Warning to all Indian Pre-Meds: Read My Story

[oumonty]

i am an american allopathic grad doing my residency in internal medicine in the northeast US. i am indian, and despite the stereotypes, my parents never once pressured me or my siblings to go into medicine. in fact, my dad (who graduated from St.John's in Bangalore), actually tried to talk us out of it! i do have many friends who were pressured to become either doctors or engineers, but i think that's because those are the two fields where you're ensured job security (at least in the eyes of an indian parent).

as far as being an img, i know several who have been able to find good positions in residency. you might have to settle for programs that are not as well-known as BI, but many of the midwest programs are usually overlooked by the us grads just because of location, but they are still very strong programs. and yes, it is harder to find a fellowship position, but if you do well in residency and get strong letters of recommendation, you can definitely find a fellowship even in the more competitive fields like cardiology or gi.

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[Imhotep]

M3goingon4 appears to be a rich idiot. Probably not rich though!

Interestingly, for all their "problems", Punjabis (Sikhs included) have somehow managed to make Punjab the second most prosperous state (After Maharashtra) in India.

Sorry, I realize this is off-topic..but..

Dockdock, I applaud you for coming here and telling your story. I wish you the best of luck in your current and future endeavors, and am confident you will do just fine.

 

[Engin]

a post only indians or those who spent >70% of their life will understand.

the majority of indians in America are Gujurati. Gujurati's in general are hardworking people, with a keen sense. We joke that they are the Jews of the Indian community, stereotyped to have great business sense, but...unfortunately, cheap. Regardless, they are very hard working.

Who are the biggest immigrators from India to America? South Indians. This group too places a very high emphasis on education. In the south, where conditions are poorer, a common dream is to go study in America. But to be poor in India and come to America, you have to be pretty darn smart and hardworking. This further adds to the image of Indians being hard-working.

UK - mostly punjabis. The state of punjab in India is deplorable, with alcohol addiction, drug addiction, lack of education, etc. a SEVERE problem among pubjabis and punjabi-sikhs. Thus, one can wholly expect that indians in UK aren't doing nearly as well as the Indians here.
historically, during time of british rule, the sikhs were leaders of local battalions/army for england. so, they were the ones that came to england. an ex-lieutenant or whatever british equivalent, and several problems, for whatever reason, explains their situation. giving them the benefit of the doubt, and i'm not saying it's true, the Indian government may have discriminated against the punjabis, as they commonly claim, since it was a sikh that betrayed gandhi.

UK indians are not comparable to American Indians from India.
Nice try.

Your claims are not based on any kind of fact. And you fuel false stereotypes, stuff you hear which is biased and not true. What's hilarious is that you yourself admit hat you have spent 70% or greater than your life in India. How then are you qualified to make any remarks on the Indian ethnic population in America or UK, information you garnered obviously form second hand sources (and eyes), without at least attempting to use facts (I didn't say statistics, because I'll admit they are hard to find; I tried). Anyone have statistics on the rough percentages of Indian ethnicities in America?

Also, as it is known Punjab is and always will be a strong agrarian state. And a very successful one (duplicated abroad). You don't get there by being lazy. Farming is hard hard physical work. In general, lazy farmers are not successful; and Punjab is a successful farm (and up and coming IT) state.

Some things you are glazing over to make your points:

1) There is a huge population of Gujuratis in the UK. Simply dismissing UK as mostly Punjabi and thus not as intelligent as America to support your arguments is simply ignorant of this fact.

2) There is a huge population of Punjabis in America. However, unlike Gujuratis or South Indians Punjabis come from a more diverse economic background, which includes "less intelligent" blue collar backgrounds. As most South Indians are here with IT backgrounds, Gujuratis business/white collar; Punjabis come from a mix of white and blue collar backgrounds including IT, business, farming, etc. Thus, they are not all high degreed professionals, and thus might appear to be less intelligent. But this is akin to saying Indians are smarter than Americans and basing it solely on our greater graduation rates, income, etc. and ignoring the bigger picture (mostly only the educated types are allowed in America now).

3) There is a majority population of Punjabis in Canada, and the Indian population in Canada is doing quite well.

And lastly, stooping to your level, I ask, You do realize who is credited with turning around the Indian economy and garnering its status as an emerging international economic power? A Punjabi Sikh. So STFU.

 

[Dr__Robert]

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

You can call it anything you want the fact remains the same
I never got to be your Fred Astaire
You can lie to yourself and all your friends and pretend that you don't care
But circumstance gets in the way
You have so many opportunities I never had
Don't push so hard, nothing is ever easy
And this talent that you take for granted, it's a gift from god
Don't pass it up, nothing is ever easy
Are you ready to work real hard
Are you tired it's just the start
Listen to me son, I'll take you far
You can call it anything you want the fact remains the same
I never got to be your Fred Astaire

~ Lucky Boys Confusion

 

[captain bhangra]

And lastly, stooping to your level, I ask, You do realize who is credited with turning around the Indian economy and garnering its status as an emerging international economic power? A Punjabi Sikh. So STFU.

HANJI
U TELL HIM WASSUP


to m3goingon4:

who got rid of the muslim rule in india which lasted over 1000 years?

who got rid of the british? and dont even say ghandi

 

[qazwsxedc]

Well said. Esp. the last part

Your claims are not based on any kind of fact. And you fuel false stereotypes, stuff you hear which is biased and not true. What's hilarious is that you yourself admit hat you have spent 70% or greater than your life in India. How then are you qualified to make any remarks on the Indian ethnic population in America or UK, information you garnered obviously form second hand sources (and eyes), without at least attempting to use facts (I didn't say statistics, because I'll admit they are hard to find; I tried). Anyone have statistics on the rough percentages of Indian ethnicities in America?

Also, as it is known Punjab is and always will be a strong agrarian state. And a very successful one (duplicated abroad). You don't get there by being lazy. Farming is hard hard physical work. In general, lazy farmers are not successful; and Punjab is a successful farm (and up and coming IT) state.

Some things you are glazing over to make your points:

1) There is a huge population of Gujuratis in the UK. Simply dismissing UK as mostly Punjabi and thus not as intelligent as America to support your arguments is simply ignorant of this fact.

2) There is a huge population of Punjabis in America. However, unlike Gujuratis or South Indians Punjabis come from a more diverse economic background, which includes "less intelligent" blue collar backgrounds. As most South Indians are here with IT backgrounds, Gujuratis business/white collar; Punjabis come from a mix of white and blue collar backgrounds including IT, business, farming, etc. Thus, they are not all high degreed professionals, and thus might appear to be less intelligent. But this is akin to saying Indians are smarter than Americans and basing it solely on our greater graduation rates, income, etc. and ignoring the bigger picture (mostly only the educated types are allowed in America now).

3) There is a majority population of Punjabis in Canada, and the Indian population in Canada is doing quite well.

And lastly, stooping to your level, I ask, You do realize who is credited with turning around the Indian economy and garnering its status as an emerging international economic power? A Punjabi Sikh. So STFU.

 

[waanabMD]

And then we cry that white ppl are racist!
Seriously! I have read some real racist $#ytt in this thread!

and seriously Mdrappeer U R racist as hell! I mean tellin ppl that INdians are more intelligent than other groups makes me wonder, How old are u dude?
There are a gzillion INdians I know who don't care abt medicine and are goin to medicine cuz their parents want them to. My own cousin who has a Mtech and an MBA, wants to a Dr. Cuz he wants more money!
I have frnd who didn't give a damn abt medicine got shipped to India and workin on their MBBS. Those kids were not even good enough to go to a calstate.
I know someone who wants to b a mechenical engineer and got accepted @ MIT but his dad won't let him go cuz, he wants him 2 b a doctor.
and then there are ppl who really want to be Doctors. I mean we have to accept that we have a problem!
and seriuously plz don't even start with the Punju Gujju thing. I mean look at ur posts as a third person. It is idiotic!
Come on ppl can u guys/gals try top live above the stereotypes and sound a lil more mature!

 

[alok]

i am an american allopathic grad doing my residency in internal medicine in the northeast US. i am indian, and despite the stereotypes, my parents never once pressured me or my siblings to go into medicine. in fact, my dad (who graduated from St.John's in Bangalore), actually tried to talk us out of it! i do have many friends who were pressured to become either doctors or engineers, but i think that's because those are the two fields where you're ensured job security (at least in the eyes of an indian parent).

I second this. My parents never forced me into anything. In fact, my dad wanted me to go into engineering or pharmacy since both of those jobs do not have busy and hectic life as that of a doctor's.

 

[veenut]

I think the original post in this thread was a nice description of the pressures placed by Indian families on their children - I don't see why it angered so many of you. The OP did not insinuate that YOU are in medicine for the wrong reasons but that perhaps some of your Indian colleagues are. I completely agree with this statement. I've had plenty of friends who viewed medicine as an almost default career path - not a good idea given the amount of time and energy it sucks up. The OP's advice is spot-on for any of you Indian premeds that feel like you're being herded towards a career in medicine (or any other career for that matter) - grow some balls and quit being such a pushover.

That said, if you really want to do medicine for your own reasons...great! Just decide for yourself. Don't take out your insecurities on the OP just because his post hit too close to home.

 

[veenut]

My perspective probably comes from a different place than many other Indian med students. My parents were both computer nerds and wanted me to be a computer nerd as well. When I told them I was applying to med school, their response was basically "Oh...I guess that's ok too."

 

[kingsingh]

Very well said singh02.

Your claims are not based on any kind of fact. And you fuel false stereotypes, stuff you hear which is biased and not true. What's hilarious is that you yourself admit hat you have spent 70% or greater than your life in India. How then are you qualified to make any remarks on the Indian ethnic population in America or UK, information you garnered obviously form second hand sources (and eyes), without at least attempting to use facts (I didn't say statistics, because I'll admit they are hard to find; I tried). Anyone have statistics on the rough percentages of Indian ethnicities in America?

Also, as it is known Punjab is and always will be a strong agrarian state. And a very successful one (duplicated abroad). You don't get there by being lazy. Farming is hard hard physical work. In general, lazy farmers are not successful; and Punjab is a successful farm (and up and coming IT) state.

Some things you are glazing over to make your points:

1) There is a huge population of Gujuratis in the UK. Simply dismissing UK as mostly Punjabi and thus not as intelligent as America to support your arguments is simply ignorant of this fact.

2) There is a huge population of Punjabis in America. However, unlike Gujuratis or South Indians Punjabis come from a more diverse economic background, which includes "less intelligent" blue collar backgrounds. As most South Indians are here with IT backgrounds, Gujuratis business/white collar; Punjabis come from a mix of white and blue collar backgrounds including IT, business, farming, etc. Thus, they are not all high degreed professionals, and thus might appear to be less intelligent. But this is akin to saying Indians are smarter than Americans and basing it solely on our greater graduation rates, income, etc. and ignoring the bigger picture (mostly only the educated types are allowed in America now).

3) There is a majority population of Punjabis in Canada, and the Indian population in Canada is doing quite well.

And lastly, stooping to your level, I ask, You do realize who is credited with turning around the Indian economy and garnering its status as an emerging international economic power? A Punjabi Sikh. So STFU.

 

[Dramkinola]

who got rid of the muslim rule in india which lasted over 1000 years?

you were there and know first hand it was bad thing?

 

[captain bhangra]

you were there and know first hand it was bad thing?

are u actually trying to say that it was a good thing?? or am i misunderstanding what u said?
do u no how many people they tortured and killed just because they wouldnt convert...

 

[iKnome]

wow i think you guys are getting worked up about nothing. Dockdoc <the guy with the first post> is just spreading the message about making a career from what interests you. he liked physics and now hes pursuing it. hes right, I know at least 10 people who are doing medicine because its respectable in society. And dockdoc is right, there are a lot of aunties <or old school indian people> who ask what youre doing after undergrad and if youre answer is anything besides medical school, you've automatically lost their respect. Again, this probably doesnt apply to everyone but this does go on in a lot of peoples lives. So what does it all add up to? You should be yourself, do what you want and DONT give a rip about what society will think. If medicine is your interest: do it. If not: then dont. its all up to you.

dockdoc: congrats on chasing your dreams.

 

[Aquaranger]

To start off, Thank you Dock for making a very acute observation that seems to have sent many posters scrambling to deny, rationalize, and continue to ignore a reality of the Indian American community.
First off, I am Indian. In fact, I grew up in India. In addition to being a resident, I also play Tabla professionally, and am quite in touch of my heritage. That fact that I have to start off by rattling off my "Indian credentials" is a testament to how far this column has degenerated....a lot of people claiming to not be "racists," all the while implying that Indians are somehow or other superior to others. You do not have to don white hoods and lynch people to be racists..
I can write a lot..but I will limit my post to just one point for thought...There are many population based studies showing that the "second wave" immigrants, including indian american families, have not done as well as the first wave in terms of SES and education. Interestingly, genetics cannot account for this difference, because the second wave immigrants are very often related to the original immigrants. However, this group does not do as well because its members are not the doctors and engineers of the family, but the farmers and clerks that were left behind. So I think it is extremely likely that the reputation of the smart high-achieving indian in the us is based not on superior genes, but aceess to opportunities that the children of the first wave immigrants have enjoyed. Again, i agree with some of the earlier posters about the importance of politics of immigration and how they differ from country to country.
I have tried not to attack specific posters. But congratulations Dock...the passion of the responses you have generated can only occur if there was some degree of truth to the point you made! By the way, so many of the people attacking the original post have wound up conceding that there is a pressure to go into medicine in the indian community haha

 

[Aquaranger]

.

 

[Aquaranger]

I don't think this is true anymore. Surprisingly, I find Indians in India a lot more integrated when it comes to skin tone. As far as Bollywood is concerned the reason you see the people with the same skin tone isn't because there is a "fair only" requirement, but rather because it is an industry that runs on nepotism. Most of the actors/acresses today had parents who were actors/actresses.


Once again you have failed to do your research. After all take a look at your local Indian matrimonial page. Only Indian females seem to label themselves "fair"or wheatish. Why because if they are "fair" they stand a better chance of getting a spouse than their "wheatish" or brown counterparts. I have yet to see a black, hispanic or white female list themselves as light brown or fair skinned.

As usual do your research read below:

http://vsequeira.blogspot.com/2005/07/fair-lovely.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1134744,00.html

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1778824,000600010004.htm



Also note many are written by fellow Indians**

Fact: India has the highest sales of "skin fairness enhancing" cosmetics in the world. Fairness is too often equated with smartness, beauty, and even social status...i agree, just look at the matrimonials.

 

[Pansit]

Let me set everything straight here with all the "racial" comments about how Indians are more "hard-working" and even some people stating that they are "intellectually superior". I was a sociology major in undergrad and I took numerous classes on Asian American (I am Asian by the way). As someone has already eluded, the immigration laws of 1965 selectively placed emphasis only on Indians (or all immigrants for that matter) with professional skills and a high level of education. If you dont believe me, look up the immigration pattern of Indians before 1965. They worked in mediore jobs and worked as field workers. You wont find many Indian doctors and Indian medical students before 1965. This doesn't mean they were not hard-working, but you cant use the argument that just because so many of them are doctors now it is because they are more hard-working than everyone else. Those same Indian doctors pre-1965 were simply still in India and in post 1965 were in the US. Let me give an analogy for those who still dont understand:

Take the most highly educated (physians, lawyers..etc) of "white people" and put them on an island. Then take the most educated african-americans, asians, indians..etc and place them on that same island. Compare them to each other and do you think the Indian-Americans will seem any more hard-working or intelligent to the rest of the group. The fact of the matter is, you are comparing the elite group of Indians to the average group of other americans. so in that comparison, the majority of Indian-Americans seem more hard-working and intelligent. My main point is that no one race is any-more intelligent or hard-working than another race. Certain social factors make seem so when in actuality it is not. If I took a class of african-americans who graduated from harvard and had them immigrate to India, In India it will seem that african-americans are more intelligent and hard-working than the average Indian person in India. It's all about perception.

 

[GujuMD]

another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of indians who are doctors and pre-meds are encouraged by their parents to become doctors. it seems like a lot of indian parents want their children to become doctors. i am in US and this is true for my family and family friends and relatives. and i know for a fact that i am not the only one who has noticed this.

 

[ideal2002]

So many indians want to be fu.cking doctors and they are all stupid dumb fu.cks that's why they go back to india or goto the carib and sh.it just so they can make their parents happy. Why don't you guys grow some balls and do what you want to do, except medicine you fa.ggots. But I would recommend AUA as a good med school choice!

 

[sga430]

b4 going to india consider ur future as in after med school. many think of getting into med school as the end all primary objective. the primary objective is getting a residency. does going to india help u in this???? NO.

"but i like ortho and want to go to india. why not?" well be happy with family practice. u have been forewarned.


"india is quicker." do ur math and add up the years spent studying for the boards and applying.

if u have any doubt, stay in the us. if u dont get in, go to east europe or the carribean. dont blindly go to india. ur parents left it for good reason. going there is like taking a step backward.

dont get be wrong. i do like visiting india and have a lot of fun. but fun does NOT = wise career choice.

 

[NaturalInstinct]

I'm Indian American and proud of my cultures; you see I have two. And I definitely don't like/ agree with the way this thread is going.
I think it's really naive to be exceedingly proud of anything that's hurtful and demeaning to others. Plus you have to admit there are many flaws in both cultures, therefore it's always best to practice modesty.
Actually now that I think about it, this whole topic sounds like it come from the stone ages. People need to get their noses out of books and from in front of the computer and actually meet people, experience different cultures and then you'll actually see how there are more similarities than differences.
Please don't riddle this site with superiority complexes. I beg of you.
Look at the profession that you’ve chosen; I think it calls for a tad more humility as opposed to grains of salt.

 

[NaturalInstinct]

"Besides studying physics, I play in a rock band. All of these things are ridiculed by the Indian community. Perhaps you think I'm less than you now; perhaps you don't understand that I graduated from a US medical school (a top-ranked one). "


Well if it matters any, I think you are definitely very talented and happy with your career choice.
I hope that everyone else is as happy.


I'm sorry I was actually quoting dock dock.
I don't play the guitar ( I'm learning though..) I play the alto.

 

[Northerner]

I'm Indian American and proud of my cultures; you see I have two. And I definitely don't like/ agree with the way this thread is going.
I think it's really naive to be exceedingly proud of anything that's hurtful and demeaning to others. Plus you have to admit there are many flaws in both cultures, therefore it's always best to practice modesty.
Actually now that I think about it, this whole topic sounds like it come from the stone ages. People need to get their noses out of books and from in front of the computer and actually meet people, experience different cultures and then you'll actually see how there are more similarities than differences.
Please don't riddle this site with superiority complexes. I beg of you.
Look at the profession that you’ve chosen; I think it calls for a tad more humility as opposed to grains of salt.

Great post.

 

[ephemeral]

I know that maybe my request not concern to is forum........
I'm from South america, I wish to know how can I to make a postgraduate in medicine intern in India, I respect and admire a lot the culture and people from India is because that I wish to go this country.....

Thanks citizens from India.

 

[ephemeral]

I'm not in med school, I'm a sophomore biology major, 4.0, presidential scholar. I think I'm sharp enough thank you. More then likely I'm "sharper" then you. My dad is a doctor, and I know very well of the commitment and work that it takes to make it. I'm taking genetics this semester. Who the hell are you to doubt my achievements and hard work.

My statement DID NOT have anything to do with genetics, I did not imply that at all - you're the one who mentioned it.

dockdock, your theory about immigration is quite inadequate - please explain why medicine is so sought after in india and why many indian families push their kids into it. Immigration is only part of the reason. This is more of a lifestyle thing, the conditions in india are difficult to say the least, and most indians have to work hard their to make a some what decent living, it's this work ethic proliferates through the society their, kind of like survival of the fittest. Here in the states it's a lot more confortable, it's easier to not work too hard and still make a good living.

All my family lives in india (except my immediate family). I went their last summer, and it was eye-opening experience - I really wanted to help people, I couldn't stand seeing the poverty and condition of the people there. One day I saw this guy completely crippled crawling on the floor with a cup in his hand, almost everyone ignored him - I gave him the 500 RS note I had in my pocket. It's $11, no big deal - And I saw the happiness in his face......I couldn't cure his condition...and I felt totally helpless....but at least he could eat for a while. I felt great afterwards, but wanted to do more. I want to build a hospital, to help these people....it's just made my ambition to become a doctor stronger. I want to help the underserved. In the states, and in other countries, especially india.

So you see, I have goals and want to the best physician I can, to help my patients, regardless of salary.


I'm surprised that you as an Indian don't really stand up for your people, looks you're happy to put them down, or just don't plain give a crap.

And northerner, I never meant to claim superiority, I just got mad when you said indians didn't work hard - I misunderstood. And you're right, I'm talking in terms of nationality and resources/life style - not race- I'm speaking about living conditions, economic conditions, family influence etc, and how that can make people from certain countries say work harder then others - not simply from race.

I

 

[ephemeral]

I'm not in med school, I'm a sophomore biology major, 4.0, presidential scholar. I think I'm sharp enough thank you. More then likely I'm "sharper" then you. My dad is a doctor, and I know very well of the commitment and work that it takes to make it. I'm taking genetics this semester. Who the hell are you to doubt my achievements and hard work.

My statement DID NOT have anything to do with genetics, I did not imply that at all - you're the one who mentioned it.

dockdock, your theory about immigration is quite inadequate - please explain why medicine is so sought after in india and why many indian families push their kids into it. Immigration is only part of the reason. This is more of a lifestyle thing, the conditions in india are difficult to say the least, and most indians have to work hard their to make a some what decent living, it's this work ethic proliferates through the society their, kind of like survival of the fittest. Here in the states it's a lot more confortable, it's easier to not work too hard and still make a good living.

All my family lives in india (except my immediate family). I went their last summer, and it was eye-opening experience - I really wanted to help people, I couldn't stand seeing the poverty and condition of the people there. One day I saw this guy completely crippled crawling on the floor with a cup in his hand, almost everyone ignored him - I gave him the 500 RS note I had in my pocket. It's $11, no big deal - And I saw the happiness in his face......I couldn't cure his condition...and I felt totally helpless....but at least he could eat for a while. I felt great afterwards, but wanted to do more. I want to build a hospital, to help these people....it's just made my ambition to become a doctor stronger. I want to help the underserved. In the states, and in other countries, especially india.

So you see, I have goals and want to the best physician I can, to help my patients, regardless of salary.


I'm surprised that you as an Indian don't really stand up for your people, looks you're happy to put them down, or just don't plain give a crap.

And northerner, I never meant to claim superiority, I just got mad when you said indians didn't work hard - I misunderstood. And you're right, I'm talking in terms of nationality and resources/life style - not race- I'm speaking about living conditions, economic conditions, family influence etc, and how that can make people from certain countries say work harder then others - not simply from race.

Is terrible this forum, own of a man that use a nickname as "north"... The nation India it has been victim and the worse thing of everything, nondefendant, except by Kapil MD and Drjustdo...
Only can I say that a noble nation is constructed for great minds without concerning color, race, economic position. Is as well as has come constructing India...
Definitively a person who is created great by her race and that does not consider sublimates it the thought does not mean anything. Intelligence makes the history not the body....Unfortunately often we are ourselves forced to migrate in search of resources, but glorious the man that does not forget its roots and defends like a mother to them...

 

[jon stewart]

gujudoc...i didnt know you were going for a masters degreee...i thought you were applying this cycle?

 

[jon stewart]

I've posted that all over the other parts of SDN in the past when people have asked so I'm surprised that you didn't know that.

haha i see. Well i took a sdn vacation and i only recently came back to the site!

 

[Northerner]

That's precisely my point. That Indians aren't superior but just have more resources because of immigrant backgrounds being from more educated families in the past.

Well, that's not the whole story.

You could probably safely make the generalization that Indian immigrants to America TEND to be more ambitious/educated, but not moreso than their American counterparts. That is, the families of an indian med student in the U.S. are probably very similar in education/support/resources to a white American med student's family, and so on. To simplify even further, the fact is that MED STUDENTS as a group tend to have certain familial structures/motivation/personality. Some are white, some are asian, some are middle eastern, some are black, some are indian, and that's great. It is possible that indians in America have more of the...positive "resources" to which people are referring, WHEN COMPARED TO average/below average Americans or average/below average Indians, or average/below average people of any race, because of the reason you stated: there is selection bias for more driven/accomplished indians to emmigrate to America. I think this is what you were saying? This does not mean, however, that indian med students can be in any way shown or suggested with any legitimacy to be "better" or have "better" resources than their classmates (colleagues and equals) of any race. The fact that I said they are NOT BETTER does not equate with saying they are worse, as someone earlier misinterpreted.

 

[Northerner]

If you put other people, regardless of race, in the same situation most of us grew up in - they would be just as successful as you.

And are. Of every race. In every medical school in the country.

Good post.

 

[generationX]

I agree with the issue in the topic. I feel for you as I have been in the same boat. My grand father went to medical school in days of british rule , so did my father and I ended up making it a family tradition. My only saving grace is I didnt know what i wanted to do so I went along with the opportunity I had at that time. I decided to make a lemonade. Still its a draining experience. I am sensitive to people's sufferings and all day long you see patients who are suffering.

Doctors in India have enjoyed a higher social status till now. In small towns and non metropolitan area, most cars that you used to see belonged to doctors. It was after eighties that scenario has changed.

Don't we get only one stab at our education? Like in Gujarat after you pass 10th std you have to pass 12th std in exactly two years time ( a drop or retry will disqualify you for direct admission). So you must be a topper or else you go pre-medical entrance way which is mother of all entrance exams. normally people take 2-3 years of preparation before they get a break through. In some states pre med is a must. Payment seats are not being talked about here.

Our hospitals are not as advanced as in US. We rely on clinical diagnosis and symptomatology more than anything. In my manual of clinical medicine, the aouthor said after a lot of experience medicine becomes an art; intuition. Arent we at an advantage here? I have heard from a well travelled and learned friend that in USA doctors rely on investigations (pratly to save their as* from subsequent lawsuits which may ensue) and yet somehow it just doesnt feel right. Still many fail to diagonse properly. Or so I have heard. I would trust my life with an indian doctor any day, except for those who got into medicine in quota system.

And no it has nothing to do with being Indian. I dont think people of Indian origin who grew up in USA or elsewhere should consider themselves in the same boat as Indian doctors excet for family pressue to pursue a career in medicine. You can go into medicine or get out anytime you like. Its not the same here.

 

[drrinoo]

Wow THERE ARE INDIAN JEWS??????????

Jews have been in India for at least 2 thousand years....

India is arguably the only country in world history that has not persecuted the Jewish people.
Indians should take great pride in the religious tolerance of India

 

[Northerner]

Jews have been in India for at least 2 thousand years....

India is arguably the only country in world history that has not persecuted the Jewish people.
Indians should take great pride in the religious tolerance of India

I don't know that you can make the statement that India is the only country not to persecute the Jewish people.

And it may be overextending yourselves to claim superior tolerance. What about the caste system?

 

[drrinoo]

religious tolerance is different from socioeconomic tolerance.

the ability to practice your religious or other dogmatic beliefs, as a minority, in a country that has witnessed its share of wars, invasions, and blood shed is a feat unto itself.

I am not foolish to think that religious tolerance is so widespread that miscegenation occurs...the economist carried out a miscegenation index and one of the north european countries ranked highest.....nonetheless, most religions can practice their beliefs in India without being ridiculed as pagans...

Gautam Buddha and Mahavir (Jain Monk) were contemporaries and protested some of the Hindu acts of sacrifice and the caste system. They both espoused and professed views that significantly countered the prevailing views of Hinduism..but they used non-violent means....to this day, both religions have survived. I do not know how a non-violent movement protesting a majority religion can survive in its country of origin and not be exiled?

India is a country that celebrates and respects the holidays of a large number of different religions

The caste system is a very tragic and unfortunate consequence in Indian history. Let us not forget that slavery and indentured servitude were common in Greece and Egypt at the time. Also, do you think the Great Wall of China would have been built by the prince and princesses of China? No, indentured peasantry spanning a generation enabled the Chinese emperors to build the Great Wall.

In India, they called a spade a spade....and were at least smart enough to recognize that the lowest caste members were humans unlike the way slaves were treated in Europe (as animals).

 

[Northerner]

religious tolerance is different from socioeconomic tolerance.

the ability to practice your religious or other dogmatic beliefs, as a minority, in a country that has witnessed its share of wars, invasions, and blood shed is a feat unto itself.

I am not foolish to think that religious tolerance is so widespread that miscegenation occurs...the economist carried out a miscegenation index and one of the north european countries ranked highest.....nonetheless, most religions can practice their beliefs in India without being ridiculed as pagans...

Gautam Buddha and Mahavir (Jain Monk) were contemporaries and protested some of the Hindu acts of sacrifice and the caste system. They both espoused and professed views that significantly countered the prevailing views of Hinduism..but they used non-violent means....to this day, both religions have survived. I do not know how a non-violent movement protesting a majority religion can survive in its country of origin and not be exiled?

India is a country that celebrates and respects the holidays of a large number of different religions

The caste system is a very tragic and unfortunate consequence in Indian history. Let us not forget that slavery and indentured servitude were common in Greece and Egypt at the time. Also, do you think the Great Wall of China would have been built by the prince and princesses of China? No, indentured peasantry spanning a generation enabled the Chinese emperors to build the Great Wall.

In India, they called a spade a spade....and were at least smart enough to recognize that the lowest caste members were humans unlike the way slaves were treated in Europe (as animals).

If you say so. Sounds pretty crappy over there for members of lower castes to me. And as I understand it, the caste system is entrenched in Hinduism.

And Hindus & Muslims are pretty openly crappy to each other as well. Not to impugn the merit of the likes of Gandhi, but non-violent movements against majority religions happen successfully all over the world, by the way. I'm not arguing that any country in particular is better or worse than India, merely that I don't think they're necessarily as lily white pristine as you make them out to be. Nor do I think they necessarily do better or worse than many countries in many social aspects. Obviously this is a very multifaceted topic and we're speaking far too generally to really discuss anything substantively.

 

[Meatwad]

Realize tha although many Hindus adhere to a caste system, it really has nothing to do with Hinduism in and of itself. Hinduism isn't even a religion, as I'm sure you know; it's a term used by us in the West to try and group together an extremely broad and loosely related group of religions. Whereas Catholics all read the same holy book, follow the same rules laid down by the Pope, listen to the same readings at mass, etc., Hindus in one town will have beliefs and worship a deity totally different than the Hindus one town over.

Saying the caste system originated in "Hinduism," whatever that is, is erroneous. It's analogous to saying Islam is a violent religion. Many terrorists may be Muslim, but that does not imply that the religion itself is violent. Many Hindus may follow the caste, but that does not imply the caste system itself stemmed from Hinduism.

 

[Northerner]

Realize tha although many Hindus adhere to a caste system, it really has nothing to do with Hinduism in and of itself. Hinduism isn't even a religion, as I'm sure you know; it's a term used by us in the West to try and group together an extremely broad and loosely related group of religions. Whereas Catholics all read the same holy book, follow the same rules laid down by the Pope, listen to the same readings at mass, etc., Hindus in one town will have beliefs and worship a deity totally different than the Hindus one town over.

Saying the caste system originated in "Hinduism," whatever that is, is erroneous. It's analogous to saying Islam is a violent religion. Many terrorists may be Muslim, but that does not imply that the religion itself is violent. Many Hindus may follow the caste, but that does not imply the caste system itself stemmed from Hinduism.

It's still an Indian system, which is the debate at hand.

 

[anjali1995]

never do what your not intrested in...i went to india it was my decision nd i convienced my parents for it..i wanted to be a doctor ..but couldnt udjust with ppl over there staying in hostel ..but that 1 and half year in india after seeing the problems of the poor in that place..where they cant affort treatment orr any medical services living in slums...i saw those ppl with my eyes...many situations i saw like that gave me a goal to do free service to the poor ...but that time it was too late...i have wasted so much time from past 7 months...when i came through this goal it was already time for my final exam..i studied so hard night outs and barely slept for 4 hours for last 3 months...but results failed with 1 point...i couldnt take it and went through a situation where i commited sucide..later after 2 months i decided to come back to america and start my course again...but going to india really changed me and gave me a goal to be a doctor for a reason..

 

[ULTRON]

Very interesting story; thanks for sharing. Next step is forced marriage....if you don't get married, you could get killed.

I'm new to this forum, and I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this thread, but anyway--

There's a lot of Indian-American pre-meds on this forum who are posting about going to India for medical school. There's also a strong "parental-control" sentiment which comes through almost subliminally...hell, there's a thread where a person directly asks what other Indians' parents think about the prestige of the DO degree!

So, I'd like to share my story with the forum. Hopefully, it'll spark at least a tiny flame of independence in at least one person.

My parents are from India; they immigrated here before I was born. I was born and raised in the US. No one in my family is a doctor.

As far back as I can remember--even when I was in kindergarten--my mother has been shoving me into medicine. Both of my parents strongly discouraged any interest I showed in other subjects, unless it could be used on a med school application. They told me that I will be a doctor, because it is the most noble profession, prestige, money, blah blah blah.

I have never had any interest in helping people; I have never had any interest in medical science.

I suspect many of you Indian pre-meds don't have any true interest in medicine--rather, it's the culture amongst Indians and their social gatherings that you must become a doctor, or else you're nothing.

Back to my story: during high school, my parents made me apply to 6-yr programs. I was just a kid--brainwashed, emotionally abused, told day after day that any non-medical interest is "evil." So, I sent out the apps, and I got into a 6 year program on the east coast.

I wanted to be a physics major in college--it was my dream to develop new theories in physics. But, in the 6 year program, I had to be a bio major.

After those 2 measly years of "college," I started med school. While I performed well above average, I hated every minute of it. I took a year off after 2nd year of school, and my parents said I was killing them by doing so. I spent that year "finding myself," working full-time, traveling the world, fully supporting myself.

So I graduated med school this year, and I didn't apply into residency. I'm done.

I've been cheated out of a true college experience, though I did rectify those mistakes...I've lived a more adventurous, fulfilling life than most people I know, all thanks to "waking up" to what had been done to me.

I'm now in college again, studying for a physics degree, and then I'll go to physics grad school.

It makes me cringe to be around large groups of Indian college kids--I know first-hand the pressure exerted by the community. Here's how the hierarchy goes: MD -> DO -> Dentist -> PA -> PT/OT -> Death

So, Indian kids, it's OK to be yourself. It's OK to say you don't want to be a doctor.

And to those of you who sincerely do wish to become doctors, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

 

[tylus]

All the hate is unwarranted. OP good on you. Always follow what you want to do. The message OP is sending is clear - societal pressures may lead you to choosing an undesired path. Don't bring race into the mix. There is a high demand for medical degrees amongst Indians, but that reflects the society and not the race.

The societal pressures as stated by OP is real and we should not skirt the issue. There will be many people who, like OP, gets a medical degree only to realise that it's not what he wants. Not everyone has the ability to afford another round of tuition fees for a different course and stick to practicing medicine. Probably isn't good for both him and the patient..

Thanks for being bold enough and having the guts to share your story. Hope everything is going on well for you. This needs to have a wider reach.