Warning to all Indian Pre-Meds: Read My Story

[Energon]

I can see this happening. After all Indians do not like their own dark skin so of course they would really look down on a person of color. Of course this comment may in flame the Indian community. However, before they comment and declare the statement untrue, look at Bollywood. "How many dark skinned actresses or actors are present?" Why is it so prevalent in the Indian community to worship white skin and not their own.

I don't think this is true anymore. Surprisingly, I find Indians in India a lot more integrated when it comes to skin tone. As far as Bollywood is concerned the reason you see the people with the same skin tone isn't because there is a "fair only" requirement, but rather because it is an industry that runs on nepotism. Most of the actors/acresses today had parents who were actors/actresses.

As far as my comments about Indians cheating it is true. Many Indians have the belief that you have to make it anyway that you can. Even if it means to step on your fellow classmate or neighbor. However, to perpetuate the lie that Indians are smarter than other Asians and other races is crap!

I think overly competitive students are prone to cheating. Are all indian students super competitive... dont think so; are all pathologically competitive students Indian... dont think so either.

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[Energon]

If Indians are so smart, then why can they only display their intelligence outside of India? Why is it not the healthcare sector in India is so poor and unorganized? Many have stated that India produces engineers and so many scientists, so what happened to India?

The healthcare sector in India is not as bad as you would think. For one, it is free of charge if you cant afford to go to a private physician. And I don't know of any complex medical procedures that aren't performed there. The medical education system is excellent. The problem is a lot of the people who graduate used to migrate in search for a better life abroad. Although, this trend is changing as of late.

 

[Energon]

If Indians are so proud of their intelligence then start building up your own country first. Not come to another countries such as America and Europe and benefit off the backs of the citizens and pretend that you are so "intelligent".

For a long time India was blackballed as far as global business was concerned due to its ties with the USSR. Furthermore, the USA was an ally of Pakistan and considered India a tactical enemy. It is only in the last 10 years or so that this has changed. At the same time, the government though democratic, ran on a socialist model which was very unproductive. These two factors combined wreaked havoc on the econimc condition of the nation. The education system has always been excellent (ironically due to the socialism) which is why there were a large number of doctors and engineers graduating every year. Given their skill set, migrating to foreign countries gave then the opportunity to find financial succes they couldn't at home.
Considering that most of Indians who migrated were heavily qualified doctors, engineers and scientists (educated by the Indian tax payers) provided their services to the people of the country they migrated to. I would hardly call that "benefitting off the backs of local citizens." Do you think all Indians brag about being "intelligent"?
Also, over the past few years the economy of India itself has been growing at about 8.7% which is phenomenally high... the main reason being certain sectors such as IT and services... does that constitue as "smart indians doing something for their own country?"

 

[Energon]

Most other Asiatic groups such as Chinese and Japanese do not brag about their intelligence. They admit that they work hard and they have countries to prove it.

Please provide statistics (other than your obviously limited anecdotal stories) which suggest that Indians brag more than any other Asiatic groups. Also, China is still a devloping nation.

So, when will the "smart" Indians stand up? After they even look outside for leadership (Sonia Gandhi) a white woman.

What makes you think Sonia Gandhi is anything more than a figurehead to attract votes based on her marriage to Rajiv Gandhi? She isn't an operational leader by any measure, she is not the prime minister nor is she head of the congress party. So the notion that Indians had to go look for a "white" woman to lead them is bull$hit, much like the rest of your post.

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

The healthcare sector in India is not as bad as you would think. For one, it is free of charge if you cant afford to go to a private physician. And I don't know of any complex medical procedures that aren't performed there. The medical education system is excellent. The problem is a lot of the people who graduate used to migrate in search for a better life abroad. Although, this trend is changing as of late.

I beg to differ, you need to read "India Untouched" by Abraham George. He chronicles his struggle to bring decent medical care and schooling to India's poor.

http://www.indiauntouched.com/author.htm

You also need to read this report chronicled by United Nations and other Indian doctors:

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol8.1/deogaonkar.html

Not all Indian doctors are running abroad and leaving their people behind, unlike you claim. Also, if the healthcare was free then, "Why are so many people not receiving care especially AIDS patients?

**Sounds like you need to do a bit of research**

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

I don't think this is true anymore. Surprisingly, I find Indians in India a lot more integrated when it comes to skin tone. As far as Bollywood is concerned the reason you see the people with the same skin tone isn't because there is a "fair only" requirement, but rather because it is an industry that runs on nepotism. Most of the actors/acresses today had parents who were actors/actresses.


Once again you have failed to do your research. After all take a look at your local Indian matrimonial page. Only Indian females seem to label themselves "fair"or wheatish. Why because if they are "fair" they stand a better chance of getting a spouse than their "wheatish" or brown counterparts. I have yet to see a black, hispanic or white female list themselves as light brown or fair skinned.

As usual do your research read below:

http://vsequeira.blogspot.com/2005/07/fair-lovely.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1134744,00.html

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1778824,000600010004.htm



Also note many are written by fellow Indians**

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

So the notion that Indians had to go look for a "white" woman to lead them is bull$hit, much like the rest of your post.

As far as bull$hit is concerned. Truth hurts, name calling does not.

 

[MIZUNOGRL29]

What makes you think Sonia Gandhi is anything more than a figurehead to attract votes based on her marriage to Rajiv Gandhi? She isn't an operational leader by any measure, she is not the prime minister nor is she head of the congress party. .

Oh really! So why are people worshipping her as if she was. I know this sounds redundant, but do your research before responding.


http://www.soniagandhi.org/php/showContent.php?linkid=1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3546851.stm

http://www.aicc.org.in/president.htm

 

[jocg27]

I have yet to see a black, hispanic or white female list themselves as light brown or fair skinned.

**

I've already posted on here, but I just wanted to say I'm not Indian...but I happened across this conversation and really found it pretty interesting to read along with, so I wanted to jump in with some points..

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but this part isn't totally true.

I don't know about if people say about it on online dating sites, so maybe it's not bragged about much there....but much of the world has hangups about light and dark skin color, even within their own culture. Mexicans traditionally have often hoped their child will be born light skinned, rather than looking 'too Indian' -- in that case, meaning too native, ie too much like the Aztecs. As their kids get older, they may be cautioned not to play outside too much -- they'll get 'too dark' and look like a laborer. I've heard of Indian families sometimes cautioning the same thing...true?

In countries where many families have some African roots and a lot of mixing, like the Spanish-speaking Caribbean, Brazil, Venezuela, people hope their children won't look too black. And in some of these places, there is very specific terminology about where exactly on the spectrum you fall - pitch black, light skin with African hair and features, dark skin with light eyes, whatever combination you can think of has a term - and it is a spectrum, there is a certain ranking to it. At an older age, it does become a sexual thing, and light skin is, on the whole, more on demand than dark. La Mulata, the beautiful, exotic, and erotic light brown caramel colored offspring of sugar plantation owners and their African slaves, has been adopted in Cuba as sort of an unofficial national symbol, as an example.

This even does apply here -- there's an old phrase among African Americans, high-yellow ("high yaller'"), meaning a black person with a higher amount of white ancestry and who looked closer to white. This was not generally a compliment. But it's been tied to sexuality as well...I'm sure it's different now, but there have been very dark African American women who felt bitter that African American men are more likely to chase after lighter skinned women. I don't know enough specifics to tell the history fully, but you would be very mistaken to assume that light and dark skin color has been unimportant even within African American communities

This is a minor point, I suppose...But it was just interesting to see you say that this phenomenon is mainly Indian, and I just wanted to add to that a little. I think many places cultures have mixed a great deal there is a certain ambivalence about skin color, even within one's own culture.

 

[thupham]

I can see this happening. After all Indians do not like their own dark skin so of course they would really look down on a person of color. Of course this comment may in flame the Indian community. However, before they comment and declare the statement untrue, look at Bollywood. "How many dark skinned actresses or actors are present?" Why is it so prevalent in the Indian community to worship white skin and not their own. As far as my comments about Indians cheating it is true. Many Indians have the belief that you have to make it anyway that you can. Even if it means to step on your fellow classmate or neighbor. However, to perpetuate the lie that Indians are smarter than other Asians and other races is crap!

If Indians are so smart, then why can they only display their intelligence outside of India? Why is it not the healthcare sector in India is so poor and unorganized? Many have stated that India produces engineers and so many scientists, so what happened to India?

If Indians are so proud of their intelligence then start building up your own country first. Not come to another countries such as America and Europe and benefit off the backs of the citizens and pretend that you are so "intelligent". Most other Asiatic groups such as Chinese and Japanese do not brag about their intelligence. They admit that they work hard and they have countries to prove it. So, when will the "smart" Indians stand up? After they even look outside for leadership (Sonia Gandhi) a white woman.

I hate to say this, but I actually agree. And I am Indian.
People do not realize I am Indian; they think I am Pakistani or Persian. When they explain why I must be Pakistani or Persian, they say that its features. But what they really want to say is that I am light skinned and that most Indians are, well, DARK. I mean you'll see some Pakistanis that are dark-skinned (like 10 percent of the time), but the darkest Paki or Persian is still 10 shades lighter than the darkest Indian.
And now, I expect, some Indian is going to pounce all over this and say that I am degrading my own "race." Well, all I said is that Indians are DARK for the most part. And that is a fact.
Another fact is that Indians are ASHAMED of their skin color. The greatest proof is that we parade Aishwarya Rai around and say "WELL LOOK, SHE'S NOT DARK. LOOK INDIANS AREN'T DARK AFTER ALL, AREN'T YOU AMAZED? , Well the most ANNOYING person to walk this earth, but she has gotten her skin bleached, her hair relaxed and dyed. Take a look at pictures taken of her on her website from childhood. She's not ugly, but she's dark-skinned and has typically frizzy Indian hair. Look at her pictures from the Miss India pageant and she is much darker, her nose is flatter, her hair on the frizzy side. IF PEOPLE WANT A WESTERN-LOOKING ACTRESS, THEY ARE GOING TO GO FOR THE REAL THING, WHY WOULD THEY GO FOR SOME BLEACHED, RELAXED INDIAN?
Yes, there are Indians who are on the lighter side but they make up 10 percent at most of the population. And we don't look white. Maybe Armenian, maybe Persian or Paki. But not white.
On that note, why are there so many white actresses chosen to do those dirty dances where they lip sync to songs and look like idiots? You know that's what the truck drivers in INDIA who go to movies, their tongues wag out when they see it..

 

[yukon]

I'm not sure how to wade into this topic but let me start by saying that I personally know a friend whose father(died last year) was a major in the indian army and a cardiologist. My friend got into a medical school after a donation of 10 lakhs(22k $) and after a year left it as his heart wasn't into it. He then came to college in the US to do comp sci. He graduated last year and is now working in cummins. He's actually coming to bangalore in 2 weeks for his wedding.

Reason as to why Indian engineers have a greater profile than indian doctors?
Practising in the states is not easy. You got to do additional residency? before you are allowed to practise. Engineers, well do graduate degrees and are done. Second is that there are only 19000 doctors entering medical school per year. The US has 39,000 entering med school this year. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=54806.
Divide the populations with the number of physicians and you'll see that the numbers are lopsided. India needs more physicians than it has and the US can afford them from other countries. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/i...f05997245103a8&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
In india, you have 150,000-200,000 engineers graduating per year. What number are employable(15 %) is a debate for another time but far more of these engineers make it across to the US.

Why is research(phd) so pathetic in India? Read an article to a basic idea.
haftamag.com - India R&D: The Nehru legacy – Part 1
http://haftamag.com/content/view/89/45/
part 2
http://www.haftamag.com/content/view/100/45/

There are more articles about research but need to search through my archives...

Why so many doctors in Cuba- well, the cuban govt considers them a valuable export to other latin countries(especially venezuela), it also earns cuba goodwill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/19/AR2006071901380.html

There an issue about light skin, dark skin. My suggestion- it is not related to the subject matter on hand. Please discuss it in private or start a new thread somewhere else.
Also, when you're quoting somebody's message, please clip off the meat. Don't make others scroll unnecessarily.

 

[yukon]

One of the reasons Americans think Indians are a success is because the cream of the crop(the top performers, not necessarily the richest) are allowed into the US. When you have the cream of the crop in engineers, doctors, phds.. you expect their kids to do well too. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112101770.html

Now when you wonder are all indians like this? No. Every country has its mediocres, lazy bums, happy-with-their-current-life. You will not find this type in the US because they wouldn't get entry to a large extent. I'm not saying that Indians in india are the lazy ones left behind. No.

The issue on hand is.. do what you are interested in. You will find success. The issue is that the probability of that statement being true is greater in the US than India(at the current moment and into the near future.)

Therefore you have parents pressurising their kids to take up medical or engineering. Although I have to state that many of my friends whose parents are doctors are doing their engineering(although none are doing business.) They are not interested in the medical field because it frankly not that great in India. Far too much competition for seats(mbbs) and admissions to the MD programs is cutthroat. I cringe at the thought of trying for an MD in India(merit).

 

[parasiteatwork]

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

Wow...am so glad that my folks let me choose my way....

 

[navinnatarajan@]

Hi, I lived through it and totally agree that you miss out on so much of the undergrad growing up period

 

[Hbdoctor]

The discussion about Indian med students pursuing medicine as a career is interesting.

Let me tell me something about me. I did my med school from India and did post-graduation (= residency) in Peds there too. Cleared USMLEs in 1995 (wrote in Thailand)And did not get visa for 6 years. Had meanwhile set up my own practice there and was doing well. I applied for a visa in 2001-without much planning this time though- and fortunately or unfortunately got it. And my troubles started!! I mean hassels of repeating the training again: residency and then fellowship!!

I have read the arguements about Indians being intelligent! Well, statsitically speaking, Indian community is doing well in The US,but it doesnot imply that others are not intelligent! To love being Indian is not bad,but we should not go to the extent that it may be portrayed as being "racist". I agree with MD rapper's many observations as to why Indian parents aspire their wards to become doctors. But it is equally 'fashionable' to become engineeres too! Thus no doubt Indian parents want their wards to be professionally educated.
I too may have been driven into being a doctor,but I am comfortable with that now.

As I have realized over the years that Medicine is not my real love, thus I would make a very dispassionate opinion about being a doctor: Better financial status and an opportunity to help others (even if you are not mad about being a doctor) what we call a "HEALING TOUCH"!

 

[Hbdoctor]

The discussion about Indian med students pursuing medicine as a career is interesting.

Let me tell me something about me. I did my med school from India and did post-graduation (= residency) in Peds there too. Cleared USMLEs in 1995 (wrote in Thailand)And did not get visa for 6 years. Had meanwhile set up my own practice there and was doing well. I applied for a visa in 2001-without much planning this time though- and fortunately or unfortunately got it. And my troubles started!! I mean hassels of repeating the training again: residency and then fellowship!!

I have read the arguements about Indians being intelligent! Well, statsitically speaking, Indian community is doing well in The US,but it doesnot imply that others are not intelligent! To love being Indian is not bad,but we should not go to the extent that it may be portrayed as being "racist". I agree with MD rapper's many observations as to why Indian parents aspire their wards to become doctors. But it is equally 'fashionable' to become engineeres too! Thus no doubt Indian parents want their wards to be professionally educated.
I too may have been driven into being a doctor,but I am comfortable with that now.

As I have realized over the years that Medicine is not my real love, thus I would make a very dispassionate opinion about being a doctor: Better financial status and an opportunity to help others (even if you are not mad about being a doctor) what we call a "HEALING TOUCH"!

 

[Northerner]

The discussion about Indian med students pursuing medicine as a career is interesting.

Let me tell me something about me. I did my med school from India and did post-graduation (= residency) in Peds there too. Cleared USMLEs in 1995 (wrote in Thailand)And did not get visa for 6 years. Had meanwhile set up my own practice there and was doing well. I applied for a visa in 2001-without much planning this time though- and fortunately or unfortunately got it. And my troubles started!! I mean hassels of repeating the training again: residency and then fellowship!!

I have read the arguements about Indians being intelligent! Well, statsitically speaking, Indian community is doing well in The US,but it doesnot imply that others are not intelligent! To love being Indian is not bad,but we should not go to the extent that it may be portrayed as being "racist". I agree with MD rapper's many observations as to why Indian parents aspire their wards to become doctors. But it is equally 'fashionable' to become engineeres too! Thus no doubt Indian parents want their wards to be professionally educated.
I too may have been driven into being a doctor,but I am comfortable with that now.

As I have realized over the years that Medicine is not my real love, thus I would make a very dispassionate opinion about being a doctor: Better financial status and an opportunity to help others (even if you are not mad about being a doctor) what we call a "HEALING TOUCH"!

Good post, thanks for your input.

 

[deeper]

This is an interesting thread. I am of North Indian background. My parents are hardworking, but not successful by anymeans (they are and always have struggled). When i was younger they were pushing me into medicine for job security and money (things they didn't have) basically to give me a better life. I thought they were crazy. I didn't know what i wanted to do with my life. 3 years ago, on an impluse... i actually went to med school. I figured ahh what the hell, let me give it a shot and i wont like it it. I'll leave and then they cant say "well you should have tried it" type crap. 3 years later im still in med school, i love it. I found a part of my self while in med school that i didn't realize i had before. I like it alot, i couldn't imagine myself doing anything else.

Just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

[Ninja]

Indians are considerably intelligent, and that shows because the majority of the indians in the states are scientists, engineers, business owners and of course doctors. Oh, and we have the highest average annual income of all minorities, about (70,000) Indians are HARD WORKING - we will do anything to succeed and prosper and ulitmately achieve our goal - unlike many of the fat-lazy americans I know and see.

I've been to India many times (ALL my family besides my parents and sister are there.) I know guys there that work scut jobs, are poor, but could easily cruise through MIT or Harvard-but just don't have the finances. The point I'm trying to get at is that we're hard working, and wiling to make sacrifices to accomplish our goal.

Most americans here don't have a clue about how lucky they have it here: the potential to make money, to do what you want, freedom, lifestyle. Indians know that because of the hardships they went through living in India.

I'm making the most of my medical education here, and will be practicing in the USA when finish med school.

So keep your snide remarks to yourself, you'll do everyone some good.

I'm not sure which India you went to. There are a good proportion of stupid people everywhere and India is no exception. The Indian community in the US tends to be more educated and well off than the national average because only they were allowed to immigrate. It wasn't a free for all. If you want a real world comparison, go to the UK and look at the Indians there, especially in London.

The population you see in London is comparable to one you see in Mumbai or Delhi - Indians doing all sorts of jobs from the menial to the brilliant ones. I'm not sure how much worldly experience you have had, but you are welcome to post evidence if you want to contradict me.

 

[Northerner]

I'm not sure which India you went to. There are a good proportion of stupid people everywhere and India is no exception. The Indian community in the US tends to be more educated and well off than the national average because only they were allowed to immigrate. It wasn't a free for all. If you want a real world comparison, go to the UK and look at the Indians there, especially in London.

The population you see in London is comparable to one you see in Mumbai or Delhi - Indians doing all sorts of jobs from the menial to the brilliant ones. I'm not sure how much worldly experience you have had, but you are welcome to post evidence if you want to contradict me.

My opinion of you, while already pretty high, just got higher.

 

[lollol]

I hate to say this, but I actually agree. And I am Indian.
People do not realize I am Indian; they think I am Pakistani or Persian. When they explain why I must be Pakistani or Persian, they say that its features. But what they really want to say is that I am light skinned and that most Indians are, well, DARK. I mean you'll see some Pakistanis that are dark-skinned (like 10 percent of the time), but the darkest Paki or Persian is still 10 shades lighter than the darkest Indian.
And now, I expect, some Indian is going to pounce all over this and say that I am degrading my own "race." Well, all I said is that Indians are DARK for the most part. And that is a fact.
Another fact is that Indians are ASHAMED of their skin color. The greatest proof is that we parade Aishwarya Rai around and say "WELL LOOK, SHE'S NOT DARK. LOOK INDIANS AREN'T DARK AFTER ALL, AREN'T YOU AMAZED? , Well the most ANNOYING person to walk this earth, but she has gotten her skin bleached, her hair relaxed and dyed. Take a look at pictures taken of her on her website from childhood. She's not ugly, but she's dark-skinned and has typically frizzy Indian hair. Look at her pictures from the Miss India pageant and she is much darker, her nose is flatter, her hair on the frizzy side. IF PEOPLE WANT A WESTERN-LOOKING ACTRESS, THEY ARE GOING TO GO FOR THE REAL THING, WHY WOULD THEY GO FOR SOME BLEACHED, RELAXED INDIAN?
Yes, there are Indians who are on the lighter side but they make up 10 percent at most of the population. And we don't look white. Maybe Armenian, maybe Persian or Paki. But not white.
On that note, why are there so many white actresses chosen to do those dirty dances where they lip sync to songs and look like idiots? You know that's what the truck drivers in INDIA who go to movies, their tongues wag out when they see it..

I agree 100% with u... im NOT a rascist, but this is true...

And about parents forcing their kids: i know many many indian docs really good, and i know that most of them are NOT forced, but however: they went deliberately in the med field, BECAUSE OF THEIR PARENTS. their parents told that daaacktar is a good job, high status, good salary (mera beta dacktar bene ga), and then they went DELIBERATALY in the field AND THEY LIKE IT!!! But their parents played a important role. And i really think this is valid for most of the indian docs.. many of them dont even know their parents played a important role and many of them will ignore it... but i know its true for many of them.

And: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS! I even know a few guys, whose parents went to usa so their kids can become a doc

And i feel very sorry about the topicstarter, that his parents forced hem into med field

What im saying is valid for India, but also to a lesser extent for desis (pakistanis, bengali etc).

I believe there are many indian docs (and im sure its true, i know to many of them);
1) Parents --> they say that dacktar is good, but do NOT force their kid. Thats not the indian/desi mentality
2) By studying medicine u dont become a good doc --> Indians are REALLY REALLY hard working They work really hard to become a doc. The docs/studs i know are walking "harrisons" They know so much! yes, i do think that generally speaking Indians are the most hard working students, and thats why i even admire them

So it begins with #1, but #2 has a very very important role.

I know most indian docs here wont accept this, but once again: there is nothing weird to accept it my indian friends

 

[lollol]

I'm not sure which India you went to. There are a good proportion of stupid people everywhere and India is no exception. The Indian community in the US tends to be more educated and well off than the national average because only they were allowed to immigrate. It wasn't a free for all. If you want a real world comparison, go to the UK and look at the Indians there, especially in London.

The population you see in London is comparable to one you see in Mumbai or Delhi - Indians doing all sorts of jobs from the menial to the brilliant ones. I'm not sure how much worldly experience you have had, but you are welcome to post evidence if you want to contradict me.

Can u explain this a bit more? I not so aware of the history of indians in the us (why were they allowed to immigrate??).

Thnx

 

[jocg27]

I have read the arguements about Indians being intelligent! Well, statsitically speaking, Indian community is doing well in The US,but it doesnot imply that others are not intelligent! To love being Indian is not bad,but we should not go to the extent that it may be portrayed as being "racist". I agree with MD rapper's many observations as to why Indian parents aspire their wards to become doctors. But it is equally 'fashionable' to become engineeres too! Thus no doubt Indian parents want their wards to be professionally educated.
I too may have been driven into being a doctor,but I am comfortable with that now.

I agree with your post and thought you make good points about why it appears Indians in this country appear successful, hardworking, and intelligent...but the use of this word jumped out at me...And I don't know, maybe it's a minor point, or just a language issue, and was probably written lightheartedly without thinking about it, meant to just mean their kids, but on some level it's one of the more telling words in the post.

I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it seemed funny, kind of out of place...I looked it up, and the most fitting definition for what you're saying is:

6 : a person or thing under guard, protection, or surveillance: as a : a minor subject to wardship b : a person who by reason of incapacity (as minority or mental illness) is under the protection of a court either directly or through a guardian appointed by the court -- called also ward of court c : a person or body of persons under the protection or tutelage of a government

It's a generalization, of course, but generalizations by definition are generally true, that most American families quite simply never think of their kids this way...

I think, as I've said, that the intelligence and hardworking-ness of Indians in this country and almost completely a product of who comes - ie who has money to come and who is allowed to come by US immigration law.

But within this subset of Indians, there sure does seem to me to be a tendency for parents to direct their kids to what the parents think their career should be, as a generalized contrast to American parents who see their job more as helping their kid decide what career they'd like to enter and perhaps helping them reach that self-decided goal, and in the case of disagreement, giving nothing more than an occasional exasperated "but you'll never get a job!"

 

[jocg27]

Can u explain this a bit more? I not so aware of the history of indians in the us (why were they allowed to immigrate??).

Thnx

This started in 1965...One aspect of Lyndon Johnson's INS act was that it introduced immigration quotas on the basis of education and professional experience, versus simple set limits on specific national origins...At this point being an educated professional became a tangible benefit in determining who could legally come to the US. I would bet that the parents of the majority of people posting on this thread came after 1965, under this law.

 

[newdoc010]

I really pity dockdock -Having completed med school and throwing everything away. I am a new practising MD. You would have been smarter not to start it but now that you are done maybe you should consider things in a common sense light. Why would you want to not enjoy the fruits of your labor in a job that is highly exhilarating, extremely envied, looked upto, light, anything but boring, and pays you >300 K/ yr with good job security. Does bringing smiles to people you help, or saving lives turn you away ??? Strange....

I am at a loss. You seem to oppose your parents pressure more than medicine. Your current reaction is due to parental pressure. If peer pressure had made you choose medicine you would have been much happier. I really pity your current plight. Hope you don't get more muddled in your future life and make some sensible decisions. Oh by the way, I was also awarded the presidential all India gold medal for physics in India in college ( something awarded to only 25 stellar students a year: so I know what physics is. I am also Indian.. Adios.

 

[jocg27]

I really pity dockdock -Having completed med school and throwing everything away. I am a new practising MD. You would have been smarter not to start it but now that you are done maybe you should consider things in a common sense light. Why would you want to not enjoy the fruits of your labor in a job that is highly exhilarating, extremely envied, looked upto, light, anything but boring, and pays you >300 K/ yr with good job security. Does bringing smiles to people you help, or saving lives turn you away ??? Strange....

I am at a loss. You seem to oppose your parents pressure more than medicine. Your current reaction is due to parental pressure. If peer pressure had made you choose medicine you would have been much happier. I really pity your current plight. Hope you don't get more muddled in your future life and make some sensible decisions. Oh by the way, I was also awarded the presidential all India gold medal for physics in India in college ( something awarded to only 25 stellar students a year: so I know what physics is. I am also Indian.. Adios.

Maybe medicine is not actually 'highly exhilarating' for him -- it certainly isn't for everyone...And as far as envy, is medicine highly envied? I don't know, by some people, I suppose, but certainly not all...And if you're choosing any career based on how much it's envied, then it is likely that you are a poster child for the kind of thinking that makes so many families force their children into a career they do not want to pursue, and in which they quickly become miserable. What you mean by your characterization of medicine as "light" I have absolutely no idea, and am unable to answer that part of your post. Parts of medicine are in fact boring, and while you or I may find parts exciting, they are likely less so for someone who is completely uninterested and entered medicine only because it is simply what has always been expected of him or her. Finally, I think you overestimate the overall earning potential of physicians. While it's certainly accurate some doctors can earn more than $300,000/year, it's by no means a majority -- doctors earning this much are largely surgical subspecialists, and that level of income is not guaranteed to anyone on the completion of medical school as your post suggests.

I do not understand your argument about the balance of peer pressure and family pressure in determining how happy you are in your profession. It seems to me that someone who chooses their career based on their interests, plans, and desires is likely to be happier than someone whose career has been chosen by either their family or peers.

I am at a loss as well...I do not understand your post. You seem to have completely fallen under the spell of dockdock's family's exact reasoning...In fact, you and dockdock to me seem to be the two possible extreme outcomes of the medicine/engineering-or-nothing school of thought so prevalent in many immigrant families. It seems as though you are happy and have found your place in medicine and will enjoy your career. But sometime I think it would also be worthwhile for you to understand that medicine simply is not for everyone, and wanting to pursue something other than medicine is not "strange...."

 

[dockdock]

I really pity dockdock.

I really pity your current plight. Hope you don't get more muddled in your future life and make some sensible decisions.

Hahahahaha! Thanks! That's one of the funniest posts I've ever read!

As an update, here's my current situation: after lighting my medical diploma on fire, I listened to peer pressure and went into the crystal meth business. After all, peer pressure is the source of my decisions. Anyway, I have a girlfriend who is currently addicted to heroin, but she's making money for rehab by working the corner of 45th and Broadway. I consider suicide on a daily basis; today, I tried hanging myself, but all I could afford was dental floss, and the noose broke.

I sincerely appreciate your pity, for I need it. I wish I were in Darfur--they have it so much better than I do! I'm totally miserable, and I'm crying as I type this. Your pity gives me a tiny bit more strength to go on, as does your sage words.

To all the others who pity me: I'm going to set up a PayPal account so you can donate money to my cause. You're all making $300k per year and loving every minute of it, so please send some of that love my way.

 

[Countess827]

Getting back to the topic at hand, I think dockdock makes a good point though. I felt pressured at the beginning by my parents while I was in high school, and my dad wanted me to apply to a 6-yr program as well. I refused to apply, and went to a 4-yr college and majored in something non-science related with a bio minor. I ended up going to medical school, but that was my choice, and not my parents in the end.

I don't think it makes any difference what part of India you are from, parents seem to think they know what's best for you by deciding what career path you should have in life. They can offer their suggestions, but it is ultimately up to you to choose. I won't tell you its easy to choose on your own, but it is definitely worth it. My dad likes to point out how we waste so much time here since you have to get a Bachelor's degree and then a md, but I'm glad I got to get my Bachelor's degree and I tell him that all the time.

I applaud your strength to move on dockdock and the fact you are doing something you love. Good luck to you.

 

[Dr.Do.Little]

Hahahahaha! Thanks! That's one of the funniest posts I've ever read!

As an update, here's my current situation: after lighting my medical diploma on fire, I listened to peer pressure and went into the crystal meth business. After all, peer pressure is the source of my decisions. Anyway, I have a girlfriend who is currently addicted to heroin, but she's making money for rehab by working the corner of 45th and Broadway. I consider suicide on a daily basis; today, I tried hanging myself, but all I could afford was dental floss, and the noose broke.

I sincerely appreciate your pity, for I need it. I wish I were in Darfur--they have it so much better than I do! I'm totally miserable, and I'm crying as I type this. Your pity gives me a tiny bit more strength to go on, as does your sage words.

To all the others who pity me: I'm going to set up a PayPal account so you can donate money to my cause. You're all making $300k per year and loving every minute of it, so please send some of that love my way.

If this quote is true, real sense as well as his first posting, then DockDock needs phychological treatment. He can neither be a good doctor nor be a good physics wizard, rather be a poor mental patient! Thereason:

1. First posting, he narrates a story how his parents forced him to go medicine. If so, as someone said, he would challenged his position and followed his wish. If not, he would have come any time. Later he moved to physics, looks like left in middle and laments his girl friend's deal, and the suicide issues, and finally shamelessly begging for money (I really doubt that this guy makes all of us fool, and plays all the nonsense with this board). If a person has finished a graduation, and he is mentally stable, why the hell he is asking all the fellow people to send him money through paypal?

If people are reading his comment seriously (as most of us did), he is making fun out os us.

 

[mass]

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

Man you are so true. I have never read a better article, what is this stupid mentality of indians, my parents are the same.

 

[71263]

Dockdock is one of the most intelligent posters on SDN!

On a side note, one thing I like about my parents is that they did not force me into medicine. It was something I had decided on my own a long time ago. Im sure they did nothing to discourage me, however!

My brother wants nothing to do with medicine, and im pretty sure my sister does not either. They seem to be taking their own paths.

 

[MedStar]

I disagree with a significant amount of the writing on this thread. In particular the posts dealing with skin color. Indians in my opinion are not ashamed of their skin color/tone. Indians in my opinion prefer to not have white skin. Indians may prefer a lighter skin tone but not white skin per se.

I have fair skin and have been often mistook for an Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish, Eastern European. I always correct them. I also know of many Indians that are light skinned and look European. I also know of many Indians that are dark skinned but have Caucasian features, and I have met some that are dark skinned with Australoid features-but not many. To me it is a shame that Indian cultures has been hidden, derided and nearly ruined by eurocentric/anglo views of the past. According to scientific/anthropological classification schemes Indians are Caucasoids [some scholars had put them as Aryans however that is a loaded terms these days and is not used as you are probably aware; on the same token many people dont even know that Indians are Caucasoid and have been labeled by the US Census as Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis) however there is a political motive to this by some Indian/Gujrati business people who thought it was better to have minority status for federal loan schemes etc., a heavy price to pay for money in my mind.]

Our history was being told by others until recently. The very meaning of Arya/Aryan was taken away from Indians by the Anglo/Saxon people of europe. Today it is 'bad' to claim you are an Aryan and to wear a Swastika. Indians need to show the world we are the oldest and most successive culture in the world. We have many shades of color amongst us but our blood runs the same color through and through. We are split up into Arya and Dravida by outsiders when it is being acknowledged that Arya and Dravida are one. But enough of this particular ethno/racial topic.

Indians are a prosperous diaspora and even back in the old country, Indians are doing well. There is a middle class now of nearly 400,000,000 Indians! So to answer a detractor in her previous posts-Indians are successful in their own country too! Watch in the next decades to come, India will be a superpower-not my words but those of international think tanks in Britain, France, Germany, Canada and the USofA.

India's rise is so much more phenomenal since it is a country not under communist rule nor is it a non-secular country where it is easier to manipulate the populace and achieve social order. India is a country of hundreds of ethnicities and many religious beliefs and various levels of social status and privilege thus looking like a labyrinth for any person or party to sort out and push towards economic growth. However Indians have done it and will keep doing it.

 

[dockdock]

If this quote is true, real sense as well as his first posting, then DockDock needs phychological treatment. He can neither be a good doctor nor be a good physics wizard, rather be a poor mental patient! Thereason:

1. First posting, he narrates a story how his parents forced him to go medicine. If so, as someone said, he would challenged his position and followed his wish. If not, he would have come any time. Later he moved to physics, looks like left in middle and laments his girl friend's deal, and the suicide issues, and finally shamelessly begging for money (I really doubt that this guy makes all of us fool, and plays all the nonsense with this board). If a person has finished a graduation, and he is mentally stable, why the hell he is asking all the fellow people to send him money through paypal?

If people are reading his comment seriously (as most of us did), he is making fun out os us.

LOL!

Great post!

 

[jon stewart]

the majority of Indians are no more intelligent that the white/black/hispanic/(whoever else iv missed) people. The difference arises is that we work much harder than most people. Now im not saying that other people don't work hard. Im sure this has been said at least 10 times already, but many Indian people in the states and elsewhere worked hard to get a degree and to go overseas to live for a better life. Now there is nothing wrong with this.

While i don't think that medicine is goona be the way to go for most Indian kids in the future. I think that its being a faded out by the younger generation who will have kids. Since many of us have been brought up in western countries.

However, medicine really should not be about making money, and its portrayed that way by some Indian parents, my parents included. Now doing medicine inst going to make you a poor man, but once you consider all insurance, stress etc, is it really worth it maybe/maybe not? There are many successful people who make more than a decent living doing other jobs that arnt as liable or stressful. But they had to work hard to get there.

Another thing that make me kinda mad is the Indian parents who look down on other Indian kids who don't go into medicine because they don't want to. This is complete bs, the kid will be just as successfull if he/she works hard in whatever he/she wants to do. Also, Indian people in general cant mind their own business, they love to keep tabs on other people.....and i don't understand this point. Why do Indian parents care so much about what other Indian people are doing???

I think that the parents who worked hard for their degrees and moved abroad is a good example of what hard work can do (this is what has inspired me to work hard, i lived in Australia for over a decade and iv been in the US for about 4.5 years now). I can see all the hard work that my parents have put in for ME. They didn't have to move around for me, but they chose to. When we first moved to Australia we were very poor, all our furniture was donated from st vincet depaul and we lived in some run down apmt. I gather my inspiration from this, and this give me the drive to work hard (again iv seen that all the hard work does get you somewhere in life). Go watch the pursuit of happiness! Thats should gather anyones inspiration! perfect example of someone OTHER than Indian working hard to be successful (its based on a true story incase you didn't know) .

This brings me to another point. While i admire those who want to pursue medicine or any other career through hard work, there are some kinds who unfortunately don't see the value in working hard. I think this is attributed to the fact that they were brought up in the states/other 1st world countries with fairly well off parents, and they have been given everything. Now im sure that the parents worked hard to be where they are today, but its unfortunate that the kids don't see much of this. This is why i think that the kids don't try as hard as they should. I think this is why Indian kids push their kids to work so hard, even forcing them into medicine when they don't want to.

Just my opinion,
-and i dont intend this post to be racist in any way or form.

 

[dockdock]

I agree with you, jon stewart. in the first world countries, hard work = success. but from college, I've learned that many, many Indian students don't understand that you can open your own pool-cleaning business and make as much as a doctor, if you run it cleverly. in the indian student association, it seemed like everyone was pre-med or pre-dental or pre-pharmacy...even the not-so-bright students.

like I said before I'm not implying that all Indian pre-meds are there for unscrupulous reasons, but rather that a large portion of them are there for the wrong reasons, such as prestige among the indian community.

anyway, an earlier poster confirmed what I was getting at. he pities me because I don't want to be a doctor--"why wouldn't a person want this job?" believe it or not, for some people, money is not everything. for some people, devoting their lives to helping sick people feel better is a hollow existence. bringing smiles to the face of strangers does nothing for me, especially after watching my waistline expand because I've been on call q4 for a year, for example. I'd rather have an extra hour to go to the gym than make fat old Mr. Smith with the diabetic foot get better. I get more exhiliration out of re-paving my driveway than cutting open someone's abdomen to pull out their colon. But maybe that makes me an evil person, eh?

but hey, let the flaming continue.

 

[jon stewart]

yea, some people just don't see things certain ways, oh well. As long as you are doing whatever you want and you are happy, it shouldn't matter what ANYONE thinks of you.

 

[M3goingon4]

I'm not sure which India you went to. There are a good proportion of stupid people everywhere and India is no exception. The Indian community in the US tends to be more educated and well off than the national average because only they were allowed to immigrate. It wasn't a free for all. If you want a real world comparison, go to the UK and look at the Indians there, especially in London.

The population you see in London is comparable to one you see in Mumbai or Delhi - Indians doing all sorts of jobs from the menial to the brilliant ones. I'm not sure how much worldly experience you have had, but you are welcome to post evidence if you want to contradict me.

a post only indians or those who spent >70% of their life will understand.

the majority of indians in America are Gujurati. Gujurati's in general are hardworking people, with a keen sense. We joke that they are the Jews of the Indian community, stereotyped to have great business sense, but...unfortunately, cheap. Regardless, they are very hard working.

Who are the biggest immigrators from India to America? South Indians. This group too places a very high emphasis on education. In the south, where conditions are poorer, a common dream is to go study in America. But to be poor in India and come to America, you have to be pretty darn smart and hardworking. This further adds to the image of Indians being hard-working.

UK - mostly punjabis. The state of punjab in India is deplorable, with alcohol addiction, drug addiction, lack of education, etc. a SEVERE problem among pubjabis and punjabi-sikhs. Thus, one can wholly expect that indians in UK aren't doing nearly as well as the Indians here.
historically, during time of british rule, the sikhs were leaders of local battalions/army for england. so, they were the ones that came to england. an ex-lieutenant or whatever british equivalent, and several problems, for whatever reason, explains their situation. giving them the benefit of the doubt, and i'm not saying it's true, the Indian government may have discriminated against the punjabis, as they commonly claim, since it was a sikh that betrayed gandhi.

(for you non-Indians, the Sikhs wear turbans, are not muslim, come from Pakistan and North-India in the state of punjab)

UK indians are not comparable to American Indians from India.
Nice try.

 

[M3goingon4]

oh yeah, indians are darker. they like to be light. Light is conceived as pretty as the majority identify; don't fight your nature.

But they don't want to be very pale either. It's not becoming on an Indian, makes them look rather sickly.

They go for the golden brown latina-type skin tone. Almost any indian male admits that the hottest indian girls look very latina.

bipasha basu in Barsaat is an excellent example.

 

[dockdock]

a post only indians or those who spent >70% of their life will understand.

the majority of indians in America are Gujurati. Gujurati's in general are hardworking people, with a keen sense. We joke that they are the Jews of the Indian community, stereotyped to have great business sense, but...unfortunately, cheap. Regardless, they are very hard working.

Who are the biggest immigrators from India to America? South Indians. This group too places a very high emphasis on education. In the south, where conditions are poorer, a common dream is to go study in America. But to be poor in India and come to America, you have to be pretty darn smart and hardworking. This further adds to the image of Indians being hard-working.

UK - mostly punjabis. The state of punjab in India is deplorable, with alcohol addiction, drug addiction, lack of education, etc. a SEVERE problem among pubjabis and punjabi-sikhs. Thus, one can wholly expect that indians in UK aren't doing nearly as well as the Indians here.
historically, during time of british rule, the sikhs were leaders of local battalions/army for england. so, they were the ones that came to england. an ex-lieutenant or whatever british equivalent, and several problems, for whatever reason, explains their situation. giving them the benefit of the doubt, and i'm not saying it's true, the Indian government may have discriminated against the punjabis, as they commonly claim, since it was a sikh that betrayed gandhi.

(for you non-Indians, the Sikhs wear turbans, are not muslim, come from Pakistan and North-India in the state of punjab)

UK indians are not comparable to American Indians from India.
Nice try.

Wow. I wonder what part of India you're from.

Hey, did you know that Americans from New Jersey place a high value on education, and they're very hard-working? But if you go to Alabama, all you'll find are alcoholic racists--absolutely nothing else. It's a SEVERE problem among Alabamans.

Did you know that Germans have a problem in general with genocide and starting world wars? It's common knowledge that Germans are war-causing troublemakers--it's a SEVERE problem among Germans.

Did you know that there's this Chinese guy in my diff EQ class who's awesome at math? It's a SEVERE problem among the Chinese.

There's this guy I went to med school with who's Sikh, but since alcoholism and drug abuse is built into his genes, he would always show up high and drunk. It's a SEVERE problem among Punjabis, and especially Sikhs.

Oh and Sikhs turn into sea-monsters when no one's looking. They eat the babies of hard-working Gujuratis. It's a SEVERE problem among Punjabis.

 

[M3goingon4]

Wow. I wonder what part of India you're from.

Hey, did you know that Americans from New Jersey place a high value on education, and they're very hard-working? But if you go to Alabama, all you'll find are alcoholic racists--absolutely nothing else. It's a SEVERE problem among Alabamans.

Did you know that Germans have a problem in general with genocide and starting world wars? It's common knowledge that Germans are war-causing troublemakers--it's a SEVERE problem among Germans.

Did you know that there's this Chinese guy in my diff EQ class who's awesome at math? It's a SEVERE problem among the Chinese.

There's this guy I went to med school with who's Sikh, but since alcoholism and drug abuse is built into his genes, he would always show up high and drunk. It's a SEVERE problem among Punjabis, and especially Sikhs.

Oh and Sikhs turn into sea-monsters when no one's looking. They eat the babies of hard-working Gujuratis. It's a SEVERE problem among Punjabis.

haha i like your spunk kiddo. but look it up. The situation in Punjab is well documented. There's a theory that the indian government tried to wipe out their culture by forcing assimilation. At least that's what my sikh friends all tell me. But go ahead and look it up.
And if you don't, then just think that when indian people tell jokes to each other, the southies are dark as night, the gujus are cheap as hell, and the punjabs are drunken buffoons. Most recent example; the movie Fanaa. "Jolly-good-ji" represented as a sikh...well...idiot. Oh, Barsaat too, the fat friend. Maybe the media certainly doesnt help their cause, but the facts are indeed true.

Here's one article for you:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010905/health.htm#1

unfortunately, like i said, it's true.

as to the other things, i'll just humor you with this link:
http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank06.htm

New Jersey - 4; Alabama - 45

makes you go hmmm...don't it?

lastly, not guju, not south, not punjabi...would you like to keep guessing?

 

[Jaybe]

As a parallel to the sentiments of this thread, I would like to introduce another example of the overemphasis Indian parents (and kids) place on careers. Unfortunately, Indian children tend to perpetuate this obnoxius habit which they learn by example from their elders.

Amma: I went to Usha's wedding last week. . .

Daughter: Really, how was it?

Amma: It was great, Usha is in her final year of MD from top American school.

Daughter: Achha. Harvard, ya?

Amma: No, ya. She is doing MD from UPENN only. EXCELLENT school!

Daughter: Ohhhh. That's great, she's done quite well for herself. How is her husband?

Amma: Oh bita, he is great. He is IIT guy, you know. Now he is in the US doing Engineering PhD from Stanford.

Daughter: Yeah, ya! Veeery, smart!

Amma: He has US Greencard. Excellent match for Usha.

Daughter: How nice, sounds like a beautiful wedding!!! Okay, Amma, I'll call again next week. BYE!


This is almost word for word a conversation I overheard between an Indian Mom and Daughter last week. My question is, how does any of that dialogue describe the wedding Amma attended?

 

[M3goingon4]

jaybe; i like what you tried to do, and normally i'd agree with you as to the dynamics that are common in indian households.
whether i agree or not is another story (marrying for love, or stability; love first, or does love develop later, etc.)

but they are both women. women love to gossip.
sorry, that came out harshy, and people know men who clearly didn't receive their prescriptions for testicles just yet and gossip as well, but the whole gossip thing is famed for women because...well, it's more likely with them.

but in indian populations, its magnified a thousand times. any indian in an indian community knows the gossip, drama, etc. so of course these two indian women aren't going to talk about the party, when gossiping about people is so much more juicy.

it's the men who'll talk about the party. the women will clamour over the rumors they picked up during their talks.

but i do see what you are trying to get at, and you do make a point

 

[whistler]

As a parallel to the sentiments of this thread, I would like to introduce another example of the overemphasis Indian parents (and kids) place on careers. Unfortunately, Indian children tend to perpetuate this obnoxius habit which they learn by example from their elders.

Amma: I went to Usha's wedding last week. . .

Daughter: Really, how was it?

Amma: It was great, Usha is in her final year of MD from top American school.

Daughter: Achha. Harvard, ya?

Amma: No, ya. She is doing MD from UPENN only. EXCELLENT school!

Daughter: Ohhhh. That's great, she's done quite well for herself. How is her husband?

Amma: Oh bita, he is great. He is IIT guy, you know. Now he is in the US doing Engineering PhD from Stanford.

Daughter: Yeah, ya! Veeery, smart!

Amma: He has US Greencard. Excellent match for Usha.

Daughter: How nice, sounds like a beautiful wedding!!! Okay, Amma, I'll call again next week. BYE!


This is almost word for word a conversation I overheard between an Indian Mom and Daughter last week. My question is, how does any of that dialogue describe the wedding Amma attended?

HAHA. only difference between what you said and what my own aunts say, is in addition to the education, they are amazingly harsh about looks. They'll say so and so is so much better looking, or neither one of them is terribly good looking, too dark skin, etc. I'm like auntie, wtf are you aishwarya rai or something.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

HAHA. only difference between what you said and what my own aunts say, is in addition to the education, they are amazingly harsh about looks. They'll say so and so is so much better looking, or neither one of them is terribly good looking, too dark skin, etc. I'm like auntie, wtf are you aishwarya rai or something.

It't so true what you say.....these Indian aunties...

 

[gwen]

this is a hilarious thread now.

i especially like the part from the wedding phone convo transcript when Amma says "No, ya"

 

[cutievans]

Dock Dock, the fact that u had the motivation to go back to college and do physics, good job. good u followed your heart. my friend, he is indian, is a physics major too, one of the hardest majors out there. the more and more I realize a lot of people are in medicine for the money, its sad. I am pre-med too, I have always wanted to do it, I am actually doing DO cos i just love their philosophy, it makes so much sense to me and I believe I can help people so much with osteopathic principles and OMM. yeah and the more i talk to people, they chose to be a doctor for the money. I mean not that they hate it but its important to like what you are doing. I mean I have so much passion for curing people that I don't see myself in anything else. And so when I hear people talking about the money, its hard to relate. Well I guess one can look at it another way, I mean people get a job to earn money and so its not wrong to think about that when u r picking medicine, but still I just feel that u gotta have some love for it. My parents never pressured me into it. I mean they love the idea I am goin into it but we never talked about it before I chose to do it. My sister wants to do law, my dad like a lot of indian parents u know adviced her to do medicine, he dint pressure her, just let her know what he thinks. but its not what she wants. so she is gonna do law. my uncle asked me y i dint wanna do pharmacy instead, he said it pays well and according to him its easier on a woman. my dad's friend told him to tell me the same thing. its true sometimes people value the pay more than what they want to do. ofcourse i told em it's not wanna do, have no passion for it.

its just great to find people who are really doing what they really want, not just going with it. which is not a bad thing but still when u do something u have a passion for u r just so engrossed in it, u know u enjoy it so much...i am pretty sure u know what i mean. My best friend, she is not indian, she is brazilian. she always wanted to do petroleum engineering. her parents dint pressure her or anything. she pursued it since high school, i mean when she talked to u about it u could tell she loves it so much. she was in it for 3 years waiting to get to her real petroleum eng. classes and she loved it once she got there. but she hated that none of her profs cared about it, or cared for the students. it just frustrated her so much and as she contemplated it she realized that she might not be happy as a pet. eng. she saw so many people in there for the money and lot of htem thought they wre the s**t cos they were in one of the hardest majors and would be making a lot of money. anyone reading this dont get offended i am not genralizing anyone, i am not saying engineers are bad or good, i am just stating what she felt of most of the people in her major. she decided to change to anthropology and she is loving her classes. she knows that she wouldda made so much more as a pet. eng. but she know she would not be happy with it and she doesnt wanna go to work everyday and hate what she is doing. I say good decision.

so back to my main point, good job, takes a lot to decide to back to school after u have been through so many years of it. good decision, u followed ur heart and did what u really want and that's what matters. and honestly as far as parents forcing you to pick one way or the other, i dont think its just indian parents. plus i dont think anyone can force u enough to go one way if u dont want to. if u have ur mind really set on something else, u will stand up for urself, cos they aren't livin ur life, u are.

 

[Dramkinola]

I didn't bother reading all of the posts.
But from what I skimmed, the Indians are more intelligent argument is pretty dumb.

If you look back at the history of the US, there is one clear reason the country has evolved into the power it is. Immigration.

The hardest working, most ambitious (generalizing) citizens of other countries migrate to the US for "opportunity" that democracy and capitalism afford us.

Every generation has had these ambitious immigrants come in, and the same is true of the Indians of our parents' generations.

They arrive in this country, but bring along their preset notions and cultural heirarchies. In India, for eons, it has been the physician who was of the highest esteemed. To become a doctor entailed the most work, most sacrifice, and rewarded with the highest respect upon completion.

It is nothing but these "prejudices" of the old world, coupled with the stable economic benefits of doctors that has driven this massive influx of Indians and other Asians into the medical field.

It is pretty much fact that if you become a doctor you won't be the richest guy in town. But Indian parents know that you definitely won't be the poorest. Plus the old world concept of "respect" in society.

Whether you were "pushed" into medicine by your parents, subtley persuaded, or enthusiastically supported, it was due to every normal parents' wish that their children not want for anything or lose out of anything this land of opportunity affords us.

I am not saying the original poster does this, but being of Indian origin, born and raised in the states, then going back to India to pursue a medical degree as hundreds of "NRIs" end up doing, I have noticed a trend of blaming parents for coersion or force.

I for one am appreciative of the ability to do what I do today because i was facilitated, and even cajoled into becoming what I am today. There were times during the course of my training where I regretted the years I felt I was "wasting," but looking back at it from where I am today, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ninja]

Can u explain this a bit more? I not so aware of the history of indians in the us (why were they allowed to immigrate??).

Thnx

Oh, I could have been clearer in my post. Indians were NOT allowed to immigrate freely to the US. Only the ones who were highly qualified were allowed to. This is different from the UK where almost anyone could immigrate to, either legally or illegally. The UK has a lot of illegal immigrants from South Asia (from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and others). The US doesn't. So, you don't see your average Indian cleaning tables or flipping burgers in New York, but you do see it in London.

The Indians (or other South Asians) who come to the US are a highly selective group (with above-average intelligence and education). It's not so in the UK. Indian Americans are not representative of India. Indians in England aren't representative either (though I secretly dream for the life of the average person in India to become more like their brothers in the US rather than the UK). The real Indians are somewhere in between.

 

[sga430]

i agree with the OP. however i do like medicine. and am glad i went into it. however i do wish i did my med school in the states sometimes. well maybe more than that.

eventhough a lot of people here want to do medicine, they want to do it in a med school in the states but get pressured to do it in india. however they dont realize they r limiting their choices in specialities the minute they land in india.

if anyone is being forced to go to india, then tell ur folks that it is harder to get a residency from an Indian med school. many IMGs dont match.

 

[ULTRON]

Thanks for sharing. I have a similar story (minus my parents forcing me into anything). I graduated with a BS in electrical engineering. My dream was to work a couple of years, then get my PhD in the same then head off to Boeing, NASA or someplace else. I mean, I was the biggest Star Trek / Star Wars fan. While working at Motorola, I realized I was making $32k a year 9-5 living in a small apartment, driving a used Jap car, and ultimately I got laid off. I was jobless and broke for a year. I began to hate engineering and came to my senses. Even LPNs make more than engineers for cryin out loud. I realised I needed a job first, then design cicruits. I'm in medical school now and keep circuits as a hobby. I'm also a part-time pianist.

ULTRON

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.