Was I straight up lied to?

[Buzz Me]

I disagree. There IS a way the OP can be found out and perhaps you underestimate the "Q rating" of SDN.

He has posted enough information about himself and his experience (outside of the PD telling him he'd "rank to match" that his identity could be ascertained with a fair degree of accuracy.

I agree with the other attendings that finding out why you weren't ranked might be useful, and that having your Chair call for you is the best option.

Agree with the above.

Never forget that there are many people in administration (med schools, residencies, etc.) who monitor these forums.

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[odieoh]

This is a disturbing thread. The circumstances described by the OP should lead to the PD getting fired. However, we all know that isn't going to happen.

Have to disagree here. What would be the basis for firing him? I agree that what happened to the OP really sucks, but there is definitely part of the story we are not hearing, and may never hear. Unless you are trying to portray this PD as the villain in a black suit and tophat, twisting his long greasy mustache while trying to think of ways to screw with applicants, he has done nothing that deserves being fired. He had to have been just doing what he thought best for the program.

I imagine it basically went down like this. OP applies, looks good on paper, interviews, does well in interview, gets along with everyone. Program and PD would like to have him. OP sends email, is offered second look. During second look OP makes some faux pas/says something that ticks off resident/secretary/janitor/whoever. PD may have not known about it until afterward. Even if PD did know about it that day, whats he gonna do at that point, look you in the eye and say "well you totally screwed yourself today, best of luck." No, hes going to be polite. Saying "see you in July" was probably a bit over the top and certainly misleading, but at that point in the game I can see how the PD would just want to continue the process as usual and deal with whatever the issue was by not ranking the OP. Or, as I said before, perhaps the PD didn't even know about the issue until later, in which case the "see you in July" was sincere.

Alternate scenario, OP has done something at his/her home program that ticked somebody off. That somebody knows somebody else at the program in question. Ticked off guy paints OP in a bad light, word travels through the grapevine, OP isn't ranked.

Probably whatever the OP did wasn't even that big of a deal. But, having been on both sides of the interview table and then in debates about where to rank people, its amazing the stupid little BS that gets people blackballed. One offhand comment can rub someone wrong and totally screw you, even if you meant it one way and it was interpreted another way. Either way, there was obviously some red flag that popped up and you can't say that the PD should be fired when he's just looking out for his program.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Either way, there was obviously some red flag that popped up and you can't say that the PD should be fired when he's just looking out for his program.

Obviously we don't know the whole story since the OP doesn't know the whole story, but I would disagree with the latter half of this statement. Looking out for your program doesn't mean you have to throw your integrity out the window. Regardless of what happened (if anything) to make the PD not rank the OP, he shouldn't have lied to him. Even if the OP doesn't post details, I imagine he will talk about it with his friends/coworkers at his new program. If the PD does this to enough applicants (which seems likely unless he has a personal vendetta against the OP), the reputation of the program will eventually suffer. And how is that looking out for the program?

The easiest solution would be for PDs not to make empty promises, but I recognize the futility of that wish. Barring that, if the applicant was promised a position and something came up to change that, it's only common decency to at least shoot them a quick email saying "Sorry, we're no longer able to promise you a position at our program, best of luck."

The most confusing part about all this is that it seems like most of the lying is so that applicants rank the program high and they don't have to go that far down the rank list, but clearly that wasn't even a consideration in this case. It almost seems spiteful.

 

[Guile]

I disagree. There IS a way the OP can be found out and perhaps you underestimate the "Q rating" of SDN.

He has posted enough information about himself and his experience (outside of the PD telling him he'd "rank to match" that his identity could be ascertained with a fair degree of accuracy.

I agree with the other attendings that finding out why you weren't ranked might be useful, and that having your Chair call for you is the best option.

You're right. The OP has revealed quite a bit about himself. But it seems there are other people in this thread who have been similarly burned by PDs who haven't revealed much about their situation. I guess I'm just surprised that this amount of cloak and dagger goes on during the match process, which is unfortunate.

 

[odieoh]

Obviously we don't know the whole story since the OP doesn't know the whole story, but I would disagree with the latter half of this statement. Looking out for your program doesn't mean you have to throw your integrity out the window. Regardless of what happened (if anything) to make the PD not rank the OP, he shouldn't have lied to him. Even if the OP doesn't post details, I imagine he will talk about it with his friends/coworkers at his new program. If the PD does this to enough applicants (which seems likely unless he has a personal vendetta against the OP), the reputation of the program will eventually suffer. And how is that looking out for the program?

The easiest solution would be for PDs not to make empty promises, but I recognize the futility of that wish. Barring that, if the applicant was promised a position and something came up to change that, it's only common decency to at least shoot them a quick email saying "Sorry, we're no longer able to promise you a position at our program, best of luck."

The most confusing part about all this is that it seems like most of the lying is so that applicants rank the program high and they don't have to go that far down the rank list, but clearly that wasn't even a consideration in this case. It almost seems spiteful.

Why does everyone assume that the PD was lying? As I pointed out there are several scenarios in which the red flag could have come to his attention AFTER the interview and second visit, in which case his statements would have been sincere. In that case, should he send an email saying the OP would no longer be ranked? I don't think so. Lets flip the situation. Lets say an applicant interviews somewhere and likes the place and feels good about it. At the end of the interview he has a conversation similar to the OP where they both promise to rank each other highly. After the interview the applicant finds out some nasty things about the program and no longer wants to rank it. Should he send them an email saying "I'm sorry, you will no longer be on my rank list?" No. What would be the point? You aren't going to mess up their rank list by not ranking them- it has no effect whatsoever on their outcome with other applicants. All you are going to do is burn bridges you may need in the future. Likewise, the PD in question is not harming the OP's chances at other programs by not telling him he isn't being ranked. Even though he ranked them first, his chances at the other programs are unaffected.

People seem to want to make this an issue of "integrity" and "professionalism." I don't see it that way, and I don't see people expecting those in other fields to behave the way they seem to expect those in the match to behave. The match process is pretty much like a job interview in any other field. During job interviews employers often see things they don't like about applicants. No one sees it as being compromised integrity if they don't point out an applicant's weaknesses and tell them straight up "there's no way in hell you are getting this job." And if an employer initially liked an applicant and told him he would have a great shot at the job, then later found out something unsavory about the applicant, we wouldn't really expect him to call the applicant and say "hey you're not getting this job, and here's why." He would give the job to someone else and that would be the end of it.

Granted, there is a lot of schmooze talk during the match with all the statements like "ranked to match," "high on our list," etc etc etc. But, the schmooze comes from BOTH sides of the table, applicants dish it out just as much as PD's do, and no one seems to rag on the applicants who tell EVERY single program they interview at that they will rank them highly. If you are naive enough to hang your hat on any of the schmooze PD's dish out, well probably no advice is going to help.

The big issue in the OP's case is that he was blindsided by it all, and its understandable that he is disappointed and hurt by it and wants to know why. But there are several reasonable scenarios where the PD isn't the bad guy people are making him out to be.

 

[peppy]

I think this information does need to go up so that people are held accountable, at least to some extent.

Maybe next interview season you or someone else who is concerned can volunteer to receive info by private message on what kind of feedback people are receiving from programs and then notify the board when it looks like a certain program is saying the same exact thing to every candidate. That reduces the likelihood of someone being identified by a program and getting into trouble - since if they are saying the same thing to everyone, they won't be able to pick out who blew the whistle.

I do agree that this info is useful. After a few of us going into the same specialty compared notes, we discovered that a certain program seems to be pretty shameless about telling everybody who interviews with them the same thing about their ranking.
Even though we all are told not to put any faith into what a PD says, it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking that it's "different this time" when a program you really like is telling you what you want to hear. Even though this kind of game playing may not be unique to medicine, I think it is more hurtful and damaging here since it is so difficult to change residencies compared to changing jobs in other fields.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

To aPD:

A lot of program directors do the so-called "courtesy interview" for students who rotate at a program or who attended the medical school. I wonder, however, if this is a good idea, particularly at competitive programs. Medical students can only tell one program "You're my number one," unless they're willing to lie, so it doesn't help students much to go on an interview at an awesome program that they can't realistically attain. In fact, it might prevent them from getting their number two spot, since they can't promise to rank the program highest. While granting an interview might seem polite, it might actually be doing the student a favor to be denied an interview, even if it causes some hurt feelings initially.

Any thoughts?

I think that interviewing a person who has NO chance doesn't help anyone, and I wouldn't do that.

The question is, if someone has a 50% chance of being ranked, or a 10% chance, would they want an interview?

The whole "You're my number 1" doesn't mean much to me. In IM, where many programs are quite large, I don't think it matters much. It prob matters much more in programs with only a small number of slots.

There is much comment about the statement "We would love to see you here next year". This statement is meaningless, yet applicants tend to read much into it. Which is part of the problem -- applicants tend to read much into lots that gets said and done. Although there are some PD's out there who probably lie, most probably don't. Applicants have a tendancy to overread what is said. I want to be positive with both those at the top and bottom of my list, because should they match with me "I would love to work with them". No one wants to hear "I've put you on the bottom of my list, I'd rather have you than end up in the scramble".

As for those who are not listed at all, this is difficult. It's tempting to tell people that we're interested in them, not rank them, and then simply not match them -- and tell them "It was a tough year, and we simply didn't get you". I admit this is a cop-out, and I don't do it. I don't volunteer that I am not ranking someone. If someone sends me a "love note" that I am not ranking, I usually simply reply "Thanks for the note, and good luck in the match" -- but I can imagine people reading good news into that also.

 

[odieoh]

Maybe next interview season you or someone else who is concerned can volunteer to receive info by private message on what kind of feedback people are receiving from programs and then notify the board when it looks like a certain program is saying the same exact thing to every candidate. That reduces the likelihood of someone being identified by a program and getting into trouble - since if they are saying the same thing to everyone, they won't be able to pick out who blew the whistle.

I do agree that this info is useful. After a few of us going into the same specialty compared notes, we discovered that a certain program seems to be pretty shameless about telling everybody who interviews with them the same thing about their ranking.
Even though we all are told not to put any faith into what a PD says, it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking that it's "different this time" when a program you really like is telling you what you want to hear. Even though this kind of game playing may not be unique to medicine, I think it is more hurtful and damaging here since it is so difficult to change residencies compared to changing jobs in other fields.

I still just don't understand this mentality. HOW is it useful to you? Are you really making your rank list based on how much the PD kissed your a**? And then changing it again because you found out that everyone else got the same number of kisses as you? You should be making your list based SOLELY on how much you liked the program and how much you want to go there. Everything else is completely irrelevant.

 

[peppy]

You should be making your list based SOLELY on how much you liked the program and how much you want to go there. Everything else is completely irrelevant.

Yes, exactly. I think the problem though is that a LOT of candidates engage in wishful thinking and think that when they get some encouraging comment from their favorite program it's an exception. I think it is useful for applicants to find out that certain programs like to tell everyone that interviews there the same BS as a reality check and a reminder not to be influenced by the meaningless praise.

In my case, I appreciated having the knowledge to know NOT to think anything of it when a certain PD told me the exact same words at my interview that I had already heard about him telling others. That saved me from getting overly excited about it.

Just like PDs often want residents who are excited about being at their program and want to be there, I think many applicants ARE influenced by it if they think a program takes a special interest in them as an individual. If people weren't affected by those words I dont think most programs would bother to say anything.

 

[MrBelvedere]

Here's what I gather:
Interviewed at 8 places...no match.
Seems other places had you pegged as well.
Look inside yourself...then move on.
People can be deceitful but something juiced the others as well.
Fuggettabouddit and MOVE ON!

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I still just don't understand this mentality. HOW is it useful to you? Are you really making your rank list based on how much the PD kissed your a**? And then changing it again because you found out that everyone else got the same number of kisses as you? You should be making your list based SOLELY on how much you liked the program and how much you want to go there. Everything else is completely irrelevant.

All that is true, but the OP's feelings of hurt/betrayal are still valid. Perhaps the PD found a red flag late in the process, but more likely he was simply lying, the way the PD at my #1 did. He was sending me encouraging emails up to the week of the match-list deadline.

By contrast, my #2 did not bother to follow up with me after the interview, they gave me no encouragement whatsoever, so I wasn't hurt at all. (I had bombed that interview like Hiroshima and had expected not to be ranked by them). That's the rational way of doing things if you don't like a candidate.

 

[Speculatrix]

I disagree. There IS a way the OP can be found out and perhaps you underestimate the "Q rating" of SDN.

He has posted enough information about himself and his experience (outside of the PD telling him he'd "rank to match" that his identity could be ascertained with a fair degree of accuracy.

I agree with the other attendings that finding out why you weren't ranked might be useful, and that having your Chair call for you is the best option.

If you post that much information about yourself, shouldn't you be willing to be ok with the fact that some people can guess who you are? If it's the a ss hole program director, then clearly he deserves to be seen as a Class A Douche.

For the record, your Q sense is probably a lot hotter than mine ever could be... I can't piece anything together from "solid academics w/ good fellowship placements" and the rest sound like community-ish low-key programs. The rest based on limited geographic diversity? I'm looking at the unfilled list and I can't seem to piece it together. There's one hospital that's glaringly "different" in that unfilled positions list... and a few others that could be good hospitals with good fellowship placement, like Methodist Hosp in Houston.

 

[eforest]

This situation described by the OP is a little different from the standard, "I look forward to working with you..." followed by not matching at that program.

The OP wasn't ranked at all by the program and then couldn't scramble into an empty spot there. It wasn't that the PD gave the person a low rank- he it sounds like he didn't want the OP in his program and was actively avoiding this prospect.

I feel like there's something missing from the story. OP- did you talk to the dean of your medical school about why he/she thinks you didn't match?

 

[Instatewaiter]

People seem to want to make this an issue of "integrity" and "professionalism." I don't see it that way, and I don't see people expecting those in other fields to behave the way they seem to expect those in the match to behave. The match process is pretty much like a job interview in any other field. During job interviews employers often see things they don't like about applicants. No one sees it as being compromised integrity if they don't point out an applicant's weaknesses and tell them straight up "there's no way in hell you are getting this job." And if an employer initially liked an applicant and told him he would have a great shot at the job, then later found out something unsavory about the applicant, we wouldn't really expect him to call the applicant and say "hey you're not getting this job, and here's why." He would give the job to someone else and that would be the end of it.

Other fields are different. If you get a job offer, you have the option to say no. Not in the match. And if you don't get that first job, you are not going to be FORCED to take the next offer as you are in the match.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. It is about professionalism. I could understand if the program told the OP they'd love to see him but never got to him on their list. That is fine and things happen that the PD can't foresee.
However, they didn't even rank him. They didn't want him like they told him to his face. That is unprofessional and wrong. Unless he stabbed someone or was found guilty of cheating during school and didn't disclose that, the PD owes him an apology.

Still, other programs also didn't rank him so there must have been something there that the programs worried about.

 

[cali-ob]

The real issue is medical students aren't told to be wary during interview season. They aren't told anything. Think about this: remember medical school interviews? They were so scary, no one was overly friendly and you got no promises at the end (at least I didn't). You felt like you were making your case as to why they should select you. This is what you expect.
Fastforward four years to residency interviews. You are ready for the tough questions and the stressful lunches etc. But something different happens. Everyone is NICE. They seem hell bent on convincing YOU of why you want THEM. It's totally opposite from what you are used to. You are being recruited. Then they end it all with a " we'd love to have you". THEN, you get an email from the cheif resident, a follow up phone call from the PD or a card in the mail or whatever. "you're ranked to match" "look forward to seeing you in July" I've even heard, "if you want us, you will definitely match here". Then match day comes and either 1. You go down to your number 2, or 3, or whatever, OR 2. You don't match.

Clearly both are upsetting and a slap in the face, but you can see how option #2 would be devastating. Maybe the PD doesn't deserve to be fired, but I think we can all agree that this is a situation that would catch any of us off guard and can feel for the OP and any other students that find themselves in this position.
I did. This exact situation. one place I ranked had done the whole song and dance (and they weren't even my first choice). I got the emails, the phone calls and the letters. We both ended up in the scramble and I didn't even get them on the phone.
I asked all of the faculty at my school, no one seemed to understand why I didn't match. My home program said, "we ranked you in the top 10 but we got our top 7 (they have 7 spots) and we just knew you'd have no trouble but figured you'd be trying to go back home and are so surprised this happened". They even made phone calls on my behalf to try and get me a spot somewhere. I contacted the PDs of all those other programs. No one bothered to be adult enough to offer some insight as to why I didn't match wtih them. I would like to believe that the OP would be more fortunate if he/she tried to inquire, but lets face it, people are cowards. There may be no "red flags" in your application. Maybe like dragonfly mentioned, the OP applied too narrowly (ie california).

I'm happy you got a spot, it probably all worked out the way it was supposed to, and who knows what kind of horrible experience you have avoided by not matching at that program. It will take time to heal, but you will be able to move on from this one day.

 

[odieoh]

Other fields are different. If you get a job offer, you have the option to say no. Not in the match. And if you don't get that first job, you are not going to be FORCED to take the next offer as you are in the match.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. It is about professionalism. I could understand if the program told the OP they'd love to see him but never got to him on their list. That is fine and things happen that the PD can't foresee.
However, they didn't even rank him. They didn't want him like they told him to his face. That is unprofessional and wrong. Unless he stabbed someone or was found guilty of cheating during school and didn't disclose that, the PD owes him an apology.

Still, other programs also didn't rank him so there must have been something there that the programs worried about.

I disagree. Sometimes the most professional thing you can do is keep your mouth shut and that may be why the PD in this case has been silent. There is still some big red flag we don't know about in this case, and many of the almost infinite possible red flags would be very difficult to openly address. Lets say the OP made a comment during the second visit that someone at the program interpreted as being racist, or said/did something that someone interpreted as a sexual advance. Even if the PD knew that the OP didn't intend said comment that way, if someone in the program had strong feelings to the contrary, the PD would basically be forced to leave the OP off the rank list.

And at that point you are saying that the PD really owes the OP an apology and a full explanation? How would that email/phonecall go down? "Dear OP-
Because of your unwanted sexual advances/ racial biases, we are no longer going to rank you. Thanks for playing." Hell no, the PD is just going to take the guy off the list and keep quiet. Outright accusing the OP of something nasty and of subjective interpretation would just open up a whole new can of worms, including possible lawsuits. Honestly I think its kind of funny how up in arms people get without knowing the full story. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!

 

[Llenroc]

People lie all the time in medicine. Hell in the past day, I probably had at least 3-4 different consultants say that they would be by to see various patients that day, of which none delivered on. These ****ers actually have to confront me eventually and get called out on their BS. Weasely program directors answer to no one.

 

[notinkansas]

When I was going though the match for gen surg, I did an elective at a program I was interested in (i believe it was in oct). I made it known to that PD that I was interested and I had submitted my application materials on the earliest possible date. Despite two glowing LOR from that rotation, that PD told me on exit interview that he didn't think I would do well at that program and that I he didn't think it would be fair to waste my time bringing me back for formal interview during interview season. I was pretty surprised, but at least he was honest with me and didn't waste my time.

I understand the desire for OP to find out what the problem was at #1 choice program. We've already established that PD lied. What are the odds s/he will tell the truth in answering such a question? I think I vote for letting it go. If there was a late red flag, 3 or more years of residency, with good work will likely negate that.

 

[odieoh]

We've already established that PD lied.

. . .Pulls hair out

 

[ResidentMD]

When I was going though the match for gen surg, I did an elective at a program I was interested in (i believe it was in oct). I made it known to that PD that I was interested and I had submitted my application materials on the earliest possible date. Despite two glowing LOR from that rotation, that PD told me on exit interview that he didn't think I would do well at that program and that I he didn't think it would be fair to waste my time bringing me back for formal interview during interview season. I was pretty surprised, but at least he was honest with me and didn't waste my time.

I understand the desire for OP to find out what the problem was at #1 choice program. We've already established that PD lied. What are the odds s/he will tell the truth in answering such a question? I think I vote for letting it go. If there was a late red flag, 3 or more years of residency, with good work will likely negate that.

Significant if the OP's chairman calls the PD. Lets get the thread back to suggestions, rather than fighting about whether it was ethical or not....
(Not meant for the poster who I am quoting, but for the discussion that occurred before that).

 

[IMtern]

I decided to move on and put it behind me. I have no red flags unless being a mom is considered a red flag. That is why I am geographically restricted, for my kids and my husband's job. Well at least I was. Now we have to think about what we are going to do about uprooting everything to a new place. If there was something concerning they wouldn't have invited me to interview in the first place. That is why I have trouble understanding why I didn't get ranked by my number #1, not even at the bottom of the list when promised to be ranked at the top of their list. If it was something that put them off during the second look then so be it. I was polite to everybody and was myself and didn't put on an act for them. So it might be a blessing in disguise that I didn't match there because if a PD will lie to you as an applicant who knows how he will treat you as a resident. If it was the residents who went and tattled to the PD not to rank me well then it's best that I don't have to work with them. Imagine how I would get treated as their intern once the pleasant act they put on during interviews and second looks disappears when they became my superiors.

I'm not going to call or ask anybody to call for me because any reason they might give doesn't matter or can be trusted as somebody pointed out. But this has made me less trusting of people in this profession. People who one minute talk about professionalism and the next do the opposite. "Actions speak louder than words" has a whole new meaning for me. Now I sympathize with those poor students who go unmatched or those residents who do match and then get dismissed. Because now I know it's not always their fault but there will always be people who will place the blame on the person who has been affected as some people on this thread have done. I have also learned how much your stock falls when you go unmatched. I had never been treated so rudely or ignored when days before I was getting promised the world and receiving unsolicited praise. Anyway I'm going to do my residency and maybe do a fellowship that will maximize the time I get to be with my family who have been through so much already and who I love more than any career.

 

[odieoh]

Significant if the OP's chairman calls the PD. Lets get the thread back to suggestions, rather than fighting about whether it was ethical or not....
(Not meant for the poster who I am quoting, but for the discussion that occurred before that).

Sorry I was under the impression this site was a place for the exchange of ideas and opinions, sometimes including healthy debate.

 

[ResidentMD]

Sorry I was under the impression this site was a place for the exchange of ideas and opinions, sometimes including healthy debate.

It is...except when a thread is hijacked.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

So it might be a blessing in disguise that I didn't match there because if a PD will lie to you as an applicant who knows how he will treat you as a resident.

This is exactly right. Sorry about having to uproot your family, but at least you won't be serving under an ethically bankrupt PD. (nor will I, thank God.)

 

[michaelrack]

But this has made me less trusting of people in this profession. People who one minute talk about professionalism and the next do the opposite. "Actions speak louder than words" has a whole new meaning for me. .

welcome to the world of medicine. It's too bad you became cynical so soon; it takes most of us a few weeks of residency until we feel that way.

 

[IMtern]

welcome to the world of medicine. It's too bad you became cynical so soon; it takes most of us a few weeks of residency until we feel that way.

I never had much of a reason to sound so cynical and I hope I don't turn cynical because of this experience or during residency. I know it's easier said than done. Whenever I encountered a doctor who treated me poorly I reminded myself that it's not me, it's them. I had done nothing to deserve being treated as they were treating me. The only thing I could do was promise myself that I wouldn't treat others like that. That is why I believed the promises I was getting despite being told not to believe anything anybody tells you during or after interviews. I thought people who said that were themselves cynical and distrustful. Now having been through it I realize they were speaking from the experience of having been duped as well. I was also surprised how quick some people are to make assumptions and unfounded accusations against the student to discredit them (those nebulous "red flags"). But I shouldn't be surprised because that is how we are trained to think: the med student knows less than nothing, the intern knows nothing, the resident knows a little more than nothing, the attending is righteous and knows all. Anyway I am getting too old and have too many responsibilites as a parent and spouse to play these silly immature games. At the end of the day I just want to take care of my patients and go home to my family because unlike for some people this career isn't the be all and end all of what defines me.

 

[Hassler]

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. That's horrible that you got completely played by the PD. Not only did he invite you for a second look, but then proceeded to indicate you have a chance, then completely not ranked you. If he didn't like you, why not just simply say good luck in the match? He doesn't benefit at all to have you do second look and rank them high if he doesn't rank you. I'm glad you scrambled into a program of your specialty of choice. Good luck to you.

By the way, why do some programs only rank 50% of candidates they interview? Do they really think the other 50% are worse than the people who need to scramble? Why don't they just rank everybody who is acceptable and doesn't have red flags?

 

[odieoh]

I never had much of a reason to sound so cynical and I hope I don't turn cynical because of this experience or during residency. I know it's easier said than done. Whenever I encountered a doctor who treated me poorly I reminded myself that it's not me, it's them. I had done nothing to deserve being treated as they were treating me. The only thing I could do was promise myself that I wouldn't treat others like that. That is why I believed the promises I was getting despite being told not to believe anything anybody tells you during or after interviews. I thought people who said that were themselves cynical and distrustful. Now having been through it I realize they were speaking from the experience of having been duped as well. I was also surprised how quick some people are to make assumptions and unfounded accusations against the student to discredit them (those nebulous "red flags"). But I shouldn't be surprised because that is how we are trained to think: the med student knows less than nothing, the intern knows nothing, the resident knows a little more than nothing, the attending is righteous and knows all. Anyway I am getting too old and have too many responsibilites as a parent and spouse to play these silly immature games. At the end of the day I just want to take care of my patients and go home to my family because unlike for some people this career isn't the be all and end all of what defines me.

Imtern-

I hope you didn't interpret my posts as attacking you personally. The same way you were surprised at how people jumped to conclusions about you, I was surprised the way people jumped to conclusions about the PD. My main point on this thread is that there are 2 sides to this story and we only know one. The PD in question had SOME motivation for doing what he did, and I really doubt that motivation was just pure evil and cruelty and the desire to do you harm, the way some people are implying. My posts were giving purely theoretical scenarios that could explain why things happened the way they did. I in no way meant to imply that you did anything horrendous to deserve what happened. At the same time I think its safe to say there was some kind of red flag triggered for the PD, whether real or only perceived. Nebulous is a pretty good descriptor actually. Your situation is unfortunate and I understand how you would be hurt and I wish you the best in your new residency.

To ResidentMD, I don't think its hijacking the thread to point out where people might be wrong in assuming that the PD in question is the devil incarnate. It seems pretty relevant to the discussion.

 

[Rabbit Hole]

The only thing I can think of that stuck out was one of the 3rd year residents asked me where else I had interviewed. Then she began bad mouthing one of the places I mentioned. Saying stuff like it was a crappy program, mentioning some of the attendings there and how bad they were, and other stuff to diss the place. That place was actually my #2 choice but I didn't say that. I just listed a few places where I interviewed and she jumped all over that one. I neither joined in the criticizing of that program or defended it, just played it off and kind of changed the subject.

It's possible that this resident didn't like you and told the PD not to rank you. Whether you had anything to do with it or not.. who knows.

One thing is for sure, something significant must have come about before the ROL was submitted and they decided not to rank you. I wouldn't blame the PD entirely, I don't think they would waste that much time interviewing you if they weren't interested. Also, I think something is missing from this story from your part. Sometimes people do and say things that they don't think is a big deal.. but it could be a big deal for someone else. A faux pas?

In any case, it doesn't really matter now. You have a job and I'm confident you will do great.

 

[dragonfly99]

Perhaps some of the programs didn't want an applicant with kids (who is female). As a female applicant to cardiology programs, I was asked at several programs whether I had kids, had a spouse or fiance, etc. Some programs even wanted me to list the number of kids I had (zero, plus no spouse, which probably made them happy). Also, perhaps she did rub someone the wrong way, but I think the match is just getting tighter in recent years, and for people who are geographically limited that would make things even harder, particularly if the person doesn't have particular things to make his/her application stand out.

It seems like the OP is likely to be more happy where she ended up going. If the OP wants to specialize, there are several IM specialties that have pretty good hourse - endocrine, rheumatology, allergy/immuno all come to mind.

 

[lanzarlaluna]

As a female applicant to cardiology programs, I was asked at several programs whether I had kids, had a spouse or fiance, etc. Some programs even wanted me to list the number of kids I had (zero, plus no spouse, which probably made them happy).

I love how discrimination laws seem to have never made it around to medicine...

 

[turquoiseblue]

Lies are not nice.

Isn't there an NRMP rule that states that you're not supposed to tell them if you'll rank them and they're not supposed to tell you they'll rank you either?

I wonder if second looks may do something to throw them off to think you may not want to go there as you are still investigating?

Hope you like your scrambled spot! I feel that it really doesn't matter where you do residency because in the end you'll get to do the same thing as anyone else in a 'better' program.

Plus if someone at that program lied and there was a 'bad mouth' resident, maybe it was for the best that you didn't end up there.

Good luck!

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Anyway I'm going to do my residency and maybe do a fellowship that will maximize the time I get to be with my family who have been through so much already and who I love more than any career.

I would bet that the PD had the sense that you would put your family first, which is perfectly reasonable but a turnoff to him/her. You may have made a point in your interview that career/family balance was an issue for you but he/she was looking for a workaholic. Be glad you didn't go there.

 

[bluealiendoctor]

I would bet that the PD had the sense that you would put your family first, which is perfectly reasonable but a turnoff to him/her. You may have made a point in your interview that career/family balance was an issue for you but he/she was looking for a workaholic. Be glad you didn't go there.

Too late now, but I think it would've been interesting to have written an email to the PD after seeing you didn't match saying, "I just wanted to apologize for not ranking your program as I see you have unfilled spots. After careful consideration I decided your program just wasn't the best fit for me. Again, thank you for the interview and best of luck to you''.

 

[Guile]

I think I'm going to take away two things from this conversation: 1) people will lie to your face, even at this stage in our careers, so you can't take much to the bank and 2) don't go to second visits, as it just gives them more opportunity to find a reason not to like you.

 

[gutonc]

Isn't there an NRMP rule that states that you're not supposed to tell them if you'll rank them and they're not supposed to tell you they'll rank you either?

Other way around. You can tell them (and they can tell you) anything you want. You can't ask them (nor can they ask you) where you are on their rank list.

 

[sugardad]

I love how discrimination laws seem to have never made it around to medicine...

Realistically, how can it be enforced? the program does not have to give a reason for not ranking you they can just say you were not a good "fit". And how will you prove that they ever asked that question.

 

[alphaholic06]

I think I'm going to take away two things from this conversation: 1) people will lie to your face, even at this stage in our careers, so you can't take much to the bank and 2) don't go to second visits, as it just gives them more opportunity to find a reason not to like you.

By this logic you shouldn't do away rotations either.

 

[Guile]

By this logic you shouldn't do away rotations either.

I'm not. I've been advised by many people including my dean not to do them unless you have a geographic restriction or absolutely must go to a certain program and you want to roll the dice by doing an away.

 

[odieoh]

I think I'm going to take away two things from this conversation: 1) people will lie to your face, even at this stage in our careers, so you can't take much to the bank and 2) don't go to second visits, as it just gives them more opportunity to find a reason not to like you.

Honestly I'd have to agree. Even during the first interview, for 90% of the applicants you can do nothing but hurt yourself. Sure there are a few super charismatic individuals whose personality can shine on interview day and change their ranking on the match list. For the rest its a matter of surviving and coming across as a normal human being and not saying/doing something that is going to rub someone wrong at the program. A second visit gives you double the chance to do just that. On the other hand if there is a program you are really interested and they OFFER you a second visit, would be hard to say no without worrying that they would perceive it as a lack of interest.

 

[ResidentMD]

Honestly I'd have to agree. Even during the first interview, for 90% of the applicants you can do nothing but hurt yourself. Sure there are a few super charismatic individuals whose personality can shine on interview day and change their ranking on the match list. For the rest its a matter of surviving and coming across as a normal human being and not saying/doing something that is going to rub someone wrong at the program. A second visit gives you double the chance to do just that. On the other hand if there is a program you are really interested and they OFFER you a second visit, would be hard to say no without worrying that they would perceive it as a lack of interest.

In complete agreement with whatever has been said above

However, I also wonder as a borderline candidate (i.e. someone who is ranked, say 150 on the programs ROL), then going for a second look and trying to convey your "interest" and charisma (whatever it may be) may work. I know all programs "say" second looks dont make a difference, but I always wonder if a borderline candidate can ignore this.

 

[odieoh]

In complete agreement with whatever has been said above

However, I also wonder as a borderline candidate (i.e. someone who is ranked, say 150 on the programs ROL), then going for a second look and trying to convey your "interest" and charisma (whatever it may be) may work. I know all programs "say" second looks dont make a difference, but I always wonder if a borderline candidate can ignore this.

Yeah that's true, I suppose you could impress the program by showing more interest via a second look. You just run the risk of slipping up. Double edged sword I guess.

 

[DigableCat]

Agree with the above.

Never forget that there are many people in administration (med schools, residencies, etc.) who monitor these forums.

Well...that's a little unsettling... Monitor?

Is there a need for people to monitor us? Seems a bit disingenuous for joining to me...

 

[GoLytely]

OP, sorry to hear your frustrating story, but I'd be willing to bet it was the kids and family-first situation. Imagining yourself as a PD with dozens of single applicants ready to devote themselves fully to the hospital, it would be hard to picture taking someone with what amounts to almost a second full-time job (raising children).

 

[ForbiddenComma]

OP, sorry to hear your frustrating story, but I'd be willing to bet it was the kids and family-first situation. Imagining yourself as a PD with dozens of single applicants ready to devote themselves fully to the hospital, it would be hard to picture taking someone with what amounts to almost a second full-time job (raising children).

Yet somehow I would wager that male applicants with wives and children don't get "mommy-tracked" in such a fashion.

 

[michaelrack]

Yet somehow I would wager that male applicants with wives and children don't get "mommy-tracked" in such a fashion.

That's because male applicants tend to make medicine a relatively higher priority as compared to female applicants.

 

[Chopsticks]

I do not think being a parent is the reason. It is not like OP had to confess she was a mom during the second visit. I am sure PD knew this before inviting her.

 

[Buzz Me]

Well...that's a little unsettling... Monitor?

Is there a need for people to monitor us? Seems a bit disingenuous for joining to me...

Big brother.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

That's because male applicants tend to make medicine a relatively higher priority as compared to female applicants.

Maybe, maybe not. But that is no reason to apply sweeping generalizations to an individual applicant. I personally know plenty of female classmates, with husbands or boyfriends, who are the most hardcore people you could find... and more than a few men who chose less-stressful specialties to accommodate their own families. Pigeonholing an applicant based on gender is just as loathsome as pigeonholing based on race.

 

[ResidentMD]

Maybe, maybe not. But that is no reason to apply sweeping generalizations to an individual applicant. I personally know plenty of female classmates, with husbands or boyfriends, who are the most hardcore people you could find... and more than a few men who chose less-stressful specialties to accommodate their own families. Pigeonholing an applicant based on gender is just as loathsome as pigeonholing based on race.