Was I straight up lied to?

[IMtern]

I'm only now getting over not matching and needing to scramble. I was lucky enough to scramble into a residency in what I had originally applied to (IM). So even though the only difference is that I'll be doing my residency at a place I never expected to there's this nagging question that I would like cleared up.

I'm an average US med student, average scores, no research, average grades on rotations. I was geographically restricted so I didn't apply to many places. I got 11 interviews and due to scheduling went on 8 of them. I thought my interviews went well and I ranked all 8 places. I got post interview calls and emails from a few of the places, including from my top choice and that is the one I'm most puzzled about.

I got a very positive, personalized email from the PD of my #1 choice after my interview. I sent a thank you reply, to which he offered a second look, which I accept since it was not that far away. At the end of the second look I met with the PD again and he again expressed his interest in having me as a resident and I told him that his program was my #1 choice. With that we shook hands and he said these exact words: "I will see to it that you are ranked at the top of our list". Awesome, so I thought.

Anyway, comes match day and I go unmatched. The first place I look up on the unmatched list is my #1 choice and they have unfilled spots! So I call and get the PC on the phone and tell her I'm unmatched and she says she will tell the PD. As soon as I hang up I also send an email to the PD. I get no call or email back. Meanwhile I'm frantically calling around other unfilled places as are the people helping me scramble. Every so often I call back my #1 back but now the line is busy. Finally a few hours later I get the PC again and she says the PD is in the process of selecting scramblers and I should know by the end of the day. I never hear back from them again and watch as their unfilled spots disappear off the list. Towards the end of the day I get a call from a place I never interviewed at offering me a spot and I take it after a brief interview with the PD.

Does me going unmatched and my #1 choice going unfilled mean that they didn't rank me at all? If that's so, does it then mean the PD shook my hand, looked me right in the eye, and straight up lied to me when he said what he did about ranking me at the top of their list? Compounded by the fact that before the match he would return my emails the same day, sometimes within the hour, but after the match he never emailed me back.

Did the PD simply lie to me or was it something else, like maybe a resident during my second look taking a disliking to me and influencing the PD to change his mind? I thought I got along well with all of the residents during my interview and second look, but I suppose you never know. The reason I say that is because after my second look I sent thank you emails to a few of the residents and never received a response back from any of them even though they were real friendly with me during my interview and second look.

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[lanzarlaluna]

First of all, I am sorry this happened to you, but you were fortunate to scramble successfully. You are correct in determining that they did not rank you. If you rank the program and have to scramble, and the program goes unfilled, then they did not rank you. I see no harm in calling the PD to see what happened, but be very professional and do not burn any bridges. Best of luck to you.

 

[smq123]

Does me going unmatched and my #1 choice going unfilled mean that they didn't rank me at all?

If both you and the PD at your #1 choice filled out your respective match lists correctly, then yes, they probably did not rank you at all.

 

[ResidentMD]

First of all, I am sorry this happened to you, but you were fortunate to scramble successfully. You are correct in determining that they did not rank you. If you rank the program and have to scramble, and the program goes unfilled, then they did not rank you. I see no harm in calling the PD to see what happened, but be very professional and do not burn any bridges. Best of luck to you.

Is this commonly done by people who believe that a certain PD has burned them (like the OP)? I am interested to know.

Also, this thread should be made into a sticky to warn future applicants . I see such threads every year.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

As a PD, I am highly distressed by this. As others have mentioned, the only way that both you and the program end up in the scramble is that either one of you (or both) didn't rank each other. Assuming your rank list went in correctly, they didn't rank you.

And, you can be absolutely certain of that. Here's why -- let's say they meant to put you at the top of their list, but they screwed up and ranked the wrong person. They end up in the scramble. You call them for a spot. If they had wanted you, they would have signed you in a second. No need for an interview (you've already done two). For a PD in the scramble, this would be a gift from heaven. Spot filled, you're happy, done.

So, they didn't rank you. The question is why. I can't imagine that they would know they are not ranking you and then invite you for a second look, tell you that they are ranking you at the top of their list. That would be so cruel, and a waste of everyone's time and energy. So I expect something happened on your second visit, or they got some other piece of information later, or something like that.

I would definitely ask. be polite, not angry. Get the anger out first, don't lose your temper no matter what happens. Say that there are "no hard feelings" (even if there are) and that you are "very happy with the spot you got" (even if you're not). Simply mention that you'll be applying for fellowships / jobs / etc in the future, they obviously didn't rank you, and so there must have been something that really concerned them and you want the 100% honest truth, even if it hurts.

 

[Apollyon]

If both you and the PD at your #1 choice filled out your respective match lists correctly, then yes, they probably did not rank you at all.

There is no "probably"; as aPD said, if you ranked them, and they didn't fill, you weren't ranked.

 

[maceo]

As a PD, I am highly distressed by this. As others have mentioned, the only way that both you and the program end up in the scramble is that either one of you (or both) didn't rank each other. Assuming your rank list went in correctly, they didn't rank you.

And, you can be absolutely certain of that. Here's why -- let's say they meant to put you at the top of their list, but they screwed up and ranked the wrong person. They end up in the scramble. You call them for a spot. If they had wanted you, they would have signed you in a second. No need for an interview (you've already done two). For a PD in the scramble, this would be a gift from heaven. Spot filled, you're happy, done.

So, they didn't rank you. The question is why. I can't imagine that they would know they are not ranking you and then invite you for a second look, tell you that they are ranking you at the top of their list. That would be so cruel, and a waste of everyone's time and energy. So I expect something happened on your second visit, or they got some other piece of information later, or something like that.

I would definitely ask. be polite, not angry. Get the anger out first, don't lose your temper no matter what happens. Say that there are "no hard feelings" (even if there are) and that you are "very happy with the spot you got" (even if you're not). Simply mention that you'll be applying for fellowships / jobs / etc in the future, they obviously didn't rank you, and so there must have been something that really concerned them and you want the 100% honest truth, even if it hurts.

Just drop it.. move on.. forget about it. go on to your program and thats it.. you dont need to know what happened.. it happened and everyone is happy in the end dont go digging where you dont need to be digging

 

[Law2Doc]

Just drop it.. move on.. forget about it. go on to your program and thats it.. you dont need to know what happened.. it happened and everyone is happy in the end dont go digging where you dont need to be digging

I agree. While I'm sure you'd love to really know why they played you this way, no good can come of it. You will end up with hurt feelings when they tell you you rubbed X the wrong way or whatever the real reason was (if they tell you). Not worth knowing. You know you were good enough for a second look but that something turned them off upon reflection of you on that day. As for why the PD misled you, this is the reason the NRMP has rules discouraging programs from agreeing to rank people to match and the like. If you assume programs are following the rules, you filter out all this talk as fluff. You scrambled into a program in your desired specialty -- you are now at a program that was actually happy to have you fill their empty spot. Probably a blessing in disguise. Run with it and don't look back.

 

[Rollo]

Damn this sounds pretty awful. Sorry to hear this happened to you OP.

Why would the PD do such a thing?

 

[Moonglow]

Sounds like you went unranked - their decision to do so may have been made after the second interview, for whatever reason. For now, drop all interest in finding out "what happened", after July 1 you will not care anyway.

 

[peppy]

Sorry to hear that happened to you. Unless something really horrible happened at your second look visit, I'd guess the PD says that kind of thing to everyone to try to recruit people. They don't want their program to go unfilled almost as much as we don't want to have to scramble.
Having a great PD makes residency a lot better, so look at it this way, it might be a blessing in disguise to not be working for someone who can lie to people like that.

 

[sam1999]

Did you interact with residents or PC on your second visit? Sometime people say something stupid which might have been reported back to PD. or were there any residents who did you like you or were displeased to see you.

Once a PC told me (she might be exaggeratting) that her PD asks her opinion about candidates (like what kind of person she found him/her) in whom he is really interested.

Some people are very snob and don't treat secretaries/PC very well.

 

[IMtern]

The only thing I can think of that stuck out was one of the 3rd year residents asked me where else I had interviewed. Then she began bad mouthing one of the places I mentioned. Saying stuff like it was a crappy program, mentioning some of the attendings there and how bad they were, and other stuff to diss the place. That place was actually my #2 choice but I didn't say that. I just listed a few places where I interviewed and she jumped all over that one. I neither joined in the criticizing of that program or defended it, just played it off and kind of changed the subject.

I know I should be content that I at least scrambled into the same specialty but the thing is my #1 was a very strong program with in house fellowships and a strong track record of putting their grads into tough fellowships. The one I scrambled into is more of an average community type residency with a mediocre fellowship record. I just hate to think that something I'm not even aware of happened during my second look that lead them to not rank me. Especially given it was the PD who invited me for a second look and I felt like I would come across as disinterested if I turned down his offer, especially when I resided a short distance away.

 

[Guile]

OP, sounds like you played everything the right way. I really feel bad for you. What a terrible situation. At least you matched which not everyone can say.

I would still want to know what happened though. Just for curiosity's sake, at the very least. I feel like you almost deserve an explanation following the guarantee of being ranked.

 

[Buzz Me]

To be cynical for just a moment, never believe anything the PD tells you after an interview...follow-up letters, emails, phone calls, second looks, etc.

Remember, all that matters to them (due to the relatively new algorithm being applicant-oriented instead of program-oriented) is that their top choices rank their program as highly as possible. You only have to worry about ranking whichever programs YOU like as high as possible, so it shouldn't make a difference which programs are kissing your butt. Sad, but true.

So to the above poster: there are no "guarantees" (unless it's a written contract, like a pre-match offer).

Back to the original topic, yes, if you ranked that program and they went unfilled, that means they didn't rank you.

 

[RussianJoo]

yep this is another example of what commonly happens during the match. There are a lot of PD's out there that play mind tricks or straight out lie just to take advantage of the situation. It really sucks that it happens, but it's very common.

I almost think that with some places the nicier they are to you the lower they're going to rank you or not rank you at all.


It sounds like the program that didn't rank you and the one you scrambled into are roughly in the same location and thus the PD's probably know eachother and you'll probably attend the same regional confrences. One way you can get back at that program is by kicking butt in residency, and working on some great research/publications. Then when you're presenting your research at a regional conference and that programs PD comes up to you, you can politely remind him of what happened, and how he missed out on a great resident. He probably won't remember who you are but still, I am sure he'll be a little upset thinking that you could have done this great research at his program and he could be getting credit for it.

Whatever you do, don't get angry and email or call that progarm, medicine is a very small community and everyone knows eachother. You don't want to burn any bridges, always be polite, nice and professional even though many others aren't.

 

[cali-ob]

this is unfortunately, all too common and reminds me of my match season a few years back. I and many friends all had that program that seemed so intereted. Letters, emails, "you're ranked to match" "we definitely want you here" etc, etc, all came back with either failure to match at all, or for the luckier ones, moving down farther on the rank list.
Every PD is not like aPD here on SDN. I wouldn't trust anything anyone says during interview season.

what's funny is these PDs will have the nerve to talk to their residents about professionalism and the like. as if they have any idea what it's really all about.

I'm sorry you learned a valuable lesson the hard way. And I hope others learn from your post. Don't believe anything they say.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I have to agree with the posters that said to just move on. The dude (or dudette) straight up lied to your face while shaking your hand, why would you even trust their explanation? Unless they were like, "we heard you liked to club baby seals in your free time," and you were like "oh yeah, I forgot about that, good call."

That's just a lack of personal integrity, and it's distressing. I wouldn't burn any bridges, but I would also stay far, far away from that program as long as that PD is there.

Also, if there's one thing I've learned, it's to be wary of people "teaching" professionalism. Those that have it, live it, and teach by example. They don't give lectures on it. And those that have it don't need to use it as a blunt-force weapon, either.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Add another faculty member siding with aPD on this.

You need closure and the program needs to fess up to you for your sake and theirs. Make the call. Be VERY polite. They'll know they mishandled this.

 

[eforest]

This whole thing sounds very strange- not only the thing about the program you ranked number one, but that you did not match after getting so much positive feedback from multiple program directors.

Do you have any red flags on your application that may have come up later? Do you have any red flags at all? Did you pass the boards on the first try? Have you failed a clerkship? Do you have a criminal record?

And, most importantly, did you lie on your application? And if so, was it something that may have been uncovered?

 

[Buzz Me]

One way you can get back at that program is by kicking butt in residency, and working on some great research/publications. Then when you're presenting your research at a regional conference and that programs PD comes up to you, you can politely remind him of what happened, and how he missed out on a great resident.

Ah, the ol' "the best revenge is living well" tactic?

Remember, everyone, you should only rank the programs based on how much YOU like them. Do not rank based on how you think the programs are ranking, or based on the number of follow-up emails/calls/letters you get. If you're letting those things affect your rank list, then the PDs' plans to trick you have worked. It does nothing for improving your chances of matching.

 

[Speculatrix]

This is a terrible situation, I'm so so sorry My future program is very notorious for specious communications / phone calls from its various interview panels, and although as an intern I probably won't be able to do anything, once I climb the ranks I will try my best to make sure this does not happen to future candidates. I think you need some closure, but tread lightly if possible.

 

[doc20]

match is a biggest sham, and just be glad its over, everyone involved in the position of power play with innocent med student's feelings just to disappoint us later. its over, go through the 5 phases of denial, anger, bargaining, depression & acceptance and you be ready to start you residency july 1

 

[peppy]

I know I should be content that I at least scrambled into the same specialty but the thing is my #1 was a very strong program with in house fellowships and a strong track record of putting their grads into tough fellowships. The one I scrambled into is more of an average community type residency with a mediocre fellowship record.

Your #1 may very possibly have more Type A people who were gunning for a high powered fellowship all along and it's possible that you will do just as well as long as you put in the same amount of work. This might be your chance to stand out and shine.

 

[Substance]

Nothing is more insulting than having your calls screened and your attempts at communication ignored.

Whoever this PD is, he sounds like a real loser, and he sure doesn't like you.

I'd be tempted to tell him to go straight to hell, but given how much of a snake he seems like, doing so would likely make you incur his slimy, vindictive and petty wrath for the remainder of your residency. You don't know who he knows, and its clear he can be as slick as a salesman. He will use this against you if you give him a reason(and maybe if you don't).

Steer clear. Stop trying. Just accept the fact that he's a douche-*** and move on.

The match is kind of like dating. How asinine.

WTF? The word F A G is censored? Who came up with that ******ed idea?

 

[HIJay]

i was in a similar situation also. thought not quite as bad as the OP. I had one of my LOR from the program, rotated there as a 4th yr and interviewed there. I thought i did quite well on the interview, ranked the program #1 and ended up not matching and the program had 1 spot left for the scramble. despite multiple attempts to call and tell the PD that i wanted their program and ranked it #1, still didnt get in.
managed to scrambled into prelim surg (not the field i wanted originally) and will reapply again this yr

 

[NotAProgDirector]

To the OP:

Sounds like you've got lots of conflicting advice here. Two camps, the "Call, be polite, see what happens, you have nothing to lose" group, and "Get over it, this will only prolong the grieving process and not yield any helpful information, you can really cause a problem if you lose your temper" group. It comes down to how important this is for closure for you. There isn't a right answer.

i was in a similar situation also. thought not quite as bad as the OP. I had one of my LOR from the program, rotated there as a 4th yr and interviewed there. I thought i did quite well on the interview, ranked the program #1 and ended up not matching and the program had 1 spot left for the scramble. despite multiple attempts to call and tell the PD that i wanted their program and ranked it #1, still didnt get in.
managed to scrambled into prelim surg (not the field i wanted originally) and will reapply again this yr

I see this as a very different situation. I almost always interview any outside rotator at our program. I see it as an issue of politeness, and will only not interview someone if there is absolutely no chance of them being ranked. Once interviewed, they get compared to all of the people who we otherwise chose to interview, some get ranked, some don't. I assume that people would rather get an interview with a chance of being ranked than not being interviewed at all. Although you might be unhappy with their decision, it seems totally reasonable.

Also, if they chose not to rank you it's no surprise you didn't get a spot in the scramble. Not being ranked = "I'd rather get someone in the scramble", else they would have put you at the bottom of the list. I certainly understand applying and trying to get the spot, but I wouldn;t have been hopeful it would work out.

 

[PostCall]

if u interview and rank a program but go unmatched and that program also goes unfilled then there's no point in calling them during the scramble asking for one of their unfilled spots. by not ranking u they're telling u that they would rather risk going unfilled and finding somebody else during the scramble rather than match with u. that is why u get the cold shoulder treatment if u try to contact them...they're not interested in u anymore.

 

[HIJay]

fair enough with that reasoning. so my question now is this, should i even bother reapplying for that same program again for 2011?

 

[captaincrunch]

To the OP:

Sounds like you've got lots of conflicting advice here. Two camps, the "Call, be polite, see what happens, you have nothing to lose" group, and "Get over it, this will only prolong the grieving process and not yield any helpful information, you can really cause a problem if you lose your temper" group. It comes down to how important this is for closure for you. There isn't a right answer.



I see this as a very different situation. I almost always interview any outside rotator at our program. I see it as an issue of politeness, and will only not interview someone if there is absolutely no chance of them being ranked. Once interviewed, they get compared to all of the people who we otherwise chose to interview, some get ranked, some don't. I assume that people would rather get an interview with a chance of being ranked than not being interviewed at all. Although you might be unhappy with their decision, it seems totally reasonable.

Also, if they chose not to rank you it's no surprise you didn't get a spot in the scramble. Not being ranked = "I'd rather get someone in the scramble", else they would have put you at the bottom of the list. I certainly understand applying and trying to get the spot, but I wouldn;t have been hopeful it would work out.

To aPD:

A lot of program directors do the so-called "courtesy interview" for students who rotate at a program or who attended the medical school. I wonder, however, if this is a good idea, particularly at competitive programs. Medical students can only tell one program "You're my number one," unless they're willing to lie, so it doesn't help students much to go on an interview at an awesome program that they can't realistically attain. In fact, it might prevent them from getting their number two spot, since they can't promise to rank the program highest. While granting an interview might seem polite, it might actually be doing the student a favor to be denied an interview, even if it causes some hurt feelings initially.

Any thoughts?

 

[LEVAMISOLE]

I had two different PD's tell me I was highly ranked. I was told by some of the residents that I'm in and they were looked forward to working with me. Well comes match day I dont get matched!! I'm like WTF! Well I scrambled and got a good spot but still everyone lied to me. Its easy to say just move on and forget about it. Trust me its not easy. I warn anyone that is going for the 2011 match to NOT TRUST ANYONE they are all Fing liars!

 

[ForbiddenComma]

The "courtesy interview" does not bother me. What bothers me are the PDs who promise the world when they know full well they have no intention of ever ranking the applicant.

Why do they do this? What is the benefit for themselves? The students will figure out soon enough that they were lied to. Why would you want a student to rank you #1 if you are not going to rank them?

I had this situation with my #1 pick, although fortunately my BS detector saw through the lying PD's shallow dog-and-pony show and I was utterly unsurprised on match day. If it weren't for the program itself and its (other) attendings, I wouldn't have bothered to rank this program at all. A girl I know was more trusting though and was honestly shocked at this douchebag's duplicity.

To the OP: I don't understand why, but a lot of PD's simply are lying douchebags. They enjoy the act of lying. They lie even when there is no material benefit to themselves or their program. I'm sure this corresponds to an Axis II disorder of some sort. Tell you what: I'm now glad I won't be serving 3 years under such an individual, and you should be too.

 

[Test Boy]

This whole thing sounds very strange- not only the thing about the program you ranked number one, but that you did not match after getting so much positive feedback from multiple program directors.

Do you have any red flags on your application that may have come up later? Do you have any red flags at all? Did you pass the boards on the first try? Have you failed a clerkship? Do you have a criminal record?

And, most importantly, did you lie on your application? And if so, was it something that may have been uncovered?

i agree. there must be something else to it cause it's really unusual to go unmatched when you've ranked 8 places in a specialty that is not super competitive. perhaps one of the LOR wasn't that good?

 

[ForbiddenComma]

i agree. there must be something else to it cause it's really unusual to go unmatched when you've ranked 8 places in a specialty that is not super competitive. perhaps one of the LOR wasn't that good?

If he did have any lethal red flags, then the PDs should not have promised him the world.

Personally, I am beginning to wonder about what is going on with IM programs these days. The one at my home school has only recently become as malignant as glioblastoma.

 

[eforest]

If he did have any lethal red flags, then the PDs should not have promised him the world.

Personally, I am beginning to wonder about what is going on with IM programs these days. The one at my home school has only recently become as malignant as glioblastoma.

I'm wondering about a lethal red flag that was discovered late. The whole situation is so weird in the OP's case.

The whole match game just sucks. I didn't get an interview at a prelim medicine program where I rotated as a third year and again as a sub-I, earning honors. Then, at my # 1 choice for prelim, I wrote an email to the PD expressing interest and got the "I look forward to working with you in July" response. I ended up at my # 2. I wasn't too upset, my dean told me not to take too much stock in such emails/ calls. I figured that the PD probably ranked me but not as highly as was implied. That particular prelim program is pretty popular so I would have been over the moon had I matched there, but I love # 2 as well.

As for my # 1 advanced program- the PD said pretty much the same thing "I look forward to working with you..." I matched into that program.

I'm sorry for what happened to the OP, that really sucks!

 

[peppy]

fair enough with that reasoning. so my question now is this, should i even bother reapplying for that same program again for 2011?

I wouldn't try again at that program. I think it's best to focus on finding new programs for next time. You may end up realizing there is somewhere else out there that is a better fit for you. best of luck.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I guess I'm just bitter because outside of the PD himself, the rest of the program was so good! Grr

Anyway, things worked out in the end. OP, give your new home a shot for a year. There's always residentswap if you want to go somewhere else for PGY-2.

 

[Guile]

if u interview and rank a program but go unmatched and that program also goes unfilled then there's no point in calling them during the scramble asking for one of their unfilled spots. by not ranking u they're telling u that they would rather risk going unfilled and finding somebody else during the scramble rather than match with u. that is why u get the cold shoulder treatment if u try to contact them...they're not interested in u anymore.

Here, have a "yo-"

 

[Guile]

I'm wondering about a lethal red flag that was discovered late. The whole situation is so weird in the OP's case.

The whole match game just sucks. I didn't get an interview at a prelim medicine program where I rotated as a third year and again as a sub-I, earning honors. Then, at my # 1 choice for prelim, I wrote an email to the PD expressing interest and got the "I look forward to working with you in July" response. I ended up at my # 2. I wasn't too upset, my dean told me not to take too much stock in such emails/ calls. I figured that the PD probably ranked me but not as highly as was implied. That particular prelim program is pretty popular so I would have been over the moon had I matched there, but I love # 2 as well.

As for my # 1 advanced program- the PD said pretty much the same thing "I look forward to working with you..." I matched into that program.

I'm sorry for what happened to the OP, that really sucks!

I'm honestly surprised that no program names have come out thus far. Personally I would want to put the word out on programs that promise applicants a match and give them the shaft if this happened to me.

 

[HIJay]

i guess we the applicants have more professionalism than some of the PDs out there.

 

[Gastrapathy]

This is a disturbing thread. The circumstances described by the OP should lead to the PD getting fired. However, we all know that isn't going to happen.

The issue for the OP is fellowship selection. If he wants a fellowship, it would be nice to know if there was something that scared them off at the last minute. My approach would be to have a IM attending mentor call the PD and ask what happened. I would approach it with something like, "I was really surprised when IMtern had to scramble. He was so pleased to get invited back for a second interview at your program and I just figured that had to be a good sign. I was way more worried about a couple of my other students and then he was the one who ended up scrambling. Blah blah blah...so what changed that kept you from ranking him at all after all the initially positive feedback?

OP, its not just this program that didn't rank you. The rest didn't "rank you to match" either. You should try to figure out why (unless IM is your final goal, in which case, move on).

 

[ResidentMD]

I'm honestly surprised that no program names have come out thus far. Personally I would want to put the word out on programs that promise applicants a match and give them the shaft if this happened to me.

I actually logged on to post the same thing.

This is a disturbing thread. The circumstances described by the OP should lead to the PD getting fired. However, we all know that isn't going to happen.

The issue for the OP is fellowship selection. If he wants a fellowship, it would be nice to know if there was something that scared them off at the last minute. My approach would be to have a IM attending mentor call the PD and ask what happened. I would approach it with something like, "I was really surprised when IMtern had to scramble. He was so pleased to get invited back for a second interview at your program and I just figured that had to be a good sign. I was way more worried about a couple of my other students and then he was the one who ended up scrambling. Blah blah blah...so what changed that kept you from ranking him at all after all the initially positive feedback?

OP, its not just this program that didn't rank you. The rest didn't "rank you to match" either. You should try to figure out why (unless IM is your final goal, in which case, move on).

Agreed . Actually if you are on good terms with your chairman, you should talk to your chairman about this and see if he is willing to call and say the same things as above. That way that PD will know not to play games with any of the chairman's students anymore, and really knows his reputation in academic circles is on the line.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

This is a disturbing thread. The circumstances described by the OP should lead to the PD getting fired. However, we all know that isn't going to happen.

Unforunately, this is true... my putting out the name of the malignant lying PD I personally came in contact with would help nothing. It would be hearsay, it would not really affect their applicant pool for 2011, and most of all this individual would not feel shame, so what's the point?

Best not to sacrifice our professionalism and sink to their level.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I actually logged on to post the same thing.


Agreed . Actually if you are on good terms with your chairman, you should talk to your chairman about this and see if he is willing to call and say the same things as above. That way that PD will know not to play games with any of the chairman's students anymore, and really knows his reputation in academic circles is on the line.

I know I voted not to contact the PD because they'd probably just lie anyway, but I actually think this is a great idea. You can (hopefully) get the information you need, and the PD should (hopefully) know better than to **** around with the chair.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with gastrapathy and residentMD. I don't think I'd try to contact the PD yourself...better perhaps to let sleeping dogs lie, since it sounds like you have to train in the same geographic area. If you are thinking of doing fellowship in the future, maybe you should try and find out if there was a particular problem in your application. Not matching after ranking 8 IM programs probably means there is some sort of problem...but if this is California or Chicago or something, I could see how it could happen.

This should serve as a word of warning to other applicants in the Match...people are unscrupulous...don't believe anything anyone tells you.

 

[Speculatrix]

Unforunately, this is true... my putting out the name of the malignant lying PD I personally came in contact with would help nothing. It would be hearsay, it would not really affect their applicant pool for 2011, and most of all this individual would not feel shame, so what's the point?

Best not to sacrifice our professionalism and sink to their level.

It's not sacrificing your professionalism at all. Covering up for people who have committed despicable crimes against one of your brethren? Don't do that. This information is USEFUL for others, because people can look back and say "oh, the same thing happened, and this is what happened with people who responded a certain way", especially at my school. If I hadn't known (from SDN) that I'd likely get some sort of communique from *this program*, and to take that with a grain of salt, then I might have been screwed.

It's very helpful information. Hearsay? I don't think so. Anecdote? Maybe, but certainly allowable. On SDN, "Anecdote" has earned some unknown company ExamKrackers a total fortune, and told people to eschew Exam Master / Kaplan for UWorld. Hearsay may be all we have to get important information like this.

If you're uncomfortable with spelling out full names, then do what I did in several of the IM threads, use initials. Ex: "LB at Penn said she would give me a pony if I ranked her #1"*

*not a real example

I think this information does need to go up so that people are held accountable, at least to some extent. And the issue of shame? Do you really think they will feel shame based on this? I don't really think so - you are a cog in their wheel, and they eff'd you over. When individuals are reported as "match violators", the punishment is often being BANNED from the match for a while (or forever). The worst punishment the NRMP has doled out on a program (so far as I can see) is "this program will be marked as a match violator for n years" -> that's it -> nothing else. No "you can't pick residents through the NRMP anymore", none of that. I'm not so sure that shame is part of the vocabulary of an evil PD, really. Plus, in contrast to ruining a co-resident's life? Anyway, there will never be a full shaming, because people will always play devil's advocate ("oh he was so nice to me! maybe you weren't AOA") posts that will counterbalance it. Nevertheless, I strongly feel the information needs to come out as soon as possible, especially with the IM programs.

 

[PirateHotel]

I would recommend against giving the name of the PD / program because you will be easily identified by the program. Best case scenario is they don't read SDN... Worst case is that you become 'black balled' and have trouble down the line.

Sure it satisfies curiosity to hear the name of the program director behaving this way, but we're only hearing one side of the story. Also, it could bring further harm to the OP.

 

[blanche]

Also, if there's one thing I've learned, it's to be wary of people "teaching" professionalism. Those that have it, live it, and teach by example. They don't give lectures on it. And those that have it don't need to use it as a blunt-force weapon, either.

this is SO true!!! amen.

 

[Guile]

It's not sacrificing your professionalism at all. Covering up for people who have committed despicable crimes against one of your brethren? Don't do that. This information is USEFUL for others, because people can look back and say "oh, the same thing happened, and this is what happened with people who responded a certain way", especially at my school. If I hadn't known (from SDN) that I'd likely get some sort of communique from *this program*, and to take that with a grain of salt, then I might have been screwed.

It's very helpful information. Hearsay? I don't think so. Anecdote? Maybe, but certainly allowable. On SDN, "Anecdote" has earned some unknown company ExamKrackers a total fortune, and told people to eschew Exam Master / Kaplan for UWorld. Hearsay may be all we have to get important information like this.

If you're uncomfortable with spelling out full names, then do what I did in several of the IM threads, use initials. Ex: "LB at Penn said she would give me a pony if I ranked her #1"*

*not a real example

I think this information does need to go up so that people are held accountable, at least to some extent. And the issue of shame? Do you really think they will feel shame based on this? I don't really think so - you are a cog in their wheel, and they eff'd you over. When individuals are reported as "match violators", the punishment is often being BANNED from the match for a while (or forever). The worst punishment the NRMP has doled out on a program (so far as I can see) is "this program will be marked as a match violator for n years" -> that's it -> nothing else. No "you can't pick residents through the NRMP anymore", none of that. I'm not so sure that shame is part of the vocabulary of an evil PD, really. Plus, in contrast to ruining a co-resident's life? Anyway, there will never be a full shaming, because people will always play devil's advocate ("oh he was so nice to me! maybe you weren't AOA") posts that will counterbalance it. Nevertheless, I strongly feel the information needs to come out as soon as possible, especially with the IM programs.

Agreed. This type of anecdotal information is important for future applicants. There's basically no way you'd be identified. If a PD said "see you in July, you're ranked to match" to you, then he probably said it to everyone. Posting the program name here will only help future applicants. How could it come back to you? "I can't believe you actually TOLD people that I was liar!"

 

[Winged Scapula]

Agreed. This type of anecdotal information is important for future applicants. There's basically no way you'd be identified. If a PD said "see you in July, you're ranked to match" to you, then he probably said it to everyone. Posting the program name here will only help future applicants. How could it come back to you? "I can't believe you actually TOLD people that I was liar!"

I disagree. There IS a way the OP can be found out and perhaps you underestimate the "Q rating" of SDN.

He has posted enough information about himself and his experience (outside of the PD telling him he'd "rank to match" that his identity could be ascertained with a fair degree of accuracy.

I agree with the other attendings that finding out why you weren't ranked might be useful, and that having your Chair call for you is the best option.