Singapore for instance.
It just so happens that all 4 of my cousins are going back (2 have already gone back)... it only when guys like them take over the educational scene will there be changes (if they opt to go into academia that is).

Well put.

I would also like to add that I believe people do not view indian or indian-american physicians differently from any other race. They make look at foreign medical graduates differently, and may not identify well if their physician is a different race, but this theme is uniform across all races. In short, I think race is a very trivial category that is considered in anyone's opinion of physicians.

 

[KateChopin]

Wow, that scenario sounds kind of extreme, I don't know anyone who was really forced to med school. Well, I don't know many people in general I guess.

Anyway, I chose medicine because I really didn't like any of the other subjects. Yeah grammer and spelling iz dumm!

 

[dockdock]

Wow, that scenario sounds kind of extreme, I don't know anyone who was really forced to med school. Well, I don't know many people in general I guess.

No offense, then, but you don't have any basis to say this scenario is extreme. For example, I know nothing of how the Inuit suffer to survive in the Arctic and how they may truly need to kill baby seals in order to eat. So, if someone comes up to me and says, "Hey, y'know the Inuit club baby seals over the head and drink their blood," I'd say that's extreme and not normal, because when I'm hungy, I just go to Wendy's and order a value meal. But, I don't know any Inuit, so I can't say whether or not what they do is extreme.

 

[Premedtomed]

AMMD you are right about the defeatist mentality issue. But you also have to realize that research requires huge amounts of funding.
India needs to allow FDI in this sector as well.

Universities in India are expanding their network all across the world ( some of them) - the problem is that they don't have the alumni network system as Universities in the US do.

This makes a lot of difference. - There certainly are a lot of accomplished doctors from Indian Medical schools, but these schools need to establish a system whereby they can reap benefits - money, collaboration.

Also, Businesses (I think this is beginning to happen) are starting to collaborate with universities in the area of research and development.

Like you said, strong willed and hard working people are required to turn things around.

( uttar pahije (Maharashtrian, right? me Gujju ))

 

[positivity]

I agree with you. Quite a bit of the Indian premeds I have met also are in it for the money as well. I find that as a group they tend to cheat more as well. I am not saying that the other American students did not cheat, however I found it quite odd that all the Indians would be sitting together and whispering during exams. I have also dealt with complaints from other American students who have witnessed cheating among them as well. They also have the audacity to brag about cheating as well. Thankfully, in cases where they have been caught they have been suspended. However, I feel that Asians are no smarter than whites, hispanics or blacks. The fact of the matter is your education depends on how much time that you spend on it.

Holy @*!$$ you did not just say indian people tend to cheat more did you???? do you know where you are?? On the indian page!! go away you jealous brown hater!

 

[Northerner]

Holy @*!$$ you did not just say indian people tend to cheat more did you???? do you know where you are?? On the indian page!! go away you jealous brown hater!

Jealous of what? While it's stupid for a person to say "indians tend to cheat more" based solely on their own observations, it's just as stupid to imply they came to that conclusion out of jealousy for being....indian?

 

[jocg27]

Compared to many other races in the United States. That goes to say even, that Indians in the United States as a whole tend to be more intelligent than Indians in India when the whole country is grouped together. Here are just a few reasons I can think of as to why 2nd generation Indo-Americans are mostly intelligent. Please keep in mind that these are general trends...

- Parents are often well-to-do when they come to the US as immigrants, so they are able to afford their children the best opportunities.
- Parents highly value education, stick-to-it-ness, careers with high prestige, stability and pay. Therefore, this requires children to stay in school for longer periods of time. More school = more education
- The Indian community as a whole resultingly values the same ideas and adds pressure by continually asking what you're doing with your life as you're growing up. (This could be thought of as good or bad depending on how you want to look at it.) This also creates a culture of high education.
- Whether we want to admit it or not, Indian people tend to be more competitive/want to do better than the pack. This also leads to the need of always trying to do more. Since we already tend to excel in education, it continually gets pushed to another level.

I could go on but I hope this illustrates my point. I'm not saying that other races don't have these characteristics... my opinion is that it's just not as prevalent for them. I also realize that it may sound racist to some to generalize characteristics of races, but as long as there are different cultures out there and a lack of full assimilation, you're going to see certain characteristics associated with certain races.

I believe that this is entirely the result of the sample at hand which is, much more than we generally realize, selected by the United States government. The great majority of Indian, as well as a great deal of other Asian, immigration to this country has occurred since 1965. Among several important pieces of legislation to be signed that year was LBJ's INS act, which introduced immigration on the basis of professional experience and education.

Think about this a second...That means that out of entire Asian nations, some of the largest countries in the world, with people both good and bad, smart and dumb, hardworking and lazy, the great bulk of immigrants to the United States have been educated professionals. Of course their children will succeed - the children of educated professionals of any race generally become educated professionals. So when these children succeed, it's ludicrous to say that it's because Indians are smarter or harder working.

Every culture has an educated elite of doctors, engineers, lawyers, you name it (but law and politics are slightly different in this regard because expertise in these fields in one's old country does not translate as well to qualifications in a new country.) The immigration of every culture in the world to the United States is also very colored by current events and perceptions of each other on both sides.

Just to take another frame of reference and look it from a different angle, Mexican immigration to this country is largely poor, coming for a chance at jobs, and is largely from the northern, desert part of Mexico. From this, what we see, we make generalizations about the entire huge and diverse nation of Mexico, from working habits, to appearance, to what they eat (our idea of Mexican food is quite colored by where in Mexico immigrants here came from). But Mexico is a huge place. Not India-huge, maybe, but huge. There is a unique history, and a diverse population that ranges from dirt poor to quite wealthy. Clearly there are doctors and engineers in Mexico. Don't you suppose that if US immigration policy was such that the educated were havily favored and there was no way for the poorer classes to gain entry by hopping a border (ie, the poor underclasses of India), then we would within a generation begin to assume that all Mexican families value education and children are pressured to become doctors?

Cubans are an example of this. Cubans, despite being a Latino group, are not underrepresented in medicine - like Asians, Indians, and Jews, there is in fact a larger proportion of Cuban doctors than their proportion of the population. Why is this? Because of immigration patterns and regulations - many Cubans in this country arrived after the 1959 revolution and due to Cold War politics, were welcomed by the US government with open arms and specific immigration benefits. After a communist revolution, the people clamoring to leave the country were not the farming masses - the single largest surge of immigration from this country was predominantly doctors, lawyers, and engineers. So their children largely became educated doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Of all Latino groups in this country they, on average, make the most money, intermarry with Americans the most, have the highest rate of business ownership, are the most Republican, are the most proficient in English, and achieve the highest levels of education. Like Asians and Indians, it's been said that Cubans are an 'immigrant success story,' and a 'model minority.' This is not related to ethnicity or anything like it - it's individual, not cultural, as much as Cubans, Indians, or Asians might pat themselves on their back for their inherent talent or love of scholarship. It's a product of the pre-selected sample of immigrants who came to this country. As the make-up of Cuban immigrants has changed through the decades, and Cubans come for more economic and less political reasons, more on homemade rafts to get a job and food than on planes to New York, Florida, and Chicago to escape communism, these differences have decreased, and the group of Cuban immigrants in America as a whole has become much more internally diverse, much the same as would happen if people from all socioeconomic groups in India began to immigrate to America.

I just think it's important to keep things like this in mind. Our perceptions are colored by what we see. Maybe the Indians we see are hardworking and come from families driven to succed. If you take a step back though, maybe it has more to do with political coincidences, the flow of current events, and idiosynchracies of history than it does with whether Indians are smarter than anyone else.

Just what I believe...Any thoughts?

(edited -- forgot something)

 

[Northerner]

I believe that this is entirely the result of the sample at hand which is, much more than we generally realize, selected by the United States government. The great majority of Indian, as well as a great deal of other Asian, immigration to this country has occurred since 1965. Among several important pieces of legislation to be signed that year was LBJ's INS act, which introduced immigration on the basis of professional experience and education.

Think about this a second...That means that out of entire Asian nations, some of the largest countries in the world, with people both good and bad, smart and dumb, hardworking and lazy, the great bulk of immigrants to the United States have been educated professionals. Of course their children will succeed - the children of educated professionals of any race generally become educated professionals. So when these children succeed, it's ludicrous to say that it's because Indians are smarter or harder working.

Every culture has an educated elite of doctors, engineers, lawyers, you name it (but law and politics are slightly different in this regard because expertise in these fields in one's old country does not translate as well to qualifications in a new country.) The immigration of every culture in the world to the United States is also very colored by current events and perceptions of each other on both sides.

Just to take another frame of reference and look it from a different angle, Mexican immigration to this country is largely poor, coming for a chance at jobs, and is largely from the northern, desert part of Mexico. From this, what we see, we make generalizations about the entire huge and diverse nation of Mexico, from working habits, to appearance, to what they eat (our idea of Mexican food is quite colored by where in Mexico immigrants here came from). But Mexico is a huge place. Not India-huge, maybe, but huge. There is a unique history, and a diverse population that ranges from dirt poor to quite wealthy. Clearly there are doctors and engineers in Mexico. Don't you suppose that if US immigration policy was such that the educated were havily favored and there was no way for the poorer classes to gain entry by hopping a border (ie, the poor underclasses of India), then we would within a generation begin to assume that all Mexican families value education and children are pressured to become doctors?

Cubans are an example of this. Cubans, despite being a Latino group, are not underrepresented in medicine - like Asians, Indians, and Jews, there is in fact a larger proportion of Cuban doctors than their proportion of the population. Why is this? Because of immigration patterns and regulations - many Cubans in this country arrived after the 1959 revolution and due to Cold War politics, were welcomed by the US government with open arms and specific immigration benefits. After a communist revolution, the people clamoring to leave the country were not the farming masses - the single largest surge of immigration from this country was predominantly doctors, lawyers, and engineers. So their children largely became educated doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Of all Latino groups in this country they, on average, make the most money, intermarry with Americans the most, have the highest rate of business ownership, are the most Republican, are the most proficient in English, and achieve the highest levels of education. Like Asians and Indians, it's been said that Cubans are an 'immigrant success story,' and a 'model minority.' This is not related to ethnicity or anything like it - it's individual, not cultural, as much as Cubans, Indians, or Asians might pat themselves on their back for their inherent talent or love of scholarship. It's a product of the pre-selected sample of immigrants who came to this country. As the make-up of Cuban immigrants has changed through the decades, and Cubans come for more economic and less political reasons, more on homemade rafts to get a job and food than on planes to New York, Florida, and Chicago to escape communism, these differences have decreased, and the group of Cuban immigrants in America as a whole has become much more internally diverse, much the same as would happen if people from all socioeconomic groups in India began to immigrate to America.

I just think it's important to keep things like this in mind. Our perceptions are colored by what we see. Maybe the Indians we see are hardworking and come from families driven to succed. If you take a step back though, maybe it has more to do with political coincidences, the flow of current events, and idiosynchracies of history than it does with whether Indians are smarter than anyone else.

Just what I believe...Any thoughts?

(edited -- forgot something)

While my knowledge of immigration law and politics is less-than stellar, it sounded like a convincing explanation, and I'm inclined to agree with your take on it.

 

[positivity]

Jealous of what? While it's stupid for a person to say "indians tend to cheat more" based solely on their own observations, it's just as stupid to imply they came to that conclusion out of jealousy for being....indian?

Well personally I think the first observation is stupider, but that's just me. No worries mate - u seem a bit highly strung, go get a drink

 

[Premedtomed]

Well personally I think the first observation is stupider, but that's just me. No worries mate - u seem a bit highly strung, go get a drink

 

[Northerner]

Well personally I think the first observation is stupider, but that's just me. No worries mate - u seem a bit highly strung, go get a drink

As long as you're aware and agree that people are not jealous of indians for being indian, your opinion's fine and dandy. Of course, the point was that both contentions were pretty stupid.

Thanks for the advice. Maybe we should all be getting drinks instead of standing up for racial equality. Pretty funny to be called "highly strung" by a person who just previously posted:

Holy @*!$$ you did not just say indian people tend to cheat more did you???? do you know where you are?? On the indian page!! go away you jealous brown hater!

I could tell you to lighten up, but in my opinion you are totally justified in being outraged by someone who tries to paint indian people as typically cheaters.

 

[kapil_MD]

I'll take the bait and take offense for him.

Indians are not any more of an "extremely intelligent bunch" than any other ethnicity. Moreover, they do not deserve a medical career by virtue of their religion, and are not any more "intelligent, hardworking, and diligent" as any other ethnicity. America is supposed to be about assuming people are equally capable across superficial categories like race.

....And what was that BS about someone not being bright enough for self-awareness, but can still get a career as a physician just because of their "community"?! Those are exactly the people admissions committees are trying to weed out.

Indians are considerably intelligent, and that shows because the majority of the indians in the states are scientists, engineers, business owners and of course doctors. Oh, and we have the highest average annual income of all minorities, about (70,000) Indians are HARD WORKING - we will do anything to succeed and prosper and ulitmately achieve our goal - unlike many of the fat-lazy americans I know and see.

I've been to India many times (ALL my family besides my parents and sister are there.) I know guys there that work scut jobs, are poor, but could easily cruise through MIT or Harvard-but just don't have the finances. The point I'm trying to get at is that we're hard working, and wiling to make sacrifices to accomplish our goal.

Most americans here don't have a clue about how lucky they have it here: the potential to make money, to do what you want, freedom, lifestyle. Indians know that because of the hardships they went through living in India.

I'm making the most of my medical education here, and will be practicing in the USA when finish med school.

So keep your snide remarks to yourself, you'll do everyone some good.

 

[Northerner]

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I'm 18 and currently a sophomore in college pursuing my undergrad degree in biology. I'm on a full presidential scholarship with a 4.0 gpa. I'm originally from andhra and my dad is a doctor here in the USA.
now...

Indians are considerably intelligent, and that shows because the majority of the indians in the states are scientists, engineers, business owners and of course doctors. Oh, and we have the highest average annual income of all minorities, about (70,000) Indians are HARD WORKING - we will do anything to succeed and prosper and ulitmately achieve our goal - unlike many of the fat-lazy americans I know and see.

I've been to India many times (ALL my family besides my parents and sister are there.) I know guys there that work scut jobs, are poor, but could easily cruise through MIT or Harvard-but just don't have the finances. The point I'm trying to get at is that we're hard working, and wiling to make sacrifices to accomplish our goal.

Most americans here don't have a clue about how lucky they have it here: the potential to make money, to do what you want, freedom, lifestyle. Indians know that because of the hardships they went through living in India.

I'm making the most of my medical education here, and will be practicing in the USA when finish med school.

So keep your snide remarks to yourself, you'll do everyone some good.

You're racist, and there is no excuse for that. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Since I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match with a 18 year old college student, you are welcome to PM me if you honestly do not understand why it's inappropriate to claim racial superiority in America and I would be happy to give you my interpretation of it.

 

[kapil_MD]

You're racist, and there is no excuse for that. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Since I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match with a 18 year old college student, you are welcome to PM me if you honestly do not understand why it's inappropriate to claim racial superiority in America and I would be happy to give you my interpretation of it.

me racist? give me a break. I've seen racism in the face throughout my life-it isn't preety, especially after 9/11. I'm indian man, I'm in no position to be racist to anyone here, even more so If I'm doing medicine. I don't think I'm "superior" to any one, but I do think that indians in general work harder than others- atleast from what I've seen.

I Never said indians are better then whites as a people. Don't know where you go that from.

I'm not claiming racial superiority, you said indians aren't hard working - I disagree. I've seen how much work they do to come to the states - I don't see this as much in other ethnicities...thats all.

 

[Northerner]

I Never said indians are better then whites as a people. Don't know where you go that from.

Actually, I never accused you of specifying "whites" as being inferior. In fact, that's the point. You pretty much just threw out a blanket statement that indians were harder working and more intelligent than "others" (ethnicities). That's called a superiority complex. Specifically,

Indians are HARD WORKING - we will do anything to succeed and prosper and ulitmately achieve our goal - unlike many of the fat-lazy americans I know and see.

Most americans here don't have a clue about how lucky they have it here: the potential to make money, to do what you want, freedom, lifestyle.

Maybe you should specify whether you are talking about race or nationality. Nationality is another issue - if you think Americans are lazier than people from India, for example, while it's still a bit of an offensive generalization, at least it's not racist since "American" refers to many different races, including indian. That is merely a reference to geography and access to resources. However, it sounds like you're talking about race/ethnicity.

I'm not claiming racial superiority, you said indians aren't hard working - I disagree. I've seen how much work they do to come to the states - I don't see this as much in other ethnicities...thats all.

Wrong - I never said indians aren't hard working. I said indians aren't MORE hard-working or intelligent than any other ethnicity. In fact, I would say in general the indian people I know are hard-working and intelligent, but I can't say that therefore indian people are smarter and harder working than black people, or hispanic people, or white people, or asian people.

We have fought very hard in this country to give every ethnicity equal rights and equal footing in America because we believe that a superficial category such as skin color or race is not a legitimate way to stratify society. When you take such stratification to a practical application, it's called prejudice. So "indians are more intelligent than other ethnicities" becomes "we should hire this man because his last name is Patel instead of this man because his last name is Jackson, after all, indians are more intelligent than other ethnicities". I think we would all agree that such a thing is ridiculous. So is the original contention. I do respect the fact that you admit it's only your experience and your perspective, however, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[dockdock]

Indians are considerably intelligent, and that shows because the majority of the indians in the states are scientists, engineers, business owners and of course doctors. Oh, and we have the highest average annual income of all minorities, about (70,000) Indians are HARD WORKING - we will do anything to succeed and prosper and ulitmately achieve our goal - unlike many of the fat-lazy americans I know and see.

I've been to India many times (ALL my family besides my parents and sister are there.) I know guys there that work scut jobs, are poor, but could easily cruise through MIT or Harvard-but just don't have the finances. The point I'm trying to get at is that we're hard working, and wiling to make sacrifices to accomplish our goal.

Most americans here don't have a clue about how lucky they have it here: the potential to make money, to do what you want, freedom, lifestyle. Indians know that because of the hardships they went through living in India.

I'm making the most of my medical education here, and will be practicing in the USA when finish med school.

So keep your snide remarks to yourself, you'll do everyone some good.

This is a remarkable quote. There is no argument here: your statement implies that Indians genetically are more intelligent than other races.

You "claim" that you're in medical education. I don't believe you. At least, I sincerely doubt that you are in med school in the USA.

Perhaps you're one of those Indians who is just not sharp enough to get into med school in the USA, so you used the India loophole to get into med school in India, claiming the admissions process in America is unfair.

I assume you're not in med school here in the USA because you're obviously not well-versed in genetics. No race of human is genetically superior to another race. Period. There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Africans; there are just as many genius Caucasians as there are genius Asians.

There is a very simple explanation as to why Indians in America are employed in medicine, engineering, tech, etc. India is a long distance from America--there is no unpatrolled border for the destitute to wander over (i.e. with Mexico). In the past, American business was very eager to hire Indian science professionals, because they were a good source of relatively low-maintenece workers. So, the immigrants coming over from India were the ones in India who had professional educations. Such was the case with China and Japan as well. My guess is that you'd have the audacity to claim that Chinese and Japanese people are genetic human-calculators, because engineering labs in the USA are teeming with Asians.

Anyway, best of luck, noble doctor!

(BTW I'm of Indian descent, and I go back to India nearly every year)

 

[drjustdoit]

This is a remarkable quote. There is no argument here: your statement implies that Indians genetically are more intelligent than other races.

I assume you're not in med school here in the USA because you're obviously not well-versed in genetics. No race of human is genetically superior to another race. Period. There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Africans; there are just as many genius Caucasians as there are genius Asians.

There is a very simple explanation as to why Indians in America are employed in medicine, engineering, tech, etc. India is a long distance from America--there is no unpatrolled border for the destitute to wander over (i.e. with Mexico). In the past, American business was very eager to hire Indian science professionals, because they were a good source of relatively low-maintenece workers. So, the immigrants coming over from India were the ones in India who had professional educations. Such was the case with China and Japan as well. My guess is that you'd have the audacity to claim that Chinese and Japanese people are genetic human-calculators, because engineering labs in the USA are teeming with Asians.

(BTW I'm of Indian descent, and I go back to India nearly every year)

It Should be "There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Americans" It just feels like your Indian descent just got overshadowed by crap n money US gives you

As far as hiring an Indian Professional goes the Reason behind is Indians are more hard working, dedicated and efficient.
Ever heard of term ”Euphenics”. Google it Envoirment and upbringing does matter.
Indians are brought up in an Envoirment where they know importance of hard work and why human is so special for-their “Brain”
A US kid on the other hand in his late teens has two things in his mind “Sex and Money” and gets both of them due to same mentality of fellow people and fact US has more money to offer for less work.
Fact Check it up-US Pizza Delivery guy in a shift earns more then an Indian Doctor burning his -$$ in any Govt hospital of India..
Parents know what’s good for their child. Its good as for Indian Parents to push their child into something they believe would be good, rather than to just abandon them when they are in their teens. As a result kid has to do something to support him. He works as a Pizza Delivery guy and makes a lot of money. That US raised kid spends hours in Gym to strengthen his Muscles (nt increases ne ) so that he looks great in-order to have a better Companion for Sex. He is fun with money and Sex, which he likes the most.
He thinks what’s the point in working like an ass, Working hard, studying, and burning midnight Oil etc. He already has everything..
Some US kids work damn hard and make it big. They utilize Opportunities their Govt is giving them the Harvard’s and Hopkins giving them the best education and technology, which one can offer.(Try to be a Physics major here in india on your own you will feel the diff)
Ever heard of Term “Brain drain” dear? US of A takes away the best bcoz it has money to offer and research work, which eventually India has been not, left with. India a “Golden bird” never heard of it?? Instead you must have heard “Golden Globe” Try n GOOGLE it.
I totally respect Immigrant of Indian Origin giving his services there as what he is doing is. he still uses his brain. He know he will be benefited the most monetary and academically. Who knows even I land there.
Don’t insult Indians as by calling them “relatively low-maintenece workers”. They are more than that. "No race is inferior but Indians are to dominate"
Respect it.Be proud to be an Indian.I am

 

[jocg27]

It Should be "There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Americans" It just feels like your Indian descent just got overshadowed by crap n money US gives you

As far as hiring an Indian Professional goes the Reason behind is Indians are more hard working, dedicated and efficient.
Ever heard of term ”Euphenics”. Google it Envoirment and upbringing does matter.
Indians are brought up in an Envoirment where they know importance of hard work and why human is so special for-their “Brain”
A US kid on the other hand in his late teens has two things in his mind “Sex and Money” and gets both of them due to same mentality of fellow people and fact US has more money to offer for less work.
Fact Check it up-US Pizza Delivery guy in a shift earns more then an Indian Doctor burning his -$$ in any Govt hospital of India..
Parents know what’s good for their child. Its good as for Indian Parents to push their child into something they believe would be good, rather than to just abandon them when they are in their teens. As a result kid has to do something to support him. He works as a Pizza Delivery guy and makes a lot of money. That US raised kid spends hours in Gym to strengthen his Muscles (nt increases ne ) so that he looks great in-order to have a better Companion for Sex. He is fun with money and Sex, which he likes the most.
He thinks what’s the point in working like an ass, Working hard, studying, and burning midnight Oil etc. He already has everything..
Some US kids work damn hard and make it big. They utilize Opportunities their Govt is giving them the Harvard’s and Hopkins giving them the best education and technology, which one can offer.(Try to be a Physics major here in india on your own you will feel the diff)
Ever heard of Term “Brain drain” dear? US of A takes away the best bcoz it has money to offer and research work, which eventually India has been not, left with. India a “Golden bird” never heard of it?? Instead you must have heard “Golden Globe” Try n GOOGLE it.
I totally respect Immigrant of Indian Origin giving his services there as what he is doing is. he still uses his brain. He know he will be benefited the most monetary and academically. Who knows even I land there.
Don’t insult Indians as by calling them “relatively low-maintenece workers”. They are more than that. "No race is inferior but Indians are to dominate"
Respect it.Be proud to be an Indian.I am

I promise you there are plenty of lazy Indian teenagers, and also many who think about sex.

This is the one of the most b.s. posts I've ever read.

 

[Northerner]

It Should be "There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Americans" It just feels like your Indian descent just got overshadowed by crap n money US gives you

As far as hiring an Indian Professional goes the Reason behind is Indians are more hard working, dedicated and efficient.
Ever heard of term ”Euphenics”. Google it Envoirment and upbringing does matter.
Indians are brought up in an Envoirment where they know importance of hard work and why human is so special for-their “Brain”
A US kid on the other hand in his late teens has two things in his mind “Sex and Money” and gets both of them due to same mentality of fellow people and fact US has more money to offer for less work.
Fact Check it up-US Pizza Delivery guy in a shift earns more then an Indian Doctor burning his -$$ in any Govt hospital of India..
Parents know what’s good for their child. Its good as for Indian Parents to push their child into something they believe would be good, rather than to just abandon them when they are in their teens. As a result kid has to do something to support him. He works as a Pizza Delivery guy and makes a lot of money. That US raised kid spends hours in Gym to strengthen his Muscles (nt increases ne ) so that he looks great in-order to have a better Companion for Sex. He is fun with money and Sex, which he likes the most.
He thinks what’s the point in working like an ass, Working hard, studying, and burning midnight Oil etc. He already has everything..
Some US kids work damn hard and make it big. They utilize Opportunities their Govt is giving them the Harvard’s and Hopkins giving them the best education and technology, which one can offer.(Try to be a Physics major here in india on your own you will feel the diff)
Ever heard of Term “Brain drain” dear? US of A takes away the best bcoz it has money to offer and research work, which eventually India has been not, left with. India a “Golden bird” never heard of it?? Instead you must have heard “Golden Globe” Try n GOOGLE it.
I totally respect Immigrant of Indian Origin giving his services there as what he is doing is. he still uses his brain. He know he will be benefited the most monetary and academically. Who knows even I land there.
Don’t insult Indians as by calling them “relatively low-maintenece workers”. They are more than that. "No race is inferior but Indians are to dominate"
Respect it.Be proud to be an Indian.I am

Hopefully this is a joke, no one can possibly be this stupid.

 

[drjustdoit]

Just like a possible u Can do is to say"Go Get drown with a couple of beer"
But it is a thought"Everything is not a joke and entairtanment...

 

[jocg27]

Just like a possible u Can do is to say"Go Get drown with a couple of beer"
But it is a thought"Everything is not a joke and entairtanment...

profound

 

[BDS-DMD]

Drjustdoit or what ever your name is, are you ok? Just what was the point you were making?

I am just grateful to the US for giving me the opportunity to come here after my BDS in India and get a DMD from one of the top Ivy League schools with just 2 years of education and tuition.

In India, you cannot even go to another state most of the times to study!

 

[kapil_MD]

This is a remarkable quote. There is no argument here: your statement implies that Indians genetically are more intelligent than other races.

You "claim" that you're in medical education. I don't believe you. At least, I sincerely doubt that you are in med school in the USA.

Perhaps you're one of those Indians who is just not sharp enough to get into med school in the USA, so you used the India loophole to get into med school in India, claiming the admissions process in America is unfair.

I assume you're not in med school here in the USA because you're obviously not well-versed in genetics. No race of human is genetically superior to another race. Period. There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Africans; there are just as many genius Caucasians as there are genius Asians.

There is a very simple explanation as to why Indians in America are employed in medicine, engineering, tech, etc. India is a long distance from America--there is no unpatrolled border for the destitute to wander over (i.e. with Mexico). In the past, American business was very eager to hire Indian science professionals, because they were a good source of relatively low-maintenece workers. So, the immigrants coming over from India were the ones in India who had professional educations. Such was the case with China and Japan as well. My guess is that you'd have the audacity to claim that Chinese and Japanese people are genetic human-calculators, because engineering labs in the USA are teeming with Asians.

Anyway, best of luck, noble doctor!

(BTW I'm of Indian descent, and I go back to India nearly every year)

I'm not in med school, I'm a sophomore biology major, 4.0, presidential scholar. I think I'm sharp enough thank you. More then likely I'm "sharper" then you. My dad is a doctor, and I know very well of the commitment and work that it takes to make it. I'm taking genetics this semester. Who the hell are you to doubt my achievements and hard work.

My statement DID NOT have anything to do with genetics, I did not imply that at all - you're the one who mentioned it.

dockdock, your theory about immigration is quite inadequate - please explain why medicine is so sought after in india and why many indian families push their kids into it. Immigration is only part of the reason. This is more of a lifestyle thing, the conditions in india are difficult to say the least, and most indians have to work hard their to make a some what decent living, it's this work ethic proliferates through the society their, kind of like survival of the fittest. Here in the states it's a lot more confortable, it's easier to not work too hard and still make a good living.

All my family lives in india (except my immediate family). I went their last summer, and it was eye-opening experience - I really wanted to help people, I couldn't stand seeing the poverty and condition of the people there. One day I saw this guy completely crippled crawling on the floor with a cup in his hand, almost everyone ignored him - I gave him the 500 RS note I had in my pocket. It's $11, no big deal - And I saw the happiness in his face......I couldn't cure his condition...and I felt totally helpless....but at least he could eat for a while. I felt great afterwards, but wanted to do more. I want to build a hospital, to help these people....it's just made my ambition to become a doctor stronger. I want to help the underserved. In the states, and in other countries, especially india.

So you see, I have goals and want to the best physician I can, to help my patients, regardless of salary.


I'm surprised that you as an Indian don't really stand up for your people, looks you're happy to put them down, or just don't plain give a crap.

And northerner, I never meant to claim superiority, I just got mad when you said indians didn't work hard - I misunderstood. And you're right, I'm talking in terms of nationality and resources/life style - not race- I'm speaking about living conditions, economic conditions, family influence etc, and how that can make people from certain countries say work harder then others - not simply from race.

 

[thupham]

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

ITA w/this post

 

[thupham]

It Should be "There are just as many stupid Indians as there are stupid Americans" It just feels like your Indian descent just got overshadowed by crap n money US gives you

As far as hiring an Indian Professional goes the Reason behind is Indians are more hard working, dedicated and efficient.
Ever heard of term ”Euphenics”. Google it Envoirment and upbringing does matter.
Indians are brought up in an Envoirment where they know importance of hard work and why human is so special for-their “Brain”
A US kid on the other hand in his late teens has two things in his mind “Sex and Money” and gets both of them due to same mentality of fellow people and fact US has more money to offer for less work.
Fact Check it up-US Pizza Delivery guy in a shift earns more then an Indian Doctor burning his -$$ in any Govt hospital of India..
Parents know what’s good for their child. Its good as for Indian Parents to push their child into something they believe would be good, rather than to just abandon them when they are in their teens. As a result kid has to do something to support him. He works as a Pizza Delivery guy and makes a lot of money. That US raised kid spends hours in Gym to strengthen his Muscles (nt increases ne ) so that he looks great in-order to have a better Companion for Sex. He is fun with money and Sex, which he likes the most.
He thinks what’s the point in working like an ass, Working hard, studying, and burning midnight Oil etc. He already has everything..
Some US kids work damn hard and make it big. They utilize Opportunities their Govt is giving them the Harvard’s and Hopkins giving them the best education and technology, which one can offer.(Try to be a Physics major here in india on your own you will feel the diff)
Ever heard of Term “Brain drain” dear? US of A takes away the best bcoz it has money to offer and research work, which eventually India has been not, left with. India a “Golden bird” never heard of it?? Instead you must have heard “Golden Globe” Try n GOOGLE it.
I totally respect Immigrant of Indian Origin giving his services there as what he is doing is. he still uses his brain. He know he will be benefited the most monetary and academically. Who knows even I land there.
Don’t insult Indians as by calling them “relatively low-maintenece workers”. They are more than that. "No race is inferior but Indians are to dominate"
Respect it.Be proud to be an Indian.I am

Your argument is extremely flawed, to say the least:
I went to community college for 3 years, got a 4.0 GPA and transfered to Stanford. I worked two part time jobs while going to the CC. When I was living in the residence halls this summer I met this FOB from India who actually goes to Smith College. She never attended classes, and her parents pay lots of $$$$ for her housing and tuition. She hasn't worked a job in her life. When we would talk about schools she'd ask me which colleges I applied to...and I said "just the four UCs (Berkeley, LA, SD, Irvine) and then I was like "oh wait...I didn't have the opportunity to go to the college or live in the dorms after high school." This FOB didn't know about the BJP in gujurat, or about menaka gandhi. So I just described a lazy fob, NOT majoring in the sciences. Hmmm...where's the genetics or the environmental influence when yah need 'em?


when you say "all americans think about is sex" that cracks me up. my fob cousin would come to gatherings telling aunties about going to strip clubs...and what he did with his white girlfriend (also very unattractive).
If you think a particular group is "oversexed," then you're wrong. You don't know how many "oversexed" FOBS I have met, not to mention some oversexed desi american guys, and various other races....

yeah my parents pretty much treated me like **** and told me i was stupid when i was in high school. And I've been told "look, FOBS are so hardworking, unlike these 'NRI flunkies.' Some passing comments include one about this FOB girl who did her B.sc in India but came here and went to CSULB for 2 years, took the MCAT and got into medical school. The emphasis on my parents' part was on the "2 years," but really, this girl already had her bachelors degree and had to do 3 years of extra colleg ehere.

Any type of racism is detrimental. So, do you think that those black and hispanic children who are basically denied opportunies from age 2 years, and made to work menial jobs to support family are dumb and oversexed? If Indians are genetically superior and groomed to perfection, how do you explain the female infanticide that occurs lowering the sex ratio in some parts of punjab to 800:1000? How do you explain the fact that AIDS is growing at an exponential rate (higher than that of South Africa) in India, and that little 8 year old girls are raped by HIV infected men b/c they think it's a cure for AIDS? It's those wonderful genes and perfect environment!

And by the way it probably sounds like I don't like FOBS in this post, or that I have described that as unattractive. Well I have also had some positive experiences with intelligent attractive FOBS. I just needed to highlight the negative ones for the counterpoint.

 

[Sanman]

Well,
This is a heated thread. First things first. To the OP, I think you are bringing up a good point and one that is not often spoken about. Though many indians acknowledge it goes on in more subtle ways. I have personally felt pressure, both implicitly and explicitly about med school. I have seen a friend nearly destroyed by it. It is a problem.

Second, as to whether indian americans are smarter than average, I believe the answer to be yes. Why? For the same reasons others have mentioned. The majority of asian immigration occurred in the 1960's and '70's. Most who came over were fairly affluent professionals. Thus a higher IQ pool than average. The same could be said of a sampled group of white Americans that was composed largely of professionals. It is a question of Asians being a self selecting group. There is a similar suggestion in sociological circles for African Americans and athletic ability. On average we may be all the same. However, the descendants of a group in which the intelligent were killed and the physically gifted forced to procreate in greater numbers causes self selection. This will correct itself to the average as generations go by.

Indians as a cultural group do tend to look at education as more important than some other groups and sacrifice more for it. Do they sacrifice too much and let it control their lives? perhaps. Do all indians peize education? No, self selecting cultures of professionals do. As does the indian educaion system which inherently causes greater competition and less cooperation.

All cultures have good and bad. I am prooud to be an Indian, but that does not mean I will not address the faults of my culture and well as the gifts it has offered me.

 

[Energon]

AMMD you are right about the defeatist mentality issue. But you also have to realize that research requires huge amounts of funding.
India needs to allow FDI in this sector as well.

Universities in India are expanding their network all across the world ( some of them) - the problem is that they don't have the alumni network system as Universities in the US do.

This makes a lot of difference. - There certainly are a lot of accomplished doctors from Indian Medical schools, but these schools need to establish a system whereby they can reap benefits - money, collaboration.

Also, Businesses (I think this is beginning to happen) are starting to collaborate with universities in the area of research and development.

Like you said, strong willed and hard working people are required to turn things around.

( uttar pahije (Maharashtrian, right? me Gujju ))

The primary reason for this "defeatist" attitude is because most, if not all universities in India run on a socialist model (just like the governement ). This system is highly uneffective if not counterproductive for the development of the medical sciences in India.
Partnership between the private sector and the public-sector-backed educational institutions is a fairly new thing.
Believe it or not, the limited funds/ cash capital is not the problem here. The reasons I say this is because
1. There are ample funds available for higher education institutions.
2. The most expensive part of medical/scientific research is very very cheap. i.e human labor. There are a LOT of highly qualified and intelligent graduate students at the disposal of the faculty who work for very little or nothing.
3. Now that the markets are liberalized, there is no need for heavy monetary duties to be paid on high grthership; which btw is why the IT sector is booming. Its the scores of people who have gone back from the west and set up shop who have made the real difference.

Lastly, atleast for the medical sciences to really boom, we first have to accomplish basic public health goals. It is almost ridiculous to think that there will be labs developing the new age stem cell based therapies when people outside the door are dying of uncontrolled tuberculosis. The good news is that currently there is a really aggressive campaign on all of the basic communicable diseases and progress is being made.

 

[Energon]

double post... and I cant seem to delete it

 

[Energon]

Well put.

I would also like to add that I believe people do not view indian or indian-american physicians differently from any other race. They make look at foreign medical graduates differently, and may not identify well if their physician is a different race, but this theme is uniform across all races. In short, I think race is a very trivial category that is considered in anyone's opinion of physicians.

Unfortunately people do get judged by race whether they like it or not. I don't think this is only limited to the USA but rather the world over, IMHO it is human nature to do so.
Also, one of the reasons for this is statistics. Apparently some 35% of physicians practicing in the United States are of Indian origin (this is a figure that has been thrown around a lot including on TV news programs, but I myself haven't found any publication of it yet). Nonetheless, a large number of physicians are brownines, and I guess patients are bound to notice it and make comments; I don't think this is racism in any way though.

 

[Shrami]

Indians hardworking? Perhaps. But character-wise, many leave a lot to be desired. I once took a science course with an Indian professor who frequently took to ignoring me in favor of white classmates. I dropped the class then signed up for it again and got ANOTHER Indian professor, who treated me (and another black classmate) only shabbily.

I have since stopped seeing these as isolated incidence as it seems to be a pattern...just my two cents.

 

[Energon]

Indians hardworking? Perhaps. But character-wise, many leave a lot to be desired. I once took a science course with an Indian professor who frequently took to ignoring me in favor of white classmates. I dropped the class then signed up for it again and got ANOTHER Indian professor, who treated me (and another black classmate) only shabbily.

I have since stopped seeing these as isolated incidence as it seems to be a pattern...just my two cents.

I hope you went up to them and called them out on it too prior to reporting it. That sort of behavior is totally unacceptable no matter the race of the perpetrator.

 

[Shrami]

I hope you went up to them and called them out on it too prior to reporting it. That sort of behavior is totally unacceptable no matter the race of the perpetrator.

...well, one of them has since been dismissed based on performance-related complaints from other classmates.

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

I can see this happening. After all Indians do not like their own dark skin so of course they would really look down on a person of color. Of course this comment may in flame the Indian community. However, before they comment and declare the statement untrue, look at Bollywood. "How many dark skinned actresses or actors are present?" Why is it so prevalent in the Indian community to worship white skin and not their own. As far as my comments about Indians cheating it is true. Many Indians have the belief that you have to make it anyway that you can. Even if it means to step on your fellow classmate or neighbor. However, to perpetuate the lie that Indians are smarter than other Asians and other races is crap!

If Indians are so smart, then why can they only display their intelligence outside of India? Why is it not the healthcare sector in India is so poor and unorganized? Many have stated that India produces engineers and so many scientists, so what happened to India?

If Indians are so proud of their intelligence then start building up your own country first. Not come to another countries such as America and Europe and benefit off the backs of the citizens and pretend that you are so "intelligent". Most other Asiatic groups such as Chinese and Japanese do not brag about their intelligence. They admit that they work hard and they have countries to prove it. So, when will the "smart" Indians stand up? After they even look outside for leadership (Sonia Gandhi) a white woman.

 

[112873]

hey ... what were u doing all these 6 years?
why didnt u quit the course?

if u could support yourself a year for your 'finding yourself'...u could have got yourself out of the mess as well.

u got to understand few things..
1.if one is interested in any subject no one could stop him from pursuing it.studying a physics major is not just essential.getting a degres is not needed.your interests in physics would have driven u directly to physics .not all the famous physics guys did study in a college.
or u could have quit the course and joined the physics course. or u could have studied some physics while u were at med school out of interest.did u do any of this?

2.dont blame ur parents for shoving u into the med field.u were confused enough during the 6 years .but you could have quit at any time.u subconsciously didnt also want to upset your parents.

3.each field( either med or physics) has mysteries and unravelled parts to be revealed.the human mind really likes to unravel those mysteries and understand complexieties.
if you were an mystery hunter u would have found a lot of things to be interested in medicine.

4.if had that kind of attitude towards physics u will succeed in your attempt or else u would end up blaming on things around ...for ur whole lifetime.